Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: trevor perry on February 14, 2010, 07:51:39 pm
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i just looked up some statistics on falls and although i agree ladders do have risks are they as dangerous as many would have us believe
falls from ladders = 5 deaths
falls involving a bed = 5 deaths you better secure yourself in tonight
falls from chairs = 4 deaths
falls from stairs or steps = 52 deaths
falls on same level ie slipping tripping and stumbling = 11 deaths
fall on same level involving snow or ice = 2 deaths
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i just looked up some statistics on falls and although i agree ladders do have risks are they as dangerous as many would have us believe
falls from ladders = 5 deaths
falls involving a bed = 5 deaths you better secure yourself in tonight
falls from chairs = 4 deaths
falls from stairs or steps = 52 deaths
falls on same level ie slipping tripping and stumbling = 11 deaths
fall on same level involving snow or ice = 2 deaths
The problem is, of course, how many people are up a ladder daily versus being in bed or sitting on a chair? Another is how many able bodied people are killed falling out of or off a bed/chair versus a ladder? Most of those falls are coffin-dodgers, so you're not comparing like with like.
I do agree that it gives a new perspective.
PW
i do agree with you there is no way going to bed is as dangerous as climbing a ladder but my point was we are often told how dangerous ladders or other activities are by health and safety qouting number of accidents yet if you look at the mortality rates there are far more serious things they should be clamping down on than ladder use.
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This is a good example of how statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say.
On the 'flat roof' thread, I've tried to point out that for the figures to mean anything it would be necessary to qualify them to show whether the accidents were in the regulated (by H&S i.e. registered traders, firms, etc) or the unregulated (unregistered/part time/amateur cleaners) If they fall in the latter then no amount of additional regulations will ever change things - the target sector will never even know the regulations exist, yet will still appear as accident statistics and be used as 'evidence' by the regulators to justify their demands for ever more pointless and unnecessary control.
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Death is a good salesman .Second best is fear. This H S thing is driven by Insurance companies to sell more policies to us suckers. In many other countries they do not have all this H & S and no more people die due to ladders. There will always be accidents and you can do what you like to reduce it. There will always be bad luck and negligent users.Why if more people fall down stairs do we not regulate that by law. Answer no money for insurance companies.
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The bottom line is if there is a safer way of working then that should take priority, especially where there is staff involved.
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The bottom line is if there is a safer way of working then that should take priority, especially where there is staff involved.
1000% correct!, why risk your life on a ladder to clean a window. when there such other safer ways to do so.
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The bottom line is if there is a safer way of working then that should take priority, especially where there is staff involved.
1000% correct!, why risk your life on a ladder to clean a window. when there such other safer ways to do so.
i would agree with this in majority of cases but what if there are other methods but these dont produce satisfactory results an example of this is high internal windows or staircase windows done only once a year, we invested in the ionics internal pole for this and the 40ft pole alone cost £2000 the results where terrible we have also tried the vikan easyshine on a long pole again the results where not good and even if the results had been ok the sills wouldnt have been clean and these can be seen from the galleries in many modern buildings, other options are scaffolding and the risks involved in erecting and dismantling these are higher than the use off ladders, then there is the option of a MEWP apart from the cost involved to clean just a few windows there is also the floor surface tolerance to take into consideration as these machines can be very heavy and access can also be a problem, now from the above you would agree that a ladder secured would be the best solution but in my experience a lot of safety officers think otherwise.
other areas that need addressing are work on balconies and work on glass canopies as the H and s on these issues are ridiculous.
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1st of all death is not the only consideration, anyone off work for 3 months with a break could find themselves in financial difficulty.
And while death is a good sales man, burying your head in the sand does not help you to see anything clearly.
It is understandable that companies who have gone to the expense of working as safe as practicable are more keen on these threads than those who still use ladders and don't want to spend any extra money.
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i just looked up some statistics on falls and although i agree ladders do have risks are they as dangerous as many would have us believe
falls from ladders = 5 deaths
falls involving a bed = 5 deaths you better secure yourself in tonight
falls from chairs = 4 deaths
falls from stairs or steps = 52 deaths
falls on same level ie slipping tripping and stumbling = 11 deaths
fall on same level involving snow or ice = 2 deaths
Over what period of time do these statistics relate to?
