Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: BVC on December 02, 2009, 04:44:43 pm
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Hi guys, not totally decided yet but thinking of selling my business>
I have around 11k every 4 wks. 10% of which is commercial. average domestic job price is £22.
mixed wfp and trad. family business been going about 25yrs. still growing. all in a 15mile radius.
website and lots of stationary. too much extra info to list.
Loads of lovely jobs.
Myself and one other chap earn around £70 per hr min together.
I sub some other work out.
How much do you lot think its worth??
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Hi guys, not totally decided yet but thinking of selling my business>
I have around 11k every 4 wks. 10% of which is commercial. average domestic job price is £22.
mixed wfp and trad. family business been going about 25yrs. still growing. all in a 15mile radius.
website and lots of stationary. too much extra info to list.
Loads of lovely jobs.
Myself and one other chap earn around £70 per hr min together.
I sub some other work out.
How much do you lot think its worth??
What area is it in ?
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You will get many replies - I would talk to an accountant.
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You will get many replies - I would talk to an accountant.
yeah theres a lot of guys on here that havent got a clue what there talking about 2x 3x 10x monthly takings etc
on a serious note i will give you a tenner for it
pj ;D >:(
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Pop it on e-bay, could even get a hundred pound at a push ;)
In all honesty mate, that is one he'll of a business so I would take some profesional advice but I would think if I were you I'd start the bidding at about £150k
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bvc
without teaching my granny to suck eggs point one is that you need to sell the brand, whatever that is because it is worth more, and point two the people with the dough to buy this will proably not want to work it themselves and that introduces a risk element.
Your biz is worth 10 times annual profit.
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just read your old posts either you have grown very rapidly or the work isnt as good as you say as your earnings on lasts years posts where about 30k ??? ???
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Have a look at windowcleaning resources they advertise business for sale :)
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bvc
without teaching my granny to suck eggs point one is that you need to sell the brand, whatever that is because it is worth more, and point two the people with the dough to buy this will proably not want to work it themselves and that introduces a risk element.
Your biz is worth 10 times annual profit.
10 times annual profit i dont think so ;D ;D but if that is the case i would sell tomorrow and retire.
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10 TIME YOUR ANNUAL PROFIT DREAM ON MATE.SLUMPY WHAT ARE YOU ON MATE.2.5 may be 3 times TIMES THATS IT+ assets.
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dean tab wud snap yr ar,m off esp if it on the ,moon 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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10 TIME YOUR ANNUAL PROFIT DREAM ON MATE.SLUMPY WHAT ARE YOU ON MATE.2.5 may be 3 times TIMES THATS IT+ assets.
I think he means 10x monthly, also I think 2.5x or 3x is way too low, look how long its taken you to get your work, would you honestly sell that for 3x I doubt it, id say minimum 5x,
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£22 average - jeez you must be only doin the big houses then ? what van have u guys got ?
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I reckon it's worth around £60k+ The problem you may have is finding someone to pay that. Then there's the VAT to think about..
Likely someone would need to get a business bank loan for that kind of amount so the good thing is you'd get all your money straight away and they'd have to be committed to making it work to get their money back.
They'd probably be looking at around £1,200 a month to pay a loan of £60,000 back over 5 years.
If you have a good rapport with your present subbies have you thought about renting or subbing it all out?
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£22 average - jeez you must be only doin the big houses then ? what van have u guys got ?
I'm interested in this.What van and what size/type system?
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Why would vat be an issue ?
£140k turnover would give you about £80k net profit.
So I would say £60 - £120k depending on who you could get interested in buying it.
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scratch that an escort and back packs?Not being a snob here but you're not geared to 70ph.
Reading some of your back posts though hat's off you are a smart guy even if you do mention 200 as being a good 'un. ;D
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Hi guys, not totally decided yet but thinking of selling my business>
I have around 11k every 4 wks. 10% of which is commercial. average domestic job price is £22.
mixed wfp and trad. family business been going about 25yrs. still growing. all in a 15mile radius.
website and lots of stationary. too much extra info to list.
Loads of lovely jobs.
Myself and one other chap earn around £70 per hr min together.
I sub some other work out.
How much do you lot think its worth??
Vat registered? should be on tover figures. in which case what is the prfoit etc, how many men/vans? just the 2 of you ??
