[andy east sussex]

right just been to see a massive rug it has very light animal urine stains and genral wear and tear wot prochem products would you reccomend i use on it any advise welcome thank you

[Mike Halliday]

as for the urine stains,  more than likely permanent.

if you insist on prochem products the pre-spray Gold & Liquid Woolsafe or Pure Clean.

but why limit your self to prochem.

[Lisa Wagner]

Chinese wool rugs are aggressively chemically washed with a chlorine-bleach mix, which as we all know, dissolves wool.

It also makes these rugs in particular super-sensitive to sun fade, permanent staining from acid sources (juice, soda, coffee, urine), and VERY reactive to any stain removers.

I have seen Coffee-Mate (the 2 part mix of hydrogen peroxide and ammonia) several times completely remove the original rug dyes from a Chinese rug - making it WORSE than the original ugly stain.

When I have Chinese rugs with pet stains, I always tell the clients that those stains are permanent, and that all I can do is remove the odor.

If they are not happy with that - then I don't clean it.

If they decide they can put furniture over the spot - then I clean it.

The point being, if I do something to make the stained area WORSE, then it goes from being THEIR stain to MY stain. And it's never anything other than an UGLY situation to handle.

Generally Chinese rugs have colorfast dyes - test this. And any neutral cleaner will do well for the cleaning process. Post photos if you'd like more specific suggestions.

Thanks!
Lisa

[peter maybury]

Long established urine stains can normally only be removed by bleaching. A large expensive chinese rug is not the thing to be practicing on. There are no longer general rules on  chinese rugs, as these days many are mass produced on a large scale using modern techniques years ago most were traditionally made. The traditionally made ones were works of art some containing 250,000 hand tied knot per sq mtr. Nowadays there are a lot of acrylic chinese rugs on the maket. If you become proficient with the use of peroxides etc there are few stains that you will not be able to remove and it will make the other carpet cleaners that have been to your customers before you look pretty useless by saying that it cannot be removed.
Peter Maybury

www.carpetcleanercardiff.com

[Lisa Wagner]

Just want to make a point to everyone that a large EXPENSIVE Chinese rug with pet urine stains becomes a large DAMAGED INEXPENSIVE Chinese rug.

These are permanent damage that devalues the rug...so if they want to keep their investment sound they need to stop letting it be a toilet for their pets.

And just because you may be able to strip away and bleach the stain does NOT mean there is not structural damage that remains (if you do use bleach there WILL be more structural damage because bleach dissolves the wool fibers... not a lot, but some...)

It's a good point though in dealing with clients because when they tell you it's an expensive rug, you need to correct them that is WAS an expensive rug. Pet urine damage always devalues a rug....and I've never known it to make it more valuable... unless maybe if Lassie did it...

Actually, had a client whose needlepoint had a wine stain that she did NOT want removed because Napoleon spilled it.

The needlepoint was made a a century AFTER Napoleon...time machine?

But I'm sure she paid more because of that story of the rug because of it...

People are strange...
Lisa

[peter maybury]

At the end of the day people expect us to get results and are willing to pay for that. It is your choice, you can learn to meet peoples expectations or you can lecture them on the subject and let somebody else take the customer. Customers who have been told by competitors how things can not be done tend to become loyal and good sources of business once you prove the others wrong.
I have renovated rugs with bleach 20 years ago that are still in use now, any argument about bleach being corrosive etc is just rubbish,
I have done what the customer required!

Peter

www.carpetcleanercardiff.com

[Lisa Wagner]

At the end of the day people expect us to get results and are willing to pay for that. It is your choice, you can learn to meet peoples expectations or you can lecture them on the subject and let somebody else take the customer. Customers who have been told by competitors how things can not be done tend to become loyal and good sources of business once you prove the others wrong.
I have renovated rugs with bleach 20 years ago that are still in use now, any argument about bleach being corrosive etc is just rubbish,
I have done what the customer required!

Peter

www.carpetcleanercardiff.com

Peter,

Bleach does dissolve wool - we use it all of the time as part of the fiber test to identify wool from other fibers. Watch for yourself, drop a strand of wool in a cup of Chlorox (chlorine bleach) - and it will bubble and slowly go away.

Now, it's not going to make a big hole in a rug (I've dumped straight Chlorox on a rug in a class to show them what it does and does not do)... and it can help strip out colors to make stains less apparent - but under the microscope, you ARE damaging those fibers.

I've used stripping agents and bleaches on rugs - but always with permission from the clients and acknowledgement that this is causing structural damage for the sake of better appearance, and have them okay that.

With Chinese rugs, which have already been heavily chemically washed with a chlorine mix before even being sold, these ones tend to be much, MUCH more sensitive.  If the urine stains were on an India rug, I'd play with bleach, with a Chinese wool 90-line rug - nope. That very stark dark and light direction, due to that chemical processing, and showing every mark I make on that field to improve the stained area, it's tough to hide your work... like working with velvet almost, you see those strokes.

