Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Central Window Cleaners on December 22, 2009, 01:55:27 pm
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I am considering selling my business can anyone advise what I might be able to ask for it please.
It has been established for 15 years + and has been Ltd for the past 5 years
It is based in Warwickshire covering approx 30 mile radius of Nuneaton.
average turnover per month is £5000, there are 2 small vans with WFP setups, ladders
and all trad gear etc.
Also RO system and static tank and pump for water production
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why sell up when your making a good living?
for what you would get for it wouldnt be worth after all your hard work building it all up!
Don't do it mate!
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why sell up when your making a good living?
for what you would get for it wouldnt be worth after all your hard work building it all up!
Don't do it mate!
hes won the lottery ;D ;D
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Wish I had won the lottery
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I am considering selling my business can anyone advise what I might be able to ask for it please.
It has been established for 15 years + and has been Ltd for the past 5 years
It is based in Warwickshire covering approx 30 mile radius of Nuneaton.
average turnover per month is £5000, there are 2 small vans with WFP setups, ladders
and all trad gear etc.
Also RO system and static tank and pump for water production
If I were you mate I would be looking for around 40K with a 5K monthly income and vans and accessories then its defo worth that region
there are some con men who were on here not so long ago saying thet were w/c but were just buying up work then trying to sell for 10 times the monthly value
your sounds like a propor business to go so should be a real bargain to someone really serious about getting into this business.
good luck mate.
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Whats happened tony?
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Hiya Wayne,
will tell you when I see you next, just considering all my options at the moment.
Thanks Guys any more advise or possibly offers would be much appreciated.
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Do you have any work for sale in Warwick and Leamington Spa?
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Hi Chris,
no nothing in that areas. If I was to sell up it would be as a business as a whole if possible.
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It's probably worth a fair bit.How many does it generally take to operate it and what is the standing of the other/s worker?
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why sell up when your making a good living?
for what you would get for it wouldnt be worth after all your hard work building it all up!
Don't do it mate!
hes won the lottery ;D ;D
I won it as well a couple of weeks ago but the £10 won't change my life :)
Seriously though - about the business. It really is a tough call on that. I mean, what would the vans and equipment be worth between them £6 - £20k depending on age and condition? Also, the premises? I assume that isn't part of the sale unless you have bought it outright. Then there's the work. £5k a month and very well established. Assuming good hourly rates can be earned that could be worth a fair premium. However, 2.5k turnover per man/van per month although OK, isn't anything particularly special but the work is well established and someone could start work the same day they bought it and could build on it or cherry pick the work. Are there any written/signed contracts with the commercial work? Would you agree not to trade (as a window cleaner) in the area for a certain period? Or are you cherry picking the best bits to simplify your life a bit? (nothing wrong with this IMO so long as you don't seek your old customers).
I'm not asking this with a view to buying I hasten to add but these are things that would need to be discussed and agreeed to when calculating a price.
Work often sells for 2 - 4 times monthly turnover. I unserdtand that there is a bubble in your area and it sometimes goes for 10x. If 10x + mid range equipment price, plus an agreement not to trade for several years, a shot in the dark tells me around £55k - £60k. However, if the work is not top work and you want to continue trading (without encroaching) maybe £30 - £35k. It really is a tough one to call though. A top quality round with top quality equipment/newish vans maybe as high as 80k even - though I reckon this would be top whack. You may even be better off to split it in two as it's possible you could get a bit more for each half.
As ever, it's only worth what someone is prepared to pay and if you would be prepared to take that.
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may has well give it away if you listen to some on here..........hey 1wayno ;D
i mean otherwise your responsible fr onest hardworking people not being able to work.
but back to topic the importnt figuer is the Profit then from that you can see how sellable it is
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may has well give it away if you listen to some on here..........hey 1wayno ;D
i mean otherwise your responsible fr onest hardworking people not being able to work.
but back to topic the importnt figuer is the Profit then from that you can see how sellable it is
It would help a lot if he specified age/condition of vans because that alone could vary the price by 15k. There are too many variables to be accurate on here. It's one of those things you need to see up and running really.
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may has well give it away if you listen to some on here..........hey 1wayno ;D
i mean otherwise your responsible fr onest hardworking people not being able to work.
but back to topic the importnt figuer is the Profit then from that you can see how sellable it is
im sorry ronnie im suprised ur not tellin him to sell it for 4x then u can buy it and sell it on for 7x plus,coz hey aparently that what u do..con people ;D
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Thank you again guys for all the info and help and support I would be lost without this forum.
I will consider my options over the christmas holidays.
If I was to sell up it will be as a whole, I would not be keeping any of the work or looking to
continue in window cleaning. I would also be happy to sign a sales contract to that effect.
Hope everyone has a great christmas and you all get plenty of tips.
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never bought a round and sold it i buy or long term goals not short term.
Now if i did buy fo x4 and sell for x7 am i a con r a smart businss man
wayno you proberly dont know the difference ;D
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you have contridicting views of selling rounds,u believe that u shunt pay no more than 4x for a round..but u wudnt sell for any less than 7x..jus contridicting. i jus dont see why some people have to be soo greedy,it dus ruin it for other people,and it jus mainly the noth west which is like this,and i think it out of order. my mate got offered a round that brought in jus under 2k a month and the guy wanted 18k for it,my mate jus laffed,i cant see how people have the nerv askin for that kinda money.
