Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Martin ccs on November 16, 2009, 02:09:42 pm
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i think you really need good trad skills before you go off with a wfp system.
this bloke made me laugh, he had to turn down some of his customers who wanted there insides cleaned because he couldnt do it - he did know how and didnt even have the kit!
never mind having a top wfp system or a brand new van i said to him!
surely a good smart look (clothing wise) and a good understanding of trad skills are the basics needed to make some good money.
anyone agree?
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yes
although i know someone who subs me to clean insides trad.
However its not that they can't its just they can't be bothered and earn more money per hour using wfp exclusively.
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I look on trad as serving my apretaship, once I've built up my round to a certain level and have an incom that I can justify spending money on even a basic system then I'll think about it. There are pros and cons to both methods but you should at least take the time to learn trad before shelling out hundreds or thousands of pounds on a wfp system.
Just my opinion ;)
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Very true.
I think all window cleaners should have at least a little understanding of traditional window cleaning methods first.
Here, here.
Kind regards. :)
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yes
although i know someone who subs me to clean insides trad.
However its not that they can't its just they can't be bothered and earn more money per hour using wfp exclusively.
A lot of people just start up with WFP, and know absalutely naff all about the window cleaning trade in general!!
They see a water fed pole in operation and think that looks easy.
I had a lad work for me back in 2005 and he said he had experience, he didnt last the first day!!
he then told me he thought it was very easy, to which I replied if it was that easy, don't you think EVERYONE would be doing it.
I told him WE make it look easy as we do it day in day out.
Matt
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yes
although i know someone who subs me to clean insides trad.
However its not that they can't its just they can't be bothered and earn more money per hour using wfp exclusively.
A lot of people just start up with WFP, and know absalutely naff all about the window cleaning trade in general!!
They see a water fed pole in operation and think that looks easy.
I had a lad work for me back in 2005 and he said he had experience, he didnt last the first day!!
he then told me he thought it was very easy, to which I replied if it was that easy, don't you think EVERYONE would be doing it.
I told him WE make it look easy as we do it day in day out.
Matt
some customers do it to! they see you clean there windows on the inside by trad style and they say whats in your bucket?, so i just tell them the truth - its just fairy. they then say where can i get one of those from from? as in your trad kit.
they seem to think now they know the special magical secret to window cleaning its going to be so easy.
why is it some customers think its top secret info as to what we use in our bucket?
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I have to disagree...trad skills are not exactly rocket science...why does everyone place these skills upon some sort of throne...
I certainly do not think that they are some sort of level that must be passed prior to continuing on with wfp..
I get the ol squeegy a couple of times a week but even if I was'nt that good and trust me I am not that fast is not a great barrier.
3 years I have built a good round with plenty of time off and plenty of scope for improvement...my lack of speed and occasional sloppy techniques have not prevented our business from growing and increasing year by year.
IMHO too many folk place trad on a pedistal..it's just another tool.
Cheers
Dave
no offence intended to anyone.
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if you had to clean a big commercial property indoors you would wish you were good with trad
:)
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I would employ a few good Polish/Romanian/Turk guys to do the insides and I would do the outs...it is all about using the right tool for the job.
Trad is not king and niether is wfp...just tools to clean windows.
Cheers
Dave.
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i wouldnt call turks a bunch of tools :o :o
;D
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employ a few good Polish/Romanian/Turk guys.... it is all about using the right tool for the job.
That creased me up Pingu BIG TIME !!!
Im crap at trad so i price high.... had one person say no so its all good
I could do with more practise though
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rofl
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i think there is a few on here that dont use trad at all.thats fine by me.if they can build a good cleaning business without trad skills fair enough.lets be honest here!wfp is quicker and does a more thorough job doesnt it?plus a lot safer.ive been trad for 15 yrs and im v.fast and competent but im going to try WFP next year.see what all the fuss is about!
best wishes to everyone
dazmond
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I would employ a few good Polish/Romanian/Turk guys to do the insides and I would do the outs...it is all about using the right tool for the job.
Trad is not king and niether is wfp...just tools to clean windows.
Cheers
Dave.
i think you should have a good level of trad skills! its after all only the basics of window cleaning. it should be the first thing you learn imo anyway.
what would you do if your system was out of action for a while, go around doing sloppy window cleaning?
i think if there was a poll on this most would say trad skills are important.
