[Neil Jones]

Hi, i've been asked to go see a Karndean floor throughout the ground floor of a large house by a flooring company who I do a bit of work for. I saw the floor tonight and need some views on this.

From the floor fitter - He thinks the customer is being awkward and are not treating the floor correctly or cleaning it correctly. His view is that they are using the wrong product to clean the floor, they do this with the underfloor heating on and the area around the house is still like a building site and obviously there are still works on going in the house.

From the home owner - She is adament that she uses the Karndean Floor cleaner (which she showed me) and that she only ever uses the recommended dilution. She also says the underfloor heating is always switched off.

The homeowners concern is that in the hall (see pic) the floor is a different colour (cloudy), you can see it quite clearly, there are also lines and the odd bump (maybe poor fitting) (see other pic). The cloudy patches occur in different parts of the house but are worse in the hall. The homeowner tells me that when Karndean came out they said a few different batches of floor have been used, whether this makes a difference or not I don't know.
Karndean have had service master out who stripped the floor and left it with no finish, one of the managers at service master seemed adament you couldn't correct the issue and obviously had a disclaimer signed in regards to the cleaning.
The floor fitter has had a company out who the homeowner says was a caretaker at a school who threw neat stripper onto the floor straight from the bottle (I don't know the solution used) and then cleaned it, which made it worse. The homeowner says it has had a finish in the past but still looked cloudy.

Any one ever come across anything like this before?

Also, my opinion is that i believe she has been using the correct dilution and Karndean general cleaner, however its debatable about whether the underfloor heating has been turned off and I would say it isn't looked after brilliantly, they have a very small barrier matt at the front door (whihc is straight from a building site), they don't remove shoes, they have a dog and the back door area is very scratched.

Thanks

[Neil Jones]

[Neil Jones]

[Neil Jones]

On the scond picture below where the sunlight that is on the floor there is a horizontal line, a dip in the floor. There is also a bump around where im stood, like it's bubbled.

[Graeme Smith]

Neil I used to have a SM franchise, if the floor is cloudy it usually meant someone had stripped the floor and not neutralised the stripper which started to reactivate and act on the new polish. Or i have seen a floor stripped where part of the original was left on and sealed under the new polish. If the floor has been stripped and no polish applied its an issue with the floor itself. The cleaners that are supplied by amtico and karndean are neutral so would not act on the polish. Lumps bumps are do with what the sub floor looked like if it was prepared well on plywood the karndean should be flat. I know when there is hot central heating pipe too close to the surface it turns the floor brown, not cloudy. I can only see the pictures on my iPhone but there fitting faults. If the floor cloudy could be chemical damage as the house is a bit of building site? Do a test on the floor if you can't strip the polish it's probably the floor. Bit of nightmare might be a combination of the floor company and customer - usually found these kinds of jobs worth avoiding

[Jamie Pearson]

I am a bit busy at the moment but will reply later.

What are the two bottles on left is it Karndeans own stuff?

I assume thats NuLife Karndean & Amtico Polish on the doormat?

[Neil Jones]

Yes Jamie you're right, I got some on the training day. I didn't do a test though as I wanted a disclaimer first. I think after speaking with the floor fitter yesterday he's going to send me back to do the hall.
The cleaning chemical left for the house owner was Karndean standard floor cleaner and yes it is pH neutral so I'm told but it doesn't say on the bottle and they don't have a data sheet.

Graeme I agree I think it's been laid poorly, I'm not going to say this to the fitter though as he gives me the work, but I think he knows that. Do you think stripping the floor/neutralising and then applying a finish is likely to improve the situation?

[Graeme Smith]

If the floors cloudy  and it is not a polish problem and its the actual floor then no. Do a test room/patch offer them a solution that might work - don't make their problem yours. I think Jamie has a product which is of a matt appearance which might make the fitting faults less obvious. It was posted as a link on a thread I started on Karndean, its something I am going to use on a karndean when the customers ready. Its really worth doing a test patch or room to prove categorically that there is no polish left on that floor - I have found that what the customer tells you has happened prior to your involvement is not always strictly true. Strip it, neutralise it - check with litmus paper that its completely neutralised and 2 coats of polish - if that does not remedy it there's the answer.

[Neil Jones]

That's what I'll probably be doing. I know what you mean about you never know what you're told is true and I will always test.
If I can solve this then I know I will have two customers for life, and can achieve a big job ticket from both.

Thanks

[stuart mc]

ok sorry chaps, not a floor cleaner and I will not even begin to guess, however this caught my eye as I was chatting to a customer yesterday who fits Karndean flooring, and something in the OP caught my attention, she said she never turns the underfloor heating on while cleaning or something like that.

anyway never mind that, my customer was telling me that when the floor is first fitted the central heating/ underfloor whatever has to be left turned on for at least 24 hrs, if not it causes all sorts of problems that make it look like badly fitted or poorly laid floors.

probably no help what so ever just thought I would mention it

[Neil Jones]

I wonder why that is Stuart, interesting though, worth looking in to more.

[stuart mc]

I wonder why that is Stuart, interesting though, worth looking in to more.

he said something about it forcing the floor to expand making it nice tight fit, and if left cold when newly fitted it would do the opposite and cause all sorts of problems with gaps and fitting

[Len Gribble]

I’m no expert just don’t like being lumbered last time accused of a plumbing leak which pop the tiles 

I know wood flooring and carpets should be allowed to climates to the room environment vinyl new one on me

As for under floor heating wife mate got the same problem but wood she’s getting a fall refund

Karndean Designflooring is suitable for installing over under-floor heating systems, providing they have been insulated so that the surface temperature does not exceed 27°C (80°F). Your Karndean installer will need to ensure that your heating system is compatible with our flooring.

[sherco]

If it's anything like natural stone on a new heated screed then the screed has to gradually taken up to full temperature then let to cool down before an installation takes place due to lateral movement of the screed. We try to get customers to use an uncoupling membrane like this then lay Natural stone on top to stop any cracking due to screed movement.

[Len Gribble]

For one minute it looked like altro 

[premier floorcare]

first picture looks like 2 different tile finishes have been used the marked difference between the two areas looks to exact for it to be caused by any cleaning or stripping, clouding proberly caused by incorrect cleaning and sealing any dips bump lines or bubling in the floor is down to initial floor preparation, not to say that this is incorrect because it depends on the original subfloor condition and as they say there is only so much you can do !! how to rectify. me as far as the hall goes i would strip floor using propriety stripper as they say using 3m spp pad neautralise 2 coats Dr Shutz matt finish polish this should take out the minor scratches because the back area of the floor looks glossy there may be an issue with matching it in with the matt finish to the foreground and if it is 2 different tile finishes then it would be easier to match in using a semi gloss finish over the matt, bearing in mind gloss will highlight any irregularities and scratches in the floor surface best to discuss with customer first, just see how it looks after you have applied the matt finish, if it looks ok leave it at that but as i say think you will have to gloss over it. Hope this is of help.

[Neil Jones]

Yes thank you, I'm fairly certain they don't want a gloss finish. All I can do is strip the floor, neutralise and apply a finish, if its still there after that then there is nothing more i can do.