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♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2013, 07:11:01 pm »
I wonder how many tradders said that WFP wouldn't work.
Until they tried it.

Personally, I shall await Lee's findings.
As far as I know he has no vested interest so will be impartial.

We don't know, it may make us more money.
I'm up for that.

How will it make you more money?

Won't know till I've tried it.

WFP makes more money than trad.
Fibreglass poles more than ali
Carbon more than fibreglass
Hot water than cold
That's the thing-we don't know till we try...

Surely you can see the differences between your comparisons and a PPB v PPM system though?

I may be wrong, however, look at what I wrote previously. If in fact these systems are PROVEN to save enough time on cleaning, therefore earning you more money, provided you have the work to fill the time saved of course...

Now, let's for arguments sake say it saved you 30 minutes per day, at say what £30 per hour? So that's £15 extra you can earn, provided you have work to do of course, or you get home 30 mins earlier.

Cost of system? £10,000?

So Gould need to do 666.67 days do earn its money, based on 240 working days a year, it's nearly 3 years to make it pay for itself.

Aye & don't forget any additional filtration costs, replacement Ionic filters wont be cheap!! ;D

rosskesava

  • Posts: 17015
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2013, 07:14:39 pm »
When comparing trad to wfp, the differences and pro's and cons of each is easy to see and explain.

I've yet to hear or see or have it explained in practical terms how PPB does a better job than PPM. All it seems to come down to is the statement 'zero PPB is better than zero PPM'.

With WFP because obviously, the end result isn't known untill the glass is dry, how can you know when actually cleaning the glass and frames that a PPB system does a better job? If the tds of the water I use is zero PPM (which may well be less than 0 PPM anyway) or 10 tds, I still take the same time and the end result is clean glass for both.

Most of what affects how much money I make isn't PPM or PPB.

It's the weather, traffic, customers talking, how I feel, distance traveled between jobs, pricing, pole, brush, etc.

£10 000 just for the filtration to clean £10 or £20 a pop windows as opposed to my system at £450?


Just chant..... Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. It's beats chanting Tory Tory or Labour Labour.

CLEANCARE WC

  • Posts: 4454
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2013, 07:22:07 pm »
Haven't tried one, nor do I feel I need to.

You can only brush and rinse as fast your arms can go, and on maintenance cleans, one pass is all that's needed, so, nor needed for that.

One offs and infrequent cleans, you need to agitate the dirt, which then runs off the glass, leaving 000ppm on the glass. The water doesn't dissolve dirt, it merely is a vehicle to gather the dust etc and take it off the surface by rinsing. PPB water left in the glass will only result in the same finish if rinsed sufficiently.



X2 This what I think on the subject exactly.
WE CLEAN BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT WITH WATER FED POLE WHEN WORKING AT HEIGHT.

TheWindowManChris

  • Posts: 401
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2013, 07:25:10 pm »
To be honest with you all.

I must agree the kit will be as good as you look after it and how good the person using the kit!

concept

  • Posts: 1049
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2013, 07:27:44 pm »
I feel these systems are a step too far for what we need them for, possibly got its place for some other industries, just can't see it in ours.

Don't get me wrong, ionics systems are superbly engineered, and there is an argument for them, in so much as we are so busy, I can't devote time to messing about with issues on vans, and as far as I can see, and have seen, their systems are superb.

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2013, 07:30:06 pm »
I can clean windows just as fast with 90ppm (my tap) water as I can with 000PPM. The only difference is that the tap water leaves a few water marks. Dirt is removed just as fast, in fact there is absolutely ZERO difference at all between the two apart from water marks from the dissolved solids in the tap water.

The exact same applies when I wash the car or van- it isn't cleaned any faster or better with pure than tap, that's why I clean with tap but rinse with pure AND we live on a farm, our vehicles get proper filthy!!!!

