[john martin]

A couple of Enforcer owners mentioned that Ashbys produces the Omega CFM meter during the sales pitch and showed them 200CFM , a figure which many knew to be illogical and is now proved wrong beyond reasonable doubt . The buyers trusted them a took their word even though it would be now reasonable to conclude Ashbys were lying through their grinning teeth before taking their money and send them on their way .

So whats different with Solutions ?  From what i read on CT they are bringing in the jags and measuring (270cfm and 9HG) which is the likely true figures for the Jag  ,  refitting some internal hoses and producing the CFM meter again to show 360cfm ...
That figure is just as illogical as Ashbys figure  ....   you have two 6.6's each rated at 139CFM ... you can not make two of them produce more than double that ( around 280cfm ) 

 Why are they fitting larger internal hoses , its logical to conclude that its to help solve the heat buildup issue that has resulted in reported motor failure by some owners , and nothing wrong with that mod .


But claiming a huge increase in CFM beyond what is logical is just like Ashbys ,  lying through their teeth .

How ?  you have to enter several parameters into the digital anemometer , example internal hose volume ... think how easy it would be to toggle between a couple of presets to come up with a different figure .
 

[*Hector*]

so what is the point of this post??

You have said nothing on here that you have not said on other threads...

[Fran84]

I'm no Solutions die hard but I'm gonna have to stick up for them on this one.

I don't believe Solutions have said anything at all about their cfm readings. I belive it was a user that said it.

If it really is a problem for you then tell th people who claim these findings. See if you can call them liers!!

Honestly, what is wrong with some people. Every other day I see someone trying to slag someone else off, and the best of it is. YOU'RE SAYING IT IN THE WRONG PLACE.

[john martin]

I'm no Solutions die hard but I'm gonna have to stick up for them on this one.

I don't believe Solutions have said anything at all about their cfm readings. I belive it was a user that said it.

If it really is a problem for you then tell th people who claim these findings. See if you can call them liers!!

Honestly, what is wrong with some people. Every other day I see someone trying to slag someone else off, and the best of it is. YOU'RE SAYING IT IN THE WRONG PLACE.

A User ? are you calling him a lair ?

This is a post on cleantalk now ...
I cant read the responses as im not a member but who do u think hes talking about performing the CFM test ?



We got back from Piskey Land last night and I must say that the Cornish hospitality was as good as ever. Big Thanks to all the team at Solutions. Despite my growing years, I did actually remember to ask Nick and Colin to measure the vac performance of my Jag both on arrival and prior to departure. Machine in, airflow in was 271.1CFM's and as near as 10" Hg as you can get. At every stage, Hg remained consistent, so I wont mention it again. After conversion, the Jaguar was tested in many ways. First off, it measured 358cfm's. That's a "free" improvement of 32%. Can't be bad that. Same vacs, no extra power consumption and, hopefully, even better cooling. But 358cfm's isn't the whole story. We discussed between us the variation in figures that Nick records from the same machines at different times 

[feldon]

Firstly I am not a Jaguar owner, I own a Storm not that matters, the writer of that post is not an employee or owner of Solutions but a very highly respected member of the carpet cleaning community who I would hasten to add posts under his own name and does not hide behind a pseudonym.  Whilst you are certainly a very knowledgeable John it is a getting a tad boring this constant slagging off of certain manufactures. 

[garry22]

This is Ken's full post. I don't think he has an axe to grind. I've only met him a couple of times but he always comes across as a decent bloke.

"We got back from Piskey Land last night and I must say that the Cornish hospitality was as good as ever. Big Thanks to all the team at Solutions.

Despite my growing years, I did actually remember to ask Nick and Colin to measure the vac performance of my Jag both on arrival and prior to departure.

Machine in, airflow in was 271.1CFM's and as near as 10" Hg as you can get. At every stage, Hg remained consistent, so I wont mention it again.

After conversion, the Jaguar was tested in many ways. First off, it measured 358cfm's. That's a "free" improvement of 32%. Can't be bad that. Same vacs, no extra power consumption and, hopefully, even better cooling.

