[williamx]

These are the WHAD directives for window cleaners from the HSE web site, I bet that no window cleaner in the country adheres to them on every single job they do.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

Like you said it is a Recommendation not a rule.

Car manufacturers make cars that can travel 200mph yet they don't say that you have to travel this fast.

at the moment there is no law that stops me from working at this height.

There is no law to stop people using ladders, you don't use them but think you have a right to tell others that they shouldn't?

You are using equipment in a way not recommended by it's manufacturer, you are contradicting yourself here matey.

No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first.


The crunch will come when someone falls and gets injured or killed. you then will be asked to explain why you did not use a pole or even wfp if it was an option.

The same applies to me, I would have to explain how and why I thought this was the safest method to clean that property.

Even though I do not now use ladders (why should I if I don't need to) but when I first started 32 years ago I did, and they weren't your lightweight "ali" ones either, I also had to carry and these to my round as well, because I did not have transport.

But I can tell you this, if I was aware of the wfp system then, I would never have used a ladder

The crunch will also come when there is an accident using a pole in the way you do, you'll be on your own with no manufacturer support, even if it snaps due to a manufacturing fault because you haven't followed the manufacturers recommendations.

It seems no one wants to hear or clarify this situation, rather just brush it under the carpet like it was in another thread some time ago. I personally think it's a very dodgy situation & if an accident did happen it would land the operator or owner of the company in trouble.

In your shoes I'd be more worried about this than anything to do with others using a ladder.

[williamx]

Proving you have put in place safety procudures then you are covered, if one of my poles snapped at height and I have had one do this, the broken pole fell down into the safety zone I have placed around my working area.

I always look on "Murphys Law" when I do anything.

[idealrob]

"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."

There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.

As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system,  and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week

idealrob

[gerard mcmanus]

The 30 min thing is just unrealistic, thats why people dont follow it. Also it does nothing to prevent someone falling from a ladder.

I see the you do anything enough you could become complacent but in that case, we should drive a car for more than 30 mins. Pilots and captains of ships will have to take breaks every 30 mins.

Come on, inst that just another example of why we need realist clear rules that cant be misinterpreted.

Its the whole thing again, 30 mins per rack or per job, not clear and not realistic.

[williamx]

 Pilots and captains of ships will have to take breaks every 30 mins.

Come on, inst that just another example of why we need realist clear rules that cant be misinterpreted.

Its the whole thing again, 30 mins per rack or per job, not clear and not realistic.

Pilots don't fly the planes, computers do, yet they still have to take rest breaks when the co pilot takes over

[gerard mcmanus]

"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."

There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.

As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system,  and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week

idealrob

There is way more cost impliations than that. Who is only going to use one bag of resin per year, or one pole that last all, year. Wasn't  there a thread a while back about poles having to be changed every 3/4 months? Then what about the insurance cost, water cost, petrol costs. It all eats into profits that will put a strain of a business if they dont get more work to pay for the extra cost.

[idealrob]

"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."

There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.

As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system,  and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week


Its cost about £200 a year in costs, scrim wears out as do ladders, wash leathers and you can die or get seriously injured and as the advert for H & S says "shattered lives"
Its 2 days quicker. fact
what do you think of carpet cleaning, buying machines, detergents etc or a shop and rent , rates staff, running costs etc and you moan about £4 a week. it 2010 not 1910

get real

idealrob

idealrob

There is way more cost impliations than that. Who is only going to use one bag of resin per year, or one pole that last all, year. Wasn't  there a thread a while back about poles having to be changed every 3/4 months? Then what about the insurance cost, water cost, petrol costs. It all eats into profits that will put a strain of a business if they dont get more work to pay for the extra cost.

[williamx]

"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."

There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.

As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system,  and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week

idealrob

There is way more cost impliations than that. Who is only going to use one bag of resin per year, or one pole that last all, year. Wasn't  there a thread a while back about poles having to be changed every 3/4 months? Then what about the insurance cost, water cost, petrol costs. It all eats into profits that will put a strain of a business if they dont get more work to pay for the extra cost.

I have a pole that is 7 years old, my sl2 is almost 12 months so they are cost effective, insurance you don't need if you are a sole trader, but what makes you think that the insurance will pay up if the is a ladder accident, they will decline your claim while pointint to the WHAD.  There is a water cost if you are on a meter but not if you are not and as for petrol, well that effects everyone of us and it still kepts on rising and we still kept on trading.

[SteveAllan]

its about time we stopped going over and over this, seems to crop up every other week, mighty boring now, bloody groundhog day

[gerard mcmanus]

I was meaning vehicle insurance, if you tell your insurers over the phone that you have a 300ltr baffled tank in the back secured with straps, they may not cover you.

There was a thread a while back saying that insurers were insisting it be safety checked, i.e. a 10k ionics system.

that pole that lasted you 7 years would have costs more than £250 alone let alone anything else.

Also yes we have to deal with petrol but if you are carry 300 ltrs of water, your car will use allot more petrol than a trad window cleaner, also the vehicle will wear more, i.e. tyres etc.

I really don't want to go through all the pro and cons of trad and WFP again, only get across that they both have pros and cons and should go hand in hand.

And as for rules on using a ladder, it should be someone who will be realistic about what people can do within the economic restrains of there business. If we dont concider the economic implications, no one would be able to work. All jobs carry risk. Police men, traffic wardens, bin men, taxi drivers, construction workers, demolition contractors, on and on and on....

If you cant be sensible and realistic and most of all clear, there is no point trying to impose any rule.

[williamx]

I was meaning vehicle insurance, if you tell your insurers over the phone that you have a 300ltr baffled tank in the back secured with straps, they may not cover you.

My van insurance costs me £380 per year including pole/tools cover, they paid out £4300 this month on the accident I had in December.  They knew that the water tank was strap in because their expect inspected the van, in fact they did not query it.
There was a thread a while back saying that insurers were insisting it be safety checked, i.e. a 10k ionics system.

that pole that lasted you 7 years would have costs more than £250 alone let alone anything else.

It was a unger telepole cost less than £100

Also yes we have to deal with petrol but if you are carry 300 ltrs of water, your car will use allot more petrol than a trad window cleaner, also the vehicle will wear more, i.e. tyres etc.

I don't know about that but I am getting between 35 and 40 to the gallon and I have a 650 litre water tank

I really don't want to go through all the pro and cons of trad and WFP again, only get across that they both have pros and cons and should go hand in hand.

And as for rules on using a ladder, it should be someone who will be realistic about what people can do within the economic restrains of there business. If we dont concider the economic implications, no one would be able to work. All jobs carry risk. Police men, traffic wardens, bin men, taxi drivers, construction workers, demolition contractors, on and on and on....

If you can be sensible and realistic and most of all clear, there is no point trying to impose any rule.

[Clive McDonald]

its about time we stopped going over and over this, seems to crop up every other week, mighty boring now, bloody groundhog day

What i do, if it was me who started the thread, is have a good long say and then lock the topic so no one can contradict me.The problem with leaving it open is that there are about four people who want the last word.

[dazmond]

THREAD IS LOCKED!!