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Wayno
If a guy has got his own business then its up to him how much he is willing to sell it for,if he has genuine books etc then its probably worth more than someone trying to offload a few hundred quids worth that hasnt been cleaned for months.I have been doing this work for 10yrs and have a tidy little business and circumstances would depend how much i sold it for,if i was going back to a normal job then maybe 4x the monthly income would be ok as i wouldnt be able to clean it any longer and therefore would want a quick sale,however if i was selling and wasnt desperate then maybe a lot more,as ronnie says it takes a while to build a business not 5 mins and to let it go cheaply to someone after a cheap way into what can be a lucrative business would be wrong.
Wayne
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Spot on Steveo.... ;D
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yeh but iv also bin offered a round that brings in £200 a month and the guy wanted 10x for it..2k!!!! now if thats not bein greedy then i dont know what is,and it was only a bog standard round,im not tlkin about sellin a full buisness,im tlkin about sellin individual rounds here,and askin for 7-10x for a bog standard round with bog standard prices is out of order in my opinion,and i know that alot of people wud agree with that.
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wayneter ill try to make it simple for you im not saying a round should be sold for 4x think a good round is worth a lot more......BUT i dont need to buy work my turnover has doubled in the last year without canvassing........BUT if i seen a good round for 4x i wouldsnap there hand off has it would make GOOD BUSINESS SENSE(not sure if you know what that is) ;)
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wayneter ill try to make it simple for you im not saying a round should be sold for 4x think a good round is worth a lot more......BUT i dont need to buy work my turnover has doubled in the last year without canvassing........BUT if i seen a good round for 4x i wouldsnap there hand off has it would make GOOD BUSINESS SENSE(not sure if you know what that is) ;)
roneta i'll make it simple for you,if its a good round,ie. excellent prices,good paying customers,compact,easy work,then yeh it is worth abit more,but askin for 7-10times is a P take. espec for a bog standard round with bog standard prices askin for 7-10x is out of order,coz they not worth that kinda money,its that simple. im tlkin about individual rounds,not a buisness as a whole.
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Hi Tony whats happened ,hope everythings ok
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you have contridicting views of selling rounds,u believe that u shunt pay no more than 4x for a round..but u wudnt sell for any less than 7x..jus contridicting. i jus dont see why some people have to be soo greedy,it dus ruin it for other people,and it jus mainly the noth west which is like this,and i think it out of order. my mate got offered a round that brought in jus under 2k a month and the guy wanted 18k for it,my mate jus laffed,i cant see how people have the nerv askin for that kinda money.
You under value yourself m8, if you have great work and great pricing sure as eggs are eggs it will be more expensive. unless your work is crap as is your pricing, I would not know either as I do not know you are what you do. do you see the point ?
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Where's your Christmas spirit ?
Please refrain from swearing, I would hate to see any one banned over Christmas
Back to the topic.
from my reckoning, similar businesses sell for x 10-12 months profit
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wayneta slob(harry enfield charcter, what a programe) if you have a great round with great prices ill have it for 4 x, im guessingthe reason you would sell for 4x is its not!!!
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Here we go again ::) ::) ::) ::)
Does nobody ever take any notice of previous debates??
For anyone who has any experience of business other than window cleaning, there is a simple formula that can be applied to any buisiness.
1 The selling value of a business is what someone is prepared to pay for it.
2 The guide price is calculated as: 1.5 to 2.5 times the ANNUAL net profit, plus the value of any stock, vehicles equipment etc.
So for a business turning over £5000 per month, first take off all expenses (insurance, equipment repairs and replacements, vehicle expenses and devaluation, wages, employers national insurance etc etc). Multiply the result by 12, and then by 1.5 or 2.5 to get the 'ball park' figure.
Assume net monthly profit on £5000 with 2 employees is about £1,200 (wages at £350/week plus £1,000 other expenses) then the value is £21,600 to £36,000.
If there is one working principal and one employee, the monthly net profit would be about £2,600 (principals earnings are "profit" for this purpose) giving a value of £46,800 to £78,000
Go to any business transfer agent and these are the figures they will give you
To this figure you must add the value of any vehicles, equipment, stock etc
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At last. Well said Ian. :)
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Ian
I totally agree with point 1.
In my investigations through talking to a former bank manager, he says in reality service businesses such as ours sell for 10-12 times, the monthly net profit.
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In essence,it would be cheaper to buy your round Dave than Ians :). I think Ians point No1 is the most relevent as the seller always wants more than the buyer values it at.
An old pikey once told me ,when he bid me in the nuts for my pick-up that one bidder is better than then lookers! ;D
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so then wayno if someone offered you 10x you simply say NO,but i let you have it for 4x cause i dont want to be greedy.
get real m8.think before you speak. ;) ;)
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Thanks LJS cleaning,
yes everything is ok just getting a bit pee'd off being and employer and was looking at all my options thats all
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it not whats its worth it what someone will pay for it
and someone in your area wanting to buy it and have the funds
we can all say what our rounds are worth buts it finding a buyer in our area !!!
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Here we go again ::) ::) ::) ::)
Does nobody ever take any notice of previous debates??
