Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: daz1977 on April 03, 2010, 09:50:17 pm
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after reports of an other wc dieing, i want to know what other wc thing about weather ladders should be banned and we all go wfp, or trad on a pole
i know ladders arnt banned at mo, just want to know waht u think
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ladders dont cause accidents users do so no
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i think ladders are very usefull and if people want to use them to clean windows,i say thats upto them.
At the end of the day we live in a very dangerous world where nasty horrible things happen,you only have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time,if we worried about every little thing we would lock ourselves in our houses!
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i voted no by the way!
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no,ladders are used in all walks of life,people die riding horses, driving cars, in cherry pickers ( I personally know of one) should they all be banned!!
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NO ;D people should b able 2 chose how they work...... not b told ;D
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in a sentence yeah
laddersshud not be banned ever
or atleast bear this in mind
complacency breeds contempt
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Anymore deaths then I think the H&S will issue licence type cards for tradesmen that use ladder on a daily basis. a bit like a forklift licence, theory and the practical test.
Matt
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yeah matt that'll get inforced not :o
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yes over a certain height say about 20ft - 25ft
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yeah matt that'll get inforced not :o
;D ;D
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I think the trouble is lack of enforcement and ladders not being secured as the law stipulates. Even after another death, that was preventable, and would not happen if they abided by the law. a local w/c near me has been told 3 times about the law & securing ladders, and hes a JW elder where we all belive life is sacred, and what did he do, yes, youve guessed it, stick yellow/black warning tape down the side of his wooden ladders
idealrob
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yes over a certain height say about 20ft - 25ft
That's what I'd say.
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ladders dont cause accidents users do so no
;) ;)
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No they should not be banned its the person using them at fault most of the time, some times accidents happen thats life, i have heard of people falling from step ladders and dying and dont forget the many people who fall down the stairs every week and die a a result will the be baned dont think so i have never came off a ladder but broke my foot when i tripped cleaning down stairs windows wfp is just as dangerous in the wrong hands, also why do we keep getting threads like this same people same views
yawn yawn yawn
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I think the current restrictions are more than enough. Simple clarification and enforcement of what we already have is what is needed.
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Ladders ARE banned
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Ladders ARE banned
No they're not, but their use is greatly restricted.
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And contrary to popular opinion, the restrictions are law, not just guidelines.
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Ladders ARE banned
only on my round ;D
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I wonder why we get this topic come up so often? If cleaners are wfp, and don't use ladders, why are they so anxious to see ladders banned? ???
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I wonder why we get this topic come up so often? If cleaners are wfp, and don't use ladders, why are they so anxious to see ladders banned? ???
dont inc me in that Ian W ;D the only reason i went wfp was 2try n keep workin :-\
with my back being stuffed i had no choice :( i love trad :) was good at it 2 :(
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If any of the WFP guys voted yes just take a moment to think if they were starting from word go without much money how would they clean windows i bet the old fashioned traditional way.If they were banned it woundn't even give a newie starting out a chance is that fair i dont think so.
Also i did a new clean the other day and the window sills were the worst i have ever seen no way would a WFP have cleaned them properly, ive nothing against WFP i would love one but there is a time ladders do have to come out if you are going to do the job properly, if i hadn't been up the ladder to clean the sill properly i doubt i would have been payed, as someone else said it's not the ladder thats at fault in an accident it's the user.
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And contrary to popular opinion, the restrictions are law, not just guidelines.
Rubbish, I've worked up ladders in front of police and H&S people and they've not said a word.
I see dozens of people up ladders every day.
Roofers, tv men, scaffolders, decorators, the list goes on...
Of course it's not illegal. Who told you that? A customer? ::)
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yes over a certain height say about 20ft - 25ft
That isn't a bad point but how would it be inforced would a man come round with his tape measure?
I personally wont go any higher than 15 to 20ft.
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Oh! Not another thread about someone being banned from the forum.
I know some of us like to mouth off sometimes, but ladders wasnt that bad was he, bad enough to be banned?
I know Ill miss him, perhaps he should come back under a pseudonym.
:D
Don't worry, he'll be back.
As "Steps" or "A-frame"... ;D
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morning all my thoughts like your are with this poor mans family horrible news.
now im talking from ignorance never used them but just wondering would a stand off and ladder spikes have made any differance, i know its impossible for anyone to answer as we dont know what happened in this one fall but im asking the question of people who use them can you improve the safety of the ladder your useing.
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ladders will never be banned as they are essential for all window cleaners from time to time.
do i climb ladders higher than first floor?never! ;) ;D ;D
ill be shortly changing over to wfp for nearly all my work.id rather keep my feet on the ground after 16 years of ladders but i will still need them for the odd access/first cleans/oxidized frames/old wooden/leaded windows etc.
why is it some wc s are having a problem with using ladders? or those that continue to use them? ::) ::)
its well known that wfp is a fantastic maintenance clean tool for the majority of regular work but is next to useless on very bad first cleans/paint/putty/silcone/grit/baked on bird dirt/bad frames etc.
sometimes getting up close to the window is the only way to do a good job of both frames and windows.
a good window cleaner should have all the tools in his locker for the job in hand.
wfp and trad. ;) ;D ;D
regards
dazmond
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I wonder why we get this topic come up so often? If cleaners are wfp, and don't use ladders, why are they so anxious to see ladders banned? ???
If ladders were banned what would it be next having to have a 2 week course to use a wfp?, it sounds like some want traditional out of the way.Id love to go wfp but atm cant afford it but when i do ill always belive theres space left for the traditional w/c, it was good enough before wfp came about and if resrictions were put on water usage they would soon be getting there ladders out again.