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that a ladder secured would be the best solution
Sometimes true, and i agree a ladder sometimes might be the best way, but how many times after the trad moan about wfp and the price and there so called stupid hse rules, they wont even spend £30 to secure a ladder or buy a new one, which has securing device built in,so let them continually break the law and i hope it hurts when they fall. lol
idealrob
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Falls from ladders resulted in 16 deaths and 1146 major injuries, amounting to over a quarter of all major injuries as a result of a fall from height
Its the 1146 figure that is a concern
Trevor, not sure where you got the stats from, try the HSE web site
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/statistics.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/ladders.htm
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that a ladder secured would be the best solution
Sometimes true, and i agree a ladder sometimes might be the best way, but how many times after the trad moan about wfp and the price and there so called stupid hse rules, they wont even spend £30 to secure a ladder or buy a new one, which has securing device built in,so let them continually break the law and i hope it hurts when they fall. lol
idealrob
what is a ladder securing device ? where can i buy such ?
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sod the 1146 what about all them poor sods who just break a shoulder.
Falling hurts !!!!
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For someone to lose his life falling from height is tragic.
We can all See the benefits of adequate training, and protecting employees from pressure put on them by some unscrupulous employers.
We seem to have endless legislation for health and safety at work.
The question that many of us are asking, is this legislation driven by lobbying from insurance companies? Or a genuine concern for our well being?
If it is the former, which many of us suspect it is, how far will they go to eliminate every conceivable risk?
If there is a genuinely concern about safety, how come we don't see any health and safety inspectors in Snowdonia where on average 10 people get themselves killed every year?
There is a general belief creeping in, that insurance companies have hijacked the health and safety band wagon, and will go to any length to avoid paying out on a claim, regardless of the cost and inconvenience to employers.
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that a ladder secured would be the best solution
idealrob
what is a ladder securing device ? where can i buy such ?
HSE have not clarrified what securing a ladder is, but its 19 years since we used ladder but i still have what we use then and they are great, for the bottom we used a Rojac stopper about £30 and we also at that time a ladder limpit which fastened to the top and made me feel 100% safe.
idealrob
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Tosh Try South Africa. no H& S at all you take reasonability yourself and don’t think you can sue. You will need the cash up front to go to court. Please don’t say 3 world because it more modern that living in the U Kiwi are very protected here. The person making the wrong move will never be responsible here.
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South Africa:
http://www.mangaung.co.za/Legal-Services/Documents/Occupational%20Health%20&%20Safety%20Act.pdf
http://www.lexadin.nl/wlg/legis/nofr/oeur/lxwezaf.htm
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Falls from ladders resulted in 16 deaths and 1146 major injuries, amounting to over a quarter of all major injuries as a result of a fall from height
Its the 1146 figure that is a concern
Trevor, not sure where you got the stats from, try the HSE web site
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/statistics.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/ladders.htm
i got the statistics from nationmaster.com under the british mortality statistics, the links you put up say 16 deaths and 11 deaths from scaffolding where as nationmaster.com statistics say 5 deaths from ladders a 3 from scaffolding so i dont know whos figures are correct but it is an interesting fact that on a lot of jobs i have done the health and safety officer has recomended we use a scaffold instead of ladders for some internal work and yet there has been nearly as many deaths from scaffolding as there has from ladders but scaffolding is used by much fewer people, i know for a fact that the risks of errecting working from and then dismantling a scaffold creates far more risk than using a ladder for the work we are talking about here and i can show this from any risk assessment yet H and S prefer the use of scaffolding, as already been stated most H and S officers like to qoute statistics but when it comes to common sense and reasoning on best tool for the job the majority havnt got a clue and will advise using a method that creates more risk.
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i feel my above post is a bit unfair on H and S officers as they have to deal with many issues and not just work at height so they cant be experts on every matter but i feel they should take into consideration the experience of contractor carrying out the job and not just what it says in the little rule books.
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Sunshine that page is advert none of those cases can open on that page. Why are you persisting to knock all my posts. In future I will just ignore your post. I feel you have a axe to grind so have fun.
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I would like to clarify my position in these debates (this and the 'flat roof' thread) as we seem to be digressing.
Sunshine Cleaning: I am not, as you say, 'getting in a flap'. I am concerned that the trend is towards blindly accepting whatever H&S declare to be right. There are many of us who do not automatically agree with them, and for very good reasons.
You imply that we do it the way we do 'because that's the way it has always been done' - not true. Speaking for myself I do it the way I do because I have 40 years experience of ladder work, I have developed and practised my own safety regime in that time and I believe in what I do.
I will never accept that someone without my experience has the right to tell me I am wrong, any more than I would attempt to impose my ideas on anyone else in disregard of their knowledge and experience.
