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gordons

  • Posts: 163
Help im really confused now
« on: May 20, 2005, 09:21:02 am »
Hi there thanks for answering my question on the new height law. People told me that it was still alright to use ladders up to a certain height but i then read a article by proffesional window cleaner magazine basically stating that if it is practicle to use a wfp system then you must do it that way instead of a ladder. I don't know what to beleive.

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2005, 09:27:52 am »
GORDON:thats about it Ive read the same article and with other sites Ive read they carnt all be wrong if there saying the same  or can they? if you need some sites to read pm me Iwill gladly give you the web address of some sites Ive looked at,then make up your own mind
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2005, 01:19:11 pm »
If your round is domestic then don't worry, just follow the correct procedures for ladder use.
If you can afford to do so, then go over to WFP, or at least start planning to do so.
Far more to it than meets the eye, but I for one would never go back to working off ladders.
But if you are happy to work off ladders then carry on, just get yourself clued up on what is considered safe practice.

Regards,


Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2005, 09:38:53 pm »
HS AVE MADE A RIGHT MESS OF IT ALL [NEW REGS] who ever put this load of regs together isnt fit to run a bananna rebublic
lone the EEC.iVE STUDIED THEM TILL THREE IN THE MORNING . still not sure but my credit cards on melt down trying to get a second system together,so Ill put it this way regs or no regs the customer preferes poles,so make your mind up and go for it,because as the falls from height decrease so will the laws for using ladders get tighter [me thinks] cus someones got to take the blame for the mixed up regs,and to save face these plonkers who sit in distance lands ave got to tighten the regs evenmore if the accidents dont fall,if they do fall they will be celebrating at the bar,maybe they will fall of a bar stool [next regs are born must have a harness when sitting on a bar stool and crash mats instead of carpets]
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

rosskesava

Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2005, 10:06:33 pm »
HS AVE MADE A RIGHT MESS OF IT ALL [NEW REGS] who ever put this load of regs together isnt fit to run a bananna rebublic


They know exactly what they are doing and it's the lot of the common man to think they don't. The newspapers pander to that view to sell papers and get the money from those who advertise in them and we all think Brussels is full of idiots.

These people in Brussels are not stupid.

They know how to impliment a law first of all by making it a bit hazzy so as we accept there is some strange type of rule but no one really knows what. Then when we are used to that and the fuss has died down, another new set of rules appears that are more specific and then, when we've accepted that, then the real business gets introduced.

The WAHD is a beginning. Within 15 years I reckon you'll need a licence to buy a ladder.

If you don't believe me, look at the history of garden fertilisers and pesticides and how those rules started from Brussels 15 years ago. Now almost all of them are banned.

Hi Gordons

Ian advise is good. Carry on using your ladder but always do it sensibly and use any safety aids available. There is as yet no law banning ladders.

Cheers

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2005, 10:18:06 pm »
TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ROSS:couldnt have put it better myself.
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2005, 10:38:43 pm »
If they are really serious about saving lives why don't they just ban all tobacco products?Dai

rosskesava

Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2005, 10:56:30 pm »
Hi Dai

I was reading an article a few days back that said if tea or coffee was to come out now then it would be banned as a type of narcotic.

It has to do with history and what went on the past when things were different to what they are now.

As for smoking, another veiw point to that is the wishes of the majority and who is in that majority. If the majority used ladders every day then there would be no WAHD especially if those who used them were the rich and famous, the wealthy, politicians and so on.

Like the thing about cannabis. It pickles peoples brains, causes 'A motivation syndrome' ( a lack of will to do things) has a well documented history about being not good for you and being more carcinogenic than smoking cigarrettes but has been down graded in terms of the law.

Also, how much tax does the taxman get from ladders compared to smoking?

It's all a mystery.

A ladder it not dangerous, it's how it is used that is the problem whereas smoking is but try to ban selling cigarrettes and there'd be a riots.

Ban unsecured ladders and a only few would go nuts.

Cheers

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2005, 11:53:14 pm »
maybe Ishouldnt but here goes *note this ROSS :
 timothy charles hatton
offence WINDOW CLEANER FELL WHEN HIS LADDER MOVED sustaining a broken hip
date of offence 13/9/01
fine 3,000 suquid
 costs 2,500 squid
offence premesis were accident happened OL16 4 HP
MORE
falure to report an accident at 47 Farm rd
                                                  westmoors
                                                     Ferndown
                                                      Dorset
offender CR CARPET AND WINDOW CLEANERS
FINE 1000 SQUID
 COSTS1,200 SQUID

SALTER CLEANING SERVICES
offence w/c fell from balcony when hand rail failed
total fine 2,500 squid
costs500
Curry &partners 3,500 squid fine
costs 2,500 squid

amazing what you can find out on these pices of plastic init
theres many more,al for everone to read
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2005, 09:34:44 am »
As I said in a previous post on this subject, the only time a prosecution may happen is if something bad has already happened.