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its well known that wfp is a fantastic maintenance clean tool for the majority of regular work but is next to useless on very bad first cleans/paint/putty/silcone/grit/baked on bird dirt/bad frames etc.
sometimes getting up close to the window is the only way to do a good job of both frames and windows.
Totally agree.
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I wonder why we get this topic come up so often? If cleaners are wfp, and don't use ladders, why are they so anxious to see ladders banned? ???
dont inc me in that Ian W ;D the only reason i went wfp was 2try n keep workin :-\
with my back being stuffed i had no choice :( i love trad :) was good at it 2 :(
No, I don't include everyone. ;D
I just wonder why so many are anxious to see a ban? Are they concerned that wfp is not the be all and end all and getting rid of trad will help their business? Do they think this will give them a headstart on trad only cleaners? I don't think it is compassion for ladder users. :)
For the record, I use both methods.
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I have worked on many building sites over the years,from canary wharf,to Manchesters civil justice centre,and Manchesters media city,Londons white city and anywhere from Elgin in Scotland Down to Poole and probably further. Ladders are not banned, BUT their use is greatly restricted, You can use them for access only, or for short duration work. One part of our job was putting safety nets up,Using ladders for this was getting more and more difficult, Big name main contractors like Bovis or Laing 'o' Rourke etc virtually ban their use,every single possible alternative has to be used. Now as a one man band sole trader I do not think ladders could or would ever be banned (or restricted),But as an employer I think they will be,or if an accident happens you will be in serious bother. Also if your a firm that works on a commercial site (not you local butchers,bakers etc) I think because of their insurance/H&S policies I think it will become very difficult to be able to use them.As for step ladders,They are banned on building sites,I have never worked on a site in years where you can use a step ladder (except for odd poxy little firms). Other methods are not necesserily safer if the user is not, I know of numerous quite serious accidents and at least one fatality ( A sub contractor who worked with/for our firm) using cherry pickers and scissor lifts.
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How many more times do we need to bring up this old chestnut?
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can anyone tell me if a stand off makes cleaning a fist floor window safer ?
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maybe over a large height but i voted no
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what are you on about?NEVER rest the stand off on the sill!!underneath on the brickwork if your using one.
dont give out dodgy/dangerous advice!! ::)
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can anyone tell me if a stand off makes cleaning a fist floor window safer ?
no its not safer
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seems to be a problem only to wfp guys this ladder job,perhaps they wernt very good at using them,but why try and stop us using them is beyond me
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seems to be a problem only to wfp guys this ladder job,perhaps they wernt very good at using them,but why try and stop us using them is beyond me
haha think it was just me that couldnt use them ::) fell off twice ::) didnt wannatry a 3rd ;D
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hitman why did you fall off were you rushing to make more money or careless,not having a pop but thats how most accidents happen,when ive fell i know why and put it right
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may be worth while people posting who have taken a fall and listing what happened :-\
i was chatting to a windy the other week cleaning for 20 yrs no falls than sliped on green moss on small flat roof above a door 3 months in hospital bad back he admitted to wearing trainers but would safety boots have made any differance ...
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From a health and safety view then they should be banned for window cleaning above ground floor. Say 2 metres is the highest your feet should be allowed to rest. This will allow for gate hopping and high ground floor or shop windows. Also for access to a flat roof at first floor level I would say it would be an acceptable risk.
But from a selfish commercial view then don't ban them! Trad window cleaners have dwindled to an irrelevance around my way - perhaps some older semi-retired gent or a raggit and run merchant might use them; but any serious competition to my business, unlike just two or three years ago, no longer comes from trad users.
Because trad users who want a successful (as in good hourly rate) business for the long term will switch to wfp.
Around here in Bristol that has already happened and "oop North" it will happen eventually. The only traddies round here are viewed as "bathroom window and frame dodgers" and are no threat whatsoever. The number of people willing to pay a premium for trad are just a handful of luddites and not enough to build a business upon. Period.
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From a health and safety view then they should be banned for window cleaning above ground floor. Say 2 metres is the highest your feet should be allowed to rest. This will allow for gate hopping and high ground floor or shop windows. Also for access to a flat roof at first floor level I would say it would be an acceptable risk.
But from a selfish commercial view then don't ban them! Trad window cleaners have dwindled to an irrelevance around my way - perhaps some older semi-retired gent or a raggit and run merchant might use them; but any serious competition to my business, unlike just two or three years ago, no longer comes from trad users.
Because trad users who want a successful (as in good hourly rate) business for the long term will switch to wfp.
Around here in Bristol that has already happened and "oop North" it will happen eventually. The only traddies round here are viewed as "bathroom window and frame dodgers" and are no threat whatsoever. The number of people willing to pay a premium for trad are just a handful of luddites and not enough to build a business upon. Period.
self self self
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For the love of god, must we do this again ::)
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Yes we should ban them and the reason, there is an alternative that will do the job without the chance even a remote one that the cleaner will die.
In the 1800's miners used canaries to detect explosive gases, then in 1815 the miners lamps was used, since them it has been updated many times and nowdays the casaulty rate from explosions in this country and many around the world is almost nil.
In ww1 and ww11 mine detecting use to be a bannonet prodding the ground in front of the solider, now they use mine detectors.
These are only 2 examples, but the only reason these changes happened was safety of the workforce, I would not like to be in the place of the miner who had to use a canaries instead of the gas detecting equipment they have nowadays.
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hitman why did you fall off were you rushing to make more money or careless,not having a pop but thats how most accidents happen,when ive fell i know why and put it right
1st time the bottom went out from under me & the 2nd time the ladder broke :(
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That sounds safe enough for me, Matt, and I regularly use a stand off for gutter cleans; but using one for routine 1st access to windows trad window cleaning wouldn't be practical.