I believe that the key to safety is personal responsibility, and the constant imposition of ever more intricate directives erodes that responsibility to the point that people come to believe that accidents are always 'someone else's fault'. "If you do what the H&S tell you and you still have an accident, it must be because the instructions were wrong"
A FALL FROM A LADDER IS ALWAYS THE FAULT OF THE LADDER USER, NOT THE LADDER
I expect an avalanche of disagreement to that statement, but if you think about it properly it is incontrovertible.
If you can accept my statement as above, then it follows that the safety of the ladder user is his responsibility, and his alone.
What the ladder user needs to achieve that is advice and direction and the ability to THINK FOR HIMSELF to make a proper, informed decision as to the way to ensure his safety.
What do we call this?
A RISK ASSESSMENT
How the ladder user reaches his decision is the result of a myriad of mini choices. It is not a simple distillation of directives (Do this - don't do that etc) every situation is unique and as such requires a unique solution.
Take away from the ladder user the abililty or desire to formulate that solution and you have an infinity of accidents waiting to happen.
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I guess some people Ian dont trust their own judgement.
If a shiner rang me up and asked me how he ought to set his ladders up in a given situation my first reply would be 'Well, you're the one on site, what do you think?'
Its no use believing someone sat in an office (particularly someone with limited or no expereince) is in a better position to dictate how something should be done when thy can't even see the situation or assess it.
Using ladders safely isnt something that is done using a set formula, EVERY new ladder movement brings a new set of challenges. And the only person who can decide how to manage that situation is the person on site using the things.
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Loads of people fall of a horse and break something. Ban horses i say!
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Sunshine that page is advert none of those cases can open on that page. Why are you persisting to knock all my posts. In future I will just ignore your post. I feel you have a axe to grind so have fun.
Wizard.
I'm sorry you are offended by my post, I simply wanted to see if SA had any legislation regarding H&S and it does. Scroll down to Company Law. It's not as tough as ours but for eg an accident needs reporting if there are 14 days missed work. I think ours is a 3 day limitation.
Please feel free to ignore, however, I tend to check out sweeping statements for myself.
Ian.
I'm sorry to have offended you too. However the problem with Risk Assessments is that people often DONT make informed decisions. That is the reason some 'committees' hire scaffold to change a light bulb and some seasoned professionals stick with their own way of doing things and in my experience, can't always put together a completed risk assessment.
I think everyone should be humble enough to at least consider other people's opinion even if they don't have the vast amount of experience we do.
As with wizard, please feel free to ignore any comment I make.
Stuart
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Sunshine that page is advert none of those cases can open on that page. Why are you persisting to knock all my posts. In future I will just ignore your post. I feel you have a axe to grind so have fun.
Wizard.
I'm sorry you are offended by my post, I simply wanted to see if SA had any legislation regarding H&S and it does. Scroll down to Company Law. It's not as tough as ours but for eg an accident needs reporting if there are 14 days missed work. I think ours is a 3 day limitation.
Please feel free to ignore, however, I tend to check out sweeping statements for myself.
Ian.
I'm sorry to have offended you too. However the problem with Risk Assessments is that people often DONT make informed decisions. That is the reason some 'committees' hire scaffold to change a light bulb and some seasoned professionals stick with their own way of doing things and in my experience, can't always put together a completed risk assessment.
I think everyone should be humble enough to at least consider other people's opinion even if they don't have the vast amount of experience we do.
As with wizard, please feel free to ignore any comment I make.
Stuart
Exactly my point - and that includes H&S, and yet I believe H&S still ignore the value of the window cleaners ladder, insisting that ladder training take place using unsuitable (in my opinion) general purpose open ended ladders.
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Your right Ian, you would expect that after consultation best practice could be agreed upon. It seems that with ladder use ACP is not written down.
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WHEN, WHAT, HOW
Q: When does a person decide to become a Safety Manager?
A: When he realizes he doesn't have the charisma to be an undertaker.
Q: What do safety Managers use for birth control?
A: Their personalities
Q: How can you tell an extroverted safety Manager?
A: When he talks to you, he looks at your safety shoes instead of his own
TWO KINDS
There are two kinds of Safety Guys, those that know the law and those that know the judge.
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“Safety Managers: persons who write a 10,000 word document and call it a brief.”
-- Franz Kafka
Any time a Safety Manager is seen but not heard, it’s a shame to wake him.
WORD PROCESSOR
Have you heard about the Safety Managers’ word processor?
No matter what font you select, everything comes out in fine print.
