[Mrs Nicholls]

Hi All

Just wanted to pick your brains about an issue that has cropped up with us and a particular cleaner.

We are at the end of our tether with her. She rule breaks, lies to us, gives us ultimatums and all this with a smarmy butter wouldnt melt look.

her latest escapade was yesterday, she collected keys for her usual job, went to her 3.5hr job, stayed for 2 hours then buggered off with the keys, leaving me having to track her father down to make sure someone was home for us to go over and pick up the keys from her house as she was off galavanting out of town. this is not the first time it has happened.

at this moment in time she has an office swipe access card, which as she is out of town she cant return to me, and she is ignoring our calls and txts.

She lied to both of us about what time she finished this job, and this job is one which is looking ropey as her conduct and performance (allegations of theft and use of clients personal equipment)  is already tipping the balance for us to lose this contract which neither us nor the client wants.

i certainly dont trust her anymore, i know disciplinary procedings need to be followed, but i feel that this is like the straw that broke the camels back.

can i suspend on pay, investigate her conduct, and then if found as guilty as she looks, dissmiss her?

Thanks
Lisa

[rafferty]

lisa .. a lot depends on how long she has worked for you .. if she is a newbie did you state to her that she is on a probationery period say 6 weeks . if she is i would have thought you could easily terminate the contract with her .. also if you feel what she has done is very serious you can suspend her till you have looked into the matter thoroughly .. good luck

[Mrs Nicholls]

hi,
Shes been with us 4 months, finished her probationary period although she did have some conduct issues against her, we thought it had resolved, but she has just got worse.

I have drafted a letter to her stating that we would like her to come ion for a meeting to discuss some conduct points.

*Failure to return keys when requested
*Leaving jobs early without authorisation and lying to us both about the actual clean / clean time (she must think we dont talk to each other !)
which means if we didnt catch her, she would have not only falsified info, she would have falsified her timesheets therefore we would be hung by our clients for overcharging.
*Causing problems for others by leaving early cos supervisor pops in 15 mins before clean time ends to ensure work to standard, take laundry, quick stock check etc, supervisor cant do her job if staff not there, when staff have the keys and not returned them when they should.
*AWOL more than once
*Accused of theft and use of clients personal property
*Poor standards even after training and refreshing etc client threatening to cancel contract.
*Ultimatums - if you dont give me today as sick day im not coming in anyway (she rec she had flu but she was fine the next day at college and work!)

Other instances where something has gone on, but we never know what as its hard to find out anything in out of hours contract cleaning.

[BDCS]

You must follow the disciplinary procedure as outlined in the employee handbook presented alongside her contract ! when her case is heard by the disciplinary panel she will be found to be guilty of gross misconduct and dismissed - in other words you don't want her so get rid of her just prove you have followed proceedure

[Mrs Nicholls]

so if we do an investigation, and suspend her while we do this, meet with her to take her side of things, then when we have seen all the evidence we have another meeting to say she has broken rules and her service is no longer required, we have covered the requirements? is that ok?

i know its got to be done right, so dont want to mess it up.
thanks

[steve doyle]

cant you sack her immediatly  for "gross misconduct" without notice pay?.  I also think you can sack any employee in the first 12months regardless if you pay up the notice period (claims of unfair dissmisal cannot be made within the first 12 months (i think!))?

The only other thing to check is that you dont contradict the terms in the contract.

I would just tell her that she is no longer required, she will be paid up to the end of the week and goodbye.

I am going to say this out of respect for you lisa,
Having read and replyed to several of your posts in the past it seems as though your staff have zero respect for you. Your not managing your business or staff and You  constantly seem to have a problem with discipline in your staff.

In the case of this girl for example, She should have been given a verbal warning early on, then written and sacked if things didnt improve alternatively her trial period should of been extended or she failed it and is let go .With the list of "offences" is it any wonder your in this position? why on earth  let things get to this stage?

It strikes me as strange that this girl can be so bad in only a few months, Have you got a bad apple undermining you? Who is it? make an example and start to get rid of them following your procedures.

I think it might be of benefit for you to look for some management training to give you the skill's to do the job better. As i see it, your staff are running you and your business (badly) and it sounds like your customers are not getting what they pay for and will probably leave. You will then be left with failing business and a poor reputation, and your staff will just p155 off when it suits them.

If you have procedures, go through them with your staff and if they are not stuck to give a verbal warning/ written warning and so on. When you show them you mean business all this bollox will stop. And If staff say they will leave, just remind them to put it in writing for you! You should not be bothered by anyone threatening to leave nor should you show that you are.

This is YOUR business lisa its not a sodding co-operative, you decide what happens. If you dont like whats going on, do something about it, if your staff dont like it toughpoop!

It seems to me that your a very caring and considerate person and maybe its part of the problem ( no place in business).
I have given you a slight kick up the jacksi lisa, hopefully you take it as its meant (with the best of intentions) and can now go and pass it on to anyone you feel deserves it and get back to running your business.

kindest regards

steve

[Fox]

Hi Lisa

You can dismiss her for gross misconduct based on the behaviour you have listed, you can dismiss an employee in the first twelve months anyway with notice if you feel they are not suitable for the position, they can take you to tribunal for unfair dismissal in this time but it is restricted to things such as discrimination, harrasment etc you will have to look up the list (I have posted several times on the legal requirements for dismissal so do a search).  You will have to write a letter inviting person for interview, they can bring a rep with them, the sooner this is set the better, you can suspend with full pay (unless you go for gross mis) until then.  If they don't turn up you have to set another date (even if they don't tell you) and put that it will be carried out without them if they don't show.  You can then give them the decision the same day after the meeting.  They will have 10 days to appeal.

