Clean It Up

UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ned Kelly on February 09, 2019, 09:17:58 pm

Title: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Ned Kelly on February 09, 2019, 09:17:58 pm
Ever since I got my Airflex vac booster for my Airflex pro I've been using 50 feet of 2" hose for most jobs between 25- 100 feet . Yesterday I cleaned  wool mix carpets with the 2"  50 footer vac hose and today on a different job I decided to just use the 1.5"  50 footer on another 80/20 mix and for some reason the carpets today seemed drier. My question for you tec guys is: does the 1.5" hose perform better with distances under 50 foot? The wand when using the 2" hose  is always whistling way stronger than the 1.5" but does this reflect on the performance?
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 09, 2019, 11:07:04 pm
what is the spec of your airflex pro ... is it two in series or two in parallel  , i know u have the booster also .

nobody has done the definitive test that answers your question ... mainly because of all the variables that can effect the results .
In general two inch seems to preserve airflow on longer runs . 
At 50 foot it may not have made such a difference on that day with that carpet , other factors maay have helped drying also , like wand contact on that particular carpet ... ambient temperature etc
I try and use two inch as much as possible , but if its easier to use 1.5 in a particular job , il use that ... or combine both .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Ned Kelly on February 10, 2019, 01:27:21 pm
Thank's for the reply John. The spec of my pro is HDVS 1 X 1400 watt 3 stage,1 x 1200 watt 3-stage Lamb Ametek in parallel  with the booster pod which is a 6.6 vac motor which brings it up to the same kind of vac performance as the Storm. It's a 400 psi pump. Couldn't believe the extra power the pod gives me the first time I used it and wouldn't be without it now on every job. Another wee question,does the 6.6 booster pod have more power than the two vac motors in the machine and also would adding a short length of 1.5" whip hose on the end of the 2" for convenience of use have much of a detrimental effect on vac performance ? I know this has probably been covered a thousand times here but any advice would be appreciated.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 10, 2019, 02:02:13 pm
Im sure it works well ,  boosters are under used in the UK really .
No matter how you add it up you should about 20% more performance than a 6.6 storm or  twin 8.4

The two vacs compared to the booster ?   single 6.6 in the booster would have about 650 airwatts whereas your twin 5.7s would be about 800 .   The single 6.6 would draw about 7amps ... the twin 5.7 about 12 amps  ( the more amps the more power )
The single 6.6 would peform at about 140cfm and 10HG .... the twin 5.7 would perform at about 190cfm and 9.5HG

Overall id say you have about 10HG and 330cfm  .....   where as a storm should be about 10Hg and 290cfm

Hose wise ,  i have two inch wand and sometimes run 100+foot of two inch to it  ....  but really i cant stand that in a cramped smaller house , fine if you have a place with big rooms to do .   Use whatever makes life easier for you , you have enough performance so as a whip hose wont make a huge difference .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Ned Kelly on February 10, 2019, 05:34:32 pm
Thank's for taking the time to put all that together for me John...much appreciated. I was thinking of upgrading to the Storm with the auto feed and the auto empty  in the Autumn but if I can get more cfm with the pro and the booster pod( its so easy to use it just hooks on the back of the machine) than a Storm or any other machine I will just ask the guys at Cleansmart to fit the auto feed and auto empty on to my pro. The vac booster can also act as a back up if one of the vac motors on the machine goes which I don't think you can do on the Storm.The benefits for the pro and the booster over the Storm seem to be a no brainer.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: MarkSutcliffe on February 10, 2019, 10:28:39 pm
I have the same set up as you... exactly the same..

I've ran 175 ft (that's all i have pipes wise), and worked great!

love my machine!

And i use a 10 ft whip with no issues..
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Ned Kelly on February 11, 2019, 08:33:31 am
Mark, do your run it primarily from the van or take it into the house? I was thinking of going down the route of van mounted most of the time with water tank,waste tank and generator ( I know I'd need a big one lol). Seems we're not that far away from entry level truckmount performance.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 11, 2019, 09:08:18 pm
Ha , is this some of you guys  , its loud  , great to have an empty house to dry cushions in the kitchen  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq7db-OhMBA
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Ned Kelly on February 11, 2019, 09:58:54 pm
  ;D Using the old wet side dry side trick John
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Nick Day on February 14, 2019, 08:06:10 pm
This question has intrigued me for many years. I have an inches of water lift meter and built an air speed meter. I have tested many different vacs. The results were always the same,there was no difference in the readings between 1.5 or 2 inch diameter hose.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 14, 2019, 09:00:28 pm
This question has intrigued me for many years. I have an inches of water lift meter and built an air speed meter. I have tested many different vacs. The results were always the same,there was no difference in the readings between 1.5 or 2 inch diameter hose.

what guage have you ?  total lift wont drop much unless u put on 200ft or so  ...   airflow will drop with increasing length ...   the question is how much does 1.5" drop relative to 2" over increasing lengths
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Matt @ Cleansmart on February 15, 2019, 09:30:35 am
Just to clarify;

The Airflex Pro with Booster POD would have a little more airflow than a Storm, but you would have less water lift: When you mix vac motors types in parallel you only get the lift of the weakest motor (with the least lift) . So, you'd have 145" lift on the Storm, 116.7" lift on the Pro with Booster POD.

On the carpet, the performance between the two is pretty close, with the Storm winning it due to the better lift.

If anyone's got any questions please feel free to email me at Cleansmart info@cleansmartsupplies.co.uk

Hope that helps :)

Matt
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 11:05:17 am
Hi Matt , yes I should probably have factored more a lift drop into my guesstimate.
Have you tried boosting the storm and did that work well ? 
Do you plan any future machines or innovations in the airflex range ? 
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 15, 2019, 12:53:04 pm
Just to clarify;

The Airflex Pro with Booster POD would have a little more airflow than a Storm, but you would have less water lift: When you mix vac motors types in parallel you only get the lift of the weakest motor (with the least lift) . So, you'd have 145" lift on the Storm, 116.7" lift on the Pro with Booster POD.

On the carpet, the performance between the two is pretty close, with the Storm winning it due to the better lift.

If anyone's got any questions please feel free to email me at Cleansmart info@cleansmartsupplies.co.uk

Hope that helps :)

Matt

Is the storm only fitted with the electro motor now? as the 6.6 motors have 131" of water lift.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 01:09:22 pm
That's about all I get from testing them ,well 10 HG , about 135 .it's possible there is a rise from two together in parallel which would account for Matt's figure .
Nothing like getting your own gauge though and measuring yourself
.also the lift drop issue can be fixed in the pro by replacing the 1200w with another more powerful 5.7 .but it's not something any of the UK manufacturers can endorse ...but many of us do it .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 15, 2019, 01:23:16 pm
The lift dro in the pro with the booster may be down to using a single stage 6.6 in the booster with provides 162 cfm but only 95 inches of water lift. Coupled with the other motors in the system this will produce approx 115 inches of lift eg: (148" (1600w) + 122" (1200w)) + 95" (1stage 6.6) divided by 3 = 115"
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 01:29:18 pm
You sure it's a single stage in the booster ! If so I didn't know that and that would change a lot of things .
Can't see why the 6.6 two stage wouldn't be used though .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 15, 2019, 01:33:34 pm
You sure it's a single stage in the booster ! If so I didn't know that and that would change a lot of things .
Can't see why the 6.6 two stage wouldn't be used though .

I'm not totally sure to be honest, however it used to be advertised as adding 160 cfm. and that is what a 1 stage 6.6 produces. It definitely has a 6.6 of some sort in. Maybe cleansmart will clarify?

The figures fit though.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 01:37:12 pm
Ha , no I think the 160 CFM is the two stage , it might not be accurate and it might but nick was claiming 160cfm for a 6.6 so clean smart will not sell it self short .
CFM is difficult to measure though .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Matt @ Cleansmart on February 15, 2019, 01:37:40 pm
Ametek have upped the power output on the new 6.6's. They now do 144.9 inches lift and 659 peak air watts, but still only draw just over 7 amps, so by far the most efficient motors out there.

If you replaced the 1200 watt motor in a Pro machine with a 1400 watt (so 2 x 1400 watt motors) you would be drawing over 16amps through a 13amp power socket which is illegal, voids the machine warranty and voids you public liability insurance if the machine caused a fire, which it could well do - you can put big thick cables on the machine all you like but you never know what the wiring's like in the property you are working in. It only takes one bad connection.

Not good for the machine either, as you'll be pulling higher amps and everything will be running hot.

Definitely not something we'd recommend!

The Booster POD does use the 6.6 two stage.

Matt
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 15, 2019, 01:42:11 pm
Ametek have upped the power output on the new 6.6's. They now do 144.9 inches lift and 659 peak air watts, but still only draw just over 7 amps, so by far the most efficient motors out there.

If you replaced the 1200 watt motor in a Pro machine with a 1400 watt (so 2 x 1400 watt motors) you would be drawing over 16amps through a 13amp power socket which is illegal, voids the machine warranty and voids you public liability insurance if the machine caused a fire, which it could well do - you can put big thick cables on the machine all you like but you never know what the wiring's like in the property you are working in. It only takes one bad connection.

Not good for the machine either, as you'll be pulling higher amps and everything will be running hot.

Definitely not something we'd recommend!

The Booster POD does use the 6.6 two stage.

Matt

That's definitely interesting!

Perhaps you could pop a link to Ameteks new product bulletin about that motor for us.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Matt @ Cleansmart on February 15, 2019, 01:44:22 pm
Will do
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 15, 2019, 02:08:10 pm
Will do

Excellent, thanks.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 02:11:51 pm
True and the correct answer for anyone unsure .
In practice though it's not 16amp continuous . With the pump turned down and hoses wand connected it drops about 1 . Then when wand is on carpet it drops to about 10 and fluctuates continuous in use .so any heating is unlikely if your carefully , the house wiring  system is really 16amp plus rated in reality protection by RCD etc .
Look out for any resistance heating in the plug occasionally and change according ever couple of months to be sure .
I run four 6.6 series /parallel daily . It's transforms my results and as long as I manage risks it's worth it for me .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 06:55:04 pm
Will do

Excellent, thanks.
looks like Matt is telling the truth Robin  ...  i found 120v version showing those specs , i cant find the 230v , i wonder does it still go by the same product number .
download pdf here ..
https://www.centralvacuummotor.com/Product%20Bulletin/12248300.pdf



Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 15, 2019, 09:36:28 pm
Great, its always good to be able to pack more power in. It will be interesting to see how much, if any more power the 230v one has than the 120v.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 10:02:50 pm
id say there is little if anything between the two 120/230v  ...  current draw being the only real difference , i was comparing the old and new 120v data sheets , it seems to draw the exact same current as the old one , so to create more efficiency with no downside is an achievement  , at the same time its only half a HG more ... but usefull none the less
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 15, 2019, 10:16:06 pm
cleansmart Matt  ,    it could be good option for those selecting an airflex mini to have one single 6.6 inside ... and an exhaust port to connect the booster 6.6 to   ....   making the most powerfull airflex mini option

also  ...     if someone selected an airflex pro again with a single 6.6  ...  and an exhaust port  , with the booster they could then swap between plugging into the parallel machine port ( storm performance ) or choosing 6.6 series performance by attaching to the exhaust .

base machine would be a  bit lighter also .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Matt @ Cleansmart on February 16, 2019, 12:47:22 pm
Cheers John,

Don't think the Mini waste tank would be up to that (with a built-in 6.6 plus 6.6 Booster POD), but could have a look at the Pro with single 6.6 option. When working without the Booster POD, a single 6.6 would work ok, but with a bit less airflow than we'd normally recommend - we'd normally recommend 2 x 3-stage as a minimum which gives you about 30% more airflow than a single 6.6 (although in terms of total air watts the single 6.6 isn't far behind). We haven't production tested the Storm with in-series vac set-up (as we found it works better in parallel), so we'd have to run on test which would take about 6 months (assuming there weren't any problems).

We've tested lots of different combos of pump and vacs, and with the vacs currently available to us we've found 2 x 3-stage vacs to be the best use of a single power cord, and 2 x 6.6 vacs the best option with two power cords, although we're always happy to look at any suggestions or different user preferences.

Matt
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 16, 2019, 04:08:32 pm
Might be worth a test boosting the mini , I think the tank would be ok ... although u have be more sure than me .
I got the alltec version , went with that simply because I was used to dealing with Willie over here .
So hd electro and sd electro with 2 " barb was the spec .about 17 HG ....I shelved the sd electro and fitted another hd ...( I know shouldn't ) so about 18hg ...tank was ok ...
As the second electro I fitted was a bit older ...when that went I shoehorned a 6.6 in as the lower hanging motor. The bit more airflow is nice .
What isn't ok is the stock ball and cage from Sandia I suppose .  It will set off when the airflow is increases , ball too light , cage too small or whatever .
I just took the ball out , that would have to sorted of course if someone was selling them though .
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 18, 2019, 03:00:03 pm
Will do

Is there any news on the Ametek product bulletin for the new 230v  6.6 motors  Matt? It would be interesting to see how much extra performance they have managed to draw out of them and how much more power it take to do that.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 21, 2019, 05:38:05 pm
I am beginning to wonder if these claims about the new uprated 6.6 motor are actually real! Surly backing the claims up with some evidence is a major selling point for cleansmart.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Matt @ Cleansmart on February 27, 2019, 01:54:32 pm
Sorry, we are very busy at the moment:

I now have the UK updated datasheet for the latest UK 6.6 motor version. The figures are actually slightly different: Airflow is higher 143.9 CFM (compared to 135.8 CFM on the US motor). Water lift is slightly lower 141.7 (compared to 144.9 on the US motor). So overall, that makes the UK motors about 6% more powerful per motor than the US equivalent motors (700 peak air watts on the UK motors, 659 peak air watts on the US motors).

For the record, we don't normally quote these sorts of figures in our advertising (for the reasons John stated earlier in this thread) and rarely get asked about this sort of stuff!

