Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: GlynE on January 29, 2010, 02:17:52 pm
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Just had our first shrinkage problem. Berber carpet on wooden floor, no underlay. One carpet started to shrink after about an hour & another carpet as soon as we started to use pre spray. Both carpets were fixed with grippa rods. Customer is really angry. We have obviously not taken payment & have offered to get re-stretched professionally as soon as carpets have dried out, although with the amount of shrinkage, that could be a problem. Would be grateful for thoughts /advice....
Many thanks
Glyn
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Why is it fitted on gripper but not on underlay ?
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SORRY - typing error. that should read "With Underlay". the carpet was actually quite thin...
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Are you sure it was a berber ? If it was quite thin then it may be a wool natural made by the likes of Crucial Trading or Kerstain Cobb, these have a high risk of shrinkage.
At the moment you can't do anything until it is fully dry, they sometimes relax back, but not by much.
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How much have the carpets shrunk? As Steve has said, once completely dried out they may well relax slightly. Once completely dried out get a good carpet fitter to attempt a re-stretch. Leave it at least 48 - 72 hours before attempting the re-stretch.
If the carpets will not go all the way back you will obviously then need to talk with the customer. You state that she was very angry with you so it sounds like replacement will be the route rather than offering a cash settlement. Depending on your insurance excess will determine if you pay for replacement yourself or go through your insurance company.
Richie.
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Does the customer know where you live??
Mark
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Glyn,
Stick the customer under your patio.
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Try and find a carpet fitter who has a power stretcher. I bought one years ago for stretching flooded carpets. In the right hands you can perform miracles compared to a knee kicker.
Nigel
www.designcare.co.uk
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Glyn,
Are you sure it was a Berber, it sounds very like a Belgian Wilton to me.
To shrink just with prespray is exceptional.
Cheers
Doug
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Lyn - Really sorry to hear about the shrinkage problem - it would be genuinely interesting to know what the carpet type and make was - it might be the infamous belgian wilton - does the custy know who supplied it - when you get a moment please share this info on the forum - the facts as you report them sound really strange - Ive been at this game for quite a few years now and use very hot tm (solution) systems on all sorts of carpets and we have never had a problem like that (touch wood and find the rabbit's foot!) - yes ripples will appear especially for instance with upstairs rooms in a well heated house etc but they always go back down - and we have certainly walked away from quotes where the fixing and seams are suspect - but usually you can tell by looking and feeling a carpet if its going to be problematic
its often the customers worst nightmare and a faq's you get asked by the older generation - the carpet shrinking with pre-spray only is really odd - not being funny or anything but are you sure its not string (i.e. sisal)! As Steve says Crucial Trading supply/make/import some pretty weird (and wonderful) stuff - the thin part got me thinking crucial trading and they do make some sisal carpet which can be fitted and looks like wool
what method/system do you use - hot tm, porty? you also say your first shrinkage problem - make sure its your last - I did a flood pump out of a large carpetted bathroom recently and we extracted then cleaned and dried it and replaced the underlay and it went back no problems and that was literally underwater when we got there! Good luck with your negotiations - its something we all worry about because it can bite you on the bum just when you least expect!
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f it is seagrass or sisal it will be an expensive mistake, you need to be able to identify what you are working with. It is that simple. If you are insured for it then you will pay for it when you renew your insurance. Even with 20 years experience I still do an inspection and look for bad fitting etc if there is a risk of shrinkage I always warn the customer if they have been forewarned it is not as frightening for them and the reassurance that you know what you are doing also helps.
I would not like to be doing what I am doing without the knowledge and experience I have now. You cannot afford to be in business without it.
There are too many people looking for ways to claim something against somebody, it is only a matter of time before you meet one.
Peter
www.carpetleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetleanercardiff.com)
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So other than jute backing and sisal carpets, are there other shrinkers ?
If it turns out to be belgian wilton how much pre-spray did you put down ?? :o I cleaned a B/W yesterday with caution, no problem.
Paul
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I Think I know what this......Yes it is flat and looks like a berber but on closer inspection I'm sure you'll see some face yarns ie horizontal fine string like threads woven in and out. This will shrink in cold water so can only be done with host or similar. A liberable pre-spray could also cause shrinkage.
As mentioned this is a bitch to stretch so I would wait at least a week to settle and again as mentioned get a fitter who has a power strecther who is fully experienced.
I would'nt mention the insurance route at this stage.
It might be worth asking for fitting help on here.
Good Luck
Paul
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I Think I know what this......Yes it is flat and looks like a berber but on closer inspection I'm sure you'll see some face yarns ie horizontal fine string like threads woven in and out. This will shrink in cold water so can only be done with host or similar. A liberable pre-spray could also cause shrinkage.
As mentioned this is a bitch to stretch so I would wait at least a week to settle and again as mentioned get a fitter who has a power strecther who is fully experienced.
I would'nt mention the insurance route at this stage.
It might be worth asking for fitting help on here.
I am intrigued what is this carpet any pics so i can avoid, did a carpet today i was sure it was a polyprop was going to do with ultrapac renovate prespray and rinse with crystal green which i had all prepared , at the last minute i did a float test, it sank i still went ahead as i was sure it was a synthetic turned out a good result but i had my fingers crossed i like to be certain, about what im doing so this story scares the crap out of me and i suspect a lot of others :o
Good Luck
Paul
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Thank you for all your very kind & very helpful replies.
The carpets shrank within 5 minutes of light prespray being applied, although the client assured us that it had been cleaned before with HWE method, with no problems. They had informed us that their receipt for the carpet when they purchased it stated it was "Berber".
Have attached photos...
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Yep - it's a Crucial Trading carpet !
By the way Glyn, the term "berber" is not a type of carpet. It simply suggests, or certainly did 20 odd years ago, that it is a looped carpet usually made of wool and is named after a North African tribe. This became somewhat blurred over the years and started to include anything that was looped or ribbed as long as it was natural wool - then along came synthetic berbers and everyone became confused. In fact the trade has started to drop the term berber in favour of wool naturals.
Unfortunately, sometimes only experience will ring alarm bells when you see a carpet like this - so if someone tells you they have a berber carpet, don't take their word for it !
Steve
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Thank you Steve - Am I right in thinking that it is probably not going to be possible to re-stretch it & replacement is only option
Glynis
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As a few of us have mentioned above, it will relax a little, but you won't get much of a stretch on this type of carpet.
Has it only shrink in the doorway ?
If so, you may be able to overcome the problem by uplifting the double naplock bar that is currently fitted and replace it with a wide cover strip.
Steve
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Thanks again Steve
In the doorway & about 6" down one wall.....
Thanks everyone for your kind help - very much appreciated
Glyn x
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CRUCIAL TRADING ARE JUST ONE OF THE IMPORTERS DISTRIBUTORS OF THIS TYPE OF PRODUCT. IF THE CARPET HAS SHRUNK ALONG THE LENTH OF THE CARPET IT WILL HAVE MORE GIVE AND IS MORE LIKELY TO GO BACK OF IT OWN ACCORD OR RESTRETCH. A BETTER ALTERNATIVE TO THE 1 1/2 " COVER STRIP WOULD BE A CLIP TOP TRIM WHICH IS FAR EASIER TO FIT AND MORE ATTRACTIVE. YOU NEED TO CONTACT A FLOORING DISTRIBUTOR TO SEE THE RANGE AVAILABLE (NOT A CARPET SHOP). YOU SHOULD BE OK IF THE GRIPPET HAS RETAINED THE CARPET EITHER SIDE OF THE DOOR.
