[♠Winp®oClean♠]

Unless the unit is faulty (lots of people had trouble with MKII digi' varistreams) there is nothing problematic about a controller.

They only become problematic if you don't understand how they work! When you understand them, there is no issue- as you know why it's doing what it's doing & so make any appropriate adjustment. You have to understand how one works combined with YOUR particular set up too. How many times do we see the same questions on here- pump keeps stopping, red light on, green light on, P1 flashing, something else flashing etc etc. Once you understand what all these mean & why they happen hey-ho, no problem anymore.

No offence meant but Peter's comments reflect perfectly someone who doesn't understand fully electronic controllers & so has taken the unnecessary & backward step of using a bypass system- probably with a levered ball valve on it & pump running flat out, drawing max amps 100% of the time. There is absolutely no need to do this & unless you run with full flow all the time you'll be constantly running back to the van to adjust the ball valve as your pole goes higher & the flow drops etc.

I ran like that for 2 years 'cos I didn't know any better back then & that is what I was sold to begin with. Then I got a MKI digi' varistream & just couldn't believe what I'd been missing & how I'd managed without it. Exactly the same happened to a mate of mine too. The bypass system is a backward step for anyone IMO AND experience, It's a shame that seemingly, so many people do not grasp the understanding of their system & controller as once done, there really is no going back.

[Peter Fogwill]

Dave, my point is its only necessary if you want to turn the water flow down. I would never want to do that so in my case a controller would be completely unnecessary.  All that it could possible add in my cases is problems, without any benefits whatsoever.  That could be the case for others as well if they have a lot of problems with controllers. There are alternative ways of working.

Winp the key is in your above statement, my point is why would you not want to be on full flow all the time? My unnecessary and backward step allows me to clean a window in half the time someone who has not taken that unnecessary and backward step. I know quite a bit about PWM, done quite a bit of research actually.  It's a shame that so many people learn to use something that is completely unnecessary, problematic, and slows them down. If that's progress then yes I don't want any part if it.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

Dave, my point is its only necessary if you want to turn the water flow down. I would never want to do that so in my case a controller would be completely unnecessary.  All that it could possible add in my cases is problems, without any benefits whatsoever.  That could be the case for others as well if they have a lot of problems with controllers. There are alternative ways of working.

Winp the key is in your above statement, my point is why would you not want to be on full flow all the time? My unnecessary and backward step allows me to clean a window in half the time someone who has not taken that unnecessary and backward step. I know quite a bit about PWM, done quite a bit of research actually.  It's a shame that so many people learn to use something that is completely unnecessary, problematic, and slows them down. If that's progress then yes I don't want any part if it.

There IS a minimum amount of time required to clean any window- to give a spot free & acceptable standard! Any experienced WFP'er would agree surely. We are not talking about the difference between full flow & a trickle here, but rather full flow Vs optimum flow (FF vs OF). FF will clean the window NO faster than OF but WILL use more water doing it, fact! You can't have OF with a bypass because there is nothing to monitor & sense any drop or increase in pressure & adjust the flow accordingly for you. So with a bypass, the higher you go the less flow you get, drop the pole & you get more flow- unless you're prepared to constantly run back & forth to the van to adjust it this is how it is UNLESS you use full flow!! You see, that's why people use full flow, they don't really have another reasonable option! They then convince themselves it's better/faster & even saves water!!!

So, to answer your question Peter- you run on full flow because not to do so would make the job too much hassle & you'd never achieve any degree of an "optimum" flow!

[DG Cleaning]

But you can vary the flow if you have a pole tap instantly.
There are only a few rare occasions when I don't use full flow but it's handy when it's needed.

[Peter Fogwill]

No I use full flow because it is faster to clean a window. Forget the bypass that is there for people in certain circumstances for whatever reason need to reduce the flow short term, as far as I am concerened its not even needed but is there for someone who wants to reduce flow.  Your minimum time required to clean the window could be double my time to clean the same window, or half someone else's time for the same window.  Who decides this imaginary optimum flow? Do you have any scientific data to back that up? What setting would that be on your flow controller? Would anyone using a slightly different setting be wasting water, or time??  

Yes there may be an optimum flow for each individual set by the speed they work at personally.  I am not talking about the speed they walk to the window, or the speed they move from window to window. The only thing relevant is the speed that the brush moves over the glass. Even a slow worker can move his brush faster, and by doing so can increase productivity without wasting water, and by doing so can eliminate one of the most problematic bits of equipment in any WFP system.  He can be cleaning window and making money while others learn how to use a flow controller so that they can earn less per hour, or work more hours.

If you want me to discuss this further you have to accept we are talking full flow or your reduced flow.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

No I use full flow because it is faster to clean a window. Forget the bypass that is there for people in certain circumstances for whatever reason need to reduce the flow short term, as far as I am concerened its not even needed but is there for someone who wants to reduce flow.  Your minimum time required to clean the window could be double my time to clean the same window, or half someone else's time for the same window.  Who decides this imaginary optimum flow? Do you have any scientific data to back that up? What setting would that be on your flow controller? Would anyone using a slightly different setting be wasting water, or time??  