For anyone who has any experience of business other than window cleaning, there is a simple formula that can be applied to any buisiness.
1 The selling value of a business is what someone is prepared to pay for it.
2 The guide price is calculated as: 1.5 to 2.5 times the ANNUAL net profit, plus the value of any stock, vehicles equipment etc.
So for a business turning over £5000 per month, first take off all expenses (insurance, equipment repairs and replacements, vehicle expenses and devaluation, wages, employers national insurance etc etc). Multiply the result by 12, and then by 1.5 or 2.5 to get the 'ball park' figure.
Assume net monthly profit on £5000 with 2 employees is about £1,200 (wages at £350/week plus £1,000 other expenses) then the value is £21,600 to £36,000.
If there is one working principal and one employee, the monthly net profit would be about £2,600 (principals earnings are "profit" for this purpose) giving a value of £46,800 to £78,000
Go to any business transfer agent and these are the figures they will give you
To this figure you must add the value of any vehicles, equipment, stock etc
Good post Ian. In my post earlier I was thinking along the lines of two self-employed people running a partnership without staff. I see that the number of staff would have a dramatic effect on the value.
Something else that I hadn't considered though is VAT. Presumably such a business would be wanting to grow and exceed the VAT threshhold at some point. Although this ought to be very doable, there could be a need to allow for losing some domestic customers due to the higher price and/or carry a reduced profit by absorbing some/all of the VAT. Of course, if the business is already VAT registered and running smoothly with this in place, perhaps this could increase the sale value as it's one less obstacle to face in the near future.
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ewan that is a great post and may well open some eyes :)
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Glad you liked it, because the more window cleaners view there business “just like any other kind of business” the more chance of a pot of gold when you do decide to sell. ;D
And pigs may fly!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think we should take bets on what he actually gets, if indeed he decides to sell.
I'll start it off.
My bet is about one third of what Ewan & Ronnie think. ;)
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how much do you want to bet mac???
so you say 1/3 of my valuation which would be abot 40-50 grand including equipment this is worked out on about 1.5 x annual profit which iv guestimated plus stock(vehicles and equipment)
so shall we have have ten grand on it mac??? has your valuation is about 13-15 grand
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how much do you want to bet mac???
so you say 1/3 of my valuation which would be abot 40-50 grand including equipment this is worked out on about 1.5 x annual profit which iv guestimated plus stock(vehicles and equipment)
so shall we have have ten grand on it mac??? has your valuation is about 13-15 grand
Yes, nearest final price wins! ;)
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cool im happy with that. get my cheque ready mac ;)
central ill have it for 35k mac will give you ten of that ;D
Just so we all can see there was a business that cleaned windows has it main service it had two vans a couple of employees and some trusted subbies its profits were about 55k turnover 150ish it sold for for near 150k and that was 3 years go.
it can be don if yo have the business run right.
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cool im happy with that. get my cheque ready mac ;)
central ill have it for 35k mac will give you ten of that ;D
Just so we all can see there was a business that cleaned windows has it main service it had two vans a couple of employees and some trusted subbies its profits were about 55k turnover 150ish it sold for for near 150k and that was 3 years go.
it can be don if yo have the business run right.
Things were very, very different three years ago ronald. ;) get your reddies ready! :-*
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you have contridicting views of selling rounds,u believe that u shunt pay no more than 4x for a round..but u wudnt sell for any less than 7x..jus contridicting. i jus dont see why some people have to be soo greedy,it dus ruin it for other people,and it jus mainly the noth west which is like this,and i think it out of order. my mate got offered a round that brought in jus under 2k a month and the guy wanted 18k for it,my mate jus laffed,i cant see how people have the nerv askin for that kinda money.
You under value yourself m8, if you have great work and great pricing sure as eggs are eggs it will be more expensive. unless your work is crap as is your pricing, I would not know either as I do not know you are what you do. do you see the point ?
im sayin if it a bog standard round with bog standard prices then it isnt worth anymore than 4x,its jus not,if it a round that has really good prices,compact,good payin custies,and so on,then yeh it worth more. and im not tlkin about sellin a buisness as a whole,im on about sellin individual rounds,and in the north west for a bog standard round u lookin at least 7x and i think that out of order coz its not worth that. iv bin offered a round that brings in £200 a month,prices jus average,and the guy wanted 2k...10x! now if that sounds fair to u guys then u must be out of ur minds,coz ud av to be if u were guna consider buyin it.
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I am one of the few people, on here, that have sold an established round and I can say that it isn't one particular thing, price or quality of work that will get you the sale you want but multiple factors.
I employed a guy who managed my round for two years, he knew what the business was taking and could see the potential. He was married to a succesful business woman (in her own right - family business) and he could see that this was his opportunity to be independant of me and his wifes money.
The round I sold was substantial in takings, very compact, excellent takings - just moved over to cheque payments by addressed envelopes, with a 50% split cash to sent cheques.
He got a 03 reg van and a two man set up, with 300gpd filtration system.
I found myself in a situation where I wanted to sell, I happened to be able to sell to someone who saw the business from the inside and happened to be in the position of buying by cash transfer, for the price I wanted.
I expected to sell for the price I wanted and I got that price. It was not and would never have been anything like two or three cleans. Do not sell yourselves short. If it is good you will find a buyer or they will find you.