PETER
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A local local carpet cleaner shrunk this carpet last year at a customer who I quoted, they got a fitter in to try and stretch it, but they couldn't do it.
if it is 6 inches then I would not wait and immediately arrange for it to be replaced, you should arrange it and try and negotiate a trade discount with the shop. go into the shop in your smartest work clothes make a big deal how customer service is your number 1 priority so need this customer sorting out.....
.....then when you leave give him a handful of business card :D :D
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You say 6" along the wall and not from it - i dont think this situation is as bad as you feel it is. I had a similar one when i first started and got my mate in who is a fitter he told me and the customer that the carpet was fitted "net" ie cut to size of room without been folded over and tucked, what he termed the "movement" he NEVER once called it shrinkage. He re stretched the carpet onto the grippers and put a wider door bar in as steve advised - customer very happy with outcome.
Hope all goes well
Best wishes
Stu
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I was led to believe that wool carpets were difficult to shrink in that they absorb a lot of moisture unlike the Belgian Polyprop where it goes to the base very quick and shrinks
im confused ???
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James you are talking about tufted carpets with a pile. The wool absorbs a lot of the moisture, preventing it running down into the backing. On Polyprop (plastic) carpets such as Belgian Wiltons the water goes straight down into the backing if you are not careful, which can cause shrinkage.
The carpet in question here is a flatweave. These are a completetly different kettle of fish as there is no pile as such to form a barrier. When you wet extract them the whole carpet becomes wet. If there are constituents in that carpet which are prone to shrinkage then you can have a problem. Unfortunately it isn't always possible to tell which ones are problematic.
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The client is now insisting on having the carpets replaced (She says that the 3 we cleaned have all shrunk) as they have the highest tourism accolade (They are a guest house) - because of the sizes & type of carpet , this will unfortunately cost around £2500!!! yikes - & they need to be ready for half term hols. She is getting in a carpet fitter herself, but we have also requested to send someone in ourselves to give a second opinion.....
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how old are the carpets? remember, why should you pay for new carpets if the are not new, you should pay the value of the carpets not the replacement cost. sounds harsh but if you damaged their car would you buy them a new car even if the car was 10yrs old?
give it too your insurers to sort out, let them offer 30% of the replacement cost .
don't fork out £2500 yourself
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£2500, :o
Get a builder to give you a quote to move the wall 6"..............simplez ;D ;D
Mark
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Hi Glyn
You need to take a advice from a more experienced CC near you.
As Miker says even if you have shrunk them you are only liable for their value , not original cost.
They may well stretch back, I would do nothing for a few more days , then get a fitter to inspect.
Cheers
Doug
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Glyn,
How long is the room. The longer the room the more chance there is of it being stretched back. I had asimilar experience on an almost identical carpet a couple of years ago, and Ive been 30 years in this business. The room in my case was only around 15 feet long but it stretched back easily enough after a couple of days, however I also do carpet fitting. Its just a matter of progressive stretching. i.e. Starting with the knee kicker in the middle of the room and gently working towards the bar.
Best of luck.
Dave.
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Don't be too quick to fork out a lot of money,a pro carpet fitter will be able to advise if it is possible to rectify it.
What did the original fitter use to cut it,a kitchen knife,or maybe she got the local butcher to fit it.
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The fact she said they were cleaned before tells me she's trying to set you up for replacement. No way can you clean a flatweave with HWE. So stick to your guns and don't let her take control. By law she has to let you rectify the problem first.
when this is over put it down to experience and try not to lose any sleep.
Regards Paul
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Thank you everyone, you have been so helpful.
With regards to room size. they measure about 12 x 12 & are fitted flush to the wall, not turned underneath. They appear to be relatively new carpets, although she did say she had to replace one last year & couldn't match it completely to all the others. We have arranged for a professional carpet fitter to go out, but unfortunately they can't get there until Friday & she is pressing us to get it sorted because of losing money if she has to turn guests away for the half term hols. Will probably speak to insurers on Monday as well to see what they say...
I do like the idea of moving the wall 6" though Mark - anybody got a sledgehammer?
Seriously though, you have all been great...Thank you sooooo much. It's good to know that there is so much support & help out there.
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She doesn't have to turn guests away because of this! She's trying it on to put pressure on you.
Of course she wants a quick resolution to the problem but you have to be firm. If you're unsure I'd recommend you have a word with your solicitor. Even if they charge you for a consultation it'll be money well spent as you'll then be armed with all the legal necessities, should this problem arise again in the future. think of it as an investment.
As mentioned above, if there is a complain about the provision of goods or services, the customer is obliged to allow you reasonable opportunity to rectify the fault. If she ploughs ahead and replaces the carpets at a cost of thousands, she could end up paying for it herself. Remind her of that if she gets shirty with you ;)
Good luck :)
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Its not unfortunate about your fitter[not getting there till friday]
its in your favour[i would leave the carpet alone for 7-10 days by that time it will be fully relaxed ]
dont let her bully you.
as already said use a wider nap lock for the door way.
if one of the rooms is larger than the other,that carpet could be cut and placed in the smaller room.
colin
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Jims right, they do have to give you the opportunity to rectify the problem, and your not liable for the full replacement amount. As mentioned before she said they had been HWE before ? obviously not true, ask her by whom and when.
For the rest of us can you guys clarify - Are we saying this carpet is wool ???? or Sisal ???? or other ???? ???
Paul
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Well Its not sisal and its not berber, Its like a low profile sisal with woven wool tufts, have a look at the flatweave classics on this page.
http://www.crucial-trading.com/en/Choose_A_Floorcovering.aspx
Have a look at affected carpet you will see underlying horizontal yarns.
So clean as sisal with Dry granules host/enviro-dry, Or walk
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I ant saying nothing, as I’m not a carpet expert, know what I can, know what I cant! carpet look like rope ;)
Len
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A smart solicitor should ask to see the receipt from the previous clean....it was HWE and it didn't shrink that time, you pre-spray this time and it shrunk ::)
As for the cost, if a carpet has a life span of 12 years then you should only be liable for the number of years left...of it's life span
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As already stated....DONT LET HER BULLY YOU. You have the right to attempt re-stretch of the carpets. She can still open as usual even with the carpets having shrinkage. It may be a good idea to use tape to tape down & make safe the carpet at the door bar. This will cover yourself & the owner of trip hazzard. Its good that the fitter cant get there straight away. Also again as stated you will NOT have to pay FULL replacement cost. Ask the owner where & when she bought the carpets & if possible ask to see the reciept. The fact that the property is used for business purposes means she WILL HAVE somewhere either reciepts or other means of eveidence as to when , where & how much the carpets cost her. She says it was about £2500, i bet that wasa for the carpets, underlay, gipper, door bars & fitting. This all adds up to £2500 so you will probably find that the actual carpets where not anywhere near the £2500 that she has mentioned. If this is the case then its not as bad as it sounds if replacement is required as you wont need to replace the gripper , underlay or doorbars. Then taking into account the % to be deducted due to age & wear of the carpets.