Firstly you can't close your ladders properly and they're quite top heavy to cart about all day.
For the odd 'dodgy window' yes, but for routine window cleaning, 'no' IMHO.
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hi c and b window cleaning i apoligise wholeheartly.i read your post wrong!yes it would be safer to put it on the sill in regards to ladders slipping.ive only ever used mine for gutter clearing and conny roof cleaning with a wfp sometimes.
regards
dazmond
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From a health and safety view then they should be banned for window cleaning above ground floor. Say 2 metres is the highest your feet should be allowed to rest. This will allow for gate hopping and high ground floor or shop windows. Also for access to a flat roof at first floor level I would say it would be an acceptable risk.
But from a selfish commercial view then don't ban them! Trad window cleaners have dwindled to an irrelevance around my way - perhaps some older semi-retired gent or a raggit and run merchant might use them; but any serious competition to my business, unlike just two or three years ago, no longer comes from trad users.
Because trad users who want a successful (as in good hourly rate) business for the long term will switch to wfp.
Around here in Bristol that has already happened and "oop North" it will happen eventually. The only traddies round here are viewed as "bathroom window and frame dodgers" and are no threat whatsoever. The number of people willing to pay a premium for trad are just a handful of luddites and not enough to build a business upon. Period.
you forgot about being able to use ladders in winter when your wfp wouldnt work
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Yes we should ban them and the reason, there is an alternative that will do the job without the chance even a remote one that the cleaner will die.
In the 1800's miners used canaries to detect explosive gases, then in 1815 the miners lamps was used, since them it has been updated many times and nowdays the casaulty rate from explosions in this country and many around the world is almost nil.
In ww1 and ww11 mine detecting use to be a bannonet prodding the ground in front of the solider, now they use mine detectors.
These are only 2 examples, but the only reason these changes happened was safety of the workforce, I would not like to be in the place of the miner who had to use a canaries instead of the gas detecting equipment they have nowadays.
If ultimate safety was a real concern to any of us, then we would all stop driving - something which we all treat as an everyday activity. According to government statistics, there are 12 ladder deaths a year and 3000 road deaths a year. Sad as these ladder accidents are, we need to keep safety in perspective.
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what are you on about?NEVER rest the stand off on the sill!!underneath on the brickwork if your using one.
dont give out dodgy/dangerous advice!! ::)
What?
By resting a stand-off on the brickwork the only benefit is that it will give you more room to work with (face not up against the glass), for me a stand-off is also there to help prevent ladder slippage. In fact that is the main purpose of one so far as I am concerned.
It isnt dodgy nor is it dangerous. I am not giving out dangerous advice. It saved me a couple of times from ladder slip, if I hadn't have been using the ladder and stand-off in that way there would have been at least 1 more casualty to the statistics.
It makes it safer. You obviously are mis-interpreting what I am suggesting, please dont run this suggestion down until you are sure you understand how it works.
The way a ladder stand off works is the wider legs, this gives you more stability, they are not designed to be placed on the sil!
They dont stop ladders sliding from underneath you!
They stop the ladders from sliding laterally!
To stop the ladder from sliding underneath you, you need a rojak pad or similar.
Matt
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i tend to use a stand off to clean domar windows and thats all
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Hi guys, personally i will not use ladders already taken a 15ft tumble and walked away with nothing but sore ribs and shoulder at the time ladder was at good angle and solid ground the window was straightforward and no wider than 3 ft. but something happened and the ladder just went sideways and me straight down!
for those who say it's the user, not ladders i will point out to you this was 1 arguement when seatbelts came in, back then people poo pood these but i bet virtually everyone here now wears one!
so no one is going to tell you how to work? - well you cant smoke in your van, use your mobile while driving and many other things that the 'great british' public are told to do weather they like it or not.
the use of ladders is going to be about perception not how many die or get injured.
ladders will be allowed as 'private' use but at some point ladders by companies will (i think) be banned.
i saw a atelite fitter the other day install a dish, and fair play he drilled into the building and secured his ladder so he took his H&S seriously
At the end of the day if you wish to risk YOUR life for health for £10 then thats upto you i prefer these days to stay on the ground.
and ICWalker - not to start an arguement but i have got many window sills/frames cleaner than trad guys! esp 1st floor ones
Darran
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i saw a atelite fitter the other day install a dish, and fair play he drilled into the building and secured his ladder so he took his H&S seriously
sky would sack him if he didnt
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Stan,
then does this not make the point that unless this is done you will not be allowed to use ladders?
Darran
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passed a sky man with non of the abuth must be cos its easter sunday ??? ???
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Hmmm - looks like I've touched a nerve Stan ...
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Stan,
then does this not make the point that unless this is done you will not be allowed to use ladders?
Darran
thats skys own policy to stop workers claiming for ladder falls,i have no problem with people making the use of ladders safer for emplees but one man outfits should be able to get on with there own safty arrangements
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Hmmm - looks like I've touched a nerve Stan ...
not really you just want them when it suits you,as for up north theres at least 10 trad men to 1 wfp man ,it only seems that wfp rules because they use this forum more for technical advice
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Respect the ladder and the ladder will respect you 8)
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Respect the ladder and the ladder will respect you 8)
well said ,im going now to wash and polish my ladders ;D ;D
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Respect the ladder and the ladder will respect you 8)
well said ,im going now to wash and polish my ladders ;D ;D
and allow it time to sneeze into her makeup bag too ;D
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Respect the ladder and the ladder will respect you 8)
well said ,im going now to wash and polish my ladders ;D ;D
and allow it time to sneeze into her makeup bag too ;D
??? ??? ???