The PBB concept could probably be argued at microscopic/laboratory level but in our field, in practice it will make no difference whatsoever, I don't even need to use one to make that statement- the marketing bollox here is actually intelligence insulting!!!!!! I've never heard such utter crap. ::)roll ::)roll

I've also spoken to Gaps Water & had the laugh at Ionics expense!! ;D ;D

CLEANCARE WC

  • Posts: 4454
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2013, 07:38:15 pm »
I hope they end up out of pocket for trying to mug people off.
WE CLEAN BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT WITH WATER FED POLE WHEN WORKING AT HEIGHT.

keyser soze

  • Posts: 1694
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2013, 07:49:42 pm »
not really looked into this ppb but obviously heard of it and its expense . one question though. what knocks it down to ppb ? is it the resin or are other things needed to get it down to ppb .

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2013, 08:04:51 pm »
I wonder how many tradders said that WFP wouldn't work.
Until they tried it.

Personally, I shall await Lee's findings.
As far as I know he has no vested interest so will be impartial.

We don't know, it may make us more money.
I'm up for that.

How will it make you more money?

Won't know till I've tried it.

WFP makes more money than trad.
Fibreglass poles more than ali
Carbon more than fibreglass
Hot water than cold
That's the thing-we don't know till we try...

Surely you can see the differences between your comparisons and a PPB v PPM system though?

I may be wrong, however, look at what I wrote previously. If in fact these systems are PROVEN to save enough time on cleaning, therefore earning you more money, provided you have the work to fill the time saved of course...

Now, let's for arguments sake say it saved you 30 minutes per day, at say what £30 per hour? So that's £15 extra you can earn, provided you have work to do of course, or you get home 30 mins earlier.

Cost of system? £10,000?

So Gould need to do 666.67 days do earn its money, based on 240 working days a year, it's nearly 3 years to make it pay for itself.

Agree entirely bud.
But this is now.
When PPM first came out-how much was it?
Who would have DIY'd?
How much were carbon poles?
Etc...


It's expensive now but if there's a demand it may come down.
I'm actually quite skeptical (of everything/one) about the PPB but reserve judgement until there is something more...I was gonna say concrete but that'll never happen...substantial than marketing to back up Ionic claims.
I've only recently jumped the ionic ship on poles so make of that what you will but their kit IMO is like Apple products. In all honesty not THAT much better/different but some people are prepared to pay the premium for what they want.
As I say though just MO.
Let's see what Lee has to say...
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

Darranvps

Re: PPB machines
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2013, 04:41:04 am »
Anyone who has one - can YOU comment as no point in this post otherwise

H2GoKent

  • Posts: 532
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2013, 06:30:19 am »
Anyone who has one - can YOU comment as no point in this post otherwise
No one who has purchased a system like this at some expense is going to come on here and admit that it's anything less than perfect are they.

I think it's a marketing idea personally.
A manager is generally someone who has been promoted to the position by someone else who didn't see them as a threat.
Hence all people are promoted to the level of their incompetence

H2GoKent

  • Posts: 532
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2013, 06:34:48 am »
That's what marketing does it creates a need to sell a product.
Strange example I know but think of tea bags, was it a customer who thought 'I wish they made these pyramid shaped or round' no, it was someone trying to sell more teabags.

Were there any windys thinking 'I wish my system was ppb instead of ppm'? No.
But once the hype has been built up then people will even if it makes no discernable difference.
A manager is generally someone who has been promoted to the position by someone else who didn't see them as a threat.
Hence all people are promoted to the level of their incompetence

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 26656
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2013, 07:29:30 am »
That's what marketing does it creates a need to sell a product.
Strange example I know but think of tea bags, was it a customer who thought 'I wish they made these pyramid shaped or round' no, it was someone trying to sell more teabags.

Were there any windys thinking 'I wish my system was ppb instead of ppm'? No.
But once the hype has been built up then people will even if it makes no discernable difference.

Good post!
It's a game of three halves!

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2013, 09:42:14 am »
OK - pay attention lads,.. below is PROOF of just how much better PPB systems are - there's math & everything, so it must be right.

My tap water is about 300ppm, my 1000 litre tank holds exactly 1 million grams of water, so in that tank, if it was tap water there would be 300grams of dissolved solids - - with me so far?

My RO & DI bring that reading to 000,.. but for the sake math, lets say my resin is getting old and its up to 001 - that'd be 1gram of dissolved solids in the 1000 litre tank. Not bad for a cheapo DIY job hey?!