REMEMBER, DONT LET HER RUSH OR BULLY YOU. IF THE CARPET DOES REQUIRE REPLACEMENT CUT A PIECE OFF AND TAKE IT TO A CARPET SHOP & GET A QUOTE. IF ANY OF THE ROOMS THAT SHRUNK ARE SMALLER THAN 1 OF THE OTHERS THEN USE A SHRUNK CARPET & REFIT IT INTO THE SMALLER ROOM.
Richie.
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Thank you again everyone...We have just found out that the fitter who is due to go in is from the company who originally supplied & fitted carpets (Which were around £53 per sqm). We now have to reschedule him as she will be away then.... The worst part is that she is a member of the hierarchy on the Chamber of Commerce. We obviously want to be seen to be reconciling this in a proper & professional way & we want to retain our reputation, but we also need to ensure that we do not compromise ourselves at the same time .. It is a bit of a balancing act
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James you are talking about tufted carpets with a pile. The wool absorbs a lot of the moisture, preventing it running down into the backing. On Polyprop (plastic) carpets such as Belgian Wiltons the water goes straight down into the backing if you are not careful, which can cause shrinkage.
The carpet in question here is a flatweave. These are a completetly different kettle of fish as there is no pile as such to form a barrier. When you wet extract them the whole carpet becomes wet. If there are constituents in that carpet which are prone to shrinkage then you can have a problem. Unfortunately it isn't always possible to tell which ones are problematic.
Thanks John, im wondering how i have missed this particular issue when i think shrinkage its Polyprops i do not remember flatweaves being mentioned, looking at the pictures though it does look very flat indeed,do we know what it is made of, im off to the carpet shop to have alook at some, ps it was recommended using Host or Envirodri but if it shrunk from prespay alone. then dont forget the sponges are wet as well i use envirodri and the carpet is definately damp after
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James
You can clean these carpets with Host/Envirodri/Duo sponges, but the results will be limited and the customers expectations should not be raised.
Steve
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as mentioned you need to wait to carpet to dry, chances are if the carpet was 12 foot long, shrunk an inch when wet it will relax back to 12 foot long and just needs a fitter to remind it.
Client can not replace carpets until you have been given the chance to correct the problem, no matter who she is, as above it was 12 foot long as long and it ends back at 12 foot long what can she complain about...ok hassle you caused, so maybe as goodwill you don't charge for the cleaning.
I wet cleaned this carpet myself and it started to shrink halfway through the cleaning, not enough to pull off the grippers but enough to switch to host machine. You can not wet clean these carpets too risky.
On a postive side, look at all the experience you have given other froum members with you mistake and photos. Keep us posted, fingers crossed your fitter gets it back in place
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Agree with Karl, although it doesn't sort out your situation or won't make you feel any better these sort of posts can be invaluable to other cleaners to make sure they know what they are cleaning and avoid the same mistake.
Personally I do feel for you as I've had a couple of problem customers recently albeit not through anything I've done wrong and it hangs over you until dealt with fully.
She is obviously out to get the maximum from you/insurance, but deal with it in a professional manner and know your rights, as others have said, she has to let you try and sort out the problem first.
It will good experience points when it is dealt with in both cleaning & customer service terms.
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From that website, it looks like this one to me, same as what I came across. No wonder they tend to shrink.
http://www.crucial-trading.com/en/Floorcovering_Details.aspx?rid=243
Dave.
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Where`s the value in this carpet? Now it`s £68 per square metre.
In my experience it is the better qualities that give us the most
Problems,but there are limits !
Lewis Doubtfire
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£68 sq/m and it literally cannot be cleaned properly.
Just ordered 5 sample pieces off there for playing around with
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Dont panic.
A good carpet fitter will stretch that back,or fit a wider bar.Its not exactly a huge amount of shrinkage.If for some reason they cant just put it in the hands of your insurance company,dont say another word to your clients, even if they keep phoning you,and it will sort itself out.Then just forget about it and carry on doing the good job you do.Thats why you pay insurance,so they can sort it out for you.Im talking from experience.
Steve.
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Just picked up on this item, but what a truly brilliant article, people moan on here sometimes about who said what to who but this shows the depth of experience there is out there to anyone who gets into a mess doing what we do.
Luckily over the years I've been doing this, all the shrinkers were down to flooded carpets and not me.
But what we did in a situation like this was to make sure the carpet was dry, double gripper the room, (you get more surface grip)and then fit the doorway first with a wide bar if it needs it, and latex the back of the carpet and the gripper/bar in the doorway, let it go off, so it is dry and fit it then, nothing will move 2 dry latexed surfaces and then fit the rest of the room, with a power stretcher if you can,not a knee kicker.
This was shown to me by an old experienced fitter and it allways worked, the reason to do the door first is because 'she' will allways see that area when they walk through and not the rest of the room with the furniture in.
Why a power stretcher? They stretch all the carpet along the lenghth , but a knee kicker only stretches the 2 or 3 feet behind it. Its a 2 man job you will probably only find 1 from a commercial type fitter as they use them in pubs, hotels etc etc.
Good luck with it and again what a brilliant item.
Murky
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I have found on the Crucial site a local stockist of these carpets they all seem to be made of materials that will shrink and are very expensive, im off to have a look at them for future reference, went to look at end of tenancy today and the pattern was very similar to the one that shrunk oh sh.. i thought :o
but it was fine, it must be distressing for anyone who encounters this sort of thing but the flip side is the forum provides a system to help him and us to hopefuly avoid in the future i hope it is resolved amicably.
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Just to add about Host/Envirodry cleaning. I wouldn'tt risk cleaning this type of carpet with any brush system, chances are it would end up looking somewhat fuzzy.
Dave.
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Think this is a poorly fitted carpet..............I've HWE'd one for the past 5 years with no problem.
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Dave Lee.
Host brushes come in different grades, black for hard wearing carpets, white for not so hard, and gold for soft carpets, like the one in this article or chinese rugs, so yes you can host clean with the right brushes.
Robert.
No way, this carpet will shrink if fitted as a common carpet. Maybe if double gripped, or glued to underlay you may get away with hwe, but I would not hwe as standard
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Glynn
while she is away, try to put a carpet drier under the carpet, with the air pressure , making the carpet "balloon", this will stretch the carpet on its own and then should go back down with very little stretching needed.
Just a thought
Regards
Daryl
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I totally agree with Murky's comments about the experience that everyone is sharing & the advice & support is tremendous. Unfortunately 2 carpet fitters (inc one who fitted the carpet)went out yesterday & they have both agreed that the carpets need replacing. They are also unable to use 1 carpet from another room in a smaller one because the sizes of the rooms are pretty much all the same size within a few mm. So it is a call to the insurance company this morning for the necessary forms. As you say, put it down to experience & learn from it. Thank you everyone. Have a good day. Glynis xx
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Hi glyn hope you sort it soon for yourself and your clients.
Think its a post that is a warning to us all and not to get too complacent down the line.
cheers and good luck :)
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Were these fitters sent by you or her? Was you around at the time? Did they try to rectify it? Did they use a power stretcher?
I'm wondering if they were influenced by her? ???
please don't give in so easy, you only have to put them back to their original condition.
Once you go down the insurance route even if they get it re-streched you will still have to pay £250excess.