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;D guys girls Ladders will not be banned we have been here before just live with them,its the idiot ::)behind the Ladder that dont respect it ::) man always blames bad tools HELLO :o
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;D guys girls Ladders will not be banned we have been here before just live with them,its the idiot ::)behind the Ladder that dont respect it ::) man always blames bad tools HELLO :o
So this guy is an idiot http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/wakefieldnews/Wakefield-window-cleaner39s-fall-death.6187040.jp
I am sure his family will be happy to hear that.
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;D guys girls Ladders will not be banned we have been here before just live with them,its the idiot ::)behind the Ladder that dont respect it ::) man always blames bad tools HELLO :o
So this guy is an idiot http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/wakefieldnews/Wakefield-window-cleaner39s-fall-death.6187040.jp
I am sure his family will be happy to hear that.
no hes not an idiot but we will never know if he took a silly risk or set the ladders wrong
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;D guys girls Ladders will not be banned we have been here before just live with them,its the idiot ::)behind the Ladder that dont respect it ::) man always blames bad tools HELLO :o
So this guy is an idiot http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/wakefieldnews/Wakefield-window-cleaner39s-fall-death.6187040.jp
I am sure his family will be happy to hear that.
no hes not an idiot but we will never know if he took a silly risk or set the ladders wrong
or he just had an accident that did not need to happen.
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They dont stop ladders sliding from underneath you!
My personal experience, which is for 10 years every upstairs window I did I did with a standoff on the sill, would dispute that Matt, I can think of 3 or 4 occasions, when used whilst resting on a sill that the standoff prevented the ladder from slipping any further than it did, thus saving me from a fall.
dont stop ya bum from flexin tho does it m8 ;D lol
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It still winks ;)
HAHA ;D propper belly wobble ;D lol
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How many hours do the people of this nation spend behind the wheel? And how many hours up a ladder? Proportionately,.. per hour, the risk of death from being up a ladder is hundreds of times greater than the risk from driving.
When you get into a car though, you recognise the potential for injury & wear a seatbelt though. You can't remove the risks but you can minimise them.
Ladders will never be banned, but the restrictions currently laid out in law will one day be enforced and on that day a lot of the trad guys here will get a shock. You're only allowed to use ladders where there is no practicable alternative. In 99% of situations there is an alternative.
A basic WFP setup (backpack) can cost less than trad equipment,.. I know I'll never convince everyone to switch completely but I'd love if everyone had at least a basic wfp kit just for the awkward & dangerous windows.
Yes we should ban them and the reason, there is an alternative that will do the job without the chance even a remote one that the cleaner will die.
In the 1800's miners used canaries to detect explosive gases, then in 1815 the miners lamps was used, since them it has been updated many times and nowdays the casaulty rate from explosions in this country and many around the world is almost nil.
In ww1 and ww11 mine detecting use to be a bannonet prodding the ground in front of the solider, now they use mine detectors.
These are only 2 examples, but the only reason these changes happened was safety of the workforce, I would not like to be in the place of the miner who had to use a canaries instead of the gas detecting equipment they have nowadays.
If ultimate safety was a real concern to any of us, then we would all stop driving - something which we all treat as an everyday activity. According to government statistics, there are 12 ladder deaths a year and 3000 road deaths a year. Sad as these ladder accidents are, we need to keep safety in perspective.
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A basic WFP setup (backpack) can cost less than trad equipment,..
Oh come on! Might be pretty cheap these days, but not cheaper than traditional!
Ladder (good trade one) £150-200
Bucket, scrims, squeegee etc... another £50-70 or so max.
Like to see you get a backpack, pole, brush, water barrels and purification kit for £250!
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I do have wfp Nat. But I just don't see the point of this thread.
Regardless of how many window cleaners there are compared to the whole population, the number of deaths (for all ladder users, not just window cleaners) do not warrant a ban by H&S. Now insurance companies refusing to insure for ladders may be another issue and one that could lead to the demise of professional trad cleaners.
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Like to see you get a backpack, pole, brush, water barrels and purification kit for £250!
Harris pole £15
Small DI filled £80 odd
ebay or WCW backpack about £100
Hose & connectors £20
Barrels £20 (£4 each)
Thats enough to do the odd awkward window. Add a cheap RO (about £140 for a 300gpd system on ebay) and you can go WFP full time, even if you still do downstairs trad.
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I agree there shouldn't be a ban, and there won't be. for those 12 deaths, how many serious injurys were there? 100x as many? and how many minor injuries?
Ladders should be used sensibly, and the law says only where no other option is practicable. I just annoys me that so many choose to ignore this part of the law. I do use ladders myself on occasion, but only where wfp won't do the job and only for short duration work.
I do have wfp Nat. But I just don't see the point of this thread.
Regardless of how many window cleaners there are compared to the whole population, the number of deaths (for all ladder users, not just window cleaners) do not warrant a ban by H&S. Now insurance companies refusing to insure for ladders may be another issue and one that could lead to the demise of professional trad cleaners.
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I don't know how old the 12 deaths is, but at Windex 2010, in the Heath & Safety senimar the death rate last year was over 50, and its has been steadly rising for the last 3 years.
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50 might of been total ladder deaths in the year and 12 the Nat stated might be the number of window cleaners that died out of that 50.
Matt
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Well 12 imo is 12 too many
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still be up my ladders tuesday they wont be banned so why people still keep saying it grow up people :)
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Yes we should ban them and the reason, there is an alternative that will do the job without the chance even a remote one that the cleaner will die.
In the 1800's miners used canaries to detect explosive gases, then in 1815 the miners lamps was used, since them it has been updated many times and nowdays the casaulty rate from explosions in this country and many around the world is almost nil.