If I were to upgrade to a PPB system, and it was working properly I could get that reading down to 0000,.. I could remove a whole extra gram of dissolved solids, thats the absolute best it could do, because there simply is no more dirt to take out of the water. No matter how good the system, it cannot get perfectly clean water any cleaner.

So PPM removes 299g
&   PPB removes 300g

See, it is better,.. a whole 0.33% performance increase - - thats worth all the extra investment isn't it? isn't it??

Pete Thompson

  • Posts: 982
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2013, 09:54:15 am »
Quote
That's what marketing does it creates a need to sell a product.

Yes but marketing hype can only take you so far.  Marketing creates INTEREST in a product, it does not create the need itself.  There was already a need for teabags before tetley brough out pyramid ones.

A while ago I needed a new laptop, I looked at all the usual suspects hp, dell, sony etc, but I also looked at apple becuase I'd heard their laptops are good, seen their marketing ads etc etc.  The marketing created an interest, it did not create the need.

When I saw that they were 3x the cost of other laptops I did wonder what was there about apple that could justify that price, maybe quality, maybe benefits, maybe features etc.  What I found was that people who like apple, REALLY love their products.  People who don't like them, just whinge about how they're overpriced and use clever marketing to reel gullible fools in.

So eventually I bit the bullet and got a MacBook Pro.  Within less than a day I understood why people love them, and the price is more than justified.  If I was asked to describe in detail what is better about MacBook than PC, I suppose it would be very hard because it's not just one or two things, its the whole product is better.  It makes things easier, is more reliable.

To an outsider, that wouldn't be enough to justify a price 3x as much as other products, but in my view Apple stuff is well worth the extra money.  Could a PC do all the same things for a third the cost?  Yes it probably could in all honesty, but I will NEVER ever have a pc again.  Once you've used a mac compared to a pc, you get it, but without using it I don't think you can.

I think it is very similar with Ionic stuff.  Yes they have good marketing etc, but that is only the start.  The 0ppb stuff, I honestly don't know what or if that makes any difference because I haven't tried it.  To hear people moaning from the sidelines about it reminds me of the apple haters who've never used a macbook it but still only complain about the price and the marketing.  What I do know is that ionic's gear is top notch quality and that takes them a long way.

I just bought new iPhones for me and the missus, even though much more expensive than the other phones purely because after the MacBook experience I know apple quality.  Never had iPhones before, but I'm not dissappointed, and I'll never get android again.  People said the fingerprint scanner was a marketing gimmick.  The Slo-Mo video camera was a marketing gimmick and unnessassary.  The dual colour flash was a marketing gimmick.  But the truth is, they are not gimmicks, they are genuine features that are good.  If someone had described them to me I wouldn't have got it.  But now I've used it I understand how useful these things are.

To me that's very like Ionic stuff.  People who have them love them and would never change, people who don't have them just whinge about them.  I don't need a new wfp system right now, but if I did I would be very happy to consider a 0 per billion from ionics because I know their systems are very good and it might be a benefit worth having, along with the other stuff that 0ppb system can do.  Maybe I've got to a stage in life where I've finally realised that price isn't everything and for stuff you need to last for years (like wfp systems) its worth paying more for better stuff.

Just my opinion, but at least I'm honest enough to say "I don't know because I've never used one", rather than be closed minded about it from the off.

BVC

  • Posts: 352
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2013, 10:57:09 am »
I hope they end up out of pocket for trying to mug people off.

Calm down tiger!!! You'll give yourself a hernia with that kind of talk. What next? A strongly worded letter? :o

concept

  • Posts: 1049
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2013, 11:28:59 am »
OK - pay attention lads,.. below is PROOF of just how much better PPB systems are - there's math & everything, so it must be right.

My tap water is about 300ppm, my 1000 litre tank holds exactly 1 million grams of water, so in that tank, if it was tap water there would be 300grams of dissolved solids - - with me so far?

My RO & DI bring that reading to 000,.. but for the sake math, lets say my resin is getting old and its up to 001 - that'd be 1gram of dissolved solids in the 1000 litre tank. Not bad for a cheapo DIY job hey?!