Only trying to help
Paul
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Paul,
thats what i was thinking
Regards
Daryl
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£250 excess? Most, like mine, the excess is £500.
Dave.
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There were 2 fitters, one requested by client & one by ourselves - although we found out after booking that the latter fitter actually supplied & fitted carpets. They have just reported back their findings. Our excess is only £100, but only pays up to a max of £2000 on each claim. What concerns me more is she will insist that we pay balance over & above £2k & even more that she will try & claim for lost revenue because of having to turn guests away until matter is settled as she needs to safeguard her reputation for highest possible service. That could cost us a fortune.....
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Let her claim for lost revenue................. and then let her prove it ::)
Steve
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GlynE:
Looking at the pics the shrinkage dosen't seem that bad.
I'm very suprised that even an average fitter couldn't rectify the problem relatively easily.
This lady sounds like she's after new carpets and will do almost anything to get them.
Were you present when your fitter was there? If not I would arrange for another fitters 2nd opinion and make sure you're present.
Call the lady and inform her that you're getting another fitter "Just for final confirmation". Then the both of you turn up together.
Tbh I smell a rat and would't be suprised if she has "softened up" your first fitter to tell a few wee white ones (If you get my drift). Plus if he had fitted the carpets previously he probably knows her already.
Again the shrinkage dosen't appear to be that bad which is the reason why I'm extremely skeptical. Bout 6 years ago i shrunk a BW in a restaurant while trying to remove blacktop. Believe me it was alot worse than that but with a good powerstretcher got it back all the way the next day.
Don't give in to her demands so easily becasue I get the impression she's not a very nice person.
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Did either of these carpet fitters try to stretch the carpet using a power stretcher? A few of us have pointed you in this direction earlier in the thread. ??? I am not saying that it would definitely work , however, it is the most likely solution. A knee kicker just doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to problems like this.
Nigel
www.designcare.co.uk
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I agree with Nigel.
Having fitted this type of carpet before, you wont get that amount of stretch out of it just by using a knee kicker. A power stretcher is a must.
Steve
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Unfortunately they have both reported that they will not stretch, although we weren't there at the time when they looked at them. It appears they have shrunk some more since when the photos were taken. Neither fitter tried to stretch them, just supplied report verbally & by email. One carpet was a flat weave & the other "Manx Portobello" & they state that these have shrunk "in width" making a re-stretch "impossible". I suppose we are reliant on what insurance assesor comes up with. We have also been told that if it is found to be "operator error" / "workmanship error" then the insurance may not pay out - oh dear......
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As Steve/Nigel have said you really need a power stretcher on it, as a rule of thumb you can usually get 9" of stretch on 27' of carpet without doing any damage to the carpet.
If anyone has been doing this job for as long as i have, they will remember that in the late 80's, early 90's, carpet fitters power stretched carpets as a matter of course, as the trend was to have "flat"carpets.
Regards
Daryl
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GlynE.
Not sure where you're from but maybe there is someone near enough to come over and try it with a power stretcher. Right now you're looking at a claim so if a stretcher fails at least you have tried everything. As has been mentioned you will not have to pay for new carpets only their value at the time.
I know this feel like a kick in a guts and it's easy to take this personally, sadly it's human nature when a vulture senses prey they strike and it often seems easier to just take it on the chin, but be firm get a fitter with a stretcher you have nothing to lose by exploring every avenue. The assessor will not take any of her nonsense about loss of earnings either she's going for the full monty with a poser pouch your plan is for her to keep her mac on.
There has been some fine advice on this thread, thanks to everyone who has taken part.
Good luck & best wishes
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Simon
How are you getting on with the airflex.
I've been looking into it on the website, but I am concerned that there appears to be no heater.
Steve
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Steve, you can get a clip on heater as an option (similar to the heat and run from prochem)
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Thanks Tony, think I need to give Matt a call.
Steve
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Hi
srry if i sound ignorant here, But tried to call Crucial Tradings press department today [02.02.10] and was buffeted around until they decided to take my number and call me back [[ which they haven't]]
In the mean time im sure everyone is aware that there are two types of sisal, natural and synthetic with the natural being the issue here regarding shrinkage,
Forgive me once again if im going over something thats been picked up already.
I suppose the only way to tell the difference is to be able to identify which is natural sisal and which is synthetic.
Hopefully they will ring tomorrow of which i will pass the conversation on through the forum
Regards Marc
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Simon
How are you getting on with the airflex.
I've been looking into it on the website, but I am concerned that there appears to be no heater.
Steve
Steve going well no complaints and performs really well. Go over and give one a try if you can. Before I ordered one I spent some time over there trying it out, give Matt a ring.
Simon
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shame to hear about this one, ive never cleaned one of these carpets, but ive fitted a few and you dont seem to get much stretch out of the width much like a wilton.so although i would advise getting someone in with a power stretcher to have a go, its not looking good if its shrunk by 6" in the width, with this particular type of carpet.i hope you sort something more agreeable out with the custy...gd luck
bazx
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You should try and get written cleaning instructions from the manufacturer/supplier. If it states HWE then you might have grounds to fight this.
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Steve whats up with the TM ??
Cheers Tony
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Thank you sooooooo much everyone for all your advice. You have been amazing. We will take on board all the advice that has been offered & will let you know the outcome...Thank you
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Have had a call from crucial tradings press office regarding the issuse over sisal.............. im awaiting a call from crucial tradings technical adviser and will pass any relievant information over.
Regards Marc
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You should try and get written cleaning instructions from the manufacturer/supplier. If it states HWE then you might have grounds to fight this.
I doubt it,
It may well be wet cleanable but they will argue and win that it was not cleaned professionally,
It their view it would be up to the carpet cleaner to have the necessary expertise to be able to know how much moisture can be applied.
Your carpet fitters were right, this carpet can not, and should not, be power stretched back, there is not enough body in the carpet and it will almost certainly open up or at least pull off the griper again leaving loose yarn. as already shown, if the carpet is attempted to pull back on to this it will just pull the pile away from the body of the carpet. You don't want this as exposed gripper is a hazard, they will blame you if some has their feet ripped open, it was probably another reason why the fitters turned it down.
We have cleaned loads of this carpet and its rubbish, its a low moisture clean only using pads and as such it just glides across the top surface, the end product is not great and we always qualify this with the client.
Its not £65 -£70 a sq mt job whether its from CT or not, £15-20 at best.
Get your insurance involved, put it down to experience and move on, if not you will be for ever going back and forth to this customer and neither of you wants that ;)
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It certainly looks as though there may be a problem with insurance paying out (because of suitability of carpet for HWE) & as carpet is less than 2 yrs old & cost around £68 per sq metre, it looks as though we may have a hefty bill to try & somehow pay ourselves. As you say you have to put it down to experience & learn from it...
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It certainly looks as though there may be a problem with insurance paying out (because of suitability of carpet for HWE) & as carpet is less than 2 yrs old & cost around £68 per sq metre, it looks as though we may have a hefty bill to try & somehow pay ourselves. As you say you have to put it down to experience & learn from it...
if you dont mind me asking what sort of insurance do you have. is it just basic pub liability or do you have the treatment risk also
also a questions for those more in the know ( than i am)would treatment risk cover this sort of situation.
on another note hope it all works out for the best for you
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I received my sample today of the said carpet.... I would have probably thought it was sisal to be honest ???
