[Ian Lancaster]

Hi all,

Trying to drag myself into the 21st century

I have one customer who pays by "direct transfer" into my business account.  All I had to do was give her my bank sort code and account number and her payment appears on my statement each month.

Questions:

How safe is it to give this information out?  Each time you write a cheque, of course, this info is on it, so it can't be that sensitive.

What do you need to tell the customer so they can just go ahead with the arrangement with the minimum of fuss?

How do you get them to add a unique reference to their payment, which will show up on your statement so you can identify the payment?

Just tried asking my bank all this - after being passed from one department to another for about 15 minutes, finished up talking to my "business bankers answer service"

[pingu]

Hi Ian...your setup sounds great....

Ok...all but 6 off my customers pay via internet banking....

After each clean they get a card with the date of the next but on that card my bank details are there..these are the account number, sort code and the location of the bank i.e 'Sittingbourne'.

Here in Holland when you make a internet payment the receiver gets the address and post code of the sender & their name.

But I also ask that each customer put their postcode and house number as a reference in the 'free text field'..this makes it very easy to trace each payment.

This is also a great way of proving who has and has not paid...I have yet to have any problems with this type of payment.....my accountant love's it too.

Hope this helps.

Dave.

[Ian Lancaster]

Thanks Dave

[Helen]

Hi all,

Trying to drag myself into the 21st century

I have one customer who pays by "direct transfer" into my business account.  All I had to do was give her my bank sort code and account number and her payment appears on my statement each month.

Questions:

How safe is it to give this information out?  Each time you write a cheque, of course, this info is on it, so it can't be that sensitive.

What do you need to tell the customer so they can just go ahead with the arrangement with the minimum of fuss?

How do you get them to add a unique reference to their payment, which will show up on your statement so you can identify the payment?

Just tried asking my bank all this - after being passed from one department to another for about 15 minutes, finished up talking to my "business bankers answer service"

Giving out the info is not safe, but this is how we do it!
Customers have to request this info by e-mail, giving full name and address. We e-mail back details and ask them to reference each payment with their surname and first line of address. They set it up as pay another person. You do have to watch out for the ones who set up standing orders without telling you! We ask them to control the payment themselves each clean, just in case we are late or worse cannot get to them.
For safetys sake we only keep a minimum amount of money in that account and transfer regularly to a "Holding A/C" which of course we only have the details to that one! The accountant is ok with this as everything still shows in and out of the business account anyway.
At point of clean they get the payment request with wording of please pay as previously arranged within 7 days of clean. 7 days comes and if no payment you can chase money by e-mail instead of those costly phone calls.
Hope this helps
 

[Helen]

also, it helps to keep the bank charges to a minimum as well 

[pingu]

Helen why is it not safe?

I used to work within the IT Security field for a major betting company and an account number and sort code are not yet enough to steal from an account.

They can put in as much as they like though :-)

but then again the bank I use do give us an additional gizmo pad key...which when I take money out/move it around...requires my full account number/ issue number....to get into the account and then when in...if I move money I have to enter my pin I then get a code which is then typed in the the pc for that transaction...I am sure many UK banks offer these additonal lines of defence..


cheers
Dave.

[Helen]

Helen why is it not safe?

I used to work within the IT Security field for a major betting company and an account number and sort code are not yet enough to steal from an account.

They can put in as much as they like though :-)

but then again the bank I use do give us an additional gizmo pad key...which when I take money out/move it around...requires my full account number/ issue number....to get into the account and then when in...if I move money I have to enter my pin I then get a code which is then typed in the the pc for that transaction...I am sure many UK banks offer these additonal lines of defence..


cheers
Dave.

After a friend having his account emptied when he thought he had all his banks line of defences and then they had the cheek to say they would not investigate, I count nothing as being totally secure anymore. The way we do it, if someone does manage to access then to be honest if they want the small amount of money we leave in there they are sad. Also the holding account has a high interest rate. so earns us more on our earnings for nothing well just a little bit of tax to be paid, but almost nothing!

[WCE]

Helen why is it not safe?

I used to work within the IT Security field for a major betting company and an account number and sort code are not yet enough to steal from an account.

