Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 07:56:45 pm

Title: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 07:56:45 pm
What do guys think of putting a printed note through custards doors once theyve cleaned their windows in icy weather, something like:

Quote
We are delighted to confirm that your windows have been cleaned today.

However due to the inclement weather we are finding it necessary to sweep any excess water from pathways and patios etc in addition to salting them.

There still remains a slight although continuing possibility of slippage; we therefore advise you to use caution and if possible avoid using these areas until they have dried entirely.

Many thanks

Bla bla bla window cleaners.
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Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: matt on January 06, 2010, 08:01:03 pm
it would look great when handed to a judge in court

you are allmost admitting liability for falls

infact i would go as far as inviting people to pretend to fall for a " no-win no-fee claim "

if you know the water will freeze, dont clean


Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: johnny_h on January 06, 2010, 08:02:52 pm
it would look great when handed to a judge in court

you are allmost admitting liability for falls

infact i would go as far as inviting people to pretend to fall for a " no-win no-fee claim "

if you know the water will freeze, dont clean


well said !! and why not post a blank cheque while your there save going to court
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: pingu on January 06, 2010, 08:03:22 pm
In the way the world should be...that is perfect but I suspect in the unlikely event 'something' occurs I imagine a lawyer would be very happy to have that placed in their hands...

Does anyone here have access to one of the window cleaners unions/federations? lawyers this might be a very good question to present them.

Cheers
Dave.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: Dennis Taylor on January 06, 2010, 08:03:36 pm
Matt that seems a pretty good idea, at least you've done all you can to reduce the risk by salting and then warning them of any possible dangers by leaving them a note ( as long as they read it or deny ever recieving it at all )
Short of coning everything off or not doing them at all i can't see what else you could do.

Dennis
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: tompoole on January 06, 2010, 08:05:33 pm
think you are just leaving yourself open, if they fall they have it in writing that its a good chance its your fault , can c the claims now.
If you need to work in freezing conditions just buy more salt , throw it down and thats it, if asked about how you work in freezing conditions give them one of your risk assesments or method statement, then you are covered,
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: JSMC on January 06, 2010, 08:12:24 pm
similar thing happened in my old work 2 years back. we had some heavy frost but wasn't that bad. A person was wlaking through yard and fell. 10 mins later people oout with salt covering yard.

basically admitting liability
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: Ian Rochester on January 06, 2010, 08:12:58 pm
There was an article on the local news yesterday, a woman fell on the ice and broke her arm, she happened to be a lawyer of some sort, when she was interviewed she stated that by law businesses and councils are responsible for taking all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of staff and passers-by and as the path wasn't properly gritted she was entitled to take them to court for damages.....she wasn't going to, but she could have.

Your defence would go something like this

"Yes milord, I knew I was throwing copious amounts of water onto the pavement, yes I knew it was going to freeze immediately, but I left a warning note for the occupier, how was I to know that she was out and would slip and break her arm/leg before getting into the house to read my warning note!"
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: niceandclean on January 06, 2010, 08:23:08 pm
" On your own land, it is a different matter. You owe visitors a duty under the Occupiers Liability Act 1984 to take reasonable care to ensure that they are reasonably safe. This means that if you know someone (such as the postman) is likely to walk up your garden path, and you also know that the garden path is slippery, you must take reasonable steps to clear the path of snow and grit it if necessary"

Mark Loveday is a barrister at Tanfield Chambers, 2-5 Warwick Court, London WC1R 5DJ. 020-7421 5300

I call all my customers the night/2 nights before to inform them that i am coming. How would i stand if i slipped and fell?

Plus they know i am coming, they know how i clean, i tell them we salt, how would i stand if the customer fell and tried to sue me?
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: matt on January 06, 2010, 08:27:34 pm
the important thing here is not if they will win, its the fact that the compo culture society we live in means you will have costs for a lawyer ( law firm ) as its very easy to phone a no-win no-fee outfit, you can even text them and they call you back

is it worth the risk  ?? ? ? ?
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 08:55:41 pm
Okay guys, I hear you; to me though its ALSO saying they're being negligent by ignoring your advise. 

There was that business a while ago about kids on school outings going to farms and the possibility of them catching diseases because they stroke the animals; but so long as the farm has signs up saying not to do that then theyre covered.

How about in your defence you came up with:

'Theyre employing me, they have asked me to clean their windows regularly,  for financial reward, its a contract'.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: BORBRYCE on January 06, 2010, 08:58:19 pm
Manage your buisness with proper financial foresight and you wont even think about typing that madness. ;)
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 09:00:46 pm
I do thankyou Ronnie.

There is nothing wrong with this thread or anything in it.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 09:18:18 pm
Additionally when you go into a supermarket and theyre cleaning the floors, wet remember!

They put up 'Caution Wet Floor' signs to ensure customer safety and prevent claims being made against them.