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Thank you Richard. Insurance is public liability & tools/equipment (AKA Tradesman insurance policy). we were never offered "treatment risks"
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One carpet started to shrink after about an hour & another carpet as soon as we started to use pre spray.
I've been following this thread through but had to go back to page 1 to clarify what i thought started all this.
How wet did you make these carpets? particulary the one you only pre sprayed and it shrunk.
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sea grass etc suspicious then why risk wet cleaning?
Mark
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The presprayed one was only a very light prespray - but the owner said she had them cleaned before with no problems. We have learnt our lesson the hard way & won't be going anywheere near these type of carpets again (Wjat ever the custy says), not even with the envirodri
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Hi there
Spoke to a Mike Turner from Crucial Trading,while the press office are insistent there are guides on how to fit and treat these carpets i for one couldnt find it,and on further probing was told there isnt any by mike.
The carpets in question if fitted correctly should have been double fitted [ underlay fixed to floor then backing fixed to the underlay ] and a over hang [[ folded under ]] around the edges for acclimatising then a second refit a few weeks later, so if this carpet had been cleaned b4 it is possible that shrinkage had occured and the previous contractor had just pulled the over hang out and refitted jobs a good en.
You come along and unlucky 4 u there is no overhang to pull out.
Mr previous walks away a happy chappy and ur left carrying the baby only a possibility mind.
I am assured that Crucial Tradings products will withstand light pre spray and bonneting without shrinkage in fact they have there own spotting products.
A comment made was that once the sisal has shrunk it wouldnt shrink again [[ horse bolts n closes gate ]].
because they are only a distribution centre any feedback from them is going to be minimal.
GlynE i suppose there is light at the end of the tunnel if you can push the fact that the carpet wasnt fitted to underlay, hence u could argue the point it was incorrectly fitted in first instance,
Also as you are the unfortunate one that it shrunk on its questionable whether the previous contractor actually HWE.
Dunno where you go from here other than to ask your insurance about treatment risk for the future [[ they wont offer it you , you do have to ask and maybe shop around ]]
I would argue the issue regarding how the carpet was fitted but come to some agreement over the cost of replacement and put it down to experience.
the carpet to trade is far less than £68 per m2 find that out b4 engaging in talks with your client
I am visiting CT monday,if for no other reason but to familiarize myself with this product.
Anything you guys and gals wish to know regarding the product and would like bringing up feel free to leave a post or email
Regards Marc
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Been following this one and I do feel for you. Was in a problem with a client a couple years ago and the support from the guys on here was tremendous, as now.
Re treatment risk.
I for one, thought insurance for carpet cleaning, or any other sort of cleaning I suppose, would include insurance for the piece you working on. It doesnt.
I found this out after I went on the NCCA course and then wanted to join the NCCA. You have to show proof you have treatment risk insurance. I enquired with my broker and found I did not have treatment risk. Shock!
My then insurance company did not offer treatment risk either, so I changed insurers and joined the NCCA (who says there is no benefit of joining the NCCA - benefitted me then).
I have just changed insurers again, and one of the first criteria I set for them was that it MUST include treatment risk and I need it in print. No problem.
As to cost.
By the fact I had to change insurers to get to join NCCA, my premium dropped with the new insurer. And this year changing again has seen a further drop in cost. Worth shopping around but make sure you looking at like for like.
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It certainly looks as though there may be a problem with insurance paying out (because of suitability of carpet for HWE) & as carpet is less than 2 yrs old & cost around £68 per sq metre, it looks as though we may have a hefty bill to try & somehow pay ourselves. As you say you have to put it down to experience & learn from it...
[/quote
Its NOT £68.00 sq mt
Get your own estimates done asap.
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OK, do or die......Power stretch! Power stretch! Power stretch! ::) what have you got to lose? ServiceMaster should have one.
I use a broker Mc Gregor Lloyd Ltd Liability/treatment Risks/Tools & Equipment
Ins Co is NIG 0121 706 0616
Remind me not to stay at that Guest house!
Paul
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I wouldn't bother it wont work. the client will be p**sed off and it will cost you more in money,time and worry, how you respond to this is how you will be judged, especially if the client is well connected.
The carpet looks like Wool Flax , you may have an argument that fitters did not understand the procedure to fit it but then again their argument will be that it was ok until you came along, so it will be a tough one, you will lose.
See first if you are insured, seems you may not be if above is correct, then get estimates done for replacement.
She knows she is in a win win situation if you don't pay her contents insurance will and then they will go after you for re-imbursement.
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I suppose it's a CC's worst nightmare :(
Last year I removed and dried some wool Berber carpet (jute back) from an un-insured landlords flat. When I returned to re-fit the carpet with a carpet fitter he said it had shrunk and he could not re-fit. I would like to point out that this carpet was badly fitted to start with. I then rolled up the carpets, when putting them in the lift got help from a guy. Turns out he was a carpet fitter, and after chatting to him about it, he agreed to re-fit it using a power stretcher. The end result was a: perfectly fitted carpet, happy tenant, happy carpet fitter, happy carpet cleaner, happy landlord and a happy letting agent. ;D
I know it's not the same type of carpet but , it's must be worth a try.... :-\
Good luck Graeme :)
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Thank you everyone. We are doing our upmost to try & get things resolved satisfactorily & without us being burdened with a heavy bill. It is good to know that there is so much help, advice & support out there...Many thanks Glyn
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It's GOT to be worth a try with a POWER STRECHER you have nothing to loose
Cheers Tony
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About a year ago I came across a carpet like this in my mother inlaws dining room lots of spots stains etc and she was replacing it the next week and before she did i had ago at cleaning it shrunk where it was badly fitted by the the doors. only did it as an experiment it did relax back over a few days but as many have said its not very easy to stretch. it only shrunk by around 3 cm though.
Nightmare and really hope you get a good resolve i would start digging your heels in a bit though and try to sort out replacing but only current value according to pre existing condition if your insurance wont cover you also would look into getting some better cover.
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Have received a number of catalogues (& price list) today from Crucial trading - absolutely excellent. Full page photos of each carpet.
I totally agree about value according to "pre-existing condition". It appears they are about 4 yrs old.
We are going to sell one of our carpet machines & wondered what (just approximately) you thought we might be able to ask for it. It is a Ninja & was only completely serviced & over-hauled by Ashby's last year at a cost of over £1200 & we have only used it once since then as we purchased a Scorpion & CFR Eco, so it is in very good condition. Would be grateful for any thoughts. thank you everyone
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Dont go by CT price list though, its way over the top, your will be paying Kensington prices, at risk of repeating my self get other quotes if its a wool flax it will be around £20- 25 retail- £15.00 £22.00 trade.
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OK, do or die......Power stretch! Power stretch! Power stretch! ::) what have you got to lose? ServiceMaster should have one.
I use a broker Mc Gregor Lloyd Ltd Liability/treatment Risks/Tools & Equipment
Ins Co is NIG 0121 706 0616
Remind me not to stay at that Guest house!
Paul
Me too im with Mc Gregor Llyoyd found them via the NCCA the NCCA insist that you have treatment risk as a requirement of membership
i did not really understand the significance of that until this thread started :o
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Here is what I would do
1, Write to the customer and tell them you will be in touch within 7 days when you have taken advice.