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Ladder skills are probably more important. ;)
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what would you do if your system was out of action for a while, go around doing sloppy window cleaning?
Get the backpack and 25L containers out of semi retirement.... thats what id do
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what would you do if your system was out of action for a while, go around doing sloppy window cleaning?
Get the backpack and 25L containers out of semi retirement.... thats what id do
so you cleary are only a small business then?
if you had to do a massive hotel or school or hospital, you cant just find someone to do it for you evey time.
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I would employ a few good Polish/Romanian/Turk guys to do the insides and I would do the outs...it is all about using the right tool for the job.
Trad is not king and niether is wfp...just tools to clean windows.
Cheers
Dave.
Why Polish, Romanian or Turks??? Are the homegrown lads not good enough. This is our countrys downfall!!!
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hes in holland i think dude :)
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what would you do if your system was out of action for a while, go around doing sloppy window cleaning?
Get the backpack and 25L containers out of semi retirement.... thats what id do
so you cleary are only a small business then?
if you had to do a massive hotel or school or hospital, you cant just find someone to do it for you evey time.
What ive said is that i have a backup should my van system fail on me.
You didnt ask what size business
And if it came to it i would sub out to those who climb the ladders. Oh sorry i do that already
I am wfp for my safety and my wife and kids future
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what can go wrong really...most things I carry spares... if a pole were to break I would use another...there is not really alot that can go wrong...if my pump goes...the trolley would work if the trolly broke the backpack would work..if the 4040 went south the 300gpd would work...if the van broke down I would'nt be working any how or I could just rent/hire another vech...if a tank split...the 650litre holding tank would be used...cannot think of much else really... you?
I generall carry 2 years worth of spares/comsumables resin/filters, fittings, hose reason I live in Holland and have it shipped from UK to here as Holland is very expensive for wfp gear. If my business replied solely on one contract or a piece of equipment or a payment and it left me vunerable...that would be a worry.
I do a little trad but imho it's not that important to me...I am primarily wfp and thats how I like it...
trad is not rocket science, ok to get really fast and accurate takes time and lots of practice but again...it's not the holy grail...just another tool that with a little practice you can get by and thats what I do.
I suppose whats more important is could I carry on eating and paying my bills this coming winter if I could not work for 8 weeks?... or perhaps fell from my ladder?
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hes in holland i think dude :)
Oh, my mistake. Sorry :-X
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what would you do if your system was out of action for a while, go around doing sloppy window cleaning?
Get the backpack and 25L containers out of semi retirement.... thats what id do
so you cleary are only a small business then?
if you had to do a massive hotel or school or hospital, you cant just find someone to do it for you evey time.
What ive said is that i have a backup should my van system fail on me.
You didnt ask what size business
And if it came to it i would sub out to those who climb the ladders. Oh sorry i do that already
I am wfp for my safety and my wife and kids future
when did a say use a ladder??
im on about some so called wc's that cant even clean the windows inside due to lack of the basics!
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when did a say use a ladder??
im on about some so called wc's that cant even clean the windows inside due to lack of the basics!
Oh dear a snob window cleaner ;D
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You said ladder when you started talking about van system out of action and having to trad.... dont know about you, but my arms wouldnt stretch to a first floor window
what would you do if your system was out of action for a while, go around doing sloppy window cleaning?
Get the backpack and 25L containers out of semi retirement.... thats what id do
so you cleary are only a small business then?
if you had to do a massive hotel or school or hospital, you cant just find someone to do it for you evey time.
What ive said is that i have a backup should my van system fail on me.
You didnt ask what size business
And if it came to it i would sub out to those who climb the ladders. Oh sorry i do that already
I am wfp for my safety and my wife and kids future
when did a say use a ladder??
im on about some so called wc's that cant even clean the windows inside due to lack of the basics!
You said ladder when you started talking about van system out of action and having to trad.... dont know about you, but my arms wouldnt stretch to a first floor window
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when did a say use a ladder??
im on about some so called wc's that cant even clean the windows inside due to lack of the basics!
Oh dear a snob window cleaner ;D
Must be one of Pingus tools
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so you think its ok for a window cleaner to be unable to clean windows? if you couldnt clean windows and had a window cleaner - you asked him to clean the insides and he said no i cant do it, doesnt look very good does it.