They can put in as much as they like though :-)

but then again the bank I use do give us an additional gizmo pad key...which when I take money out/move it around...requires my full account number/ issue number....to get into the account and then when in...if I move money I have to enter my pin I then get a code which is then typed in the the pc for that transaction...I am sure many UK banks offer these additonal lines of defence..


cheers
Dave.

After a friend having his account emptied when he thought he had all his banks line of defences and then they had the cheek to say they would not investigate, I count nothing as being totally secure anymore. The way we do it, if someone does manage to access then to be honest if they want the small amount of money we leave in there they are sad. Also the holding account has a high interest rate. so earns us more on our earnings for nothing well just a little bit of tax to be paid, but almost nothing!

I know what you mean about nothing being secure anymore. It seems as technology progresses there are more and more security breaches instead of less. Virtually ever week there is news of more data being lost. This week of course we reached a new height though - Nat west managing to sell that laptop with over 1 million customers details on. My dad was saying that the place where he works (they work for the armed forces) have to burn the hard drives of the computers they have finished with, you'd think the banks would be the same but no, they just stick it on ebay. Still £35 for a laptop with all that info on - someone got a bargain!

[Jewel Cleaning]

I thought that to set up a direct debit for something, you only needed sort code and account number.


It would have to be a stupid criminal to do this though, as their details would be linked to the direct debit from your account, so tracing them shouldn't be a problem.


BUT: Do you really want the hassle of having to track them and get your money back, especially if you haven't noticed for a while and they manage to get away with quite a lot.


I certainly wouldn't trust the bank's security that much; I've had cheques clearly payable to me, stolen in post and paid into someone elses account.  The cashier is supposed to check the name on the cheque... but they don't often!


Just my opinion though.  I can see the benefits of online transactions though.  Maybe Paypal?  but they take a cut.

Maybe FWC ought to put together a charge-free secure online payment facility for window cleaners?


Regards,

Jay.

[[GQC] Tim]

Helen why is it not safe?

I used to work within the IT Security field for a major betting company and an account number and sort code are not yet enough to steal from an account.

They can put in as much as they like though :-)

but then again the bank I use do give us an additional gizmo pad key...which when I take money out/move it around...requires my full account number/ issue number....to get into the account and then when in...if I move money I have to enter my pin I then get a code which is then typed in the the pc for that transaction...I am sure many UK banks offer these additonal lines of defence..


cheers
Dave.

After a friend having his account emptied when he thought he had all his banks line of defences and then they had the cheek to say they would not investigate, I count nothing as being totally secure anymore. The way we do it, if someone does manage to access then to be honest if they want the small amount of money we leave in there they are sad. Also the holding account has a high interest rate. so earns us more on our earnings for nothing well just a little bit of tax to be paid, but almost nothing!

Helen, that would have not been because of that, most likely his card was copied at a petrol station or something.

Account number and sort code are not enough to steal money! WAKE UP ENGLAND, you are living in the stone age regards to these things. In the Netherlands everyone pays by Bank transfer, wish I still lived there just because of that! 

[WCE]

I thought that to set up a direct debit for something, you only needed sort code and account number.


It would have to be a stupid criminal to do this though, as their details would be linked to the direct debit from your account, so tracing them shouldn't be a problem.


BUT: Do you really want the hassle of having to track them and get your money back, especially if you haven't noticed for a while and they manage to get away with quite a lot.


I certainly wouldn't trust the bank's security that much; I've had cheques clearly payable to me, stolen in post and paid into someone elses account.  The cashier is supposed to check the name on the cheque... but they don't often!


Just my opinion though.  I can see the benefits of online transactions though.  Maybe Paypal?  but they take a cut.

Maybe FWC ought to put together a charge-free secure online payment facility for window cleaners?


Regards,

Jay.

No one will offer a free service like that. it cost them money. Maybe they could offer a cheaper alternative but free no way they'd go bust!

[Helen]

Tim
Helen, that would have not been because of that, most likely his card was copied at a petrol station or something.

More than likely it was or from a on line card payment etc etc

Account number and sort code are not enough to steal money! WAKE UP ENGLAND, you are living in the stone age regards to these things. In the Netherlands everyone pays by Bank transfer, wish I still lived there just because of that! 

We pay most things on line and a lot of our customers pay us on line, so guess we don't need to wake up Was just saying how we do things so as to safeguard our money as much as we can and to make a little extra on it. As to living in the stone age, the country is not and that is why there are so many security issues and scams. As technology evolves more and more there will always be the "one" who has to beat it.
If you liked the Netherlands so much then why aren't you still there?