All that would be the details the selling price would be dictated by
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Sean
My figures wont be far wrong
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Why would vat be an issue ?
£11,000 between two of them works out at £5,500 each if they split it. 90% domestic work - I'm guessing but they are likely trying to stay under the VAT threshold.
Selling the business would mean that they'd step over the threshold so they'd have to think about registering and adding the VAT.
(in which case the loan repayment figures etc. I mentioned earlier would be higher with the VAT)
PS Dave you have mail
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I dont seem to be receiving emails today , anyone else having problems
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lots of problems just not email ones ;D
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He may mean 11k anual & the work is done 4 weekly?
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Sean
My figures wont be far wrong
if its 2 men then fair enough is it a partnership and they are puttin in there own return for half the money each?
If so if one man buys they have headache of employing and going vat registered over night
Plus the vat will be going out of the profit as its 90% residential and already at high prices so you couldnt really hit them for it
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I wouldn't buy it. As the above posts speculate a lot of inconsistencies.Family biz 25yrs great, two men £70 ph even better, but it starts to fall down with the escort van and the back pack.For a value of 60k or above the due diligence required would look at these matters including vat thresholds.It may be that this is unsellable.
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Can't see where the fear of vat comes in, in business over £68k it becomes a fact of life, just as much as the air you breathe.
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Indeed. Vat isn't the problem,its the higher earning income tax bracket that would bother me. The tax on his yearly turnover would be circa 50k. Add on top of that overheads and it doesn't look like such a lucrative business. His turnover may well be 11k per month,but what is the net profit?
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The fear is that the guy turning over 61k is better off than the guy turning over 69k because 7k is suddenly gobbled in tax. To be better off a turnover of 90k is needed, and this gulf between 60 and 90 is a big one.
But in this instance although the figures were very high the impression was that this was not above the threshold and therefore any buyer would be wary of this. Not scared of a biz that qualified but wary of one that seemed to meet the criteria but wasn't.
Yes and what luther says.
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I still cant see your fears over vat, where you get £50k tax bill is beyond me.
£7k isnt swallowed up, you can claim back all your tax on all your bought goods.
unless you are actually vat registered it is hard for you to undersrtand.
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Paying 40% tax on earnings over £34,800 would mean his tax on £100,000 above that would be £40,000 and the basic rate of 20% below the £34,800. Less overheads i know. Any decent account who sees those earnings would tell you to spend some money. An L reg Escort? Something doesn't stack up.
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I still cant see your fears over vat, where you get £50k tax bill is beyond me.
£7k isnt swallowed up, you can claim back all your tax on all your bought goods.
unless you are actually vat registered it is hard for you to undersrtand.
so a turnover of 11k every 4 weeks which = 1925.00 in vat alone every 4 weeks
and you can claim that back ? which means your spending would have to equal your income to claim back the same amount!
Theres no fear there dave just the fact that it isnt as simple as "o buy my round its 11k every 4 weeks"
The buyer would have many things to consider ie a huge vat bill every 3 months!
I am not afraid of vat but unless you are really going to cane past the vat limit it is not worth earning 70, 000 and losing vat when you can do just under and make a good profit
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If you earn't £140,000 per year, your tax bill would be £45,930. National insurance on top of that too.
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I wouldn't want to pay the accountants bill on those earnings.
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Paying 40% tax on earnings over £34,800 would mean his tax on £100,000 above that would be £40,000 and the basic rate of 20% below the £34,800. Less overheads i know. Any decent account who sees those earnings would tell you to spend some money. An L reg Escort? Something doesn't stack up.
ageing van - this would throw the tax man etc off his trail ,could be true
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ignore all previous posts, this has been posted on my mates cleanitup account.
i rent nearly half the round out (at a profit of 12k pa) and do about 7k with one other chap who invoices me for all work done. I have a kangoo and an escort van, and work pretty damn fast 3-4 days per week. my wife and i run the business as partners
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What area are you in?
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east anglia
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have you a white Y reg van, working near to Nacton road this morning ? it was chilly today eh !!! ;D
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£140 k isnt the wage, that is the turnover, the wage would be about £65 k on that amount of turnover.
Even if £140k was the wage, it still is attractive despite the tax
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As we are yet to find out what the expenses/overheads are and how much he wants for it then how can it be attractive when all the bottom line figures are conjecture?