But 358cfm's isn't the whole story. We discussed between us the variation in figures that Nick records from the same machines at different times. This can be quite significant. The theories we threw into the pot was varying climatic conditions ie higher and lower air pressure affecting the readings. But the most significant variations I have noticed throughout my career is the electricity supply. Even with my Sebo vacuum, I can tell by the sound of the brush motor whether the voltage is high or low. It is certainly noticeable too at the end of the Westpac. The day after the Jag conversion was completed, Nick again took cfm readings whilst I was there, and they varied somewhat in the low 360's. For my own machine, I am therefore going to say that I have 360cfm's

Now for a big twist. I want to "turn" the vac exhaust so that it blows away from the machine, keeping hot air away. Nick made up a shaped baffle/diverter plate for this purpose. CFM's actually increased:shock: By delicate manipulation of the baffle the figures went into the high 360's. But then Nick tried it with just his hands acting as the baffle/diverter and we found that in specific position with his hands cupped into a specific shape, we had consistent readings of 374cfm's. :censored: hell! Fluid dynamics is certainly a complex issue!

Now another dynamic. There has been low level research in the US, using a high end T/M as the source, to find the optimum cfm's through a 50ft hose. Tests were carried out, so I'm told, with extended runs, 4 to the door, a straight 50ft plus other configurations and the results were similar for every configuration. 260cfms. The conclusion of this test, so I'm told, was that 260cm's is the max. achievable under normal circumstances, but a powerful T/M will achieve the same fugure over longer hose runs than a lower spec machine. To be honest, I'm a little sceptical about this research but I won't discredit the results either. More needs to be done.

So, we measured the modified Jaguar with 50ft of new hose attached. 270cfms' and the same 10"Hg.

I'm happy:woohoo:

Probably wont be rinse extracting until later in the week, but I'm all excited at the prospect.  "

He then corrects this by saying the figure 274 was a mistype and should have read 274.

[john martin]

This is Ken's full post. I don't think he has an axe to grind. I've only met him a couple of times but he always comes across as a decent bloke.

"We got back from Piskey Land last night and I must say that the Cornish hospitality was as good as ever. Big Thanks to all the team at Solutions.

Despite my growing years, I did actually remember to ask Nick and Colin to measure the vac performance of my Jag both on arrival and prior to departure.

Machine in, airflow in was 271.1CFM's and as near as 10" Hg as you can get. At every stage, Hg remained consistent, so I wont mention it again.

After conversion, the Jaguar was tested in many ways. First off, it measured 358cfm's. That's a "free" improvement of 32%. Can't be bad that. Same vacs, no extra power consumption and, hopefully, even better cooling.

But 358cfm's isn't the whole story. We discussed between us the variation in figures that Nick records from the same machines at different times. This can be quite significant. The theories we threw into the pot was varying climatic conditions ie higher and lower air pressure affecting the readings. But the most significant variations I have noticed throughout my career is the electricity supply. Even with my Sebo vacuum, I can tell by the sound of the brush motor whether the voltage is high or low. It is certainly noticeable too at the end of the Westpac. The day after the Jag conversion was completed, Nick again took cfm readings whilst I was there, and they varied somewhat in the low 360's. For my own machine, I am therefore going to say that I have 360cfm's

Now for a big twist. I want to "turn" the vac exhaust so that it blows away from the machine, keeping hot air away. Nick made up a shaped baffle/diverter plate for this purpose. CFM's actually increased:shock: By delicate manipulation of the baffle the figures went into the high 360's. But then Nick tried it with just his hands acting as the baffle/diverter and we found that in specific position with his hands cupped into a specific shape, we had consistent readings of 374cfm's. :censored: hell! Fluid dynamics is certainly a complex issue!

Now another dynamic. There has been low level research in the US, using a high end T/M as the source, to find the optimum cfm's through a 50ft hose. Tests were carried out, so I'm told, with extended runs, 4 to the door, a straight 50ft plus other configurations and the results were similar for every configuration. 260cfms. The conclusion of this test, so I'm told, was that 260cm's is the max. achievable under normal circumstances, but a powerful T/M will achieve the same fugure over longer hose runs than a lower spec machine. To be honest, I'm a little sceptical about this research but I won't discredit the results either. More needs to be done.