In ww1 and ww11 mine detecting use to be a bannonet prodding the ground in front of the solider, now they use mine detectors.
These are only 2 examples, but the only reason these changes happened was safety of the workforce, I would not like to be in the place of the miner who had to use a canaries instead of the gas detecting equipment they have nowadays.
I cleaned some very dirty sills the other day and there is know way a wfp would have got them clean explain how they can be cleaned without getting up close by ladder?.
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Lets also ban cars they cause loads of deaths each year and you have to have a licence to drive one?. :D
Basically theres lots of things that people use that can be dangerous but they can be used by anyone Nailguns,circular saws,Grinders,Chainsaws (at home domestically),Welders, are just a few that can cause serious damage or death if not used correctly but will they be banned (not a chance the same goes for ladders if used correctly they are safe.
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Sorry, I misquoted the number doing it from memory. It is provisionally 16 deaths in 2007/2008. 52 deaths in 2006/2007. More deaths, but still relatively small compared to about 3000 a year on the roads.
Any death that is caused by accident is a death too many, but these things will continue to happen in all walks of life. Let's not get paranoid about these things.
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A basic WFP setup (backpack) can cost less than trad equipment,..
Oh come on! Might be pretty cheap these days, but not cheaper than traditional!
Ladder (good trade one) £150-200
Bucket, scrims, squeegee etc... another £50-70 or so max.
Like to see you get a backpack, pole, brush, water barrels and purification kit for £250!
I set up for about £60 total i was given my ladder,i reckon you are talking atleast £500 for a basic WFP setup.
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Nope £396 if you went to wcw, if you shopped around you would be able to save another £100
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Yes we should ban them and the reason, there is an alternative that will do the job without the chance even a remote one that the cleaner will die.
In the 1800's miners used canaries to detect explosive gases, then in 1815 the miners lamps was used, since them it has been updated many times and nowdays the casaulty rate from explosions in this country and many around the world is almost nil.
In ww1 and ww11 mine detecting use to be a bannonet prodding the ground in front of the solider, now they use mine detectors.
These are only 2 examples, but the only reason these changes happened was safety of the workforce, I would not like to be in the place of the miner who had to use a canaries instead of the gas detecting equipment they have nowadays.
I cleaned some very dirty sills the other day and there is know way a wfp would have got them clean explain how they can be cleaned without getting up close by ladder?.
Well the easiest way would be to clean them from the inside, if you cannot do that then I would change the angle of my angle adaptor fit a mop on it soak the mop in some detergent, or oil flo or any other chechimals that remove stubborm stains, I would then agitate the mop on the sill thereby removing the dirt, I would then change over to my wfp brush and rinse off.
Its not rocket science, it cleaning windows from the safety of the ground.
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Yes we should ban them and the reason, there is an alternative that will do the job without the chance even a remote one that the cleaner will die.
In the 1800's miners used canaries to detect explosive gases, then in 1815 the miners lamps was used, since them it has been updated many times and nowdays the casaulty rate from explosions in this country and many around the world is almost nil.
In ww1 and ww11 mine detecting use to be a bannonet prodding the ground in front of the solider, now they use mine detectors.
These are only 2 examples, but the only reason these changes happened was safety of the workforce, I would not like to be in the place of the miner who had to use a canaries instead of the gas detecting equipment they have nowadays.
I cleaned some very dirty sills the other day and there is know way a wfp would have got them clean explain how they can be cleaned without getting up close by ladder?.
Well the easiest way would be to clean them from the inside, if you cannot do that then I would change the angle of my angle adaptor fit a mop on it soak the mop in some detergent, or oil flo or any other chechimals that remove stubborm stains, I would then agitate the mop on the sill thereby removing the dirt, I would then change over to my wfp brush and rinse off.
Its not rocket science, it cleaning windows from the safety of the ground.
Im sorry you didn't see these sills they would not have cleaned from the ground end of.Yes they would probably have cleaned ok from inside the house but that doesn't look very professional having to go in the house IMO.Whatever anybody thinks the way i did them up the ladder was the best and quickest way.
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[ IMO.Whatever anybody thinks the way i did them up the ladder was the best and quickest way.
sadly against WAHR and you are probably working illegally, and chance of thousand of pounds in fines and court costs
idealrob
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[ IMO.Whatever anybody thinks the way i did them up the ladder was the best and quickest way.
sadly against WAHR and you are probably working illegally, and chance of thousand of pounds in fines and court costs
idealrob
Please explain why it is against wahr?
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i love it when people qoute wahr without knowing the facts ;D
im insured for working off a ladder so i guess my insurance company knows fook all ::)
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im insured for working off a ladder so i guess my insurance company knows fook all ::)
You're insurance company will know very well how to quote the law and avoid paying out a claim,...
My insurance covers me for ladder use also, but the small print states that I'm only insured where my activities are "within the law",....
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im insured for working off a ladder so i guess my insurance company knows fook all ::)
You're insurance company will know very well how to quote the law and avoid paying out a claim,...
My insurance covers me for ladder use also, but the small print states that I'm only insured where my activities are "within the law",....
i am insured for acces and also cleaning gutters off a ladder, its what is stated on my policy 8)
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i love it when people qoute wahr without knowing the facts ;D
The whad state you MUST use the safest alternative method first if there is one.