2, Find a fitter with a can do attitude and powerstretcher, get him to stretch it back, while not admitting any liability, just say it is out of goodwill.
3, Ask the manufacturer for cleaning recommendations,and fitting procedures.
then..
a, If they say HWE ,or the carpet is fitted differently to manufacturers guidelines, write to customer, saying that you followed manufacturer guidelines, thankyou goodbye. or..
b,If they say do not HWE , get 2 quotes, then offer customer the lowest amount, LESS 40% (4years usage they have had out of 10 years life expectancy) LESS your cleaning cost LESS £500 deposit payable when you can collect the old shrunken carpet.
If the customer disputes or will not allow this , which is reasonable and following YOUR procedures. Then let them take you to small claims ,, which will take them months, and cost you little more.
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I've just measured my carpet sample... Measures 84mm X 84mm then I wet it and it's now 80mm X 80mm..... :o
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Thank you Jason - will definitely take on board all you have said & it may come in very useful, if insurance decline. Thank you agin everyone
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I've just measured my carpet sample... Measures 84mm X 84mm then I wet it and it's now 80mm X 80mm..... :o
You got there first ;D
Mine arrived today and i was going to do the same experiment. I presume the latex backing didn't shrink though?
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I've just measured my carpet sample... Measures 84mm X 84mm then I wet it and it's now 80mm X 80mm..... :o
You got there first ;D
Mine arrived today and i was going to do the same experiment. I presume the latex backing didn't shrink though?
The backing of mine is Jute..... I've ordered another 5 to use as tea coasters ;D ;D ;D
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I just pre sprayed the jute one with latex backing (using a spray bottle to mimic pre spray) and the corners lifted up......just light pre spray :(
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Glyn,
In which part of the country are you based? One thing for sure along with the dreaded BW this particular type of carpet is now on my, 'Owners Risk Only' list.
Dave.
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Hi Dave I think alot of us have it at the TOP of our list now :o :o Never come across it myself but boy will I know it if I do now GOT SOME SAMPLES bet they are wondering why they are sending so many out ;D ;D
Regards Tony
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I have also had a very close shave with this stuff a couple of years ago. I also HWE it. I very cautiously pre sprayed a small area looking for signs of contraction. I explained my concerns to the custy and she said it's been done before and encouraged me to go for it. I did and all seemed fine when I left.
The following spring I was called back to clean another room and noticed that the one I did last time was fitted badly around the door. She then told me it had been like that since my last visit. Fortunately for me she blamed herself for it as she had persuaded me that it was good to go and that it had been cleaned before. Damned if I was about to argue with that. I did however clean the room free of charge as a gesture. Telling her to use the £75 to get a fitter in.
I understand that if I was to try claim on my treatment risk insurance for this, they wouldn't pay if I had been negligent. I believe I was negligent and the insurance would have quite rightly told me that I should know how to clean carpets. Harsh but I think you will find it's the truth.
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I just pre sprayed the jute one with latex backing (using a spray bottle to mimic pre spray) and the corners lifted up......just light pre spray :(
quick update. All 5 of my samples have latex backing and there's been no noticable shrinkage over the last few hours. The edges turned up but I guess that wouldn't have happened if they wre pinned down.
I've now soaked them to see if anything happens.
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Would be a very good idea to bring along a sample of this Crucial trading carpet that shrank to the CCDO so we can see them, i would not mind having a look again at some dodgy Wiltons as well, i was told that just look for the reverse pattern on the underside but theres more than the pattered type out there, and having it described for me is not sufficient im a bit thick. ::)
i want to see one so i know what to look for.
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I understand that if I was to try claim on my treatment risk insurance for this, they wouldn't pay if I had been negligent. I believe I was negligent and the insurance would have quite rightly told me that I should know how to clean carpets. Harsh but I think you will find it's the truth.
I disagree with that Nevil. How can you ascertain beforehand, in a NON destructive manner, whether a carpet is going to shrink? A good set of terms & conditions should read something like this:
2. The Supplier agrees to perform the work specified overleaf/attached in a workmanlike manner using reasonable care to attain the best possible results. However, all liability shall be excluded in respect of loss or damage arising from:
• Faulty manufacture or inherent defect in any material(s) which is the subject of this contract.
• Misuse, damage or cleaning by the customer of any material(s) which is the subject of this contract prior to work being undertaken.
• Poor colour fastness or dimensional instability of any material which is apparent upon testing by the supplier prior to work being undertaken.
• Manufacturers’ or other dye or markings on any material which is not apparent upon testing by the supplier prior to work being undertaken.
• Failure to remove all stains and soiling.
I certainly wouldn't fork out for one of these carpets if it sprang off the grippers at me. The manufacturer is just as liable, because arguably they've produced a floor covering that's not fit for purpose as per the sale of goods act.
What if you bought a car that the paint flaked off the first time you washed it? You wouldn't blame the car wash would you? My opinion is that the manufacturers should be pressurised into eradicating these ludicrous carpets.
If only we had some sort of national organisation to get things done like that.....
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A trip to a carpet shop really is well worth the effort - they take on a whole new meaning when you are there to learn and not buy and I have found that the sales people are more than happy to chat - if you pick a smaller quality shop then you will probably find you are talking to the owner and they tend to have even more knowledge - and its free!! See if you can pick out a BW (or whatever)then get it verified - simplez
Stu
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A trip to a carpet shop really is well worth the effort - Stu
Agreed.
I have a good relationship with a local carpet shop. Having just finished reading this thread, I am now late for work< ;D, also I called the shop to ask their view on the wool / linen carpets. Do you mean Crucial Trading? they asked.
Basically they refuse to stock the stuff and do not recommend it because of the problems associated with it, not least of which is that fitters dislike it.
Cheers
Mike
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Jim,don`t want to enter into a `flame war`here but,,,,,,,,
When I was with the NCCA which is quite a few years
Ago now,they classed it as `professional negligence`and
Recommend the cleaner compensate the client/customer
To 6 times the cleaning price.Also as I understand it,correct
Me here hopefully that is,but a companies terms and conditions
Of contract ar`nt worth the paper it`s printed on.The reason
Being the customers rights are statutary.
The moral here being the customer wins every time.They hold
The aces in every situation having us running around like
`blue blazes`and jumping thru`hoops when anything goes wrong !
Lewis Doubtfire
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Ask yourself this.
When this landlady eventually gets her replacement carpets of exactly the same type, they're going to get dirty - FACT. What's she going to do then?
a) live with dirty carpets
b) rip them up and replace them
c) RIP OFF another unsuspecting carpet cleaner
These carpets are sh*t, end of story. Carpets need to be cleanable, these are not, i.e. not fit for purpose. The responsibility in my opinion lies with the manufacturer.
I would argue that fact in the courts till I was blue in the face and not pay a penny unless I had guns pointed at me to do so.
I'm professional, I'm generous to customers and I do loads of favours. But I don't have MUG stamped on my forehead thank very much!
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Ask yourself this.
When this landlady eventually gets her replacement carpets of exactly the same type, they're going to get dirty - FACT. What's she going to do then?
a) live with dirty carpets
b) rip them up and replace them
c) RIP OFF another unsuspecting carpet cleaner
These carpets are sh*t, end of story. Carpets need to be cleanable, these are not, i.e. not fit for purpose. The responsibility in my opinion lies with the manufacturer.