Listen to Steve about toughening up.  In my opinion too many cleaning companies put up with 'bad' behaviour because they are worried the work won't get done at all if the cleaners walk.  I understand this mentality but it really is best to have a couple of 'hiccup' cleans where you are covering as best you can than keep paying useless staff.  I rarely clean anymore but if someone was taking the p I would rather clean 24/7 than put up with it (and have!).

You must follow the law when disciplining, but when a cleaner really is that disruptive to your business there is no problem with sendng them home without pay because of it and following the procedure from there.

Fox 

[Mrs Nicholls]

thank you for your replies, no offence taken steve.

We are both at fault in some respects i think. My biz partner undermines me, shes the bad apple and ive had to even discipline her ! (we have an agreement / procedure to do this).

I say one thing but she doesnt relay it back down the line (her position is supervisor).

[Mrs Nicholls]

I agree it shouldnt have been left to get this bad, and she has been given informal warnings and its just got worse in the space of a few weeks.

We called her in for her appraisal but she said couldnt come cos doing voluntary work. Found out later she was arranging a shopping trip for that afternoon with her friends instead.

total lack of respect. Anyway, i'm just waiting for a report back from the offices she meant to have cleaned on Saturday, and to see if she turns up later today to discuss her conduct, if not i'll take it as she resigned. Shes totally lost my trust, cant have someone like that on my team.

By the way i know who the bad apple is, and she is supposed to be my partner in crime, but doesnt really care apart from when it comes to money. (thats a whole other post) 

[Mrs Nicholls]

another development,

she has now said she has a doctors note for an illness, and will bring it over asap. This after she has been out of town all weekend and unable to return any keys or access cards etc.

do i have to rearrange the meeting due to this sick note? she doesnt qualify for sick pay, so should i remove the suspension and make it unpaid sick instead?

Thanks
Lisa

[Mrs Nicholls]

she thinks she is entitled to sick pay, lel is £87 per week on average isnt it? her average week is between £60 and £80, so not entitled is she?  :

[steve doyle]

Do you want rid of her yes or no?

If yes,

take her sick note, tell her you will pay what she is owed when its been worked out and tell her she is no longer required (pay her notice, but you dont want her to work it, who knows what she will do).

It really is that simple, job done!

[Mrs Nicholls]

no sick note has been brought in, just the other things we requested, it was a struggle to get them back. So, im back to suspended with pay.

said she couldnt come to meeting because of tonsillitis, but shes been to college and no sick note.

we spoke to her and her voice is fine, she put the phone down when realised who we were.

Its turned in to a bitter battle, something which i didnt want to do but she brought it upon herself for digging and digging deeper holes.

Shes refusing to speak to us now, so i'll send her a letter stating services no longer required.

Thanks for the help and support today xx

[steve doyle]

like you say lisa, its gone to far with lies and deception, you can only do as you said and send the letter, sooner she is out the better,

if you want to keep the rest on their toes (including your partner) keep it quiet, dont tell others what your going to do and when they find out (and she will text them) shes been sacked their attitudes may also improve.


glad your on the up hun,

steve

[rafferty]

lisa i am sure you are doing the right thing there .. good luck
  rafferty

[Neil Williams]

[quote My biz partner undermines me, shes the bad apple and ive had to even discipline her ! (we have an agreement / procedure to do this).

I say one thing but she doesnt relay it back down the line (her position is supervisor).

Lisa, I would now take this opportunity of getting this sorted out OK so your biz partner is the supervisor on this contract and you have other staff working on it?.Personally,although you will have to put yourself out, I would turn up at the start of the next shift and call a meeting. Start by saying that you will not be taking up much of their time and that you will help with the work on this occassion. Then explain what has gone on with this other cleaner and that because of her actions you had no choice but to sack her.I would then go on to say that the standards on this contract have to improve, starting now. Get them working andtake you biz partner to one side, tell her that she has to improve, or this is notgoing to work out and you will have no choice but to buy her out. You also have to carry out spot checks yourself and turn up at different intervals and at different times of the shift. You have to take control and perhaps make decisions that you don't want to. If you don't you will lose this contract and maybe more besides. Get tough this is your livelihood don't let others ruin it for you.

[Mrs Nicholls]

hi neil

Thanks for your reply, im out cleaning with the staff this week due to supervisor on hol this week (my hol next week), and its already freaked them out that we have become more authoritive and carried out what we did, seems to have pulled in the ranks.

just hope it carries on. Supervisor is general supervisor of all staff its her main job besides cleaning at some jobs when we are short staffed. We have had a meeting about her conduct, seems to be doing general things better now but she really lacks in some areas, im going to put her on a supervisors course i think, thats the best way forward for her.

I know we all have probs, and this is a massive learning curve, but we'll get there xx