I pointed out 2 safer alternatives, he didn't even consider 1
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a wfp pole, it seems to do the job
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Thats enough to do the odd awkward window. Add a cheap RO (about £140 for a 300gpd system on ebay) and you can go WFP full time, even if you still do downstairs trad.
dont need a wfp system for the odd awkard window as i tell the customer i cant do it if its dangerous and nobody complains
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. Now insurance companies refusing to insure for ladders may be another issue and one that could lead to the demise of professional trad cleaners.
insurance companys wont pay out if you have spikes on your ladders so thats most around here up the creek as we all have spikes
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[quote
Please explain why it is against wahr?
You can only use a ladder after consulting safer options, as all work has to be done from the ground, also if you are to use a ladder a full written risk assesment has to be made, and then if you still use a ladder it has to be secured. Fact
forget the WAHR, do you secure & do risk assesment
As for the post of the paralysed window cleaner not getting paid out as he was not covered, or as most policys have a work within the law get out, like the paralysed w/c
as most who thinks, s*d it I l just use a ladder, and never reply and hope the post goes away, I lookh forward to yoyr reply
idealrob
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Why do people keep on moaning about ladders and wfp
1, the goverment will not spend money enforcing wfp and banning ladders above ground floor
2, the only thing that will happen in the long run is the goverment will charge each window cleaner a licence fee for large companys the fee will be huge
i don't know about you but the goverment get enough money off me with out having to spend hundreds of pound each year to get a licence
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Why do people keep on moaning about ladders and wfp
1, the goverment will not spend money enforcing wfp and banning ladders above ground floor
2, the only thing that will happen in the long run is the goverment will charge each window cleaner a licence fee for large companys the fee will be huge
i don't know about you but the goverment get enough money off me with out having to spend hundreds of pound each year to get a licence
You are right, the goverment will never ever spend mony enforcing WFP, but the goverment are spending millions enforcing WAHR and other h & S laws, why, because its money, and money rules the world. The sad paralysed window cleaner, whos insurance would not pay out, is now supported by taxes for him & his familly, new bungalow etc, which he is entitled to, and as the advert says "shattered lives". Thats why they brought out WAHR,
its not about trad v WFP, its about going home safely every night, abiding by the law and looking after my staff as well as the people we work for and their tennants
idealrob
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No that would be silly.
By the way I am wfp but ladders are needed at times by all sorts of people, you cannot make the world completely safe,
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if ladders are banned for window cleaners why do they sell them also if you dont have a waterfed set you cant use it as a safer alternative can you so there for my only way of cleaning windows is using a ladder :)
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if you dont have a waterfed set you cant use it as a safer alternative can you
If you've been in the business 12 months or more and haven't made enough money to invest in a basic setup then you should really go and get a factory job.
dont need a wfp system for the odd awkard window as i tell the customer i cant do it if its dangerous and nobody complains
If only all window cleaners had the same attitude Stan. There's a lot of guys here that could learn from you.
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hi
i work on my own or with my wife i do all houses and only go to the first floor i know how to use a ladders safley if i have people working for me then i would use wfp due to the fact not all emplayees have the brains they were born with. at the end of the day ladders are safe but sometime people do have accidents with them.
lots of people die evey year due to user error or faulty equipment thats life
plus wfp hasn't been around long enough for doctors to know if their are any issues regarding neck & arm muscel problems
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hi
i work on my own or with my wife i do all houses and only go to the first floor i know how to use a ladders safley if i have people working for me then i would use wfp due to the fact not all emplayees have the brains they were born with. at the end of the day ladders are safe but sometime people do have accidents with them.
lots of people die evey year due to user error or faulty equipment thats life
plus wfp hasn't been around long enough for doctors to know if their are any issues regarding neck & arm muscel problems
Wfp has been around for almost 50 years which is enough time to find out if there are any health risks.
It started in the USA the country thats likes to sue anyone for $millions, if their was a heath risk with wfp then the law suits would have started, so far I have not heard of one.
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if ladders are banned for window cleaners why do they sell them also if you dont have a waterfed set you cant use it as a safer alternative can you so there for my only way of cleaning windows is using a ladder :)
you can go into any maplins store and buy a radio scammer, which is legal for maplins to sell, but if you turn it on you are breaking the law.
The same applys with ladders, you can legally buy one but if you use it against the whad then you are breaking the law.
and finally you cannot claim that because you don't have a wfp system, leaves you no alternative but to use ladders, the hse will say don't clean the windows until you do have the right equipment for the job, and with a basic wfp system costing around £300, if you are in business and you cannot afford this, then its about time you looked at whether window cleaning for a living, is worthwhile for you.
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You know what i am going to do is start a new poll thread to see how many wfp window cleaners have have trip or slip due to wfp
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i have got more than enough to go out and buy a van set up but i choose not to i enjoy climbing ladders, ive had a few scary moments now i use a stopper on some windows where needed, i did use a standoff but did not feel comfortable with one so back to mitts also have ladder spikes that get quite a lot use
have been looking at a backpack for windows i wont clean off ladders as got a friend with ploe system to get water from
I still think they will not enforce a ladder ban as its silly people using b and q domestic ladders with no clue make ladders look unsafe :)
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if 3 holidays a new car last year is not making a living as well as buying my house then maybe
you dont know me or my buissness so why do you make comments it personal choice how i clean plus wfp isnt that good any way and i like to see how cleanmy work is :)
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if/when the h&s or goverment ban window cleaners from using ladders and enforce wfp do you honestly think is will stop their it wont they will bring out more rules and regulations regards the safe use of wfp and might strart charging us operator fees for the water we would be using
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[quote
Please explain why it is against wahr?
You can only use a ladder after consulting safer options, as all work has to be done from the ground, also if you are to use a ladder a full written risk assesment has to be made, and then if you still use a ladder it has to be secured. Fact
forget the WAHR, do you secure & do risk assesment
As for the post of the paralysed window cleaner not getting paid out as he was not covered, or as most policys have a work within the law get out, like the paralysed w/c
as most who thinks, s*d it I l just use a ladder, and never reply and hope the post goes away, I lookh forward to yoyr reply
idealrob
He already said that he wouldn't be able to clean that particular sill from the ground, although I will concede he might have been able to have cleaned it from inside.