Rob ;D
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I am one of the few people, on here, that have sold an established round and I can say that it isn't one particular thing, price or quality of work that will get you the sale you want but multiple factors.
I employed a guy who managed my round for two years, he knew what the business was taking and could see the potential. He was married to a succesful business woman (in her own right - family business) and he could see that this was his opportunity to be independant of me and his wifes money.
The round I sold was substantial in takings, very compact, excellent takings - just moved over to cheque payments by addressed envelopes, with a 50% split cash to sent cheques.
He got a 03 reg van and a two man set up, with 300gpd filtration system.
I found myself in a situation where I wanted to sell, I happened to be able to sell to someone who saw the business from the inside and happened to be in the position of buying by cash transfer, for the price I wanted.
I expected to sell for the price I wanted and I got that price. It was not and would never have been anything like two or three cleans. Do not sell yourselves short. If it is good you will find a buyer or they will find you.
Rob ;D
Good post, I think the buyer was the key to your value. ;)
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If you look at the big monthly cleaning mags you will see most business asking for just less then half of there yearly turnover.
ie, this month there was a cleaning business asking £180k for a £400k turnover,
i know turnover means nothing, but that is the general rule.
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If you look at the big monthly cleaning mags you will see most business asking for just less then half of there yearly turnover.
ie, this month there was a cleaning business asking £180k for a £400k turnover,
i know turnover means nothing, but that is the general rule.
Sorry Dave but what a load of bull, so your saying half the turnover ven though this caould mean a business with 400k could be making 10k, 20 k, 50k or even -20k.
i wouldnt use this as a general rule.
you have contridicting views of selling rounds,u believe that u shunt pay no more than 4x for a round..but u wudnt sell for any less than 7x..jus contridicting. i jus dont see why some people have to be soo greedy,it dus ruin it for other people,and it jus mainly the noth west which is like this,and i think it out of order. my mate got offered a round that brought in jus under 2k a month and the guy wanted 18k for it,my mate jus laffed,i cant see how people have the nerv askin for that kinda money.
You under value yourself m8, if you have great work and great pricing sure as eggs are eggs it will be more expensive. unless your work is crap as is your pricing, I would not know either as I do not know you are what you do. do you see the point ?
im sayin if it a bog standard round with bog standard prices then it isnt worth anymore than 4x,its jus not,if it a round that has really good prices,compact,good payin custies,and so on,then yeh it worth more. and im not tlkin about sellin a buisness as a whole,im on about sellin individual rounds,and in the north west for a bog standard round u lookin at least 7x and i think that out of order coz its not worth that. iv bin offered a round that brings in £200 a month,prices jus average,and the guy wanted 2k...10x! now if that sounds fair to u guys then u must be out of ur minds,coz ud av to be if u were guna consider buyin it.
My god you got a stutter?
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I agree Mac. The round is only worth what someone is willing to pay or can pay but if you try and sell a window cleaning round on here to people that don't think they are worth more than 2 or 3 cleans then you are on a hiding to nothing.
When I get in the same position again I doubt very much it will work out the same and I consider the circumstances exceptional!!!.
I wont sell on here, I will take advice from my accountant - even he was shocked by how much I sold it for!!! and I will visit Business Link and other advisory agents to find the best platform.
I enjoy these posts and do not want to get into an argument but I built my round from nothing and had nothing when I started. The round became a business and gave me the jump to where I am now. I am grateful for how it changed my life and the lifestyle it gave me. I spent 7 years building my work up and it had value, some of which may have been sentimental but clearly it also had value to someone else and it is giving them a very good income now.
I treat every day with my business as the most important day and I am constantly improving. I am dedicated to making what I do the very best and that shows through in how I interact with others, at all levels. I would never intentionally be disrespectful to anyone, whether on a forum or face to face. In all things I am professional and quality will always stand apart.
I have read posts over the last few days that have made me look at people and think if that is how they respond to strangers they have never met, how are they with their customers and how must they run their businesses.
I am probably in the position of being able to buy some of the rounds on here but judging by the peoples attitude selling them I wouldn't touch them.
Rob ;D
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Rob did you have a good holiday i had a couple of pressure washer jobs to quote but you was a way, didnt go ahead due to the weather any way.
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I wont be going back , Jamaicas not the place for me- enough said, though it was lovely and hot!!!!
Can you get back onto the jobs or are they lost??
Rob ;D
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one of them is a small job they did want done before christmas but that couldnt happen so i can do that in the new year.
the other job i got some one to price for me has was quite big and i dont really have the equipment, they said they would leave to the new year but dont know if they didnt like the price...........all though i thought it was reasonabe.
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If you get anymore i'll come and work with you Ronnie. Just want to show off my December suntan!!!!
Have a good Christmas and prosperous New Year
Rob ;D
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you too rob and im sure a opertunity will come up soon and i will look forward to gaining some of your experience.
All the best pal.
have a good christmas and i hope next year brings lots of good work :)
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Ron
Your such a lovely guy arent you, merry xmas to you too as well.
Load of bull ? I was just quoting some figures out of the cleaning mags, in the mags that was the genaral rule of thumb.
If you think i am a liar i will photocopy it for you.