Yes there may be an optimum flow for each individual set by the speed they work at personally.  I am not talking about the speed they walk to the window, or the speed they move from window to window. The only thing relevant is the speed that the brush moves over the glass. Even a slow worker can move his brush faster, and by doing so can increase productivity without wasting water, and by doing so can eliminate one of the most problematic bits of equipment in any WFP system.  He can be cleaning window and making money while others learn how to use a flow controller so that they can earn less per hour, or work more hours.

If you want me to discuss this further you have to accept we are talking full flow or your reduced flow.

With respect, I don't think there is much point Peter.

I can only assume you don't do much window cleaning any more & haven't done for some time. Your time to clean a window won't be any faster than mine I can assure you but you will use more water than me. Regardless, you do not have a credible argument on speed alone, to think so would strongly support my above assumption.

[AuRavelling79]

But with my full flow restricted as necessary with a tap on my belt I have the simplest option.

If you have a flow controller then how do you change the flow rate from window to window as needed?

If you have no tap to hand how do you change the flow rate from window to window as needed?


E.g. A side of as house with 3 upvc windows above two lower windows and a  slightly leaky wooden Georgian door.

I clean the top three on full flow (starting above the Georgian door), but when wiping the cills, turn off the flow with my tap to reduce dripping on the windows below. While allowing the drips to stop I do the Georgian door by reducing the flow with my tap so as not to get water inside the letterbox, frame etc.

I then go back to full flow for the downstairs upvc windows.

[Peter Fogwill]

No I use full flow because it is faster to clean a window. Forget the bypass that is there for people in certain circumstances for whatever reason need to reduce the flow short term, as far as I am concerened its not even needed but is there for someone who wants to reduce flow.  Your minimum time required to clean the window could be double my time to clean the same window, or half someone else's time for the same window.  Who decides this imaginary optimum flow? Do you have any scientific data to back that up? What setting would that be on your flow controller? Would anyone using a slightly different setting be wasting water, or time??  

Yes there may be an optimum flow for each individual set by the speed they work at personally.  I am not talking about the speed they walk to the window, or the speed they move from window to window. The only thing relevant is the speed that the brush moves over the glass. Even a slow worker can move his brush faster, and by doing so can increase productivity without wasting water, and by doing so can eliminate one of the most problematic bits of equipment in any WFP system.  He can be cleaning window and making money while others learn how to use a flow controller so that they can earn less per hour, or work more hours.

If you want me to discuss this further you have to accept we are talking full flow or your reduced flow.

With respect, I don't think there is much point Peter.

I can only assume you don't do much window cleaning any more & haven't done for some time. Your time to clean a window won't be any faster than mine I can assure you but you will use more water than me. Regardless, you do not have a credible argument on speed alone, to think so would strongly support my above assumption.

No problem we will leave it at that.  I don't see how many windows I clean at this present time is relevant.  You have not been the first, and certainly won't be the last person I have came across with that exact same attitude.  Hopefully I have done enough for people to think about options, and not just settle for the status quo.

[Peter Fogwill]

Granville, I would do that all on full flow but instead of reducing the flow on the leaky window I would turn the flow off for a certain amount of that time so less water would be used.  Just like if I came across a window with some stubborn birds dirt on it, then again I would turn the full flow off while I delt with it and again back to full flow again.  BTW that's how PWM (pulse with modulation) works. The pump has full power supplied to it, but its only supplied for a certain amount of time. A pump turned down to half way with a flow controller, will be on for half a second and off for half a second.

[Moderator David@stives]

foggy

you ain't cleaned any windows since 1982

[mrwindows]

Interesting discussion on flow rate, yet not one mention of actual flow rate being used 

[rosskesava]

I want to know how many litres a minute optimum flow is and is optimum flow the same for a window covered in dirt or salt?

[Dave Garrett]

Anyone got an idiots guide to setting up without a flow controller wiring etc would appreciate been having same problems with flow controller would appreciate step by step guide

[DG Cleaning]

If you do a search I think there's a wiring diagram on here somewhere.

[Peter Fogwill]

Mrwindows its easy to see what my flow rate is, just turn the pump up full.

Ross. My optimum through no choice because I can't adjust it up, is up full a 100psi pump going through a 100M microbore.  Makes no difference the state of the window because its on full anyway.  

Dave I have a wiring diagram of a relay wired up to a pump.  If you set up the pressure switch properly the relay is not so important. I would say its worth having though.  I will look it out and email it to you Monday if you like?
I have posted a picture of the diagram on here a while back.

It's surprising how much problems there is with controllers, I have personally bypassed quite a  few for people who have came to the workshop for help.  I could have easily sold them a controller at X amount of money, but instead sold them on the idea that the controller was not necessary, and they were not saving water, and they were faster on full power.  It cost them nothing, and cut any likely future problems by more than 50 percent.  These were average window cleaners who never had a clue what the problem was, whether it was the pump or the controller. As soon as I see the controller I know that's the problem.