As you are an employer, then I think you are right to ensure that everything is done as much from the ground as possible.
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if/when the h&s or goverment ban window cleaners from using ladders and enforce wfp do you honestly think is will stop their it wont they will bring out more rules and regulations regards the safe use of wfp and might strart charging us operator fees for the water we would be using
The govement will not ban ladders, not because they think they should be, but because of the outcry from trad window cleaners and the negative publicity it will cause them.
Instead they will allow the HSE- Courts and the Insurance Companies to police it.
The HSE and Insurance companies will turn a blind eye if you use ladders, but when you have a fall and you die or are injured, the insurance company will point to the whad and decline your claim, then the hse will prosicute you.
If you are lucky you might recover enough so you can go back to work to pay the court fine and costs, if not then that nice home will end up being auctioned and you will join the end of a long list waiting for council homes.
and as for being charged for water, the goverment and water companies have said that every home in the UK will be on a meter, so the wfp cleaners will be paying for the water they use.
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. Now insurance companies refusing to insure for ladders may be another issue and one that could lead to the demise of professional trad cleaners.
insurance companys wont pay out if you have spikes on your ladders so thats most around here up the creek as we all have spikes
Why won't they pay out for spikes, Stan?
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Sorry, this is just scaremainering now. HSE has already said they do not want to ban ladders, just make their use safer. The wahr is also wooly in parts - safety devices are mentioned, but not defined. When all of the rules are clearly defined, then we will all know what exactly we are supposed to do. At the moment, the rules are open to interpretation.
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A few final questions
1-Are ladders banned?
2-Do some wfp guys want them banned to gain more customers?
3-Are ladders at fault or is it the user?
4-If ladders were banned who would be going around checking?
5-If a maximum height was introduced whos going to come and check with there tape measure?
6-Is there some jobs you have to have a ladder for?
7-A test and licence, would it stop falls?
8-Would a ban be more to stop a little business rather than for the falls?
9-What if theres a drought would windows have to be left dirty?
10-Is it me or a people trying to ruin one of the last jobs you can start doing without to much rules and regulations?.
When i get a few more customers i will go WFP but i shall still have my ladder in the van because i know there will be times i need it.
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if/when the h&s or goverment ban window cleaners from using ladders and enforce wfp do you honestly think is will stop their it wont they will bring out more rules and regulations regards the safe use of wfp and might strart charging us operator fees for the water we would be using
The govement will not ban ladders, not because they think they should be, but because of the outcry from trad window cleaners and the negative publicity it will cause them.
Instead they will allow the HSE- Courts and the Insurance Companies to police it.
The HSE and Insurance companies will turn a blind eye if you use ladders, but when you have a fall and you die or are injured, the insurance company will point to the whad and decline your claim, then the hse will prosicute you.
If you are lucky you might recover enough so you can go back to work to pay the court fine and costs, if not then that nice home will end up being auctioned and you will join the end of a long list waiting for council homes.
and as for being charged for water, the goverment and water companies have said that every home in the UK will be on a meter, so the wfp cleaners will be paying for the water they use.
I already have a council house and it's quite a nice one in a tourist area :D.But i get your point but i do belive ladders will stay but tighter regulations will no doubt come in the future.
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If I lived and worked this malarky in the UK, I would be WFP only I think. Firstly, it seems 95% of the work is outsides only. Nearly all domestic windows open outwards for some reason, and it seems to be faster than trad. The ladders I've seen on this forum look a bit narrow and awkward, so I would be tempted to go WFP just because of that.
Nearly all of the domestic stuff I have over here is one piece upvc framed. A dodlle to do trad. Very good points to both sides of this discussion have already been made hundreds of times on here. Some of us wonder how many times it will be discussed, but that's the way it is lol.
I am in the Carpet scrubbers section of this forum now and again. They get the same thing on there. Van mounted and portable systems. Gets abit heated too sometimes.
I suspect that the WFP guys would agree with me when I say it must be a few things that disadvantage them when getting custies. I may be wrong, but this is what I imagine the problems to be.
Custies don't understand the difference between pure water and tap water.
Custies think it's a lazy way of doing the job.
Custies think a 10 quid job should at least leave the WC sweating for his money.
They think if the street has a trad WC that a WFP WC is cheating for some reason. ???
To get rid of these attitudes, it would be easier for the WFP guys, if the custy had no choice, so the only option would be WFP. Problems solved in one easy step.
It seems that this topic seems to be brought up MOSTLY by WFP guys. I'm not having a pop at WFPers. Like I said, I would be WFP if I lived in UK. But if the other WC's working next to you are trad, don't worry about it. They will all land in prison soon, or so it would seem from the posts on this thread. ;)
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. Now insurance companies refusing to insure for ladders may be another issue and one that could lead to the demise of professional trad cleaners.
insurance companys wont pay out if you have spikes on your ladders so thats most around here up the creek as we all have spikes
Why won't they pay out for spikes, Stan?
might be wrong there,but they wont pay out for diy ladders and when you spike the ladders the warrenty on the ladders are void as the makers dont regonise them as a safty device
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A few final questions
1-Are ladders banned?
2-Do some wfp guys want them banned to gain more customers?
3-Are ladders at fault or is it the user?
4-If ladders were banned who would be going around checking?
5-If a maximum height was introduced whos going to come and check with there tape measure?
6-Is there some jobs you have to have a ladder for?
