[lands]

I used Chemspecs leather & conditioner for the first time today and was impressed with the results. I did find however that on certain spots ie the most used areas (ie. arms etc) that there was the slightest of blistering. I changed from using a oven cleaning wire brush (just kidding).

Am I right in thinking that this is due to the already worn down dye? I did run the usual tests and it never happened on unused lightly used areas. I continuedly lightly with my terrys and the customer was very pleased.

Just wanted to check my understanding for future ref and thought that as we don't get many leather related threads it would make a refreshing change to talk about something else.

Pete

[brights cleaning]

i use the Alltec one sometimes and that does the same
the one from LTT, i find the best and the safest, really easy to use as well
did a cream leather suite today with it and it came up brlliant, not perfect but as far as the custy was concerned "brilliant" He said.

[lands]

Colin

Does that come as a combined cleaner/cond. You got a number for LTT

Cheers
Pete

[brights cleaning]

judy@LTTsolutions.net

she will help you with all leather cleaning aspects

[LTT Leathercare]

Hi Pete
Our products are not a combined product (although we do have one). We have a cleaner and protector.  Conditioners are not required.

You can call me on 01423 881027.  Probably be able to explain the blistering to you as well if you can give me a bit more information.

Cheers
Judy

[lands]

Ta Judy,

Will give you a call next week.

Pete

[*paul_moss]

i use the Alltec one sometimes and that does the same
the one from LTT, i find the best and the safest, really easy to use as well
did a cream leather suite today with it and it came up brlliant, not perfect but as far as the custy was concerned "brilliant" He said.

Colin come and spend a couple of hours with me on site and I wil guarentee to show you how to get perfect 

[Mike Halliday]

if i could tag a question onto this topic.

I have bought a leather 'antiqued' chesterfield suite, the 3 cushions on the settee are in need of a re-spray of the top colour ( a deep burgundy).

I'm not confident in my colour mixing and don't have the kit, Judy could I FedEx the cushions to you and pay you to do them or if i send you a sample of the leather could you colour match it for me and send me the right colour.

Mike

[lands]

I would myself Paul but there are too many sheep up yr way. It would be like a junkie walking through a poppy field

[carpetguy]

MIke why don't you phone Shaun......................antiqued, is the easiest to work on and Shaun has done the relevent training.

rob

[Roger Koh]

Dear Forum,

Re: Leather Cleaner & pH Value

Dear Forum,

Re: pH Value and Leather Cleaners

As Pete wants to see discussion on leather that is more refreshing, I hope my contribution helps.

Some of you may have seen this posting in another forum already; it is about a “scary experience”!

This is my cut and paste from that forum:

Leather cleaning products that have a pH value beyond 3 and 5 either way, especially specialty spotters when used should be neutralized correspondently.

Products available for such safe neutralization is acidifier1.8™ and basifier8.5™.

A classic example of acid/alkali neutralization process equation may be express as Caustic Soda + Hydrochloric Acid = Salt (sodium chloride) + Water.

Why leather cleaning products pH values have to be between 3 and 5?

In leather, almost 30% of contents are chemistry the remaining are protein collagen fiber.

Some of the main chemistry present in leather is the Tannin Agents, Fatliquors, Dyestuffs, Preservatives, Stuffing Waxes and Oils beside others.

They are there not to be disturbed or destabilized otherwise gradually the leather denature and deteriorate.

pH tolerance on sensitive absorbent leather manifest as water spots even with clean water neutral pH 7.

High-end world famous leather furnishing manufacturers that produce “contemporary classics” fit for museum collection will cautions the use of water on their sensitive leathers.

A weak alkaline cleaner pH value of 8 to 10 will cause ring marks when dry.

A moderate alkaline pH value 11 to 12 will result in stickiness, sliminess or gumminess.

A strong alkaline pH value 13 to 14 will gelatinize and dissolve the leather.

Chrome tanning is process at pH value between 2 and 4.

Vegetable tanning is process at pH value between 3 and 5.

Fatliquoring is process at pH value between 4 and 6.

Dyeing with acid dyestuff is process at pH value between 3 and 4.

Most “Plastic” coating including heavy pigmented leather pH value reading at the surface seldom exceeds a pH value of 6.