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dave read what you have said, you run a business and by what i see a good one so come on would you but a business off turnver?? so how can you say they sell for half there turnover has a rule????
i could go on many business websites and email you them and show you what you said has being ridiculous.
maybe we should do i post on how many would buy a business for 50% of turnover.
And Dave i am a nice guy thank you. the thing is i say it as it is and many dont like that just like some dont like people bragging about how good there doing :)
by the way there are no hard feelings merry xmas to you
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Ronnie
I am just quoting figures i have seen i have the mag in front of me
1/ cleaning company T/O £150k wants £85k
2/ supplies company T/o £600k wants £400k
3/ Dry cleaners T/O £50k wants £30k
rightly or wrongly there is a general pattern going on, what they ask and what they are achieve are 2 totally unrelated figures.
Have a look at this website www.knightsbridgeplc.com
I would love to sell my business, but i cant see where someone is going to pay me the amount of money to make it justifiable selling.
From my research, I don't think I would achieve 1 years Net Profit.
If someone was to offer me 2 or 3 times I would rip there hand off right now.
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end of the day its known that the general price for an individual round is no more than 4x but sum want more than that,in the north west they want ALOT more than that,that jus how it is and it not gunna change,it isnt right or fair no,but that jus what its like around here. north west obviously dont go of the rule of thumb,they make they own crap up so yeh ;D selling a buisness as a whole not an individual rounds is different.
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Ronnie
I am just quoting figures i have seen i have the mag in front of me
1/ cleaning company T/O £150k wants £85k
2/ supplies company T/o £600k wants £400k
3/ Dry cleaners T/O £50k wants £30k
rightly or wrongly there is a general pattern going on, what they ask and what they are achieve are 2 totally unrelated figures.
Have a look at this website www.knightsbridgeplc.com
I would love to sell my business, but i cant see where someone is going to pay me the amount of money to make it justifiable selling.
From my research, I don't think I would achieve 1 years Net Profit.
If someone was to offer me 2 or 3 times I would rip there hand off right now.
I agree, a very realistic statement. ;)
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Macmac, Dave’s basically saying he would prefer 3 years net profits to even consider selling. ::)
That's what I'm talking about dude, he's realistic enough to realise that would be unlikely. ;)
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Ewan 96000 quid you must be joking and the vans made of gold, 20 t0 30 grand max.
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I must of missed something,
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well were so bad for wanting more wayno some say its realistic othes say were stopping hard working people from working(funnist thing iv ever heard).
I guess we will only know what our business is worth whn we sell it, but then i think a neil wiliams is proof of how much our business are worth.
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How much did Neil sell for in the end ?
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wasnt it about 30 -40 k for a business at that sort of turnover?
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only neil knows the full amount but it was in that catorgory.
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Size and scale of business really do determine selling price. If I had a business turning over £120, 000.00 pa it is very unlikely that I would have any interest in measuring its value based on a multiple of monthly turnovers, more likely that I will be looking at it based on a multiple of annaul profit.
However the potential purchaser is most likely to be basing their investment on the possible returns for their investment, many business people measure the value of an investment on the speed of return.
The business turning over £120k making 20% profit has a rate of return of 5 years at 1 years turnover.
One of the most important factors in buying a business for most is if they can bring improvements to how it operates and increase the profit margin and turnover, this is often more important than the turnover in determining price as it will improve margin.
I would rather a small highly profitable business than a big unprofitable one.
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30-40k sounds fair enuff for a BUISNESS that brings in 5k a month plus 2 vans with full wfp set ups,96k is waaaaayy over the top in my opinion
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i run my ROUNDS has a BUSINESS dont you Wayno ;)
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yeh but if if i was guna sell A(1) round i wudnt sell my van and gear with it...would you? ??? ::) so therefore i wudnt be sellin my BUISNESS..id be selling A round ;) believe it or not,theys a BIG difference ;D
if youve got 3 round for example and u decide to sell ONE,you are not selling your buisness...if you sell all three with all your gear and van...then your selling your buisness...do you get it now or would you like a picture?? :)
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Heres one off that site i put up early, goes along with what i was saying 10 months of net profit.
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WINDOW CLEANING SERVICES
CENTRAL SCOTLAND WT £2,300 GP 88% NP £53k Strong retention Clientele Works from home Bus £45,000
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aaghh so if i sell a van with a round its a business???
a trad window cleaner could run a round /business from any vehicle.
Trust me its more than a van that makes it a business!!!!! ;D
and more than i could taech you ;D
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if you have one round and you sold it with your gear,your selling a buisness,if you have 3 rounds and you sell one,your NOT and i'll repeat it for you,your NOT selling a buisness,your just selling ONE of your rounds,simple to understand,but for sum reason your having dificulty,how much alcohol have you had over christmas??
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Heres one off that site i put up early, goes along with what i was saying 10 months of net profit.
,
WINDOW CLEANING SERVICES
CENTRAL SCOTLAND WT £2,300 GP 88% NP £53k Strong retention Clientele Works from home Bus £45,000
dave did i see something different, i thought i seen you say half of the turnover???
see to me that business is a bargain and i would be asking why is he selling???
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Ron
If you look it equates to about half the turnover too
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if you have one round and you sold it with your gear,your selling a buisness,if you have 3 rounds and you sell one,your NOT and i'll repeat it for you,your NOT selling a buisness,your just selling ONE of your rounds,simple to understand,but for sum reason for having dificulty,how much alcohol have you had over christmas??
