Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: wezzy32 on February 23, 2010, 11:26:01 pm
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just looked at a local w/c website and it says on there that if u fall from your ladder on a custy property that they are liableand u can make a claim against them is this correct.
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any trades person working on custy's property has to be aware of certain dangers and is responsible for themselves you have to take care when working i cant see anybody been able to sue a custy , if ladder slips on wet paving etc this happened to me over 7 years ago and even though i had no intention of blaming custy as it was my fault i was told by a solictor who i know if i wanted to purse the matter i would,nt get anywhere
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If its your fault then how could you claim ? Not a good thing to put on a website really, I mean if I read that and was looking for a window cleaner it would put me right off.
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It's not quite that simple. As far as I am aware if there is an accident which leads to serious injury you have to inform the HSE. Then they will investigate. If it is a commercial property they will require to see the companies H&S rep plus the paperwork inc policy on WAH. Along with this they will want to see record of the site induction carried out. From the window cleaner they will want their H&S policy record of training and Method Statement & Risk Assessment.
When they have this they will determine who, if anyone, bears responsibility and who should be fined.
IF they feel the company alone is at fault then the WC could possibly file a civil case against the company. If it is the fault of the WC ie. no H&S policy no MS no RA then the WC wont have a foot to stand on with regard to further action. It may well be that their own insurance won't completely cover them.
Now if it is a private home you would think that the home owner would not have to provide any of the paper work that a company does. This is true, however, the householder bears some responsibility for making sure that the tradesman is competent. Eg. if you employ a plumber the home owner is responsible for hiring a Corgi registered plumber. The same is true of any tradesman. If an accident occurs the HSE should be informed and investigate. The home owner likely will say they presumed the WC was competent, however the HSE could still fine them. Less likely than for a company but possible. The WC would still have to provide any paper work on MS and if he has them RA as well.
As for actual Liability it would be a long shot for the WC to go to the Civil courts to claim negligence from a private home esp if they don't back it up with their own paperwork. It would be easier if it were at a business address as they HAVE to have a H&S policy.
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I just want to add to my previous statement that it is not our view of competent that is important. Rather it is the view of the civil courts and the HSE that matters. We may feel that our 25 years in the business is the most important factor but the magistrate in a civil case may feel that it is a mixture of the type of things WILLIS was talking about in his thread. Which is why IMO to loose someone who understood how things actually work in the world outside of the CIU bubble is such a shame.
No doubt there will be loads of replies mocking the civil procedures but the fact still remains. If an accident occurs we could well end up in the middle of it all. So it IS important that we have an understanding of how things work and one way to get that is to listen to people in the know no matter how much it goes against the grain.
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They are liable as they are your employer.
Matt
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But only if you have complied with the law and secured the ladder as WAHR law says, and how many w/c who use a ladder , secure it. One percent lol Not as leg to stand on
idealrob
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But only if you have complied with the law and secured the ladder as WAHR law says, and how many w/c who use a ladder , secure it. One percent lol Not as leg to stand on
idealrob
It is down to the customer to make sure you are doing the job correctly and safely.
That is why people like Willis have courses, and to educate the general public about.
I personally think having a license scheme in England and Wales would help the industry out a lot.
maybe change it from the powers of local councils to a national body set up by the government.
Matt
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licence will not make one bit of difference. i have one and doesn't make my job any better or make me earn mor emoney. it's nothing more than a tax for local councils.
As for H&S it is your responsibility. Everytime you do a job you are constantly monitoring situations and risk assessing in yer head. i'd also imagione if you had a fall or accident and claime da custy you would ruin yer business overnight
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According to HSE it is both the window cleaner (contractor) and customers responsibility that H&S guidie lines are followed.
If you want a new boiler in the home, you look for engineers and plumbers that are CORGI registered don't you?
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Ahh...all of us debating one way or t'other, but the one person who would have been in a far better position to educate us in how we would fare has been harangued off the forum.....
But talking off blame; If you have dodgy paving stones on your path and the postman comes a cropper as a result, then it is YOU who is in the do-do.
Who dutifully went out and cleared the snow off their path in all the snow we had?
Anyone enters your property and slips on your path can then sue you if they are hurt, had you left 6 inches of snow on there and they still fell over then it would be tough luck on them...
Same goes for snow/ice laden pavements, if the council does nothing then they can't be blamed in the event of someone falling over and breaking their neck, but if they clear the pavement, or salt it and so on, and someone then falls over then the council will then be liable...
Isn't it wonderful living in this lovely "blame culture" society we now have.....not >:(
Ian
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According to HSE it is both the window cleaner (contractor) and customers responsibility that H&S guidie lines are followed.