Though I am stunned at the severity of the fine to an individual who falls off a ladder :o
Gaza, Your outline of details is very sketchy, could you not have posted a link to where you picked up that info?
It would be interesting to read the full details of such a court case.
Lets face it, to be off work with say a busted hip could well be enough to wipe out your business, then to be hit with £5,500 worth of fines and costs on top would bankrupt many.
It never fails to amaze me how I could go out and break into, say, a school, cause many thousands of pounds worth of criminal damage, rob the place and when caught get away with a fine of a couple of hundred quid and a couple of weeks of community service.
Fall off a ladder and your life is destroyed.

All accidents are avoidable......until you factor in the human element :-\
To be punished so severely for what may have been a moments inattention seems incredibly harsh.
What would happen if you slipped off the bottom rung of a ladder because your foot was slippery, perhaps you stood in some dog poo without realising it, you step on the ladder, your foot slips and you break your ankle, then as you fall you hit your head and fracture your skull (don't know about the dog poo bit but I know a carpenter who that happened to)
He could have been accused of complacency, would he too be punished with crippling fines I wonder??
Or perhaps his footwear was unsuitable for the job.
On a wet day, how many of you guys have had your foot slip off a rung when halfway up a ladder?
I have had that happen on more than one occasion. I have always had 2 hands on the ladder, but if you are climbing down the ladder, the slip occurs just as you are putting your full weight on the foot that is going to slip, your other leg is relaxing.
Therefore when you do slip, by the time the other leg, assisted by your hands gripping the ladder recover you, you will have gone down past 90 degrees on the leg that has to support you.
This incident is one I always find particularly scary, if you are completely unlucky you might lose your grip on the ladder, your one leg will fall through the rungs of the ladder and you will fall backwards, I absolutely shudder to think of the damage you will cause yourself, upside down, halfway up a ladder, your leg snapped in half and your body supported and trapped in place by that broken leg.
Can you imagine being in that situation around the back of a customers house? And no one in to hear your screams of agony.

Sod that for a game of soldiers :'(  As I got older, and having a tiny slip much like I just described (but recovering quite safely from) I would often envisage the consequencies should it go the other way, and how easily it could happen.
Regardless of H & S, you can adhere strictly to all guidelines and still have an accident such as described above.
Just a moments inattention and you could be stuck halfway up a ladder, upside down and suspended by a broken leg and utterly unable to help yourself and praying that someone will here your screams of agony...

Whenever I had those tiny slips, little accidents where nothing happened, the ladder slips out at the bottom, perhaps it slips an inch or two off a patio slab and catches on something, no harm done except your heart is in your mouth, but I always looked at what could have happened.

Wsn't H & S regs that got me to go over to WFP, it was the thought of the consequencies of what could happen to me should an accident happen, that instead of turning into nothing more than a minor heart thumping moment, should go wrong and I'd get horribly injured.
And with the thought that now I could also be prosecuted to within an inch of my fiscal life, I'm bloody glad I have done so :o

Hoping to play cricket this afternoon, if it stays dry enough....what if I top edge  a ball....it could go into my face....I could lose my teeth....shatter my cheekbone....I might misjudge a beamer...what if it hits me in the throat...What if I am the one bowling and I hit someone in the face....

Wonder when H & S will stop us playing with a hard ball?

Have a good weekend Y'all ;)


Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Comfort Sector

  • Posts: 63
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2005, 10:10:18 am »
Hi guys
This H&S data sheet might explain ladder use a bit better.

Regards Richard
Regards Richard McDade Comfort Sector Its only clean if its Blacklight Clean www.comfortsector.co.uk

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2005, 10:28:16 am »
Hi Richard,
Good document, I've read that one before and think it outlines things very well, in fact I probably have it dowloaded and saved in half a dozen different locations on my computer lol.

Regards,


Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

rosskesava

Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2005, 12:05:49 pm »
Hi Richard

yup. It is a good document - it's the one of the one's that the H & S people sent to me with a note saying that basiscally that document is the one to go by.

Hi Gaza

A link would be usefull.

The fines and costs do seem a bit high though and in my experience the H & S usually only take real action if anyone else was at risk or injured or if it was a case of blatant stupidy. Also there is no background to all the reason for the fines so it may not just be a case of being done for falling off a ladder.

Usually if the person injures themselves that is normally concidered punishment enough.

A window cleaner being fined for a handrail giving way? I would have thought that was the owners responsibility.

Still, odder things do happen.

I've added this later............