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so you think its ok for a window cleaner to be unable to clean windows? if you couldnt clean windows and had a window cleaner - you asked him to clean the insides and he said no i cant do it, doesnt look very good does it.
no it wouldnt look good, but hey ho... he does a good job of the outsides ;)
Whats up Martin ? you not getting any ? cos you sure are being funny
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sick and tired of window cleaning getting a bad name - not saying this is the reason but it doesnt help! does it?
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so you think its ok for a window cleaner to be unable to clean windows? if you couldnt clean windows and had a window cleaner - you asked him to clean the insides and he said no i cant do it, doesnt look very good does it.
I clean the inside kitchen windows of a few old/infirm customers for free, not really gonna complain are they ;)
As for doing the whole house insides :o too many dodgy situations you can potentially find yourself in.
But if you are happy , go for it ;D
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This is all really individual...some rely solely on a particular method some mix and match
NONE are better than the other in skilled hands all are awfull in poorly trained hands..we have all seen good and bad in various methods...
We just clean windows thats all...but we are all businessmen.
Respecfully
Dave.
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Hows it getting a bad name ? whos upset you now ?
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Gordon Bennet! I'm old! When I firt started in 89, the first guy I employed used to leather and scrim the windows for fun! It was him who taught me how to pull a window off with a squeegie. There is no question of doing my German custies WFP. They always want in and outsides with frames and fiddly bits every time. So I have no choice. My Brit (Squaddie) custies are a different matter.
I could use WFP on them, about 300 of them at the moment, so I am looking closely at all WFP problem posts on here.
I suppose it depends how you have built your round and what sort of work you have. All I would like to say about WCing over here is, if you turn up at some German custy to clean a conservatory, and you pull out a bottle of pure water and a micro, they will tell you not to bother as their cleaning lady can do that for 6 quid an hour.
It's like Pingu says, tool to fit the job. Only my opinion, mind :)
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what about big jobs? pubs, shops, hotels .....
dont you think it would do good to learn more of the basic trad skills?
i cant see why you are against this? im not the only one with view am i?!
and i havent said get a ladder off and risk your neck! just think the basics come first thats all.
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What is more than the basic trad skills? I am not trying to prevoke you into an argument just trying to see what this is about?
Cheers
Dave.
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What is more than the basic trad skills? I am not trying to prevoke you into an argument just trying to see what this is about?
Cheers
Dave.
i agree with alot that you have said. if everyone had read the starting post then it would make sense! just cant see why some wc's cant even use trad kit - this bloke did even own any!
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Neather wFp or trad are rocket, but if you cannot do them they might as well be rocket science. It is the mastering of as many skills that count as you never know when you need then E G water rations or 3 rd floor window cleaning that might need both. So for me I will learn all skills so I can present my self as a knowlegeable window cleaned and win my customer over to my side.
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I started window cleaning not ever having used a squeegee before. I have built up a business of nearly 300 customers and use trad on one regular customers house (1 window).
With wfp window cleaning its not really an essential any more. Unless you choose to use it.
To be fair i dont really have the time to be doing insides. I do occasionally for a few select customers that ask me every now and then. But generally i dont bother unless the money is right.
My trad kit consists of a mop, squeegee and a bucket (1 of each) i cant justify spending out on something im not going to really use.
I dont do pubs, shops or hotels and am happy with the way i work.
The pubs and shops around here are done by guys who work for peanuts.... I put in a quote for a shop and got told they had a guy quote half my price. (i quoted on the basis of £20 p/h which was at the lowest end of my scale)
Yes its a good thing to know how to do, but unless you need to i cant see the point. My brother is trad and if i had work coming out of my ears for trad i would sub it out to him.
I sub out my gutter clearing to him as i dont own anything bigger than a step ladder. Before he started window cleaning i just turned the work down.
At the end of the day its all about personal preference.
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I am trad and I don't need to know how WFP works, so why does a WFP WC need to know how trad works. If he's built his round just doing WFP, then fine. If a customer asks, can you do the insides and he says no, then I don't think his business is going to crumble. There is loads of work out there, where only the outsides have to be done.