Can previous posters tell me what is the legal difference between that and what I have suggested please?
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 09:40:23 pm
Sorry to bore you all, been doing a bit of research. The text below is taken from an injury lawyers website, in it he appears to be saying that if you do what can be reasonably expected of you and notify the custard that the floor is likely to be wet then you arent liable should a custard have an accident.

Quote
The water that had led to the slip was a result of the cleaner cleaning the floor and accidentally spilling some liquid, but they had put no signs to say that the floor was wet.

http://www.compensationclaims4u.com/claim-types/slips_trips_falls.php
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: Steve_c on January 06, 2010, 09:41:38 pm
I think its quite a good idea.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 09:45:54 pm
Quote
Mr Brice was awarded £1,895.41 after his accident at a train station. He was walking along the platform when he slipped on the wet floor and fell, injuring the muscles and hamstring in his leg.  Cleaners had wet the floor without displaying any warning signs. Mr Brice's thank you letter read: "Thank you for forwarding the cheque for £1,895.41 in settlement of my claim. I would also like to thank you and your staff for the excellent service and help I have received over this claim which has now reached a satisfactory conclusion. I have also noted your comments regarding my file of papers. Once again, thank you all very much".


http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/Other-Accidents/slip-trip-injury-compensation-claims.htm#am_i_entitled_slip_trip_fall_compensation_claim
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: Nathanael Jones on January 06, 2010, 09:48:44 pm
Gardiners recommend salting:

http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/Cold_Weather_Precautions.html
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: mci services on January 06, 2010, 10:02:25 pm
Gardiners recommend salting:

http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/Cold_Weather_Precautions.html

so does the hse it clearly states if your work is going to cause a slip hazard then one method is to grit the iced area
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: BORBRYCE on January 06, 2010, 10:06:28 pm
Quote
Yes milord, I knew I was throwing copious amounts of water onto the pavement, yes I knew it was going to freeze immediately, but I left a warning note for the occupier, how was I to know that she was out and would slip and break her arm/leg before getting into the house to read my warning note!"

Matt, your missing the points.
1. How many times do we hear wfp opperators saying "if custy dont care about my safety, they can get someone else to clean" I havent come across you saying that but I will guess you have thought it. What you are suggesting is hypocritical.

2. You really are putting custies at risk by cleaning by wfp when it is freezing at ground level, even if you do have good intentions by leaving a note of sorts. As the quote above by Ian Rochester states, they may not see it till its too late.

3 A guy with your inteligence should not be putting himself in such a position in the first place that he feels he has to go and clean windies in those conditions.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 10:13:35 pm
Quote
Yes milord, I knew I was throwing copious amounts of water onto the pavement, yes I knew it was going to freeze immediately, but I left a warning note for the occupier, how was I to know that she was out and would slip and break her arm/leg before getting into the house to read my warning note!"

Matt, your missing the points.
1. How many times do we hear wfp opperators saying "if custy dont care about my safety, they can get someone else to clean" What you are suggesting is hypocritical.

Im not being hypocritical as Ive never said the above.

The reason I have posted this is because I think at the very least the discussion has some mileage. I also believe that if supermarkets, shops, precincts and other areas where custards frequent can clean legally then why cant we?


I feel strongly about certain points that are brought up on this forum, I have in the past dismissed the thought of cleaning in this weather as madness, without thinking about it.

Yesterday when I was out there after each house Id go round and squeegee off all wetted areas with a floor squeegee. Prior to salting those areas but after squeeging them I was pleasantly surprised at how well they came up, let alone once I had salted them.

I wouldnt think WFPing with 4 inches of snow on the ground as a good management decision but if the ground is dry prior to turning up and frost is forecast I think its worth considering.

I am a member of the F.S.B. tomorrow I may give them a call regarding some free legal advice.

Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: jeff1 on January 06, 2010, 10:16:31 pm
I'm posting this through my custy's door in future  ;D

Dear customer,, I cleaned your windows today and I was bloody freezing, I've had a real crap day because including yourself no one was home so now I'm going home skint, I also broke my flask when I slipped on this bloody ice rink I built you, so no hot drink for me today, Mr blogs at No 73 was kind enough to mention he would have given me a glass of whiskey to warm me up but he had no Ice  ::) So in my wisdom I've just just sold him a half ton block of the stuff  ;D but the fool paid me by cheque  ::)

My brush is still frozen to your window so I can't do any more work anyway and I would be grateful if you could keep your eye on my brush for me, I've detached it from the pole so no idiot like the postman or your husband when he comes home from the pub half cut will trip over it.

Oh and another thing?...All the water I sprayed around the place has all frozen so your path is now the ice rink I've just mentioned, now it would normally cost you £20 to go to a proper ice rink but I've have been kind enough to build you your own personal one in your garden, so I think an extra £10 on top of your half done window clean isn't being unreasonable.

P.S.
If your husband does return home half cut and in his ultimate wisdom goes Arse over Tip then please think again before going to one of these no win no fee companies because I don't have a penny to scratch my arse with.


P.P.S
When my brush has thawed out can you just give that window a quick wash for me.   ;)

Your ever loyal and friendly window cleaner.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 06, 2010, 10:17:45 pm
Now that IS thinking outside the box  ;)
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: TC1 on January 06, 2010, 10:37:55 pm
Matt, I think the note is a good idea, I put this on a thread from MB the other day :

In a previous life I was a Health & Saftey manager and worked for a large hotel group. I think you will find if you create a "hazard" you have a "duty of care" to reduce the risk of causing harm, therfore salting the ground after you have put water on it to reduce the risk of a slip hazard shows "due dilligance" rather than doing nothing and leave the water to freeze!

Tony
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: matt on January 06, 2010, 10:59:06 pm
I'm posting this through my custy's door in future  ;D

Dear customer,, I cleaned your windows today and I was bloody freezing, I've had a real crap day because including yourself no one was home so now I'm going home skint, I also broke my flask when I slipped on this bloody ice rink I built you, so no hot drink for me today, Mr blogs at No 73 was kind enough to mention he would have given me a glass of whiskey to warm me up but he had no Ice  ::) So in my wisdom I've just just sold him a half ton block of the stuff  ;D but the fool paid me by cheque  ::)

My brush is still frozen to your window so I can't do any more work anyway and I would be grateful if you could keep your eye on my brush for me, I've detached it from the pole so no idiot like the postman or your husband when he comes home from the pub half cut will trip over it.

Oh and another thing?...All the water I sprayed around the place has all frozen so your path is now the ice rink I've just mentioned, now it would normally cost you £20 to go to a proper ice rink but I've have been kind enough to build you your own personal one in your garden, so I think an extra £10 on top of your half done window clean isn't being unreasonable.

P.S.
If your husband does return home half cut and in his ultimate wisdom goes Arse over Tip then please think again before going to one of these no win no fee companies because I don't have a penny to scratch my arse with.


P.P.S
When my brush has thawed out can you just give that window a quick wash for me.   ;)

Your ever loyal and friendly window cleaner.

very good jeff

could you reword it for cleaning in the rain  ;)
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: davids3511 on January 06, 2010, 11:06:46 pm
Matt, the problem is that to read your slip of paper they have to walk up the icy path first if they are out. What if they slip and fall before they ever got to read your notice?
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: Ian Rochester on January 06, 2010, 11:15:01 pm
It's a minefield, can't use ladders for risk of killing yourself, can't use WFP for risk of injuring custys............. might put in for that night shift job at Sainsburys!!
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: jeff1 on January 07, 2010, 12:06:32 am
I'm posting this through my custy's door in future  ;D

Dear customer,, I cleaned your windows today and I was bloody freezing, I've had a real crap day because including yourself no one was home so now I'm going home skint, I also broke my flask when I slipped on this bloody ice rink I built you, so no hot drink for me today, Mr blogs at No 73 was kind enough to mention he would have given me a glass of whiskey to warm me up but he had no Ice  ::) So in my wisdom I've just just sold him a half ton block of the stuff  ;D but the fool paid me by cheque  ::)

My brush is still frozen to your window so I can't do any more work anyway and I would be grateful if you could keep your eye on my brush for me, I've detached it from the pole so no idiot like the postman or your husband when he comes home from the pub half cut will trip over it.

Oh and another thing?...All the water I sprayed around the place has all frozen so your path is now the ice rink I've just mentioned, now it would normally cost you £20 to go to a proper ice rink but I've have been kind enough to build you your own personal one in your garden, so I think an extra £10 on top of your half done window clean isn't being unreasonable.

P.S.
If your husband does return home half cut and in his ultimate wisdom goes Arse over Tip then please think again before going to one of these no win no fee companies because I don't have a penny to scratch my arse with.


P.P.S
When my brush has thawed out can you just give that window a quick wash for me.   ;)

Your ever loyal and friendly window cleaner.

very good jeff

could you reword it for cleaning in the rain  ;)

Well just a quick one before I hit the sack

Dear custy
 
Today, I was soaked to the skin at your property and although I was working in the torrential rain and I'll probably end up with pneumonia or at best the flu and believe me I suffer from man flu so its not funny and all this for the few measly quid that you be-grudgingly pay me ::) so don't come out moaning that your path is wet because it wasn't my fault this time.

You may come home and find your windows are still wet and if you do then don't moan that the window cleaner with his brush on a stick left them wet because while you have been sat on your arse in a nice warm office earning £30,000 a year for doing nothing, I have to work in this rain and today I've only earned myself £10 and with all my overheads I'm already £50 down ::) we have yet to convince a manufacturer to incorporate a umbrella into our poles so we can stay dry whilst cleaning in the rain.

