[roundbuilder]

if i have a full round that can earn say 3-4k a month is there much point getting another van on the road as seems a lot of extra work and headaches for not much extra profit??. by the time you buy a new van canvass up or buy another round and all the equipment then employ with wages to pay with fuel bills insurance's etc there isnt much in the way of profit or am I wrong??.
it seems that unless i have 3 or more vans out which i dont want to do its best to stay a 1 man band.

your thoughts or experiance on the subject please.

[alanwilson]

I have 2 vans running

van 1 is myself and a worker

van 2 is my son and a worker

(hate referring to them as workers but don't want to give away their anonymity)

anyway - as a guide, van 2's profits are split between my son and myself.  Each van is expected to do £6000 per month, take off fuel, wages etc and whats left gets cut in two. 

You need to decide what works for you but with more staff come more troubles, but at the same time it allows me to take time off for holidays as the other 3 guys cover me, but then we must do the same for each other.

If you do go ahead with another van then you need to pay the guys well - if you don't they are more likely to question why they are working for you.

Basic figures should run somewhere close to this:

Van 2

Turnover - £6k month
Fuel - £300 month
Allowance for depreciation and maintainance (obviously depends on value of van etc but for example) £200 month
Insurance - £100
Wages 2 men - £2800
Gross Profit - £2600

Obviously these figures are only a rough idea as to what you should be looking at and as always there are other costs to consider.

Like I say, I have 2 vans and it is worth it to me but it keeps my son in a job too so maybe that is additional motivation for me.

Incidentally I am considering selling part of the business to fund a move to Northern Ireland as I have a holiday home there and quite fancy a change.

[laddermonkee]

Are you WFP Alan?

[Simon Spencer]

If your turnovers 12k a month, surely your 1st and biggest expense would be VAT?? Or did you forget about that??

[richywilts]

alan how have you grown too 12000quid a month how long have you been established??? i just cant seem too get anymore interest we build, lose a few, build, lose a few etc etc

[Rogue Trader]

do you really think he forgot about vat with a 12k monthly turnover  : : those figures are probably after vat so you might be able to grasp it : this forum is dying with pathetic nit picking like this....

[idealrob]

There is no point in my opinion, adding another van and as said before, loosing 20% of you current work to VAT, i know of a current 1 man band who is very close to the threashold, so is selling his worst work, and getting more money, better prices from new customers, and still keeping under VAT threashold. Basically an extra days work a week, just to go to vat man. By the way, we are vat registered, and there are advantages, eg buying a new van, supplies, van expenses , fuel etc

idealrob

[Simon Spencer]

The point I'm trying to make is if you are going to offer advice to anybody don't forget the biggest expense of all!!

In most cases 1 van on the round will just stay under the vat bracket, get another van on the round at thats going to push you well over.

The profit off your second van will cover the vat you will have to pay on your 1st van, so you wont make anymore cash, however get 3 vans on the road then that's when you start to make some cash! Unless your work is mainly commercial then the above won't really apply!

[SunShineCleaning]

It's all about profit margins.
Work out how much 'real' profit you make from one Van.

To do that you have to allow all expences, wages to a second man and what you 'actually' pay yourself.

If Actual profit is say 20% that is the amount you should at least start with for profit for the second van.  Having said that if you can get away with paying the driver less than you pay yourself you can increase the profit.

VAT is just a headach and shouldn't eat into profits as you will charge customers it anyway. Whether you stay under the limit to avoid the headach is not really the issue here.

Making 10% from each worker will always make money IF you have worked out what YOUR expences are for how you run your business.

Throw some example figures up and folk can comment.

[Simon Spencer]

VAT is a big issue!!

You can't charge an extra 20% to your domestic accounts, they just won't wear it, especially in todays economic climate.

Obviously commercial is not a problem as most company's are vat registered anyway.

In my eyes VAT is a real issue, like I said in previous post, your profit on van 2 will pay for the vat on van 1.

Get 3, 4, 5 vans on the road then you will start to make some serious money!!

This is assuming that most of your work is domestic.

At the end of the day, only you know what you business will allow.

[SunShineCleaning]

VAT is a big issue!!

You can't charge an extra 20% to your domestic accounts, they just won't wear it, especially in todays economic climate.

Obviously commercial is not a problem as most company's are vat registered anyway.

In my eyes VAT is a real issue, like I said in previous post, your profit on van 2 will pay for the vat on van 1.

Get 3, 4, 5 vans on the road then you will start to make some serious money!!

This is assuming that most of your work is domestic.

At the end of the day, only you know what you business will allow.

Yes you can charge VAT. You should charge VAT, if you don't you can't run your business like a business.

Go on to the flat rate and inform them that their price goes up 20% but you are holding back on a regular price increase.

[Simon Spencer]

Window cleaning is Becoming a very competitive business, it's nothing like it use to be.

You can't just hit someone with 20% rise and expect them to take it on the chin, even if you haven't put your prices up for a few years. 20% a big rise in a competitive industry like ours!