So, we measured the modified Jaguar with 50ft of new hose attached. 270cfms' and the same 10"Hg.

I'm happy:woohoo:

Probably wont be rinse extracting until later in the week, but I'm all excited at the prospect.  "

He then corrects this by saying the figure 274 was a mistype and should have read 274.

Thanks for posting garry , i could only see half of that as CT has blocked non members again ...
but i am an non the wiser for reading it    

Anyway It doesn't take a gauge to know that two 139's cant equal more than 280 .

[Len Gribble]

Thank God I’ve only got a baby TM, what next phoenix v titan (only one winner who brings in ££££) LM for me what’s the cfm on that   that’s one for Ken W

[Paul Moss]

Len, Ken has a little red fire engine that has brought him good money in lm for years 

[Len Gribble]

Paul

What a spot to be put in cfm V money

not a great lover of red fire engine

Please don’t mines 3”in bigger 

[Paul Moss]

Len wait till you try out an Orbot, then you will fall in love with commercial work 

[Neil Jones]

I don't get the reason for this post? So someone said something about a machine, and what? What difference does it make? If your going to say he's trying to brain wash people in to buying a machine that they think produces x amount of cfm's then that person buying the machine should surely ask for a test to be done to be sure.
I have no reason to believe Ken W is lying and don't think he would, I've read the post and that's that, I have also read this post but don't feel the need to run off to ct and tell tales, especially when that person isn't there to defend themselves. Get a grip

[john martin]

I don't get the reason for this post? So someone said something about a machine, and what? What difference does it make? If your going to say he's trying to brain wash people in to buying a machine that they think produces x amount of cfm's then that person buying the machine should surely ask for a test to be done to be sure.
I have no reason to believe Ken W is lying and don't think he would, I've read the post and that's that, I have also read this post but don't feel the need to run off to ct and tell tales, especially when that person isn't there to defend themselves. Get a grip

Neil , do you not think anyone buying a machine from a supplier should be told the truth ?  be it from Ashbys , solutions or anyone else ...
What the CT poster said is that solutions is telling people that the Jaguar has 270cfm  .... but if they alter the internal hoses the CFM jumps to 360

No doubt anyone buying the 2013 jag or whatever they are calling it now will be told it already has the internal mods  ....  and if they ask for a CFM test like u suggest , there is a good chance solutions CFM gauge will read 360

But ....   The CFM increase suggested is illogical  ... It has two  139cfm motors 
add the two together and u get 280 .... all a machines internal plumbing can do thereafter is act as restriction and decrease that number ...  a good machine design will prevent loss  ..... 
But nothing inside the machine can increase the CFM  ...


So do u think its fine for people to be fooled when buying a machine ?


If I'm wrong with the numbers ... let anyone  come here and challenge me   ,  ken  , Nick  , Ed  i don't care who it is as long as they can give a plausible argument as to how CFM can be increased in this way  .

[Craigp]

Len wait till you try out an Orbot, then you will fall in love with commercial work 

Paul, Really?

Is it that much benefit having the little sprayers on? that is the only thing over a rotary they do isn't it?

surely its not much different to spraying on with a pump up, or am I missing something?   

[AshWhite]

The orbot is a type of OP machine, not a rotary.

[Paul Moss]

Yep Craig, you are defo missing something 

[Craigp]

The orbot is a type of OP machine, not a rotary.

Just means it wobbles doesn't it?

Thanks for that indepth reply Paul, 

[AshWhite]

Wobbles? Yes, I think that's what they put on the box lol

It doesn't flatten the pile like a rotary because they move in different directions - so it lifts the pile and cleans on more than 1 side of the fibre (not that I want to start a debate).

[Paul Moss]

To do an indepth reply i would have to go deep, deep undercover

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Adding a spray unit does save time the oscillating motion is better than a rotary but when I had mine I didn't think it was significantly better on carpet.

Shaun