I would normally wear my wet weather gear but the last time I was here your husband though that someone had thrown a condom out of your bedroom window, were in-fact it was me in my wet weather gear, so to save you any future embarrassment with your husband I no longer wear it at your property and because of this my wellies fill up with rain water.

I've also decided to add a surcharge on for any customer who moans about us cleaning windows in the rain and the reason for this surcharge is that I save you getting up out of your nice cumfy armchairs to water your shrubs and plants.  
Don't think because its raining the rain will do the job because it doesn't give them as good as soaking as I do with my magic water.

People think that we window cleaners are the bottom of the pile and we are thick were in-fact are job is an art in its self and we have to be very clever to work out some facts like, Water freezes at 32 degrees and boils at 212 degrees. There are 180 degrees between freezing and boiling because there are 180 degrees between north and south now can you see why I have to work in the bloody rain??
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: jeff1 on January 07, 2010, 12:07:14 am
Matt, the problem is that to read your slip of paper they have to walk up the icy path first if they are out. What if they slip and fall before they ever got to read your notice?

Simple solution is you nail one to the gate as well  ;D
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: stevef78 on January 07, 2010, 12:17:31 am
Quote
Mr Brice was awarded £1,895.41 after his accident at a train station. He was walking along the platform when he slipped on the wet floor and fell, injuring the muscles and hamstring in his leg.  Cleaners had wet the floor without displaying any warning signs. Mr Brice's thank you letter read: "Thank you for forwarding the cheque for £1,895.41 in settlement of my claim. I would also like to thank you and your staff for the excellent service and help I have received over this claim which has now reached a satisfactory conclusion. I have also noted your comments regarding my file of papers. Once again, thank you all very much".
fair comment,i think if your poles aint froze go with it...i would ;D ;D

http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/Other-Accidents/slip-trip-injury-compensation-claims.htm#am_i_entitled_slip_trip_fall_compensation_claim
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 07, 2010, 08:51:13 am
Matt, the problem is that to read your slip of paper they have to walk up the icy path first if they are out. What if they slip and fall before they ever got to read your notice?

Hold on fellas, thats a bit defeatist.

I dont spray water all over paths first off.

The water.....its below windows, the front door doesnt get done unless you want to cloth it or do it trad.

What does get done gets swept and salted, so the ice is gone!


As for the icy path, thats their problem, it has NOTHING to do with you.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: Window Washers on January 07, 2010, 08:56:19 am
Matt, the problem is that to read your slip of paper they have to walk up the icy path first if they are out. What if they slip and fall before they ever got to read your notice?

Hold on fellas, thats a bit defeatist.

I dont spray water all over paths first off.

The water.....its below windows, the front door doesnt get done unless you want to cloth it or do it trad.

What does get done gets swept and salted, so the ice is gone!


As for the icy path, thats their problem, it has NOTHING to do with you.
Matt, there are many people that do not want you to work and or do not want to work in this weather, they can give an excuse for just about anything to stop earning money or to not work. dON'T TALK ABOUT RAIN ASWELL OR YOU WILL GET IT BOTH BARRELLS, sry cant see the text and not re writting it for the 3rd time..
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 07, 2010, 09:10:17 am
Fair point.  :)
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: gewindows on January 07, 2010, 03:24:50 pm
I have just spoken to the Underwriters at my Insurance company regarding this.

I explained to them what I have explained here and they were happy to inform me if one of my  customers had an accident as a result of this then in all likelihood the case would end up at court and if I was found to be negligent then they would then cover me for any liability.


If I was found NOT negligent then no worries.
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: matt on January 07, 2010, 04:39:13 pm
I have just spoken to the Underwriters at my Insurance company regarding this.

I explained to them what I have explained here and they were happy to inform me if one of my  customers had an accident as a result of this then in all likelihood the case would end up at court and if I was found to be negligent then they would then cover me for any liability.


If I was found NOT negligent then no worries.

get it in writing ;)

but you knew that anyway
Title: Re: Danger Icey Water!
Post by: JRDEasiReach on January 07, 2010, 04:51:23 pm
What do guys think of putting a printed note through custards doors once theyve cleaned their windows in icy weather, something like:

Quote
We are delighted to confirm that your windows have been cleaned today.

However due to the inclement weather we are finding it necessary to sweep any excess water from pathways and patios etc in addition to salting them.

There still remains a slight although continuing possibility of slippage; we therefore advise you to use caution and if possible avoid using these areas until they have dried entirely.

Many thanks

Bla bla bla window cleaners.
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i just avoid their front doors the rest of the place is icy before we start so why worry about making it worse?  plus what about the part before they get in their door :) what if they fell not knowing you were round and then seen your note and thought 'oh a claim' :(