I've just read this

The Health and Safety Commission’s Enforcement Policy Statement sets out the circumstances in which HSC considers it is normally in the public interest to prosecute. We only expect employers to do what is sensible. Sensible health and safety is about managing risks, not eliminating them. Prosecution is normally reserved for the most serious breaches

http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/off03-04/index.htm#personal

Cheers

Ross

rosskesava

Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2005, 12:46:59 pm »
Hi Gaza again

I found the cases you mentions and you were dead correct if you'll excuse the pun. Although the fines were not given to the person who injured themselves but to the company responsible for their welfare.

http://www.hse-databases.co.uk/prosecutions/case/case_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=F100000656

The link to the web site is:-

http://www.hse-databases.co.uk/prosecutions/documents/

It's all there and interesting reading if you're into that type of thing.

Cheers

*foxman

  • Posts: 250
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2005, 09:52:59 am »
a article by proffesional window cleaner magazine basically stating that if it is practicle to use a wfp system then you must do it that way instead of a ladder. I don't know what to beleive.

As far as i'm aware, (maybe wrong) but that is not true, in fact as a business owner i could insist that my windows where cleaned with ladders as opposed to WFP and still be legal. Maybe i dont like the finish, or  my windows leak, or i dont like the water soaking the marble floor and causing a trip hazard etc.

Ladders haven't been banned and they can be used safely with the right safety precautions.

Sounds like the old scaremainer is in town........


gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2005, 07:27:24 pm »
Im afraid if you phoned me up to clean your windows and you refused to have wfp system used,then I wouldnt get the job would I?

If you employed someone who broke the regs then you may well find yourself in deeper than you thought you could get.

It is still your right to choose which method you use,but after seeing the pratices of some of the w/c around here,Im sure you would rather sit in your office watching the water run down the window,than watching a window cleaner falling past your window. MEANING I wouldnt do a job for a boss with this attitude towards someone elses safty like that.

Iwould sit down and have a chat,and give the facts why wfp are better at most jobs,also the safty side.ASK HIM IF GOT WIFE AND KIDS?,HE WILL BE GOING HOME TONIGHT TO,WELL EVERYONE HAS THAT RIGHT AS WELL.[PLAY THE GUILT TRIP]

Sign here mr bossman   [thats how I would deal with it] give them facts backed up with  more facts. and then I would call ROSS UP to get some more facts.

GAZA
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

rosskesava

Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2005, 10:48:51 pm »
As far as i'm aware, (maybe wrong) but that is not true, in fact as a business owner i could insist that my windows where cleaned with ladders as opposed to WFP and still be legal. Maybe i dont like the finish, or my windows leak, or i dont like the water soaking the marble floor and causing a trip hazard etc.

Hi Foxman

Basically, that is where WAHD falls down and that is where the real complication is and where all the muddle stems from.  It's a cross between absolute safety where there a re no injuries or death, and being practicle. That is the grey area that most miss.

To make a law or rule that stops companies from exploiting that fact while not being able to.

It's a question of degree.

Quote
Ladders haven't been banned and they can be used safely with the right safety precautions.

Hence to 6 metre guidline and the 9 metre rule.

Also, just out of interest, there is not one HSE prosecution for someone falling off a ladder. NOT ONE. Companies have been done but not the individual whether self employed or not and I suggest anyone who thinks or says otherwise to post any link saying so which proves it.

Sorry to write this to those who just think they are in the know, drop the subject unless what is posted is factual as afterall, that is best. There has been to many postings guessing at the issue and far too much worry by those who read such postings. It is simple, follow the WAHD guidlines.

Hi Gaza

Quote
If you employed someone who broke the regs then you may well find yourself in deeper than you thought you could get.

Quote
give them facts backed up with  more facts.

Sorry to ask, what do you mean by 'employed' and in what way would 'you' be 'in deeper than you thought'? And just what are the facts?

Cheers

Ross

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Help im really confused now
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2005, 12:30:02 am »
ROSS:DEEPER means  you are resposible for the safety of a sub contractor ,and if you employ them as a sub contractor and recieved a risk assessment and method statement Its your duty of care to make sure its adered to .

It was stated that as a boss he didnt want wfp system used ,so if a ladder was to be used eye bolts would have to be fitted and tested in side or out side of building.Just trying to be as proffesional as this boss who refuses to use wfp.

By putting someone at risk when an alternative method is avalailable,Im sure a boss would then start listening if a creditable arguement was put forward by a guy who is suppose to be looking for a contract.

Ross be carefull how you answer this post someone whos a God has just been quoted by myself in the last sentence.

 this boss  should listen to someone who knows what hes on about.

The facts are hse gov site re schedule 6

Ross if you want a risk assessment disc go to www.risk.assetskills.org.uk and pay 40 + squid for  it like Ive just done

 GAZA
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO