Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: stracey on April 04, 2010, 10:46:15 am

Title: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: stracey on April 04, 2010, 10:46:15 am
Got a nice round of three storey houses on a newish estate and still building.
£10 per house, thought a little under-priced but very compact and pickup a new clean
every visit :)
Collecting yesterday and cust gone with a new quote of £6, they claim to do the majority
on the estate. >:(
Hope they just disappear like the other under-cut nuisance we come across from time to time.

Will take the cust back on the new price of £12 this year me thinks ;D
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: dazmond on April 04, 2010, 01:43:30 pm
if they got some very compact flats at £6 a pop u can still make a good hourly rate.some window cleaners are just greedy.dont be surprised if you lose a load  if their £10 a pop and only take 5 mins to clean.

i know of one guys who lost  the lot(whole apartment block)for a guy who was charging less yet he was still making £35+ an hour at the lower price!

business is business

regards

dazmond
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: martinsadie on April 04, 2010, 01:58:33 pm
if you are only doing a job here and there and charging for traveling,you are always going to get undercut by someone with compact work doing them all ,its not really undercutting hes charging the proper price
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: formb on April 05, 2010, 09:59:11 am
Undercutting is very poor business practice.

If he has felt the need to resort to such a tactic he is probably struggling to get customers of his own.

If he uses 1 poor business practice he probably uses other too.

Every time we have been undercut in the past, the undercutter has gone sooner or later.

Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: daz1977 on April 05, 2010, 10:03:28 am
do u know weather it is a newbie or someone established, just pinching work
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: formb on April 05, 2010, 10:22:36 am
if you are only doing a job here and there and charging for traveling,you are always going to get undercut by someone with compact work doing them all ,its not really undercutting hes charging the proper price

If the customer was happy to pay £10 then he comes in and charges £6 its undercutting.

See:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/undercutting
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: stracey on April 05, 2010, 11:16:48 am
We get four done an hour the two of us, these are quite large, think £40 hour right pricing.
£24 an hour not right price, not greedy but relistic not desperate :-\
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: formb on April 05, 2010, 11:22:25 am
We get four done an hour the two of us, these are quite large, think £40 hour right pricing.
£24 an hour not right price, not greedy but relistic not desperate :-\

Sounds cheap to me mate.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: C.C.W.C on April 05, 2010, 11:32:28 am
We get four done an hour the two of us, these are quite large, think £40 hour right pricing.
£24 an hour not right price, not greedy but relistic not desperate :-\

yeah i think thats spot on pricing for 2 of you. youll get them back come winter when its too cold for them ;D
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: The Jester of Wibbly on April 05, 2010, 02:54:27 pm
name and shame the Bu**ers
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: mlscontractcleaner on April 05, 2010, 03:22:30 pm
Nobody likes being undercut but how do you know he undercut you; that may have been his price no matter how much you were charging ...... and your ex-customer went for it.

Let this be a lesson to you; you're in business and he's now got the work you used to have 'cause he offers better value for money, at least in his customer's eyes.

It's the same in any business ::)
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: martinsadie on April 05, 2010, 03:33:22 pm
Nobody likes being undercut but how do you know he undercut you; that may have been his price no matter how much you were charging ...... and your ex-customer went for it.

Let this be a lesson to you; you're in business and he's now got the work you used to have 'cause he offers better value for money, at least in his customer's eyes.

It's the same in any business ::)
spot on
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: paul rulton on April 05, 2010, 04:05:20 pm
Nobody likes being undercut but how do you know he undercut you; that may have been his price no matter how much you were charging ...... and your ex-customer went for it.

Let this be a lesson to you; you're in business and he's now got the work you used to have 'cause he offers better value for money, at least in his customer's eyes.

It's the same in any business ::)
that about wraps this thread up  ;D  well put   ;)
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Gav Camm lammy 283 on April 05, 2010, 04:55:43 pm
 ;D ;D ;D n that jus about sums it up fella jus hope
e dont get the rest ov ya custys at his price
or u cud be driving his van lol doing all yr old work lol ;D ;D
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 05:37:26 pm
Id be more worried that your losing customers rather than concentrating on the hourly rate.

Find ways of winning them back like offering more services or just simply being more competively priced. Dont forget we are in a recession and loads of window cleaners are around because there isnt any jobs about so you will get cheaper prices popping around.

Id just canvass your rounds again but at a better price and hold on to your work. When your profit margins are 80% plus there is always room to be flexable as long as you make a profit
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 05:55:06 pm
Think of it this way if i was trad and a guy on an estate charged £5 a house and i charged £5 we are offering the same service for the same price in the customers eyes. The only thing seperating our businesses is reliability, frequence of cleans, quality of work and whether or not we clean frames.

With WFP every system does the same things. You wash the windows and frames and thats the service. Depending on your frequency you dont have a unique selling point other than price if you are in competition with another window cleaner using a wfp system. This is when price wars will seperate you from competition.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: The Jester of Wibbly on April 05, 2010, 05:57:35 pm
you always get what u pay for.

Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: formb on April 05, 2010, 05:58:58 pm
Think of it this way if i was trad and a guy on an estate charged £5 a house and i charged £5 we are offering the same service for the same price in the customers eyes. The only thing seperating our businesses is reliability, frequence of cleans, quality of work and whether or not we clean frames.

With WFP every system does the same things. You wash the windows and frames and thats the service. Depending on your frequency you dont have a unique selling point other than price if you are in competition with another window cleaner using a wfp system. This is when price wars will seperate you from competition.

Price wars will only ever benefit the customer.

People who undercut are silly billys
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: stracey on April 05, 2010, 07:09:15 pm
We clean all the frames WFP, of course, + doors for this price.
I will up-date you on how this develops, from experience cust comes back when
the low priced only clean one or two on the estate disappears.

A few Custs have informed me they were approuched and gave me his flyer.
One cust said he was very insistant on the door the man saying very happy
with the service and said looking at him didnt have confidance that they could
deliver better.

I will let you all know good or bad
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: stfc on April 05, 2010, 07:17:59 pm
thing is though,if you come up against a big business who has blokes working for him,and he charged £6 a time and they did 3 an hour and gave his employee £7-8 an hour hes still making profit,so they might not go away as quickly thought,as some 1 says,business is business,look after number one
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: lee09 on April 05, 2010, 07:26:21 pm
Think of it this way if i was trad and a guy on an estate charged £5 a house and i charged £5 we are offering the same service for the same price in the customers eyes. The only thing seperating our businesses is reliability, frequence of cleans, quality of work and whether or not we clean frames.

With WFP every system does the same things. You wash the windows and frames and thats the service. Depending on your frequency you dont have a unique selling point other than price if you are in competition with another window cleaner using a wfp system. This is when price wars will seperate you from competition.

That is true to a point, but people buy people.
If you are the same in every respect of work but you ask how they are or how their family is, the business is yours to keep.
Quality is not just in our work it is also how we deal with people and people will pay a little more if they feel that they are treated well.
I do not think everyone wants to save a pound or two.
Lee
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 08:06:16 pm
Think of it this way if i was trad and a guy on an estate charged £5 a house and i charged £5 we are offering the same service for the same price in the customers eyes. The only thing seperating our businesses is reliability, frequence of cleans, quality of work and whether or not we clean frames.

With WFP every system does the same things. You wash the windows and frames and thats the service. Depending on your frequency you dont have a unique selling point other than price if you are in competition with another window cleaner using a wfp system. This is when price wars will seperate you from competition.

so platinum how would you get more work then? you would drop your prices wouldnt you!!!! btw do you have a van with platinum cleaning on the side?
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: formb on April 05, 2010, 08:17:26 pm
thing is though,if you come up against a big business who has blokes working for him,and he charged £6 a time and they did 3 an hour and gave his employee £7-8 an hour hes still making profit,so they might not go away as quickly thought,as some 1 says,business is business,look after number one

I have to disagree on this point. I employ people but I find (especially more recently) that employing people actually puts running costs up.

Not many solo window cleaners charge VAT for instance thats 17.5% up the swannie before you've even looked at fleet insurance (£6750). Then you have employers NI to consider.

Don't assume because someone employs others his profit margins are somehow wider than yours.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: forest on April 05, 2010, 08:22:05 pm
Have to say that i am a commerial window cleaner and pricing is key. You aim to win business off others...However i have always had a problem with undercutting on domestic work. Seems more personal to me. I know many will say 'business is business' but my moral code would not allow me to undercut another and yet for commercial work nothing feels better than to win work in the same way.

~Ive just bought into a domestic round and we have already made a clear management decision that we are going to expand the round but if we call on a home where they have a window cleaner then we will walk away!

Just not that desperate for work!

Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: formb on April 05, 2010, 08:23:18 pm
Have to say that i am a commerial window cleaner and pricing is key. You aim to win business off others...However i have always had a problem with undercutting on domestic work. Seems more personal to me. I know many will say 'business is business' but my moral code would not allow me to undercut another and yet for commercial work nothing feels better than to win work in the same way.