If I were to upgrade to a PPB system, and it was working properly I could get that reading down to 0000,.. I could remove a whole extra gram of dissolved solids, thats the absolute best it could do, because there simply is no more dirt to take out of the water. No matter how good the system, it cannot get perfectly clean water any cleaner.

So PPM removes 299g
&   PPB removes 300g

See, it is better,.. a whole 0.33% performance increase - - thats worth all the extra investment isn't it? isn't it??

Where do I sign up?!

 ;D

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 2019
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2013, 03:27:31 pm »
Quote
That's what marketing does it creates a need to sell a product.

Yes but marketing hype can only take you so far.  Marketing creates INTEREST in a product, it does not create the need itself.  There was already a need for teabags before tetley brough out pyramid ones.

A while ago I needed a new laptop, I looked at all the usual suspects hp, dell, sony etc, but I also looked at apple becuase I'd heard their laptops are good, seen their marketing ads etc etc.  The marketing created an interest, it did not create the need.

When I saw that they were 3x the cost of other laptops I did wonder what was there about apple that could justify that price, maybe quality, maybe benefits, maybe features etc.  What I found was that people who like apple, REALLY love their products.  People who don't like them, just whinge about how they're overpriced and use clever marketing to reel gullible fools in.

So eventually I bit the bullet and got a MacBook Pro.  Within less than a day I understood why people love them, and the price is more than justified.  If I was asked to describe in detail what is better about MacBook than PC, I suppose it would be very hard because it's not just one or two things, its the whole product is better.  It makes things easier, is more reliable.

To an outsider, that wouldn't be enough to justify a price 3x as much as other products, but in my view Apple stuff is well worth the extra money.  Could a PC do all the same things for a third the cost?  Yes it probably could in all honesty, but I will NEVER ever have a pc again.  Once you've used a mac compared to a pc, you get it, but without using it I don't think you can.

I think it is very similar with Ionic stuff.  Yes they have good marketing etc, but that is only the start.  The 0ppb stuff, I honestly don't know what or if that makes any difference because I haven't tried it.  To hear people moaning from the sidelines about it reminds me of the apple haters who've never used a macbook it but still only complain about the price and the marketing.  What I do know is that ionic's gear is top notch quality and that takes them a long way.

I just bought new iPhones for me and the missus, even though much more expensive than the other phones purely because after the MacBook experience I know apple quality.  Never had iPhones before, but I'm not dissappointed, and I'll never get android again.  People said the fingerprint scanner was a marketing gimmick.  The Slo-Mo video camera was a marketing gimmick and unnessassary.  The dual colour flash was a marketing gimmick.  But the truth is, they are not gimmicks, they are genuine features that are good.  If someone had described them to me I wouldn't have got it.  But now I've used it I understand how useful these things are.

To me that's very like Ionic stuff.  People who have them love them and would never change, people who don't have them just whinge about them.  I don't need a new wfp system right now, but if I did I would be very happy to consider a 0 per billion from ionics because I know their systems are very good and it might be a benefit worth having, along with the other stuff that 0ppb system can do.  Maybe I've got to a stage in life where I've finally realised that price isn't everything and for stuff you need to last for years (like wfp systems) its worth paying more for better stuff.

Just my opinion, but at least I'm honest enough to say "I don't know because I've never used one", rather than be closed minded about it from the off.

Totally agree with this , i have been a mac owner for 8 months now , i recently tried to use my old laptop and its like going back in time!

constant updates ,waiting to startup, slowdowns for no apparent reason etc etc , get none of that with a mac , it just works reliably and quickly.

Well worth the extra money.
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

Carl2009

  • Posts: 806
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2013, 05:04:30 pm »
Quote

I just bought new iPhones for me and the missus, even though much more expensive than the other phones purely because after the MacBook experience I know apple quality.  

Have a look at this - funny:
http://youtu.be/7bcryQUuDwM

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: PPB machines
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2013, 05:18:23 pm »
There is a little bit of difference between Apple & Ionics! ::)roll