If you want a new boiler in the home, you look for engineers and plumbers that are CORGI registered don't you?
so do you have any H&S qualifications then that make you able and competent to carry out a risk assessment?
you can't just say oh aye i can carry out a risk assessment and start writing stuff down. you have to be shown what to and be competent in doing it
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the occupiers liability act which was extended to include tresspasers, means that if it is forseeable that someone will come onto your property, then you have to take REASONABLE (legal minefield- spent the best part of 2 hours in a lecture arguing about this) steps to ensure their safety while on your property! Basically in the case of a window cleaner as long as the home owner has taken reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the window cleaner then the blame should lie on the cleaner himself, for instance if the cleaner falls of the ladder due to carelessness it is the cleaners fault, but if the ladder slips due to an icy footpath or unlevel ground, it could be argued that it was the home owners fault, as they should have taken precautions to ensure ground was level or salt was used on paths. Still cases are very often not clear cut and the the words FORSEEABLE and REASONABLE mean that the lines can be blurred beyond recognition. Personally i think that its a load of dung, and that if most home owners even new of these laws they wouldnt have a trades man around the place, especially not on a ladder! that would leave the country in some state...
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According to HSE it is both the window cleaner (contractor) and customers responsibility that H&S guidie lines are followed.
If you want a new boiler in the home, you look for engineers and plumbers that are CORGI registered don't you?
so do you have any H&S qualifications then that make you able and competent to carry out a risk assessment?
you can't just say oh aye i can carry out a risk assessment and start writing stuff down. you have to be shown what to and be competent in doing it
The HSE does not require qualifications to write a risk assessment. It does however give you a guide in how to do them. Plus you can pay to go on a course if you like.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/fivesteps.htm
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lets put it like this. in my last plac eof work if i had given someone the task of writing a ra then they would have to be competent in what they are doing. if something happened and they asked to see RA and asked who person was and what training they had in RA and i said none then my balls would be on the chopping board.
you have to remember these are living documents and should be done correctly. as long as you are competent in doing them then everything is fine.
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Ahh...all of us debating one way or t'other, but the one person who would have been in a far better position to educate us in how we would fare has been harangued off the forum.....
But talking off blame; If you have dodgy paving stones on your path and the postman comes a cropper as a result, then it is YOU who is in the do-do.True. I would imagain our house insurance has liability to cover this??
Who dutifully went out and cleared the snow off their path in all the snow we had?
Anyone enters your property and slips on your path can then sue you if they are hurt, had you left 6 inches of snow on there and they still fell over then it would be tough luck on them...
Same goes for snow/ice laden pavements, if the council does nothing then they can't be blamed in the event of someone falling over and breaking their neck, but if they clear the pavement, or salt it and so on, and someone then falls over then the council will then be liable...
Isn't it wonderful living in this lovely "blame culture" society we now have.....not >:(
Ian
I do wonder whether some (not you Ian) are confused by Liability and a '££ settlement'. If a WC falls and dies on a property the HSE would investigate and fine the property owner (possibly) however the WC's family would have to sue in order to get a 'payment' from the Public Liability attached to your home insurance. The fine would not go to the family. I think it is up to £2000 for some breaches of the law and £20000 for others, but I stand corrected, my NEBOSH book is in my truck.
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Ahh...all of us debating one way or t'other, but the one person who would have been in a far better position to educate us in how we would fare has been harangued off the forum.....
But talking off blame; If you have dodgy paving stones on your path and the postman comes a cropper as a result, then it is YOU who is in the do-do.True. I would imagain our house insurance has liability to cover this??
Who dutifully went out and cleared the snow off their path in all the snow we had?
Anyone enters your property and slips on your path can then sue you if they are hurt, had you left 6 inches of snow on there and they still fell over then it would be tough luck on them...
Same goes for snow/ice laden pavements, if the council does nothing then they can't be blamed in the event of someone falling over and breaking their neck, but if they clear the pavement, or salt it and so on, and someone then falls over then the council will then be liable...
Isn't it wonderful living in this lovely "blame culture" society we now have.....not >:(
Ian
I do wonder whether some (not you Ian) are confused by Liability and a '££ settlement'. If a WC falls and dies on a property the HSE would investigate and fine the property owner (possibly) however the WC's family would have to sue in order to get a 'payment' from the Public Liability attached to your home insurance. The fine would not go to the family. I think it is up to £2000 for some breaches of the law and £20000 for others, but I stand corrected, my NEBOSH book is in my truck.
Yes the HSE will open a case in a criminal court as it is a criminal offense if your at fault to the cleaner dying, after these proceedings have finished regardless of the outcome, then the family may take proceedings in a civil court to gain damages from the defendant. If the defendant has house insurance then this should cover any damages they may have to pay to the cleaners family, but if there is no house insurance and in some cases people don't have it, then they may loose their home, ofcourse this is all down to the judge in a civil court!!
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the occupiers liability act which was extended to include tresspasers, means that if it is forseeable that someone will come onto your property, then you have to take REASONABLE (legal minefield- spent the best part of 2 hours in a lecture arguing about this) steps to ensure their safety while on your property! Basically in the case of a window cleaner as long as the home owner has taken reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the window cleaner then the blame should lie on the cleaner himself, for instance if the cleaner falls of the ladder due to carelessness it is the cleaners fault, but if the ladder slips due to an icy footpath or unlevel ground, it could be argued that it was the home owners fault, as they should have taken precautions to ensure ground was level or salt was used on paths. Still cases are very often not clear cut and the the words FORSEEABLE and REASONABLE mean that the lines can be blurred beyond recognition. Personally i think that its a load of dung, and that if most home owners even new of these laws they wouldnt have a trades man around the place, especially not on a ladder! that would leave the country in some state...
