[William McCafferty]

I was speaking to a fellow windy today, to give him job that requires the use of ladders, he told me that he got stopped by the HSE the other week because he was using ladders, he works some of the same areas that I do and its not far from where I live, about 1 mile.

They have said that they will take action against him if the catch him again, so beware the HSE are about.

and for all those who smoke and work in Brum, be careful the council are doing a crackdown on smoking in work vechicles.

[Moderator David@stives]

Must of been a bogus hse officer or your mate is a crank

[trevor perry]

was he warned about the condition of the ladders or the way he was using them i think we need a bit more info

[William McCafferty]

I have just spoke to him again, it was a real HSE with ID, the HSE said he was breaking the law and he can only use ladders upto 2 meters high, my mate was a bit higher about 3 meters.

if he is caught again it a fine of between £1000 and £5000

my mate has been a cleaner for years and is no numpty or crank

[trevor perry]

I have just spoke to him again, it was a real HSE with ID, the HSE said he was breaking the law and he can only use ladders upto 2 meters high, my mate was a bit higher about 3 meters.

if he is caught again it a fine of between £1000 and £5000

my mate has been a cleaner for years and is no numpty or crank

 that is total rubish ladders can be used higher than 3 metres provided they are secured, footed or a suitable antislip device used i think someone is winding him up or he has made up the story, if it is true then the HSE officer isnt well informed on work at height issues and should of informed the window cleaner how to carry out task more safely

[William McCafferty]

he hasn't made the story up, i called to give him a job worth a couple of hundred £ and can only be done from a ladder or scaffolding and he turned it down.

The HSE guy is real and it's possible that he hasnt a clue on the wahd, or maybe he has seen that my mate was breaking the rules.

[richywilts]

I have just spoke to him again, it was a real HSE with ID, the HSE said he was breaking the law and he can only use ladders upto 2 meters high, my mate was a bit higher about 3 meters.

if he is caught again it a fine of between £1000 and £5000

my mate has been a cleaner for years and is no numpty or crank

 that is total rubish ladders can be used higher than 3 metres provided they are secured, footed or a suitable antislip device used i think someone is winding him up or he has made up the story, if it is true then the HSE officer isnt well informed on work at height issues and should of informed the window cleaner how to carry out task more safely

trevor your saying over 3 metres IF secured footed or tied maybe this window cleaner was doing neither of these and this is why hse guy has said 2 metres only

[rosskesava]

Funny that.

About 5 weeks ago I did a builders clean on a council built community centre.

After submitting a quote, I had to do a risk assessment and a method of safe working and then on the day after having the induction, I had to walk round with the elfin safety bloke (clutching the eternal clipboard) and site foreman, and explain how I was going to be working.

He did not bat an eyelid when I said that for a few first floor windows, I'd be using a ladder which would be coned off with warning tape.

[Gray1]

About six months ago I was told of a windy in Kingstanding (Brum) being stoped by a H&S when he was cleaning. Strange that, mabe someone in Brum being over the top!

[jsb]

think the hse guy was ill informed ,

ladders are not illegal for window cleaners ,

check out the HSE  website under ladder usage ,

it states




The law
Work at Height Regulations 2005

The Work at Height Regulations (2005) came into force in April 2005. Employers have a duty to assess the risks, plan and supervise all workers who work at height. You will find guidance about the regulations in:

INDG 401 - The Work at Height Regulations 2005: a brief guide
Topics include:

What is 'work at height'?
What the regulations cover
Do the rules apply to you?
What you must do as an employer
When can ladders be used?

Ladders can be used if after assessing the risks the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk and short duration.

Short duration is taken to be between 15 and 30 minutes depending upon the task.

Ladders can also be used for low risk work where there are features on the site that mean a ladder must be used.


so in short if its safe to use and you arent going to be up the ladder for more than 30 mins "which is a guideline , ladders can be used . most domestic , semi or detached houses dont take longer than 5 mins to clean a window .

i have been using ladders for 20 years , i clean the home of "the chief exec HSE inspector of durham county council " and he has told me that each trade will be risk assessed independtly ,

[robertphil]

i saw a driving instuctoress puffing on a fAg as she drove her mini the other day. smoke drifted into my van chugging behind her .  now that was bad

[SunShineCleaning]

think the hse guy was ill informed ,

ladders are not illegal for window cleaners ,

check out the HSE  website under ladder usage ,

it states




The law
Work at Height Regulations 2005

The Work at Height Regulations (2005) came into force in April 2005. Employers have a duty to assess the risks, plan and supervise all workers who work at height. You will find guidance about the regulations in:

INDG 401 - The Work at Height Regulations 2005: a brief guide
Topics include:

What is 'work at height'?
What the regulations cover
Do the rules apply to you?
What you must do as an employer
When can ladders be used?