The pH value reading of such leather surface by means of a “pH Glass Electrodes – HI 1414” is as follows:

Pigmented Kela pH 4.4
Pigmented Metallic pH 5.0
Pigmented High Gloss pH 5.9
Pigmented Fully Corrected pH 5.7
Pigmented Wiped Effect pH 5.8
Bicast pH 4.8

All these pH value from the intimate leather internal fibrilliary structure to the thick modern urethane coating that includes the leather simulated vinyl door panels of Mazda3 are all below a pH value of 6.

Alkalinity will cause streaks, which is why cleaning by foam is “sold” as the “in thing” which may not be “safe”.

The prime safety factor when comes to leather cleaning is using a “leather pH balanced product” and not just the “foam method” as some proponent has sold to unwary user.

The cleaning effectiveness should be a secondary consideration and it depends on cleaners’ type of surfactants concentration, the ability to penetrate, lubricate and suspense soil or having superior polarity to match severity of soiling.

The advantages of using “foam” when doing a vertical cleaning is that the foams stay longer therefore steaks may be eliminated when done fast.

Question is how you control the foam from breaking up for proper “dwell time”.

Dwell time is one big consideration for the chemical to work for us when using the “CHAT” principle of leather cleaning.

Solvency will affect the top coating, drawing out both the plasticizers from the flexible coating and the fatliquor from the leather structure.

Products with “Perchlorethylene” from petroleum distillate are a health issue too!

All this brings back to quote “I've seen far too many "Leather" products that should never be used on Leather”.

Tony may have seen more damages to leather using leather non-pH balanced solvency or alkalinity ingredients products than we may have been talking so far.

Roger Koh
IICRC#942 LCT MTC MSR
Leather Doctor® System
info@leatherdoctor.org

[lands]

Hey Roger

Thats great stuff. Stay on, you clearly have much to contribute to this forum. I know that many here will appreciate your indepth and concise evalauation.

I take it you are in the U.S.

Cheers
Pete

[carpetguy]

I think Roger is Canadian................I got an impressive download some months ago, I think, from Roger.

[Roger Koh]

Re: Leather Protection

Greetings to you people from this side of the pond!

“God Save the Queen”!

Another headache to think about is selling the “Mandatory Leather Protection”.

To “protect” leather that has already a “permanent topcoat protection” that protects the color-coat that protects the leather structure has no ends!

Are we merely succumb ourselves to the “Emperor New Clothes Syndrome Mentality”?

When we wake up, we will realize what a fool we have been.

That was the awakening call when my customer told me that many, many moons ago.

I will only suggest “protection” against non-alcoholic liquid spills when the leather is absorbent.

Moreover, I will tell them that even with the “best” protection available after twenty rubs with our heavy jeans the effect is gone.

As for absorbent aniline oil or wax pull-ups leathers, these I would not even recommend as “protection” will loose its original feel.

These are oil or wax infused into the structure of the leather.

These are wax or oil waterproof leathers – “these leather will block the migration of water or moisture into and through the interior part of leather even though the surface can be wet at that time”.

It is an acceptable tannery definition for waterproofing leathers.

Is our after market leather “protection technology” more superior than what the chemist in the tannery has already created?

These leathers should be periodically be infused as of “conditioning it” with appropriate matching products like oilEffect63™, waxEffect95™, Oleosa, Waxon or other equivalent available to maintain its leather integrity characteristics.

How do we want our customers to perceive us as?

That is more important than small gains!

Do we want to provide leather services that fit the Queen?

Roger Koh
IICRC#942 LCT MTC MSR
Leather Doctor® System
info@leatherdoctor.org

[LTT Leathercare]

This is a cut and pasted reply to Rogers reply on ph values that we answered recently on another forum.  It was very carefully researched and is as follows:


This is a response to several articles on leather cleaning recently posted on various forums. It has taken some time to compile as we wanted to check all our facts and needed to discuss various points with a tannery, leather technologists and our product research specialists. The views expressed below have been formed over 20 years of leather cleaning and restoration experience and with constant reference to the sources mentioned above.