~Ive just bought into a domestic round and we have already made a clear management decision that we are going to expand the round but if we call on a home where they have a window cleaner then we will walk away!

Just not that desperate for work!



Good man

 ;D
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: dazmond on April 05, 2010, 08:33:22 pm
i have big chunks of very compact domestic work that is priced cheaper than if i was going to just clean one house on a street i didnt otherwise clean in.it stops me from bein undercut and keeps everything close so hardly any travelling! ;) ;D ;D

i do have some well priced scattered bigger accounts as well to mix my round up but i try and charge a fair price for me and the custy.

im certainly not a rip off merchant like some on here!! ;) ;D ;D

£10 a house is too much to ask for a small 3 bed semi where i work!£6 or £7 tops.they just wont pay anymore as there are guys still cleaning for £4 with 3 lads with them so they still make it pay! ::) ::)
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: dai on April 05, 2010, 08:43:23 pm
I have suffered under cutters over the years, the cycle is nearly always the same.
1]Inexperienced newbie desperate for work compares his hourly earnings in his last job with what he can make window cleaning, he charges £7 for a £10 job, thinks at £14 an hour he's minted, and gets some work.

2] He begins to understand that other window cleaners are earning double his earnings, and it starts to bother him.

3] He feels that his customers are exploiting him and starts increasing his prices

4] just as he gets his prices up to the level he thinks they should be, some evil little newbie goes round undercutting his prices.
What goes round comes round, nothing changes.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: martinsadie on April 05, 2010, 08:45:07 pm
I have suffered under cutters over the years, the cycle is nearly always the same.
1]Inexperienced newbie desperate for work compares his hourly earnings in his last job with what he can make window cleaning, he charges £7 for a £10 job, thinks at £14 an hour he's minted, and gets some work.

2] He begins to understand that other window cleaners are earning double his earnings, and it starts to bother him.

3] He feels that his customers are exploiting him and starts increasing his prices

4] just as he gets his prices up to the level he thinks they should be, some evil little newbie goes round undercutting his prices.
What goes round comes round, nothing changes.
;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 08:48:23 pm
i went and priced up two houses yesterday, the last one i priced at £8, he said he was happy with that as he hadnt had them cleaned for ages as he never liked the last cleaner, i asked how much he used to pay and he said £6 and the fella were trad, i couldnt believe this as if i was cleaning it trad it would take at least 30 - 40 mins. it will take me max 15 mins. im happy an so is he, i also got his neighbour house as well
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: The Jester of Wibbly on April 05, 2010, 09:10:00 pm
just a point, and I know people may disagree, but rather than walking away from those customers, or charging even less, why not reduce the frequency of the visit.  Go every 8 weeks, so if you are charging 10squid, it worth 5 squid a month to the customer.  And you win as you keep the customer, and you dont have to work your nuts ofd for silly money.

I think if you do a good job WFP, the windows will stay clean anyway.

Sorry if anyone does not agree
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 09:27:53 pm
so platinum how would you get more work then? you would drop your prices wouldnt you!!!! btw do you have a van with platinum cleaning on the side?
Quote

I would look at cleaning more on the house like the garage doors or maybe facias ( I was asked twice when i had a wfp).
Last resort is to lower the price but ive found that the lower my price the more work i pick up thats compact. When i price high i am vulnrable to being undercut and at more risk of losing more money.

If i lost 2 customers @ £6 ive lost £12 worth of work.
If i lose 2 customers @ £10 thats £20 worth of work.
It will take far longer to build a larger round off high priced work. I prefere moderately priced and competitive

I clean houses for £5-6 a month on a council estate and it has grown rapidly as the other wc does these fortnightly for around £4-5. .I have picked up loads where they have seen they can save money with me. We get on great but customers always look for value for money and like now when there is alot of wcs out there prices get squeezed.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 09:31:03 pm

so platinum how would you get more work then? you would drop your prices wouldnt you!!!! btw do you have a van with platinum cleaning on the side?
Quote

No ste that isnt me. Not sign written yet
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Dave Willis on April 05, 2010, 09:37:18 pm
Platinum, are you in the construction business, running a brickworks, selling cars or finance this week?
I can never remember.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 09:43:05 pm
so platinum how would you get more work then? you would drop your prices wouldnt you!!!! btw do you have a van with platinum cleaning on the side?
Quote

I would look at cleaning more on the house like the garage doors or maybe facias ( I was asked twice when i had a wfp).
Last resort is to lower the price but ive found that the lower my price the more work i pick up thats compact. When i price high i am vulnrable to being undercut and at more risk of losing more money.

If i lost 2 customers @ £6 ive lost £12 worth of work.
If i lose 2 customers @ £10 thats £20 worth of work.
It will take far longer to build a larger round off high priced work. I prefere moderately priced and competitive

I clean houses for £5-6 a month on a council estate and it has grown rapidly as the other wc does these fortnightly for around £4-5. .I have picked up loads where they have seen they can save money with me. We get on great but customers always look for value for money and like now when there is alot of wcs out there prices get squeezed.

do you only clean st helens then? massive council estates everywhere there. compact work is great for me, i will clean 23 houses tomorrow and only move my van twice, it makes you so quick its unbelievable
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 09:45:42 pm

so platinum how would you get more work then? you would drop your prices wouldnt you!!!! btw do you have a van with platinum cleaning on the side?
Quote

No ste that isnt me. Not sign written yet

spotted a transit van in st helens with platinum cleaning on it and it was window cleaning
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: richard jagger on April 05, 2010, 09:56:58 pm
There is a sad mistake in all price cutting that seems to go amiss to all.
The formula for all business is.
Price = value
We all know what a pound  is( price) and so on. The problem arises from the latter as value means different thing to different people. If we new what our clients wanted as service we could master value. This takes much skill and getting to know your client’s wants and needs.
If we made a list of needs for our customers we would find most have the same basic need and wants to compile there value list.
The think we can have a dramatic effect on the value telling them what value you as a company or window cleaner provide. We can be a little slack to blowing our trumpet, but if they do not see what you do extra it will have no effect on the value they receive and we need to reaffirm this all the time or from time to time. I had a business and chap worked for me that just seamed to coin all the business. One day I asked a customer what he had down that was so fantastic.  She replied about something that most trained workman would see as no benefit at all. The problem was she did not know that it had no advantage to her. He just said so. So educating what value is, and what benefit it would have to her, is very important.
How do you achieve this By telling them ( not selling to them) do it casualy and be relaxed.
Write it in all your adverts.
Draw there attention to what you do better and more.
Show them what you do more.
If you were mad and cleaned all her gutters free would this have added value.
 A  resounding.     NO!!!!!!       Until you drew attention to it then the value would increase dramatically. So don’t forget to get to know your subject we are not in the WINDOW CLEANING business we in the people business.
The moral of the story is inform them what you  GREAT at.


The Wizard Strikes again with a lesson in Business wizzzzzdom I am such a ass at times.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 10:21:19 pm
so platinum how would you get more work then? you would drop your prices wouldnt you!!!! btw do you have a van with platinum cleaning on the side?
Quote

I would look at cleaning more on the house like the garage doors or maybe facias ( I was asked twice when i had a wfp).
Last resort is to lower the price but ive found that the lower my price the more work i pick up thats compact. When i price high i am vulnrable to being undercut and at more risk of losing more money.

If i lost 2 customers @ £6 ive lost £12 worth of work.
If i lose 2 customers @ £10 thats £20 worth of work.
It will take far longer to build a larger round off high priced work. I prefere moderately priced and competitive

I clean houses for £5-6 a month on a council estate and it has grown rapidly as the other wc does these fortnightly for around £4-5. .I have picked up loads where they have seen they can save money with me. We get on great but customers always look for value for money and like now when there is alot of wcs out there prices get squeezed.

do you only clean st helens then? massive council estates everywhere there. compact work is great for me, i will clean 23 houses tomorrow and only move my van twice, it makes you so quick its unbelievable

Yes ste its covered in them. I cleaned around 25 houses today but my most profitable estate is covered in terraced houses @ £2-£2.50 a front. Do you clean anywhere in st helens?

I do mostly st helens and some in widnes, warrington and maybe some up manchester in the next month or so maybe buying a small round off a mate in whiston. Ill go anywhere really
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 10:21:59 pm
Platinum, are you in the construction business, running a brickworks, selling cars or finance this week?
I can never remember.

finance ?
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 10:26:04 pm
so platinum how would you get more work then? you would drop your prices wouldnt you!!!! btw do you have a van with platinum cleaning on the side?
Quote

I would look at cleaning more on the house like the garage doors or maybe facias ( I was asked twice when i had a wfp).
Last resort is to lower the price but ive found that the lower my price the more work i pick up thats compact. When i price high i am vulnrable to being undercut and at more risk of losing more money.

If i lost 2 customers @ £6 ive lost £12 worth of work.
If i lose 2 customers @ £10 thats £20 worth of work.
It will take far longer to build a larger round off high priced work. I prefere moderately priced and competitive

I clean houses for £5-6 a month on a council estate and it has grown rapidly as the other wc does these fortnightly for around £4-5. .I have picked up loads where they have seen they can save money with me. We get on great but customers always look for value for money and like now when there is alot of wcs out there prices get squeezed.

do you only clean st helens then? massive council estates everywhere there. compact work is great for me, i will clean 23 houses tomorrow and only move my van twice, it makes you so quick its unbelievable

Yes ste its covered in them. I cleaned around 25 houses today but my most profitable estate is covered in terraced houses @ £2-£2.50 a front. Do you clean anywhere in st helens?

no mate, i tend to stay away from there, its just that little bit to far, i was thinking of going onto the new morris estate off the linkway as the people we bought our house off moved there and wanted a cleaner but im busy enough were i am to be honest so no point in upsetting or taking work from a local lad round there
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: richard jagger on April 05, 2010, 10:27:26 pm
What do you finance platts.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 10:31:11 pm
I know where you mean. Them lads are from leigh i think. I have tried on there and to be honest the other guys seem to have it wrapped up.

I have a few in clinkham wood, billinge and up holland if you clean anywhere near them
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 10:34:45 pm
I know where you mean. Them lads are from leigh i think. I have tried on there and to be honest the other guys seem to have it wrapped up.

I have a few in clinkham wood, billinge and up holland if you clean anywhere near them


no i stay away from there, stick to knowsley and very near surrounding areas upon request really
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 10:36:03 pm
What do you finance platts.

I dont know
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 10:39:18 pm
I know where you mean. Them lads are from leigh i think. I have tried on there and to be honest the other guys seem to have it wrapped up.

I have a few in clinkham wood, billinge and up holland if you clean anywhere near them


no i stay away from there, stick to knowsley and very near surrounding areas upon request really

Im canvassing in whiston and rainhill in the near future. The area is nice and rough just how i like it  ;D
Not much competition there but i know a few of the locals so i have one or two customers already on the books

Whats knowsley like ? Ive heard its a nice area but never been
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 10:41:41 pm
My mates selling work in stockport if you travel that far
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 10:47:02 pm
I know where you mean. Them lads are from leigh i think. I have tried on there and to be honest the other guys seem to have it wrapped up.

I have a few in clinkham wood, billinge and up holland if you clean anywhere near them


no i stay away from there, stick to knowsley and very near surrounding areas upon request really

Im canvassing in whiston and rainhill in the near future. The area is nice and rough just how i like it  ;D
Not much competition there but i know a few of the locals so i have one or two customers already on the books

Whats knowsley like ? Ive heard its a nice area but never been


you got an e-mail?

whiston is knowsley, rainhill is half knowsley an half st helens
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 10:48:20 pm
dmj.guest@hotmail.co.uk

Didnt know that ...

Are you on any of the council estates?
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 05, 2010, 10:48:55 pm
no dont do any, ill e-mail you
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: master cleaner on April 05, 2010, 10:56:41 pm
the problem with these people in the original post is they are knocking on the door and asking the people what their window cleaner is charging and then if the person tells them they are undercutting
how many of you wouldnt mind this
I know i would

and i couldnt do this to another wc
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 11:11:45 pm
the problem with these people in the original post is they are knocking on the door and asking the people what their window cleaner is charging and then if the person tells them they are undercutting
how many of you wouldnt mind this
I know i would

and i couldnt do this to another wc

Not everyone is as thoughtful as you mate.
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Dave Willis on April 05, 2010, 11:13:40 pm
What do you finance platts.

I dont know


Sorry, thought you were Craig  ::)
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Platinum on April 05, 2010, 11:15:45 pm
Thats my brother....

He sells cars and finance lol :)
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Gav Camm lammy 283 on April 05, 2010, 11:44:29 pm
no dont do any, ill e-mail you
cant believe a scouser dont do
any council estates lol ;D ;D
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 06, 2010, 12:00:31 am
some of us aim higher  ;D, plus i wouldnt want to clean your house now would i haha
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Gav Camm lammy 283 on April 06, 2010, 01:20:00 am
some of us aim higher  ;D, plus i wouldnt want to clean your house now would i haha
dont be like that ste or il c
barringtons bout anfield n taunt u to death lol ;D ;D
Title: Re: Under-cut nuisance
Post by: Ste M on April 06, 2010, 01:22:00 am
haha lammy im only teasing ya mate haha