Ladders can be used if after assessing the risks the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk and short duration.

Short duration is taken to be between 15 and 30 minutes depending upon the task.

Ladders can also be used for low risk work where there are features on the site that mean a ladder must be used.


so in short if its safe to use and you arent going to be up the ladder for more than 30 mins "which is a guideline , ladders can be used . most domestic , semi or detached houses dont take longer than 5 mins to clean a window .

i have been using ladders for 20 years , i clean the home of "the chief exec HSE inspector of durham county council " and he has told me that each trade will be risk assessed independtly ,

Good luck with trying to quote that when you have an accident.

YOU may well assess the risk as minimal and YOU may well think that the 30 mins refers to each house or window when infact it refers to the use you make of ladders during any period.

However, when you try to claim you will find it rather different.

All claims will need to be backed up with a COMPETENT RAMS.

That means that your RAMS has to be well written, if it is badly written or doesn't follow what they feel is best or safest practice they will refuse the claim on the grounds that the RAMS is flawed and you were not following best practice.

If your RAMS says you will use ladders ALL the time, your RAMS is flawed.
If you think that it is low risk to work off a ladder your thinking is flawed.

If your RAMS is competent you will have to follow it to the letter or guess what, if you don't follow it to the letter they won't pay out.

It'snot te HSE you need to worry about, it's the insurance claim after an accident.

[robertphil]

av u ad a claim then ?if not you know nowt

[EandM]

The term assessment is therefore completely bogus.

If YOU assess that something is safe and reasonable but the HSE assess that it isn't then presumably even if you've followed the guidelines the HSE are always right ?

Because as we know all Government Departments are perfect and never make ANY mistakes.

[SunShineCleaning]

If you have a paper trail and show understanding of your own RAMS and responsibilities there should not be an issue.

However, if you make a large claim and you have clearly, even by omission, been any way negligent the insurance won't pay out.

Have a look at your own PL schedule wording and you will see how they can easily wriggle out of paying out.

The key for window cleaners is to reduce the risk to an absolute minimum which will mean not using ladders as standard.

[SunShineCleaning]

Funny that.

About 5 weeks ago I did a builders clean on a council built community centre.

After submitting a quote, I had to do a risk assessment and a method of safe working and then on the day after having the induction, I had to walk round with the elfin safety bloke (clutching the eternal clipboard) and site foreman, and explain how I was going to be working.

He did not bat an eyelid when I said that for a few first floor windows, I'd be using a ladder which would be coned off with warning tape.

It depends on how well trained the H & S men are in the first place, some will let anything go others will let nothing go.
Just because they have signed off on it does not mean that in the event of a large claim the insurers will not try to get out of it. 

[William McCafferty]

The main problems with a lot of these laws and directives is they are not worded in a simple straight forward way, unlike other laws, for instance you cannot drive above 70mph on a motorway.

The wahd directive is worded that it can have several meanings to who ever is reading it, for instance you can only use ladders if there is not other practical alternative, so if you read this then on most houses a pole or wfp is suitable, but scaffolding or cherry pickers is not practical.

The other bit about short duration of using a ladder, is 10-15-20 or 30 minutes a short duration, well yes you will all say, but the cleaner is not just going to do that one job in the day, he will move onto the next door and spend another 30 minutes up a ladder, and he can do this all day, which might be for 12 hours, so would you class this as a short duration on ladder use.

At the end of the day if a accident happens, then you will have to prove you are in the right, if you are a sole trader, then its likely going to be the insurance company you will have to convince, if you employ thedn its the HSE you will have to show you used the correct method, and you also have to hope that both of these look at the wahd directives the same way that you do.

Of course coming off ladders and going onto wfp, does not let you free from the other H&S laws that are about, trips and slips can also happen.

[KS Cleaning]

i saw a driving instuctoress puffing on a f*g as she drove her mini the other day. smoke drifted into my van chugging behind her .  now that was bad

What! You were chugging behind her ,good job she never seen you,dirty man

[andrew hamshare]

I know a landscape gardener who's been told if he digs a Boole deeper than 1.5 m then he is technically working at height!

[Viktor]

Ladders are not banned for window cleaning and the bloke is passing misleading information. Not long ago went on H&S training and practical bit was of using ladders