[/quote/]
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right so if i sell my rounds with a some trad tools its a business????
your more foolish than i thought. saying that you do think someone is ripping a buyer off if they demand the most for there business/round ;D
what did you say your buiness was called
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dave
but the two statements are miles apart, 10 x monthly profit and half the turnover could mean so much different if the profi is 20%???
if your trying to prove a point its wasted i could go and look up many business that sold for way more than 10 monthly profit but i dont need too.
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i jus think that selling a average round for 7-10x is out of order and alot of people agree with that,selling a buisness with a van and gear and everythin already set up and ready,then yeh u can ask for more coz it worth more,but individual average rounds are not worth more than 4x. that is what i and alot of other people think and agree with and it tends to be just the north west that dont agree with that,which is what i bin sayin all along,its not difficult to understand.
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so people are out of order if they want to sell there business for more than 4 x.......why???
its there round they put the hard work and they know the value for you or any one else to say there out of order is ridiculous, its not your round to value or dictate the price and that is simple.
i think if you build a round and put the sweat and tears in you may understand why people sell for more.
Here is another scenario Ian Lancasters franchise, he gets 10k i think plus 20 % of all work so many people will think thats mad but guess what, its been a success!!!!
shall i tell you why he knows how much hard work it tkes to build and maintain a round he can sell that to intrested parties, some say its stupid and they would never do it just like getting 1.5-2.5 gross profit for the business.
But with that mentallity it wouldnt be possible would it....................
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selling one of your rounds is NOT selling your buisness man! sweat and tears,i can understand the sweat from working,but tears?...do u fall of your ladders alot? ???
its jus people in the north west...the rule of thumb for selling A round is no more than 4x,a buisness as a whole a little more,but in the north west they jus want more coz they greedy,simple.
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Ronnie
I am not trying to prove any point , i am just pointingout the obvious.
Most businesses I see are selling for half, the annual turnover, even though it means nothing, it is just a general observation, coincidently the business i have quoted is for sale for
1, it is for sale for roughly half its annual turnover
2, it is for sale for roughly 10 months net profit
It is not the be all and end all, it is just half the cleaning firms for sale could fit into one of those categorys, some even fit into both.
It doesnt mean that all business fall into that category.
It doesnt mean I am advocating any way.
I am just pointing out my observations
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Ronnie
He gets 10 %
and I dont think he gets £10k
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he doesnt get 10 percent its 20% ::)
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He told me 10% ::)
;D
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selling one of your rounds is NOT selling your buisness man! sweat and tears,i can understand the sweat from working,but tears?...do u fall of your ladders alot? ???
its jus people in the north west...the rule of thumb for selling A round is no more than 4x,a buisness as a whole a little more,but in the north west they jus want more coz they greedy,simple.
were greedy for selling ur business/round for more than 4 x ?? its theres to sell so who are you to say there greedy.
you wouldnt know what sweat and tears are you buy you rounds cause you cant build one, and you get them for next to nothing.
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Sender: Ian Lancaster
To: Ronnie Paton
Subject: Re: franchise
Date: Jan 14th, 2009, 4:18pm
Ronnie Paton wrote on Jan 13th, 2009, 7:07pm:
so if you guarentee the work you replace it once its lost?? doe the franchise price depend on the work you provide them with?? how do you find the time to train them for a week?? and finally how do you go about training some one from scratch??
sorry for all the questions.
The 20% royalty is high, because we provide the work, that's part of what they're paying for.
this is what i was told. ::)
;D
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Hi Ronnie,
I wouldn't make an issue out of this as it's not really any of our business and probably confidential.
Reading what both you and dave say it is highly likely that you are both right.As an ongoing franchise fee 10% sounds more likely, as part of a franchise purchase agreement 20% is more likely. Some may have stumped up a larger upfront fee than others etc.Whichever it is, it's not really fair of us to bandy his business about, and i'm sure we all wish him good luck.
The general point that our businesses are worth more than we tend to get for them is true.The best exit strategy seems to be either Ian's model, or like Dave set the firm up so you have hardly anything to do apart from direct staff and are virtually semi retired. ;D
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finding the buyer is the hard bit, lots of people have 20k to 500k and would buy a biz tomorrow if it was a cert, but the process of due diligence is hard.You may for example ewan, be able to size a round up because you have experience in the sector, but you might also want it cheaper than this.
If you take this thread topic the guy asked for a value, he gave us some details t/o etc, two small vans, 30 mile radius, but he didn't tell us how many men, or if one was a partner or a senior employee.Much of this particular round value i suspect would be paid out in wages.I couldn't even understand why on such a small turnover had he been ltd for the past four years?
The popularity of franchises such as molly maid (cleaning) rely on the fact that people think they are buying a managment franchise- which is yet another aspect. Not many on this forum believe a wc biz can be run without some kind of physical involvement and this has an effect on value too.
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yes ewan, but the problem is that most of us can work well even with a helper who is not great, or even a couple of guys who need watching.But to walk away completely we need better quality employees who inevitably expect to be paid more.
So if you do build a fab money machine based on pasties and doughnuts instead of proper wages the real value may never be achieved.