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WINE CELLAR
What do you get if you put 100 Safety Managers in your basement?
A whine cellar.
PREGNANT
How does a pregnant woman know she is carrying a future Safety Manager?
She has an extreme craving for baloney.
How many Safety Managers can you place on the point of a needle?
Ten, if you make them stand on their heads.
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How many Safety Managers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
One: the Safety Manager holds it while the rest of the world revolves around him.
What do Safety Managers and sperm have in common?
Only one in two million ever does anything worthwhile.
What do you call a Safety Manager gone bad?
A Politician
What do you get when you cross a librarian with a Safety Manager?
All the information you need—but you can’t understand a word of it.
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What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a Safety Manager?
An offer you can't understand.
What is the definition of a Safety Manager?
A mouth with a life-support system.
What's the difference between a Safety Manager and a vampire?
Vampires only suck blood at night.
What’s the difference between a Safety Manager and a boxing referee?
A boxing referee doesn’t get paid extra for a longer fight.
What’s the difference between God and a Safety Manager?
God doesn’t think he’s a Safety Manager.
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Why are Safety Managers like nuclear weapons?
If one side has one, the other side has to get one.
Once launched during a campaign, they can rarely be recalled.
And when they land, they screw up everything forever.
BULLETIN
The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) has determined that the maximum safe load capacity on my rear end is two persons at one time, unless I install handrails or safety straps. As you have arrived sixth in line to ride my rear end today, please take a number and wait your turn.
Thank you!
Police visit
A police safety officer was visiting a primary school in a particularly tough area of Glasgow.
"Why shouldn't you touch the oven door or the kettle ?" he asked the assembled class.
A young girls hand shot into the air.
"Because you might leave fingerprints" she answered.
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Costume Party
A safety officer went to a costume party with a girl on his back. "What are you supposed to be?" the host asked. "I'm a snail," the safety officer replied. The host raised his eyebrows. "How can you be a snail when all you've got is that girl on your back?" "That's not a girl," the safety officer replied. "That's Michelle."
Fire Drill
A voice on the office loudspeaker announced:
"We will be testing the speaker system to make sure it will work properly in case of emergency."
My confidence in this safety precaution faded when the voice added:
"If you are unable to hear this announcement, please contact us."
Road map
Q: How do you drive a Safety Officer completely insane?
A: Tie him to a chair, stand in front of him, and fold up a road map the wrong way.
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Phonetic Alphabets
While working as a health and safety officer, I arrived at an accident scene, and the safety manager arrived just behind me. As I parked the car, I heard a security guard on the intercom using the radio phonetic alphabet to alert the site manager.
"Be aware that the Hotel Alpha Sierra Oscar has arrived," he said.
I approached the security guard, looked him in the eye and said,
"You might be surprised to know that some of the Hotel Alpha Sierra Oscar’s can Sierra Papa Echo Lima Lima."
Bonus
Our company offers a bonus award for employee ideas that improve safety, quality or performance. A co-worker noticed there was a power switch suspended 16 feet over our machinery. He suggested that a chain be attached to the switch, allowing it to be pulled for quick shut-off in an emergency.
The suggestion went through channels and was rejected. One reason given was that "the chain might be pushed up one day, accidentally turning the power switch on."
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COSHH A woman was killed from chlorine gas poisoning when she mixed Harpic and Domestos together in a confined space. She had inadvertently created the same conditions as experienced by the soldiers during a gas attack in the trenches of the First World War
Dentist The cap of a man’s tooth fell out so he phoned the dentist to ask if it could be replaced.
“Yes,” said the dentist, “but it will cost you £75.”
“No way,” said the man and went off to buy a 50p tube of superglue and stuck the cap back carefully. He woke up in hospital. Superglue contains a cyanide chemical.
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Sunshine I lived in South Africa for 26 tears of whichI spent 4 months is hospital in plaster beleive me there is no H & S maybe on paper but not in true life Try sueing some one you would 250 thousand grand to walk into court and lawers may not work for a % Cash only.
Thanks Matt loved the funnys the Mechell was the best.
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Sunshine I lived in South Africa for 26 tears of whichI spent 4 months is hospital in plaster beleive me there is no H & S maybe on paper but not in true life Try sueing some one you would 250 thousand grand to walk into court and lawers may not work for a % Cash only.
Thanks Matt loved the funnys the Mechell was the best.
Fair enough, sorry to offend. I guess there is a difference between legislating and actual implementing. It which is what the UK seems best at. Other EU countries don't seem to tie themselves up in knots simply interpreting like we do.