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dave has im vat registered i guess im allowed to comment ;)
Vat is scary simple reason for is its difficult to add vat to all your customers ie residential non profit comanys like residents associations, this in turns means your profits are reduced.
two men in a escort van with a back pack doing a 11k aweek i would like to see that(im doubting all together though).
Now if its a business sold has a business we accounts company name ect ect it would be worth a lot but if it was a real company it would of already been vat registered.
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ignore all previous posts, this has been posted on my mates cleanitup account.
i rent nearly half the round out (at a profit of 12k pa) and do about 7k with one other chap who invoices me for all work done. I have a kangoo and an escort van, and work pretty damn fast 3-4 days per week. my wife and i run the business as partners
???im confused
how much does it make ?? bottom line!
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Man!!!!!! You guys take life to seriously. ;) 2 of us do £500 a day 16 days a month. With ladders and a couple of backpacks for dangerous windows in an R reg van. I also rent a couple of grand out to a friend. Nice, compact country work. Where's the problem? All above board, we aren't crooks and we pay our taxes.
I have used van mount and backpacks. I dont understand the big issue. They are both good. You can easily earn decent money with the packs.
If you think out of the box, or speak to a proper accountant you will see you dont have to be vat registered. I will not elaborate on that statement, so dont bother asking. Speak to an accountant. :)
Just wondered what you thought it was worth. I can think of much better ways of boosting my ego than lying about my round on a forum.
Im not trying to be smart or clever. I go to work and I work hard. Then I go home!
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Sorry.
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if you and your wife are partners then it doesnt matter this post proves what your doing is illegal think its could some thing seperation??
not my problem though if you get caught your fooked if not well done.
the thing is there are lots of people willing to give advise on getting out of paying vat but in the end its not them taking the risk!
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nex time i see yer kangoo,will give u a toot , ;D do ur mates drive a red merc car
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Polish where staff are involved you would probably be working on 50% net profit
As with the vat situation, if the vat man doesnt write to you, you can assume what you are doing is ok.
If he thought you were pulling a fast one he would come after you straight away, not a year down the line.
I rang the vat office a while back as i was thinking of splitting my domestics and forming a vat free domestic business, they told me it was OK to do so.
there are a lot of myths where the vat man is concerned, the only way to find out is to phone them direct yourself
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Polish where staff are involved you would probably be working on 50% net profit
As with the vat situation, if the vat man doesnt write to you, you can assume what you are doing is ok.
If he thought you were pulling a fast one he would come after you straight away, not a year down the line.
I rang the vat office a while back as i was thinking of splitting my domestics and forming a vat free domestic business, they told me it was OK to do so.
there are a lot of myths where the vat man is concerned, the only way to find out is to phone them direct yourself
It goes to show that a lot of people "facts or knowledge" on here is actually only opinion.
Not yours Btw.
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Polish where staff are involved you would probably be working on 50% net profit
As with the vat situation, if the vat man doesnt write to you, you can assume what you are doing is ok.
If he thought you were pulling a fast one he would come after you straight away, not a year down the line.
I rang the vat office a while back as i was thinking of splitting my domestics and forming a vat free domestic business, they told me it was OK to do so.
there are a lot of myths where the vat man is concerned, the only way to find out is to phone them direct yourself
Dave, thats is SO wrong mate!!! VAT is simple to work but very calculated and any errors are down to the business not the VAT man! You are left alone as they have so many companies to look at, but the rule of thumb is within 7 Years you should get an inspection, and when they come knocking if its all wrong you are in deep s**t as along the way you should have been seeking advice from your accountant, at the end of the day if its still wrong its YOUR FAULT!
Splitting your business is an option, but again be very careful, dont think the IR and VAT have never seen anyone try this before as they have, as long as your offices are seperate, business owned seperatley, telephones the whole lot you may be ok, but if your using the same employees to do the work be VERY careful mate, would hate to see all your hard work go up in smoke!!!
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Splitting your business is an option, but again be very careful, dont think the IR and VAT have never seen anyone try this before as they have, as long as your offices are seperate, business owned seperatley, telephones the whole lot you may be ok, but if your using the same employees to do the work be VERY careful mate, would hate to see all your hard work go up in smoke!!!