I would argue that fact in the courts till I was blue in the face and not pay a penny unless I had guns pointed at me to do so.
I'm professional, I'm generous to customers and I do loads of favours. But I don't have MUG stamped on my forehead thank very much!
dunno why but im strangley moving in the direction of jims comment and agreeing, mind u i can see where the tattoo on ur forehead was Jim :)....
we all paid out good money 4 our training and have the ability to identify carpets and how best to clean them, but come on if someone throws a spanner in the works ur are not gonna know till you get that phone call, or by being the overly cautious person and yank the carpet off its gripper to check the backing.
It could also be a conspiracy within the machine cleaning industry to have us all throw away our HWE machines ????????? hmmmmm now theres a thought :))
i am still going to crucial trading monday if there are any points you'd like asking.
Regards Marc
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Can't agree Jim:
You are going in a whole new direction claiming 'Not Fit for Purpose'.
You must be loaded, because if you went to court to argue that you would lose....... heavily.
How is a carpet not fit for purpose ? by your definition because you say it can not be cleaned. (it can be)
The purpose of carpet is to cover the floor, add warmth, add to decor, trap soil, basically do what it says on the label.
The only way it would not be fit for purpose is if it had a manufacturing fault, was under specified by either the manufacturer or retailer (mis sold) or reacted in a adverse manner to a recommended cleaning procedure. Tough one this, as any manufacturer, should it go wrong, would argue that you did not clean it according to specifications.
This carpet was clearly fit for purpose and was not under specified, wool/flax will last for years in a high traffic area.
The method of cleaning for this carpet is LM or DRY, if you dry extract, it has been cleaned, therefore your argument goes right out the window, it can also be HOST cleaned quite safetly or with great care LM cleaned using pads.
In my opinion NO carpet is un-cleanable, its just up to you as a professional carpet cleaner to make a commercial decision as to whether you want to take it on or not, of course results would be dependent on the carpet and the process used which you qualify with the customer.
For instance why do we have so much trouble with Belguim Wiltons in this country ? it is because they are not designed to be fitted on underlay and gripper, in Europe they were/ are trade 100% stick down to hard floor, mainly in hotel environment, so when cleaned will not shrink,Its purely a British adaption to be fitted on underlay made by carpet buyers years ago who, saw an opportunity to sell 'Wiltons' very cheaply to low end users but they knew they would have to go on underlay and gripper in the home to give the appearance of a wilton installation.
Once they started shrinking after cleaning and they were inundated with claims for replacement due to under specification, they changed tack and changed the maintenance requirements covering themselves all end up and leaving poor old sud suckers picking up the bill.
Having said that T & C are a must and should be on the back of all your quotes and invoices.
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Been following this one and I do feel for you. Was in a problem with a client a couple years ago and the support from the guys on here was tremendous, as now.
Re treatment risk.
I for one, thought insurance for carpet cleaning, or any other sort of cleaning I suppose, would include insurance for the piece you working on. It doesnt.
I found this out after I went on the NCCA course and then wanted to join the NCCA. You have to show proof you have treatment risk insurance. I enquired with my broker and found I did not have treatment risk. Shock!
My then insurance company did not offer treatment risk either, so I changed insurers and joined the NCCA (who says there is no benefit of joining the NCCA - benefitted me then).
I have just changed insurers again, and one of the first criteria I set for them was that it MUST include treatment risk and I need it in print. No problem.
As to cost.
By the fact I had to change insurers to get to join NCCA, my premium dropped with the new insurer. And this year changing again has seen a further drop in cost. Worth shopping around but make sure you looking at like for like.
Well why not share the information. As I like others search evey year for an insurer who does treatment risk and have to end up with my present company
Royal Sun Alliance through Ansley Insurance Brokers who Ashbys reccomended
Regarding the current problem my stomach turns for you. and the fact that you were probably misled when you took out insurance.
Does your policy have a legal help clause, because the fitter could be a fault, the retailer could be at fault and the importer could cold be at fault aswell as yourself.
So why should you bare all the cost.
Was the customer given any cleaning advise. Does the Carpet carry any warning labels.
Difficult as you want to do right thing but I have found out that ruthless hard nose people fight to the last inch and often win
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I had a carpet shrink on me a while ago. I was fitted to a new house, concrete floor, with only tacks driven into the concrete. Sat like that for 5 years until it`s first clean, then moved a couple of cm. Fitter glued double gripper, then refitted/stretched next day, and advised customers to phone trading standards. It does give you a scare.
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Just thought about the debate about whether its worthwhile joining NCCA, well if you do join when you start in this trade, you get training, alright its pretty basic stuff but still very important i learnt a lot especially about the pitfalls ie Belgian Wilton, bleed tests that should have been done and the results if not etc etc also i would not have been able to join without the correct insurance which includes treatment risk, i did not consider the significance of that until this particular thread came up but its a sobering thought
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Been following this one and I do feel for you. Was in a problem with a client a couple years ago and the support from the guys on here was tremendous, as now.
Re treatment risk.
I for one, thought insurance for carpet cleaning, or any other sort of cleaning I suppose, would include insurance for the piece you working on. It doesnt.
I found this out after I went on the NCCA course and then wanted to join the NCCA. You have to show proof you have treatment risk insurance. I enquired with my broker and found I did not have treatment risk. Shock!
My then insurance company did not offer treatment risk either, so I changed insurers and joined the NCCA (who says there is no benefit of joining the NCCA - benefitted me then).
I have just changed insurers again, and one of the first criteria I set for them was that it MUST include treatment risk and I need it in print. No problem.
As to cost.
By the fact I had to change insurers to get to join NCCA, my premium dropped with the new insurer. And this year changing again has seen a further drop in cost. Worth shopping around but make sure you looking at like for like.
Well why not share the information. As I like others search evey year for an insurer who does treatment risk and have to end up with my present company
Royal Sun Alliance through Ansley Insurance Brokers who Ashbys reccomended
No problem Ian.
My broker is quotelinedirect 0161 8747740
Insurer Quinn Insurance Ltd
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Just thought about the debate about whether its worthwhile joining NCCA, well if you do join when you start in this trade, you get training, alright its pretty basic stuff but still very important i learnt a lot especially about the pitfalls ie Belgian Wilton, bleed tests that should have been done and the results if not etc etc also i would not have been able to join without the correct insurance which includes treatment risk, i did not consider the significance of that until this particular thread came up but its a sobering thought
Yes, I agree with you....! Maybe it's time for me to join NCCA!
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Ask yourself this.
When this landlady eventually gets her replacement carpets of exactly the same type, they're going to get dirty - FACT. What's she going to do then?
a) live with dirty carpets
b) rip them up and replace them
c) RIP OFF another unsuspecting carpet cleaner
These carpets are sh*t, end of story. Carpets need to be cleanable, these are not, i.e. not fit for purpose. The responsibility in my opinion lies with the manufacturer.
I would argue that fact in the courts till I was blue in the face and not pay a penny unless I had guns pointed at me to do so.
I'm professional, I'm generous to customers and I do loads of favours. But I don't have MUG stamped on my forehead thank very much!