That's the fun part of business, the ones that get it right take the work of the ones that get it wrong

[Dean Taberner]

2 vans gives a greater coverage,

I had one van start in Mansfield-Nottinghamshire today(2of us) and my other van(2 guys) started in Cheltenham-Gloucestershire and we are aiming to sweep up all areas in between tomorrow/thursday.

Dean.

[SunShineCleaning]

Window cleaning is Becoming a very competitive business, it's nothing like it use to be.

You can't just hit someone with 20% rise and expect them to take it on the chin, even if you haven't put your prices up for a few years. 20% a big rise in a competitive industry like ours!

That's the fun part of business, the ones that get it right take the work of the ones that get it wrong

I guess for those of us that have been going 20 years and have well established work it wouldn't pose the same fear as it will for anyone with only a few years experience.

I no longer employ because of the other headachs and can happily tick over under the VAT threshold so its not an issue for me. My mate put his up like I suggested when he went over VAT without issue.

[Dean Taberner]

VAT??

[alanwilson]

to answer the VAT question - most of our customers are VAT registered businesses, we also do a lot of work for governmental bodies.

with domestics we charge our price, add on the vat - therefore a £20 house becomes £24 etc - we have to pay the vat on these obviously.  As for customers not putting up with it - they don't have a choice, I have to charge it.

Richy - To answer how we got to the point we are at - simple, I went for government work straight off through a contact from my old work - now the work is tendered but he lets me know when the tenders are out but its open info for anyone.  It really was relentless for about a year but anyone can do it - you just have to be determined.  Its all too easy to get weighed down by being too involved in the cleaning side, that is not what makes the money, its your sales that makes the money.  You need to organise work so efficiently, we could easily add another 2 to 3k of work on a month, simply because we are well organised, but to do that would mean us working longer hours - I'm happy to pay my guys a full week even if they finish at lunchtime on thursday because it means they are happy, and therefore unlikely to leave me - I make enough to keep me happy and can take time off whenever I want, the guys are reliable and more importantly, TRUSTWORTHY - I can leave them to it for a fortnight and know when I come back everything will be in order. 

The old adage of your staff being the most valuable asset is true, they have looked after me well so I'll continue to look after them (even if it means an extra day or two off here and there).

So to round off, if you want to take your business to the next level, work harder at getting new business, take on good staff - look after them and above all - be organised.

[RO-Sheen]

to answer the VAT question - most of our customers are VAT registered businesses, we also do a lot of work for governmental bodies.

with domestics we charge our price, add on the vat - therefore a £20 house becomes £24 etc - we have to pay the vat on these obviously.  As for customers not putting up with it - they don't have a choice, I have to charge it.

Richy - To answer how we got to the point we are at - simple, I went for government work straight off through a contact from my old work - now the work is tendered but he lets me know when the tenders are out but its open info for anyone.  It really was relentless for about a year but anyone can do it - you just have to be determined.  Its all too easy to get weighed down by being too involved in the cleaning side, that is not what makes the money, its your sales that makes the money.  You need to organise work so efficiently, we could easily add another 2 to 3k of work on a month, simply because we are well organised, but to do that would mean us working longer hours - I'm happy to pay my guys a full week even if they finish at lunchtime on thursday because it means they are happy, and therefore unlikely to leave me - I make enough to keep me happy and can take time off whenever I want, the guys are reliable and more importantly, TRUSTWORTHY - I can leave them to it for a fortnight and know when I come back everything will be in order. 

The old adage of your staff being the most valuable asset is true, they have looked after me well so I'll continue to look after them (even if it means an extra day or two off here and there).

So to round off, if you want to take your business to the next level, work harder at getting new business, take on good staff - look after them and above all - be organised.

Great advise, Thanks Alan. I'm currently going through the transition of working solo to employing. I took on someone at the beginning of April on a one day a week basis but would like to have him full time and in a van training up someone by next spring while i train up someone else. Your £6k per van is what im aiming at so looks like im on the right track. is it ok if I send you an occasional email to run things past you in the future? Im at info@ro-sheen.co.uk
Thanks

Adie

[alanwilson]

yeah no problem, I'll save your email (I'm changing my broadband end of next week to talk talk so I'll have a new email address then)

once I get my new email address I'll email you then you'll have my email.

[RO-Sheen]

Thanks mate

[colin purewater]

yeah no problem, I'll save your email (I'm changing my broadband end of next week to talk talk so I'll have a new email address then)

once I get my new email address I'll email you then you'll have my email.

WARNING!!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!!!
bad move dont go to talk talk, ive wasted hours of my life on the phone to mumbi trying to sort out there mistakes and i do mean hours, once it was 2 and a half hours because thay had billed me twice for same bill,
which then happened every month for the next 5 months,debt letters the lot!
and thats not the  end of it  (the broad band it painfully slow)
it makes my BLOOD BOIL just thinking about it
my contracts up with them in6 weeks were planning a party to celebrate
its cheap but theres a reason why
thanks colin