7-A test and licence, would it stop falls?
8-Would a ban be more to stop a little business rather than for the falls?
9-What if theres a drought would windows have to be left dirty?
10-Is it me or a people trying to ruin one of the last jobs you can start doing without to much rules and regulations?.
When i get a few more customers i will go WFP but i shall still have my ladder in the van because i know there will be times i need it.
A few final questions
1-Are ladders banned?
They are not banned, they are supposed to be the last resort in cleaning windows
2-Do some wfp guys want them banned to gain more customers?
I don’t think, I think that wfp’s users now understand that you do not have to put your health or life on the line just to earn a living.
3-Are ladders at fault or is it the user?
Both
4-If ladders were banned who would be going around checking?
Men in rain coats and a clip board
5-If a maximum height was introduced whos going to come and check with there tape measure?
See answer 4
6-Is there some jobs you have to have a ladder for?
There are many jobs and industries that ladders are the only practical option for use, window cleaning is now not one of them.
7-A test and licence, would it stop falls?
A test and re-tests every couple of years - ladder mot and proper training would help
8-Would a ban be more to stop a little business rather than for the falls?
Sorry I don’t understand the question?
9-What if theres a drought would windows have to be left dirty?
A drought only lasts for a few weeks so if the windows are left dirty, then so be it, the last proper drought was in 1976, so it not that regular to really affect the livelihood of cleaners.
10-Is it me or a people trying to ruin one of the last jobs you can start doing without to much rules and regulations?.
No, its just people who are trying to prevent cleaners dying.
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Banning ladders would actually make our job more dangerous.
Sometimes the safest "reasonably practicable" way to clean a window is to climb up a ladder.
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Banning ladders would actually make our job more dangerous.
Explain?
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the roads are dangerous, so should cars be banned? ;D ;D ;D
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the roads are dangerous, so should cars be banned? ;D ;D ;D
Only when teleportation becomes a reasonably practicable alternative. :)
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the roads are dangerous, so should cars be banned? ;D ;D ;D
Only when teleportation becomes a reasonably practicable alternative. :)
unless it drops u in the middle of the road ;D
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LOL,.. touche!
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Banning ladders would actually make our job more dangerous.
Explain?
OK heres one:
I do a school in my area, it has a row of windows accessible from a flat roof. There is no way to reach the windows from the ground via a telescopic pole.
The school is fitted with fixing points for a ladder and a harness wire on the roof.
The flat roof has 2 stages so it would be impossible to access via a cherry picker or platform.
The only alternative I can imagine would be to dangle from a rope tethered to a helicopter.
Not practicable.
The safest method according to the risk assessments is using a chuffing ladder.
Otherwise we are either:
1. Dangling from a helicopter
or
2. Using some other as yet un-devised, un-tested method.
There is no reason for us not to use ladders. So long as we're not going to be silly billies about it.
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:D
Here an interesting point.
In Scotland it is law that all windows above a certain height on new buildings be cleanable from the inside.
How long before that's law down south I wander........
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:D
The law does not include schools and hotels tho for obvious reasons.
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Obviously in that situation ladders are reasonably practicable & I have no problem with their correct usage. 99% of window cleaning isn't like that though.
Its easy to justify 1 specific use,.. but all day every day is completely different.
Banning ladders would actually make our job more dangerous.
Explain?
OK heres one:
I do a school in my area, it has a row of windows accessible from a flat roof. There is no way to reach the windows from the ground via a telescopic pole.
The school is fitted with fixing points for a ladder and a harness wire on the roof.
The flat roof has 2 stages so it would be impossible to access via a cherry picker or platform.
The only alternative I can imagine would be to dangle from a rope tethered to a helicopter.
Not practicable.
The safest method according to the risk assessments is using a chuffing ladder.
Otherwise we are either:
1. Dangling from a helicopter
or
2. Using some other as yet un-devised, un-tested method.
There is no reason for us not to use ladders. So long as we're not going to be silly billies about it.
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Obviously in that situation ladders are reasonably practicable & I have no problem with their correct usage. 99% of window cleaning isn't like that though.
Its easy to justify 1 specific use,.. but all day every day is completely different.
Banning ladders would actually make our job more dangerous.
Explain?
OK heres one:
I do a school in my area, it has a row of windows accessible from a flat roof. There is no way to reach the windows from the ground via a telescopic pole.
The school is fitted with fixing points for a ladder and a harness wire on the roof.
The flat roof has 2 stages so it would be impossible to access via a cherry picker or platform.
The only alternative I can imagine would be to dangle from a rope tethered to a helicopter.
Not practicable.
The safest method according to the risk assessments is using a chuffing ladder.
Otherwise we are either:
1. Dangling from a helicopter
or
2. Using some other as yet un-devised, un-tested method.
There is no reason for us not to use ladders. So long as we're not going to be silly billies about it.
So did you vote FOR a ban?
If so are you suggesting this ban is somehow selective?
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I VOTE THAT ANY POSTS ABOUT LADDERS AND BAN IN THE TITLE SHOULD BE BANNED!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
OR ANY THREADS ABOUT LADDERS! :D :D :D :D
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I VOTE THAT ANY POSTS ABOUT LADDERS AND BAN IN THE TITLE SHOULD BE BANNED!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
OR ANY THREADS ABOUT LADDERS! :D :D :D :D
why are you shouting Daz
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yawnnnnnnnnnnn iam bored. :P
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:D
Here an interesting point.
In Scotland it is law that all windows above a certain height on new buildings be cleanable from the inside.
How long before that's law down south I wander........
Wouldn't really be a problem for a very long time that would it, as buildings are designed to last for a while
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I voted for a total ban!