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When your are buying a Round/Busines. Your are not buying the round/busines, you are buying the good will that the previouse cleaner suppied. If that last person was not reguler, got complaints, not doing a good job, scruffy, different cleaners everytime they cleaned. I would question the price they were asking. Go around with the guy you are buying the round off and intoduce/find out, if the guy is genuine. Tam
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Tam
Not all businesses are domestic, my customers dont give a damn who has cleaned there windows as long as they are clean.
As some people have pointed out there is a vast difference between a round and a business.
If i wasnt regular or got complaints my business growth would be hampered and that would be reflected in what my business could achieve.
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Hi Guys
3 years ago we were going to buy a commercial window cleaning business
in London that turned over £325,000 per year.
All the work was top quality commercial and all staffed out. All we would have had to do is change the name on the invoice.
We came within one week of paying the money when the owner changed his mind (he was going to live in Spain)
We were going to pay £175,00 for the work. Which is probably more than it was worth as a stand alone business, but for us it would have been a great buy as it fitted in with all our other contracts and we would have earned the money back in a short period
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yes ewan, but the problem is that most of us can work well even with a helper who is not great, or even a couple of guys who need watching.But to walk away completely we need better quality employees who inevitably expect to be paid more.
So if you do build a fab money machine based on pasties and doughnuts instead of proper wages the real value may never be achieved.
The quality of staff is rarely an issue, it is the quality of management that counts imo
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I'd hate to have to make calls like d woods, i wouldn't sleep....If i got it right i'd be over excited and continually talking about it, and if i got it wrong i'd be gutted.
Bluez, staff makes a difference when you only have a couple.Do they regard themselves as some kind of partner? do they feel they are being sold too as part of the fittings?. The point was that the origninal poster didn't give any insight into this.He gave turn over, the fact that he was limited and had two small vans, and worked within a thirty mile perimeter.What i was suggesting was that the value would be affected by how many people were needed to operate this and how they were structured (ie, was there a partner, or a trusted guy who had to be paid well to work unsupervised etc- because a turnover of 60k doesn't look too good once two good wages are taken out)
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selling one of your rounds is NOT selling your buisness man! sweat and tears,i can understand the sweat from working,but tears?...do u fall of your ladders alot? ???
its jus people in the north west...the rule of thumb for selling A round is no more than 4x,a buisness as a whole a little more,but in the north west they jus want more coz they greedy,simple.
were greedy for selling ur business/round for more than 4 x ?? its theres to sell so who are you to say there greedy.
you wouldnt know what sweat and tears are you buy you rounds cause you cant build one, and you get them for next to nothing.
i know its theres to sell,but askin for 7-10x for a bog standard round is greedy to me and alot of other people coz that is waaay over the rule ofthumb for selling and buyin rounds!
and i have built up my work alot actuallyand i know what involved,after new year im doin a big canvass on this street with leaflets and my buisness cards,as long as ur confident its not that hard to knock on the doors and pick up work,ur making it out like window cleaning is really difficult wen really its not as long as u know what ur doin,but hey,its a difference of opinion,alot of people will agree with me,and people will agreewith u so,whatever trever! ;D lol
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I'd hate to have to make calls like d woods, i wouldn't sleep....If i got it right i'd be over excited and continually talking about it, and if i got it wrong i'd be gutted.
Bluez, staff makes a difference when you only have a couple.Do they regard themselves as some kind of partner? do they feel they are being sold too as part of the fittings?. The point was that the origninal poster didn't give any insight into this.He gave turn over, the fact that he was limited and had two small vans, and worked within a thirty mile perimeter.What i was suggesting was that the value would be affected by how many people were needed to operate this and how they were structured (ie, was there a partner, or a trusted guy who had to be paid well to work unsupervised etc- because a turnover of 60k doesn't look too good once two good wages are taken out)
Slump
You need to read the post I quoted for the relevence of the point.
Of course you are correct when selling a business with staff they will have concerns and issues but my point was in relation to running a business with staff as addressed by the post I quoted not about selling a business with staff or about the original posters question.
In answer to the OP's question, price as high as you can while still having a chance of attracting a serious buyer. No one will offer you more than you ask for so give it every chance.
Sounds like a decent business to me based on the available info.
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i dont think that bad staff is always a management problem, its a management responsibilty to get the best out of staff yeah, but they had to be something there in the 1st place to encourage, othewise why bother interviewing etc just get anyone and hope they will be okay
On the subject of rounds i would sell any of my work at 10 x monthly
Why not?
as a business? not so sure
i have thought about selling in a few years and using the money to change careers.
hypothetically if i have a business that has pre tax profits at around 50 k maybe just over, turnover at 67000 (just under vat)
sell with van and system i would expect 50 k easy!
where else could someone walk into a 1k a week business??
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i dont think that bad staff is always a management problem, its a management responsibilty to get the best out of staff yeah, but they had to be something there in the 1st place to encourage, othewise why bother interviewing etc just get anyone and hope they will be okay
On the subject of rounds i would sell any of my work at 10 x monthly
Why not?
as a business? not so sure
i have thought about selling in a few years and using the money to change careers.
hypothetically if i have a business that has pre tax profits at around 50 k maybe just over, turnover at 67000 (just under vat)
sell with van and system i would expect 50 k easy!
where else could someone walk into a 1k a week business??