I think the trouble with all these posts regarding health and safety and who is liable bla bla is that 90% of people on here have no idea what they are talking about and are all giving their opinions with no substance behind them. That is the trouble with the forum, people will read their comments and believe what is being said
Re: your comment highlighted in red, how on earth would a domestic customer get prosecuted under criminal law or sued under civil law because the ground was icy as they hadn't gritted it etc for the window cleaner, the window cleaner who is meant to be the competent person like so many claim to be on here would not have used the ladder in the first place.
The point I am making is lets be realistic when discussing these topics and not condem those individuals who actually have an idea on what the law states
Q) How many people on here have completed a NEBOSH course?
This to me is a worthy qualification and is very indepth regarding health and safety, IOSH courses aren't worth the paper they are written on when it comes to the ins and outs of H&S
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I am sure that I read somewhere in the regs, that while a commercial premises is obliged to provide a safe working environment, a private house holder is not.
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And Ian that bit about clearing the paths of snow was debunked (I heard it on the BBC so it must be true! ;D after they spread the rumour in the first place a few days before) by a solicitor who cleared snow round his gaff and said no court in the land would uphold anyone sueing you for removing snow on your paths.
He said that if they were out and about in snowy conditions then it was incumbant upon them to take extra care and watch out for ice.
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the occupiers liability act which was extended to include tresspasers, means that if it is forseeable that someone will come onto your property, then you have to take REASONABLE (legal minefield- spent the best part of 2 hours in a lecture arguing about this) steps to ensure their safety while on your property! Basically in the case of a window cleaner as long as the home owner has taken reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the window cleaner then the blame should lie on the cleaner himself, for instance if the cleaner falls of the ladder due to carelessness it is the cleaners fault, but if the ladder slips due to an icy footpath or unlevel ground, it could be argued that it was the home owners fault, as they should have taken precautions to ensure ground was level or salt was used on paths. Still cases are very often not clear cut and the the words FORSEEABLE and REASONABLE mean that the lines can be blurred beyond recognition. Personally i think that its a load of dung, and that if most home owners even new of these laws they wouldnt have a trades man around the place, especially not on a ladder! that would leave the country in some state...
I think the trouble with all these posts regarding health and safety and who is liable bla bla is that 90% of people on here have no idea what they are talking about and are all giving their opinions with no substance behind them. That is the trouble with the forum, people will read their comments and believe what is being said
Re: your comment highlighted in red, how on earth would a domestic customer get prosecuted under criminal law or sued under civil law because the ground was icy as they hadn't gritted it etc for the window cleaner, the window cleaner who is meant to be the competent person like so many claim to be on here would not have used the ladder in the first place.
The point I am making is lets be realistic when discussing these topics and not condem those individuals who actually have an idea on what the law states
Q) How many people on here have completed a NEBOSH course?
This to me is a worthy qualification and is very indepth regarding health and safety, IOSH courses aren't worth the paper they are written on when it comes to the ins and outs of H&S
I presume from your post that you have taken a NEBOSH course and that you know exactly what your talking about and if this was the case then you would then know that what I have said are not my opinions and that the Occupiers Liability Act is actually law. I have studied Occupiers Liabilty and case precedents which come with it so I would like to think that I have some knowledge of its workings. The person who started the thread asked whether somebody would be liable if a cleaner fell on their property, I have limited knowledge of WFP issues compared to most of the people on here and for this reason I normally just take advice from the forum, so I was glad that I could actually contribute for once as this is actually something I know a bit about.
Its funny you talk about 90% of people on here don’t know what there talking about when you clearly made that statistic up, it sounds like you don’t know what your talking about.
You actually haven’t highlighted any comment in red or else I cant see it due to web browser issues, either way nowhere have I said in the above post that “a domestic customer get prosecuted under criminal law or sued under civil law because the ground was icy as they hadn't gritted it etc for the window cleaner” please read the posts before making rash and stupid replies. I was telling the person who started the thread that there are some cases whereby the customer may be liable as it all depends on issues of forseeability and also taking reasonable action.
You talk about being realistic, I am being completely realistic to what can potentially happen, I don’t agree with most of it but it is real. Nowhere did I ‘condem’ anyone about what the law states, what do you mean by this?
The main issue I have with your post is that you have completely misunderstood me as I think that most of these laws are a load of sh!t and its left the country in such a state where people are afraid to do anything but I do not agree with the laws and certainly think that a window cleaner should be competent enough to know when they are taking a risk, but quite often that not the way the law or a judge may see it…
(Always thought id never get into an argument on CIU like some of the rif raf on here) ;D ;D :P :P