That said...posting on a forum "hey just use some bleach" is dangerous advice. You may have experience with it, but I handle a lot of technical help with carpet cleaners who take their "spray it up" skills that work fine on installed carpet, that can lead to disasters on rugs.

So... perhaps you could ask for photos to be posted, and share your step by step "how to" for this particular cleaner, and he can see if he has a master hand at it as you do.

With Chinese new product from 1980s on - I don't mess with them. They are already structurally damaged from the chemical washing they had in China.

Thanks,
Lisa

[peter maybury]

Andy
you can decide yourself which advice to take using bleaches such as peroxide or sodium metasulphate does obviously involve risks and you do need to become proficient at it. I am very busy and do not have the time to teach you but I suggest you get a little bit of training. The training will only op;en up the horizons, it is then up to you to put in the time and find out the capabilities of the products.
I see my business as finding solutions to peoples problems, I see no benefit in telling customers that things cannot be done or telling them that things have been ruined by the manufacturing process or even commenting on the toilet habits of their pets. If a customer comes to me I do my utmost to solve that particular problem.  This involves conversation as to what value etc they put on the rug. If I am unable to help the customer in that specific situation I would like to be the first point of contact the next time they seek the advise of a carpet cleaner.
As regards the use of bleaches a good starting point would be just to using oxibrite - fibrebuff - fibre shampoo mix from prochem. Prochem have a very good technical dept that can give you advice. You can move on from there from working with product that take hour to get a result to working with products that take seconds to work.  You will not always be successful you do need to get people to sign disclaimers if you are venturing beyond certain realms. Unfortunately I am unable, like some on this forum to teach what they know about carpet cleaning to a monkey off the street in 15 minutes.  I cant be that clever can I ?
Anybody already using peroxides  that would like to discuss their experiences (heat acceleration etc) can contact me via one of my websites.

Peter Maybury

www.carpetcleanercardiff.com

[Lisa Wagner]

Andy
you can decide yourself which advice to take using bleaches such as peroxide or sodium metasulphate does obviously involve risks and you do need to become proficient at it. I am very busy and do not have the time to teach you but I suggest you get a little bit of training. The training will only op;en up the horizons, it is then up to you to put in the time and find out the capabilities of the products.
I see my business as finding solutions to peoples problems, I see no benefit in telling customers that things cannot be done or telling them that things have been ruined by the manufacturing process or even commenting on the toilet habits of their pets. If a customer comes to me I do my utmost to solve that particular problem.  This involves conversation as to what value etc they put on the rug. If I am unable to help the customer in that specific situation I would like to be the first point of contact the next time they seek the advise of a carpet cleaner.
As regards the use of bleaches a good starting point would be just to using oxibrite - fibrebuff - fibre shampoo mix from prochem. Prochem have a very good technical dept that can give you advice. You can move on from there from working with product that take hour to get a result to working with products that take seconds to work.  You will not always be successful you do need to get people to sign disclaimers if you are venturing beyond certain realms. Unfortunately I am unable, like some on this forum to teach what they know about carpet cleaning to a monkey off the street in 15 minutes.  I cant be that clever can I ?
Anybody already using peroxides  that would like to discuss their experiences (heat acceleration etc) can contact me via one of my websites.

Peter Maybury

www.carpetcleanercardiff.com

Sorry if I came off too harsh in that post Peter - I just like to lay out the facts to clients so they can make the informed decision. And after years now, they get their rugs cleaned every 18-24 months, and they call us when the pets have accidents right away, instead of waiting...because they know the damage risk, and the health risk.

Sometimes people just need to know more before they change their response. And if my turning away a rug because it is a "toilet" for their dogs (and we turn away a few a year) means they will rethink what they are exposing their families to (because pet sewage is not "clean")...then in the long run it's better for them, right? Even if I do not get the sale.

But I agree with you...being the problem solver is the ultimate goal for all of us...

Thanks, you made me think about a few things differently...

Lisa

[Peter Sweeney]

This is an interesting disussion and one that perhaps highlights some of the differences between the States and the UK.

I was once told that everyone's middle name in the U.S. is sue.

In America there i much more pressure to ensure you are not exposing yourself legally and if for example Lisa took Peters approach on all her rugs the chances are it would end up costing her at some point. We don't quite have the same culture here and Peter's approach is a more practical approach but then it can afford to be because there is not the same likelyhood that a customer will want to take him to court just because he was trying to do his best for them.

I too use similar processes as Peter but always explain this to customer and have never had someone say no but it does of course cover me.

Pete

[peter maybury]

I am not talking about or doing anything that I can be sued for, I am talking about being professional and educated in what you are doing.
The bacteria in urine etc can be neutralized. A lot of urine stains can be removed with bleaches, rather that saying something cannot be done it would be more honest to say that you cannot be bothered or you are not capable of doing the work.
I picked up a sheep skin rug  yesterday that is covered in urine stains,  the rug itself is not worth what I would normally charge to do, but I have started to treat so that I can post photos later in the week to show what can be done in these situation. Not a chinese i know but it came along nonetheless.

Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com