There has been reference to the IICRC S300 Leather Cleaning Method as a safe and effective guide line. This is an extremely limited over view on cleaning leather and makes no reference to problems that can be created by incorrect assessment of leather condition prior to beginning the cleaning process. There is some good advice there, but too many gaps for it to be a safe guide line with the range of finishes currently on the market. E.g. The S300 mentions the possible use of dry solvents to remove certain soils and stains. I would strongly advise against this unless you are experienced in restoration. Dry solvents (acetones etc.) will almost certainly damage finishes applied to leather surfaces which will then need repairing. To suggest that ‘application of leather conditioners to replenish natural oils’ when you are faced with a dissolved coating is very poor advice and very misleading and dangerous for inexperienced cleaners of leather.

On some forums recently there has been much reference to the pH levels. I find this very confusing and unnecessary. In 20 years of successful cleaning and restoring leather I have never once referred to or been influenced by pH values. My advice would be to use specific leather products that have been tried and tested by your supplier who should also be willing to support you through any problems. The constant reference to pH may lead some cleaning operatives to think that pH is more important than product formulation and can therefore use any cleaner of the correct pH. Leather is NOT a fabric and cleans in a different way for which specific products have been formulated. These would have the correct pH values for the job they are designed for, you and I do not need to worry about them even if we do know them. Strong acids and strong alkalines and dry solvents all have the potential to damage leather finishes, don’t use them for cleaning, your cleaners if correctly supplied will not be of that nature.


Spotting and problem solving in the cleaning process should be done using the same specified cleaning products but with reference to CHAT (TACT) Chemical, Heat, Agitation, Time (see separate article – to follow).

As a general rule and particularly with pigment coated leathers you will only be cleaning the surface or finish so your cleaning process will never come into contact with the actual leather (think wiping down a painted wooden surface) so why is the pH of the leather so important. Things that cannot be resolved in this way are more likely not cleaning problems. Ink, colour loss, fading, finish cracking, permanent staining, surface abrasion, most paints, nail varnish, dye transfer, excessive soil due to body oils, inappropriate use of products etc. are damage not dirt and excessive cleaning without fully understanding the problems, the causes and the solutions is more likely to cause further damage.

Learn what is cleaning and what is restoration and do not let the first develop into the second unless you are prepared to deal with it. It can be expensive if you can’t.

Then we return to the ‘feeding’ ‘conditioning’, ‘nourishing’ topic.
It is incredibly difficult to remove the ‘natural’ oils from leather especially using detergent cleaners so replacing them is totally unnecessary and possibly detrimental on both finished and unfinished leathers. Modern C/T (Chrome Tanned) upholstery leather is a very sophisticated product and has been for decades. The notion that it is something straight from nature that has to be fed and nourished is totally incorrect (unless you are dealing with conservation and restoration in the museum and antique sense). The oils and fats in C/T leather are introduced after the C/T processes have reduced the skin to pure collagen fibre (there maybe a tiny amount of fat left but it is of no significance). The fat liquoring process carefully introduces fats/oils of a specific type back into the leather to coat the fibres, These are balanced to produce the desired end product and are very stable and very difficult to remove. Trying to add more fat/oil etc is totally unnecessary and is of no benefit. On an absorbent leather products used for ‘conditioning’ and ‘feeding’ will soak into the leather upsetting the balance and over time change it to the detriment of the leather. If the leather is non absorbent then these products have no where to go so will sit on the surface, getting slightly sticky and attracting more dirt. If they do manage to ‘get in through the cracks’ the results will be the same as absorbent leathers with the added problem of adversely affecting the bond between surface coatings and the leather. I thought the object was to clean it!!!!!
©LTTLtd 2007
__________________

[LTT Leathercare]

Mike

The top coating on old style antique chesterfields is a fairly standard colour.  No need to send me the cushion just give me a ring on Monday and I will talk you through the process.  Hope you are getting on Ok after the floods.

Regards
Judy

[Mike Halliday]

OK Judy I'll ring on Monday, before then Ill email you a photo so you can get an 'idea' of the actual colour, it problebly is a standard colour.

I can spray it myself just not mix the colour.

Mike

[LTT Leathercare]

Thanks Mike.

Photos are always really useful in these cases.

Regards
Judy

[Roger Koh]

Dear Pete,

Do you know the pH value of the leather product you are using?

Does it have a solvent-based ingredient?

Besides this particular product, what do you have for cleaning leathers?

Roger.