Jim
I feel exactly the same. But our feelings on the matter do not come into it.
The fact is that this type of carpet can be cleaned. But only using LM or VLM. If it went to court, despite our protests I reckon they would find in favour of the custy.
The fact that the CC had not recognized the risk and cleaned accordingly would without a doubt be classed as negligence. It sucks and many CCs are going to come a cropper. I did and I started out with training and have a naturally cautious approach to any carpets that are out of the ordinary. But that is the nature of our chosen profession.
When I see this carpet in houses now( I even saw some in a rural shop ) it looks obvious now that it shouldn't be wet cleaned. That of course is with the benefit of hindsight. When foresight would have been much more useful.
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Jim, members, ya know what,this `thread`takes me back to 1978
When discutions were `mulled`over just like this one is ! The only
Difference is,this is written and not spoken face to face like it was
In those days.
Just goes to prove,nothing has moved forward at all…………At all !!
The late Alan Vaughan spoke about acts of parliament and laws being
Changed.It would all be left to the NCCA.Not a hope in hell !
Jim,I can see your point,but also other members too.
At the end of the day the custy wins.Always have and always will.
The job comes with the territory.
Shrinkage,or anything that goes wrong,it`s our occupational hazzard.
Nobody is forcing us to stay in the job,we carry on cleaning at our own
Choice.Don`t forget,we are all consumers.
Lewis Doubtfire
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Glyn,how are you getting on with this job and customer ?
This carpet might be starting to `relax`out by now.
Lewis Doubtfire
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Hello again - Sorry for not being on line for a few days - My PC got hit by 47 viruses!!!! Unfortunately no change in carpets. We are with an insurer required by NCCA, but policy makes no mention of "treatment risk". Claim forms were sent off last week & we awaiting response from insurance company. I will update as soon as we have more information. Once again, thank you everyone for your input & advice....you are amazing xx
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My PC got hit by 47 viruses!!!! Unfortunately no change in carpets. We are with an insurer required by NCCA, but policy makes no mention of "treatment risk".
First one - have you downloaded and installed AVG Free Edition? If not - do it
Second - NCCA require you to show you have treatment risk before you can become a member and renew. If you are a member of the NCCA you will have had to submit the document showing this. If you changed policy mid year and it does not include treatment risk, well.............
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just read the whole thread and it's taken me ages but a very educating experience. I wonder as the lady said it had been HWE (hot water extracted??) before, say if i was to do a job like this and didn't beleive that would be the case but she insisted it was, could i get her to sign something to say that she said that and that she then is liable if HWE causes any problems?
also does treatment risk cover for negligence in the end? if it doens't what do it cover for which public liability doesn't, and can you get any isurance that covers for negligence?
Jim, members, ya know what,this `thread`takes me back to 1978
When discutions were `mulled`over just like this one is ! The only
Difference is,this is written and not spoken face to face like it was
In those days.
Just goes to prove,nothing has moved forward at all…………At all !!
The late Alan Vaughan spoke about acts of parliament and laws being
Changed.It would all be left to the NCCA.Not a hope in hell !
Jim,I can see your point,but also other members too.
At the end of the day the custy wins.Always have and always will.
The job comes with the territory.
Shrinkage,or anything that goes wrong,it`s our occupational hazzard.
Nobody is forcing us to stay in the job,we carry on cleaning at our own
Choice.Don`t forget,we are all consumers.
Lewis Doubtfire
just out of curiosity, why do you post like this? the lines are the exact same size unless end of a sentence and have capital letters at the beginning of every new line even though it's not a new sentence. not a dig at you at all, i'm just curios if you're using some funny bit of technology or something? :)
i really feel for you GlynE. i can't imagine how much this must hurt to possibly lose thousands, or even think you may lose thousands. just hope you can find some big cleans over the next few weeks to cover the lose.
what are people's thoughts on the over all cost of this mistake? if insurnace does pick it up and pay, what would be the premium next year? i assume not too much as it'd be cheaper to not claim but i'd like to know so that i can rest/worry knowing if i ever cause a problem what the outcome is likely to be.
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If a floor covering product is sold to the general public but has different characteristics from other similar products which might cause problems when treated as sililar products I'd have thought it would ( under the trade descriptions act ) require a Disclaimer or Warning Notice at least.
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Thank you Joe for info re AVG - We had Bullguard in place, but it expired on the day we got hit by all the viruses ...
Insurance have asked for quotes for replacement carpets (Approx £2K), so just awaiting outcome...
Thank you again for all your advice & support everyone - it is good to know that it is out there. We are very, very careful now what we clean. It really does knock your confidence. Everything is tested & double tested....
Will let you know as soon as we receive decision from insurers...
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The old adage "What doe not kill you makes you stronger" should apply here. Do not let your confidence suffer. I hope the insurance outome is the right one for you.
Mike S
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GlynE
Another tip to look after your computer
Download this free program http://www.iobit.com/systemcare.html
Been using it a few months now and my computer has speeded up.
I would also recommend going over from Internet Explorer and using Google Chrome.
I use these on my computer and feel I have benifitted.
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Thank you Mike - your words are very true & much appreciated.
Thank you also Joe. I will most certainly have a look at that link. I had thought of Google, but I have designed our websites myself thru office live (So that I can update & maintain them myself) so I need to be able to still access those, especially my website for healing as I have to add testimonials).... but thank you again, you are so very kind
It has been such a pleasure speaking with you all & receiving your help & support. I will let you know outcome as soon as we hear their decision.
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Final update - Insurance have accepted claim & Guest house are now in process of having carpets replaced (With Seagrass again). Thank you again for all your very kind help, thoughts & advice. It is so good to know that there are so many nice, friendly & helpful people out there. Thank you all
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with seagrass again, i wonder why? ;D
guess they'll be getting a new one in a few years time and we'll be giving advice to unsuspecting cc in the future. ;D
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lucky escape! how much was it going to cost if they hadn't covered it?
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with seagrass again, i wonder why? ;D
guess they'll be getting a new one in a few years time and we'll be giving advice to unsuspecting cc in the future. ;D
the likely hood is the didnt have a choice in replacement. your prob right derek 3 years time someone elses insurance will pay for their new flooring.
good news though gla you got i sorted out
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Final update - Insurance have accepted claim & Guest house are now in process of having carpets replaced (With Seagrass again). Thank you again for all your very kind help, thoughts & advice. It is so good to know that there are so many nice, friendly & helpful people out there. Thank you all
I am glad insurance as acepted claim but I am puzzled as I thought you said you did not have treatment risk
If you have ot an insurance company paid up makes me wonder why the rest of us pay extra for this cover.
If you could clarify it would be very hepful
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It is always a shame when this sort of thing happens but this could have been
avoided if a proper survey had been done prior to carrying out the clean.
It is no good blaming the carpet fitter because even when fully stuck to the
underlay as in a commercial installation this carpet would still shrink if it was
extraction cleaned.
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we all make mistakes expro, even me :o ;D
human nature i'm affraid, the idea is to learn from them. and if there a happy ending like this one then all the better.
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Derek Nooooooooooooo lol ;D
Tony
ps missed you at carpex Thursday m8
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well i'm sure we'll meet again some sunny day tony. ;D
and i got a round in (coffee's that is) ya missed that one.