Having said all the above you have to be prepared to work on full flow or keep the controller.  You could however buy a smaller pump and don't bother with a controller.

I have about 10 PWM controllers in the workshop I had bought for something else, that cost under £10 each and I wouldn't even fit them in a pump box, or sell to guys with faulty controllers as I simply don't think the pump should be used on anything less than full.

[mrwindows]

Peter the point i'm making is  your pump might have a different lpm than mine or winpro.
you're assuming all pumps are the same which they are not.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

Mrwindows its easy to see what my flow rate is, just turn the pump up full.

Ross. My optimum through no choice because I can't adjust it up, is up full a 100psi pump going through a 100M microbore.  Makes no difference the state of the window because its on full anyway.  

Dave I have a wiring diagram of a relay wired up to a pump.  If you set up the pressure switch properly the relay is not so important. I would say its worth having though.  I will look it out and email it to you Monday if you like?
I have posted a picture of the diagram on here a while back.

It's surprising how much problems there is with controllers, I have personally bypassed quite a  few for people who have came to the workshop for help.  I could have easily sold them a controller at X amount of money, but instead sold them on the idea that the controller was not necessary, and they were not saving water, and they were faster on full power.  It cost them nothing, and cut any likely future problems by more than 50 percent.  These were average window cleaners who never had a clue what the problem was, whether it was the pump or the controller. As soon as I see the controller I know that's the problem.

Having said all the above you have to be prepared to work on full flow or keep the controller.  You could however buy a smaller pump and don't bother with a controller.

I have about 10 PWM controllers in the workshop I had bought for something else, that cost under £10 each and I wouldn't even fit them in a pump box, or sell to guys with faulty controllers as I simply don't think the pump should be used on anything less than full.

 These were average window cleaners who never had a clue what the problem was, whether it was the pump or the controller. As soon as I see the controller I know that's the problem.  

That's a ridiculous attitude Peter. Neither you nor those poor guys never knew what the problem even was then as you just decided it was the controller!!

It could have been as simple as air in the system (compressing thus throwing the DE setting off). There are many very simple things that these problems could have been- even down to just ambient temperature!

I'm sorry but for someone in your position this really does beggar belief!! You have proven my initial suspicion- you haven't a clue what the purpose of or how to set up & use a controller!

I'M OUT!!

[rosskesava]

Mrwindows its easy to see what my flow rate is, just turn the pump up full.

Ross. My optimum through no choice because I can't adjust it up, is up full a 100psi pump going through a 100M microbore.  Makes no difference the state of the window because its on full anyway.  

Peter, about 2 years ago my flow controller went wrong, yet again, and after buying yet another battery only to get the same fault a few weeks later, I smashed the thing to pieces with a club hammer.

I havn't used a flow controller since and I don't know why anyone bothers with them.

[Peter Fogwill]

Winp I am glad your out. I don't have to put up with someone like you submising this and submising that.  You don't have a clue what type of controller they had, what the problem was with it, or what I checked to find out what the problem was.  You have no idea what my knowledge is on any particular subject controllers included.  Why can't people like you let other people have different opinions, without you playing the almighty and rubbishing them?  Someone was having a problem with a controller like so many do and I offered an alternative, why should that upset you so much? Does it have to be your way or no way? One things for sure the guys that came to me with the controller problem won't have that same problem again.  The guy that started this post wouldn't be having this problem, I see you have not sorted it out for him have you?

If you know so much about flow controllers why don't you make one with no user input, one that the ordinary window cleaner doesn't need a degree in electronics to operate? One that you just turn on and off, and up and down, and it continues to work?  People have problems with controllers, I want to tell them they are not necessary.  People that have never had a problem just ignores it as it doesn't effect them.

Sorry mrwindows I will check to see what the flow rate is as its not something I have to tell people, or check the pumps.  The ones I use are the same all the time.  I can say though no matter what one it is I would have it on full.  I used the 60psi on full, and when I moved up to the 100psi it was still full. 

[paul13]

That's a ridiculous attitude Peter. Neither you nor those poor guys never knew what the problem even was then as you just decided it was the controller!!

It could have been as simple as air in the system (compressing thus throwing the DE setting off). There are many very simple things that these problems could have been- even down to just ambient temperature!

I'm sorry but for someone in your position this really does beggar belief!! You have proven my initial suspicion- you haven't a clue what the purpose of or how to set up & use a controller!

I'M OUT!!
[/quote]

Why would he use a controller he's made his point, you do not need a controller
now as some one who cleans a lot of windows every day for over 10 years with out a controller (have got one) they are pointless for the window cleaner who wants to go out do his shift and make money this is a expense that is not necessary gadgets are an income for many in this industry and although I have wasted a lot on the latest gadgets the fact Peter is on here trying to save anyone money is a credit to him.