Sorry to disagree with you Sean but Bad staff is always a management issue, if you have bad staff, get rid. Average staff on the other hand can be problematic as they dont always give valid reasons to dismiss them and you can get stuck with them for a longer period of time.
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Sorry for trying to address the original topic bluez when your thoughts though totally irrelevant seem far more interesting to you.
This business can not be valued without the information about staff, or at least some information about staff.He has two small vans, does he drive them both himself?, or has he including himeself two two man teams in each vehicle?
And why with such a small turnover is he limited?
Trying to sell a biz/ round is fine, but realistic questions will be asked to help determine the value.
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Sorry for trying to address the original topic bluez when your thoughts though totally irrelevant seem far more interesting to you.
This business can not be valued without the information about staff, or at least some information about staff.He has two small vans, does he drive them both himself?, or has he including himeself two two man teams in each vehicle?
And why with such a small turnover is he limited?
Trying to sell a biz/ round is fine, but realistic questions will be asked to help determine the value.
Thats a rather odd thing to post Slump, as you are right my post had little to do directly with the original question but had in fact to do with your reference to staff and exit strategy which I quoted, should I have ignored the post you made? perhaps my post count would be higher if I did just post thoughts I found much more interesting to me ;D!
You will notice that I addressed the original question at a later point when I had considered other peoples opinions and decided if I had something worth adding to the question asked.
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I get cheesed off with the forum too for different reasons.It used to be the negativity and the attacks, but that happens less now.The newbs have more vision, but there are only so many times you can read; i'm hoping to buy a system next year and expand......This time of year many would post what they had achieved and what they had planned but much of that has gone too. It's become a very tame forum, full of newbs and cosy old timers.
I have put some very interesting stuff up that doesn't even get replied too.Electric reels- don't care.New scudo 1200kg van-don't care.New employee doughnut motivation programme-don't care.Longest self install hot user on the forum- don't care.Brilliant innovational marketing strategy-don't care.
So like you bluez my posting libido is very limp.
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I posted some interesting stuff recently Slumpy about the mottled colouring of South-Chilean Flamingo eggs that hatch in the spring compared to those of the infamous Brazilian Grey Flamingo, better known for its soft, alluring plumage and leathery feet.
I know what you mean, theres some right boring people on here, no-one replied to my thread.
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i dont think that bad staff is always a management problem, its a management responsibilty to get the best out of staff yeah, but they had to be something there in the 1st place to encourage, othewise why bother interviewing etc just get anyone and hope they will be okay
On the subject of rounds i would sell any of my work at 10 x monthly
Why not?
as a business? not so sure
i have thought about selling in a few years and using the money to change careers.
hypothetically if i have a business that has pre tax profits at around 50 k maybe just over, turnover at 67000 (just under vat)
sell with van and system i would expect 50 k easy!
where else could someone walk into a 1k a week business??
Sorry to disagree with you Sean but Bad staff is always a management issue, if you have bad staff, get rid. Average staff on the other hand can be problematic as they dont always give valid reasons to dismiss them and you can get stuck with them for a longer period of time.
The quality of staff is rarely an issue, it is the quality of management that counts imo
your quote i was addressing to say that bad staff shouldnt be managed they shouldnt be there in the first place!
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spot on sean im with you there
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I posted some interesting stuff recently Slumpy about the mottled colouring of South-Chilean Flamingo eggs that hatch in the spring compared to those of the infamous Brazilian Grey Flamingo, better known for its soft, alluring plumage and leathery feet.
I know what you mean, theres some right boring people on here, no-one replied to my thread.
yes but did you know that the additive that Heinz put in their chicken soup is so powerful that if you was to put just half a teaspoon of it into an olympic swimming pool it would taste of chicken soup within a matter of seconds and not a lot of people know that 8)
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if anyone thinks the forum is boring then u know what to do!either add something interesting or log off and go and do something else more meaningful and enjoyable!chiefly i came on this site as i was curious about other peoples businesses in window cleaning and thats it really!ive enjoyed the different ideas/tips on how to improve etc.i certainly dont take it all too seriously!its helped me a lot in my attitude to my work/business and i thank all the informative posters and clowns.but its only window cleaning!! ;D ;D.it can be a lonely job when ur working as a one man band for years and i feel this forum esp has helped me realise that im not on my own and we can exchange ideas/tips and banter that inspire me to carry on and improve!
best wishes to everyone
dazmond
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if anyone thinks the forum is boring then u know what to do!either add something interesting or log off and go and do something else more meaningful and enjoyable!chiefly i came on this site as i was curious about other peoples businesses in window cleaning and thats it really!ive enjoyed the different ideas/tips on how to improve etc.i certainly dont take it all too seriously!its helped me a lot in my attitude to my work/business and i thank all the informative posters and clowns.but its only window cleaning!! ;D ;D.it can be a lonely job when ur working as a one man band for years and i feel this forum esp has helped me realise that im not on my own and we can exchange ideas/tips and banter that inspire me to carry on and improve!
best wishes to everyone
dazmond
In the words of meatloaf- You took the words right out of my mouth!! ;) ;) ;)
Or was it- I'd do anything for love but I won't get excited about electric reels! ;D