I have attached some bedtime reading for you Robin   :)

Matt

Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 27, 2019, 10:04:09 pm
Those are nice specs , here the old one just to compare .   To me it looks like they strenghthened the electric motor a tad , like upped the wattage by 100w or so which would increase the lift . So no a new model number ... just after a certaain date ... they upped the power a bit .
Might be a little more current draw but that dont matter on a two cord machine .
certainly would be no reason to choose an 8.4 now ... even the old 6.6 was measuring the same as it on my own little hg/cfm test

old one ...
http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/Product%20Bulletin/122236-18.pdf

Matt ... incase your not aware ( but probably u  are )  mytee are switching all there machines to a hybrid ( they call it ) single stage 6.6 at 710 airwatts each ....  but they have to run in series  , but by all user accounts they are performing really well 
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on February 27, 2019, 10:36:06 pm
Thank you for posting that. That is quite a rise in power, by the looks of it pretty much exactly the same power as an 8.4 but with a tad bit mor amp draw. Looks like the 6.6 is king of the hill yet again.

Apologies i doubted you.
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Matt @ Cleansmart on February 28, 2019, 09:26:48 am
Thanks guys,

The 8.4's are good motors but 2 x 8.4 motors weigh 3kg more than 2 x 6.6 motors, so quite a lot of extra weight on the machine. We couldn't tell any difference performance-wise at the wand between the 6.6's and the 8.4 motors. The 8.4's are a lot more expensive to replace also. This is why we prefer the 6.6 motors.

The single stage 6.6's we stock only do 588 air watts, would you have the datasheet for the 710 air watt ones - might be interesting.

Thanks
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: john martin on February 28, 2019, 09:30:49 pm
Thanks guys,

The 8.4's are good motors but 2 x 8.4 motors weigh 3kg more than 2 x 6.6 motors, so quite a lot of extra weight on the machine. We couldn't tell any difference performance-wise at the wand between the 6.6's and the 8.4 motors. The 8.4's are a lot more expensive to replace also. This is why we prefer the 6.6 motors.

The single stage 6.6's we stock only do 588 air watts, would you have the datasheet for the 710 air watt ones - might be interesting.

Thanks

Hi , i  cant see a data sheet  , mainly because Mytee are claiming their version is proprietary , that may be sales talk too though .
I can see a single stage where similar airwatts aare mentioned , so it  could be related to this vac  ...  (120v version )
https://catalog.ametekdfs.com/ecatalog/lamb-brushed-blower-motors/en/122628-00     

I would say its a full amp version of the single stage u mentioned , but where as that one is about 6amps ?  the newer one probably has the same 7.5amp motor as the two stage .

There is scraps of info here also on larry cobbs site  ..
https://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86&products_id=5569

i think they end up about 220cfm and 200" in series  , mytee claim 20%-30% more efficiency when testing is done with wand on carpet ... over a twin 6.6 or 8.4 parallel setup

they have even converted their quad 5.7 escape to two motor lx and people are still impressed with the performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoXqW26kcGQ


Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Matt @ Cleansmart on March 01, 2019, 04:31:20 pm
There are lots of claims in carpet cleaning :) I'm not saying Larry Cobb is here, but manufacturer's can claim whatever airflow figures they like because your average carpet cleaner won't have any way to check. Be interesting to see the datasheet though, maybe Robin could ask him for it!

We just keep it simple by claiming the Storm will run 200ft of hoses direct from the van, clean quicker than a standard 2 x 3-stage motor machine and with faster drying times etc., which we feel is more useful than quoting CFM figures that a lot of carpet cleaners are dubious of anyway.

I'll ask Ametek about these motors though, as we'd written off the single stage 6.6's based on testing the ones we have here from a few years back.

Cheers John
Title: Re: 1.5" or 2" Vac Hose
Post by: Robin Ray on March 01, 2019, 05:39:38 pm
There are lots of claims in carpet cleaning :) I'm not saying Larry Cobb is here, but manufacturer's can claim whatever airflow figures they like because your average carpet cleaner won't have any way to check. Be interesting to see the datasheet though, maybe Robin could ask him for it!

We just keep it simple by claiming the Storm will run 200ft of hoses direct from the van, clean quicker than a standard 2 x 3-stage motor machine and with faster drying times etc., which we feel is more useful than quoting CFM figures that a lot of carpet cleaners are dubious of anyway.

I'll ask Ametek about these motors though, as we'd written off the single stage 6.6's based on testing the ones we have here from a few years back.

Cheers John


;D I only asked because of the reputation of many manufacturers when it comes to performance claims.

Genuine claims of performance can always be substantiated by evidence.

The Mytee machines and motors in question are actually for sale in this country by World wide cleaning support. Idid actually enquired about those motors when buying my last machine but the closest I could get was the information that is stated on the mytee website. Those motors however are not for sale to any other company except mytee, as they have been developed for mytee.  Fitting two motors to the escape at least solves the problem of world wide cleaning support fitting a 13 amp plug on a cord that draws 20 amps, which was the case with the four motor escape.