That's also what I was told Trevor. They have to be two totally (in every sense) seperate businesses. They will come down like a ton of bricks on you otherwise!!
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Trev
What I was trying to say was, if the VAT man can see you operating 2 similar companies, he will decide straight away if he will allow it to continue. They told me this on the phone, I went into great lengths with them and they explained everything.
When you first apply for Vat he looks at all your tax accounts.
I didnt go throught with it myself as the admin wasnt worth the tax saving, as you explained in the second part of your post, there is a lot of boxes to tick, some get by this by legit means which is a topic in itself
the best advice i always give people is dont speculate, just pick up the phone.
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In case I have caused any confusion, see below what I was trying to say.
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the following are examples of when "HMRC would at least " make further enquiries:
■Separate entities supply registered and unregistered customers
In this type of separation, the registered entity supplies any registered customers and the unregistered part supplies unregistered customers.
■Same equipment/premises used by different entities on a regular basis
In this type of situation, a series of entities operates the same equipment and/or premises for a set period in any one-week or month. Generally the premises and/or equipment is owned by one of the parties who charges rent to the others. This situation may occur in launderettes and take-aways such as fish and chip shops or mobile catering equipment such as ice cream vans.
■Splitting up of what is usually a single supply
This type of separation is common in the bed and breakfast trade where one entity supplies the bed and another the breakfast. Another is in the livery trade where one entity supplies the stabling and another, the hay to feed the animals.
■Artificially separated businesses which maintain the appearance of a single business
This type of separation includes pubs in which the bar and catering may be artificially separated. In most cases the customer will consider the food and the drinks as bought from the pub and not from two independent businesses. The relationship between the parties in such circumstances will be important here as truly franchised "shop within a shop" arrangements will not normally be considered artificial.
■One person has a controlling influence in a number of entities which all make the same type of supply in diverse locations
In this type of separation a number of outlets which make the same type of supplies are run by separate companies which are under the control of the same person. Although this is not as frequently encountered as some of the other situations, the resulting tax loss may be significant.
top ^13.6 The meaning of financial, economic and organisational links
Again each case will depend on its specific circumstances. The following examples illustrate the types of factors indicative of the necessary links, although there will be many others:
Financial links
■financial support given by one part to another part;
■one part would not be financially viable without support from another part;
■•common financial interest in the proceeds of the business.
Economic links
■seeking to realise the same economic objective;
■the activities of one part benefit the other part;
■supplying the same circle of customers.
Organisational links
■common management;
■common employees;
■common premises;
■common equipment.
top ^13.7 How the measure will apply in particular circumstances
■Franchised businesses
HMRC do not expect this measure to affect genuine, as opposed to artificial, franchising.
■Hairdressers
The existing agreement between the National Hairdressers Federation and HMRC is used to determine whether or not a stylist working in a salon is an employee or a self-employed person. The new measure applies only to self-employed persons. HMRC will amalgamate those self-employed stylists who are artificially separated provided that the legal criteria are met.
■Self employed taxi drivers
The ways in which taxi firms operate can vary. Only those firms, which operate in such a way that the legal criteria are met, will be registered by HMRC as a single business.
■Businesses already registered for VAT
The measures enable HMRC to register businesses which otherwise would not be registered for VAT. Consequently HMRC will not use their powers to amalgamate when all of the parties involved are already VAT registered. However, where the powers are invoked, existing registrations will be cancelled from a current date and the newly amalgamated businesses will be registered with a new number.
■Registration date for amalgamated businesses
When HMRC invoke the measures, the liability to be registered as a single business will take effect from the date of the direction, or such later date as may be specified in the direction.
■Penalties
The new measures do not introduce any fresh penalty provisions. However, should artificial separation continue as a means of avoiding VAT, the position on penalties will be reconsidered.
■Appeals
Businesses, which disagree with HMRC’s decision, will be able to appeal to the VAT and duties tribunal.
The basis of the Tribunal’s decision will continue to be whether HMRC could reasonably have been satisfied that there were grounds for treating all the separated parts as a single taxable person, given the legal criteria and the purpose of the legislation.
top ^13.8 Advice on proposed separations
It is a matter for the parties concerned, after due consideration of all the relevant factors, to determine how to structure their business activities. Accordingly HMRC will not advise on the VAT consequences of any proposed structure" but we will give a decision when faced with an actual situation".