[pingu]

Helen we have a quota system as The Netherlands is such a small dot of land....I wanted to come in so he had to leave...thems the rules

Dave...

[Helen]

Helen we have a quota system as The Netherlands is such a small dot of land....I wanted to come in so he had to leave...thems the rules

Dave...

Shame we don't have that system here

[simon123]

If you liked the Netherlands so much then why aren't you still there?
 Nice one Helen LOL

[windowwashers]

Tim
Helen, that would have not been because of that, most likely his card was copied at a petrol station or something.

More than likely it was or from a on line card payment etc etc

Account number and sort code are not enough to steal money! WAKE UP ENGLAND, you are living in the stone age regards to these things. In the Netherlands everyone pays by Bank transfer, wish I still lived there just because of that! 

Helen,

Can I ask how you account for online payments being made against work completed

Ian

We pay most things on line and a lot of our customers pay us on line, so guess we don't need to wake up Was just saying how we do things so as to safeguard our money as much as we can and to make a little extra on it. As to living in the stone age, the country is not and that is why there are so many security issues and scams. As technology evolves more and more there will always be the "one" who has to beat it.
If you liked the Netherlands so much then why aren't you still there?

[Neil Williams]

"More than likely it was or from a on line card payment etc etc"

Back to basics. Nothing is 100% secure, as soon as a bank brings in a new defence some smart a-se in a 3rd world country works out in 2 nano seconds how to defeat it.
What we are talking about here are our customers. You give them 2 simple details and they can pay you. How stupid would they have to be, to be part of a fraud system that empties your bank account? Basic Police enquiries would be based on who knows what about your account?
As said, open an account purely for people to pay into. If that get's raided it's a minor inconvenience compared to an all out attack on your main account.

I use a single credit card for all internet purchases. If that gets interfered with at least I can live with that until it gets sorted. If I used my main bank account card then I'd be in deep pooh if that got raided.

[David Slater]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

So I asked my bank for some guidance -

Me: I want to use standing order and online banking. Would it be safe for me to include my sort and account number on invoices drooped through customers doors so they could pay me online?

Bank Manager: ah, well, that really down to you I suppose

Me: ermmm, I'm not asking your advice on how I should get paid, I'm asking whether it is SAFE for me to use that sort of system?

Bank Manager: well, I suppose it wouldnt cause a problem but I suppose theres always the possibility that your account could be accessed

Me: so whats the answer? should I include my details or not?

Bank Manager: its very much down to the individual

Me: thank you so much. You've been a great help  : 


I like Helen's idea. Get customer to confirm via email and you send your details AFTER you have established who they are.

Me and Pingu are obviously using the same bank because I have that little 'black box' as well!!

I know for sure we cannot set up Direct Debits. These are only available to companies with several millions of pounds turnover each year (such as BT, British Gas) due to the Direct Debit protection they offer.

We have to use online transfer or Standing Order mandates.

[pingu]

I have to admit I am comfortable with the risks of having customers putting money into my account using the information of account number and sort code....

But if people of going to be twitchy about information could I suggest you may want to start approaching comapnies that you have dealt with in the past such as Tesco's etc and aks for the information they hold about you....if you have used loyalty cards with them...be prepared to be shocked at the sheer amount of information they have about you.

Unless you run cash only and do not enter the digital world in any sense there is so much information about you held on computers around the world ...you will look the information such as bank accout details and sort code as nothing of value.

Like I said...a few years back I used to work in IT Security, within this realm the company I worked as part of my function we would collate information abount people in order to collect debts and obtain information that would be 'helpfull' in bringing the debt to resolution.

Its not so much the bank account information that on its own has the potential to cause you issues it's the other information that can be obtained to make up a 'package'....now this is when the fun really starts...

Have a nice weekend....

Dave.

[Helen]

Helen,

Can I ask how you account for online payments being made against work completed

Ian

Spreadsheet with customer details etc, set up for whole year.
Daily work logged against such with date. If paid box marked green, if not box marked red.
Check bank statement on line.
Find payments in.
Mark off on spreadsheet to green the payers
Enter payments on "accounts in" ledger

Think that is what you meant, if not ask away