If there was going to be a hose pipe ban, then I don't know what WFP guys would do.
For me, trad is important, because a lot of our customers want the insides done and they pay good money for it.
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Gaby the WFP will have to go back to Trad during the hosepipe ban.
Matt
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when will that be?, when was the last one? why worry?..the world could end tomorrow...have you seen the date on that pdf?
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The South and South East had one last year I think, this area of the UK has little rain fall through out the year.
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when will that be?, when was the last one? why worry?..the world could end tomorrow...
But it wont, as I can see into the future ;D ;D
The world will only end the day after my mortgage is fully paid off lol (that would be my luck too)
Matt
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Gaby the WFP will have to go back to Trad during the hosepipe ban.
Matt
To be honest, I don't think it will ever happen. To the normal household yes, but not to a registered business.
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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH PLEASE.....Right how many people here from those as mentioned above...suffered from this hose pipe ban?
Very little rain...you have got to be having a giraffe !!
Half the guys on here were flooded out last year...little rainfall....I Like it..go do another gag..know any about the recession?
..you know here in Holland when they want to build expensive houses/flats...they dig massive holes for the sand...then building houses and flats around that hole...the hole is used to dump the old rubble and such like and the hole floods...hey presto..water front property!
I don't like to dig my vegetable patch too much or deep for fear of digging a well ;D
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Gaby it was rubber stamped this year at a meeting with solicitors acting on behalf of the window cleaning trade and defra, HSE was also present, this meeting happened in March this year.
The reason Defra gave was that the WORDING of the H&S rule regarding ladders was, ladders should only be used once all alternative methods have been ruled out, Defra said on that the window cleaners can go back to using, I quote "bucket and sponge".
Matt
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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH PLEASE.....Right how many people here from those as mentioned above...suffered from this hose pipe ban?
Very little rain...you have got to be having a giraffe !!
Half the guys on here were flooded out last year...little rainfall....I Like it..go do another gag..know any about the recession?
I can assure you Essex was NOT flooded out last year!!!!!
Most of the people on here are form the NothWest of SouthWest, i.e. the areas with the highest rainfall average of the uk.
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Look and the Fed website, all the statements are there!!!!
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Why does having a pop at a side of the industry boil you so much...it's window cleaning ...
water is water ...it's a cyclic thing...
Chances of a complete ban for wfp window cleaners is very remote just as it is for other industries that use water to produce good/services.
Hose pipe ban...is not so much about a lack of water is it? more about a antiquated system unable to contain that water..that same water is leaking into the ground and doing whatever water does.
Whether a hosepipe ban is put in place is not so much about how much water has fallen is it...more abou how much is caught and contained and or how much is available within other regions that can be bought....plenty of water to go around in Europe.
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The fed have recently appealed against defra.
Here is the PDF
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Poles fed from the mains and not static tanks....recently that was June 2006.
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That is the ruling now, but before the appeal was successful it was all WFP not just mains fed.
Matt
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Not saying that one is better than the other, they all have their drawbacks and advantages. What I do as a trad WC, is watch the WFP posts about the drawbacks, so I would know what to do incase of a breakdown with the gear. What the real problem is, in my opinion, is the way it is batted from one side to the other, as if one method is better than the other.
I sit over here watching these discussions and wonder why the hassle starts sometimes. It seems to me, and I know I am going to upset a few guys here, that the trade of WCing is being "Bigged up" by some people to be more complicated than is really is. Like Pingu says, we all clean windows.
Some people lose their job at Lloyds bank, see some geezer with a pole wiping thingy and have a "Bash" at it. Off we go with silly cheap prices and cons being done for half price etc etc.
Next thing is, as far as I know, UK has H&S laws that the rest of Europe are laughing at, and all of a sudden we have HOSHKOSH NVQ ASWEMJQQQS and all the rest of these UK bits of paper to say Joe Bloggs can clean Mrs Smiths windows without starting a fire in a nearby nuclear power station.
It's all about earning a crust or in some cases, building a multi-national household name in cleaning bloody windows.
Who cares who cleans with a pole and funny water or with a wobbly ladder and a sponge. Count the money after the job is done. Who cares?
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You know what..I really do not care what someone else does...I wish you all the best and hope you get everything you wish for and life treats you well...I have no futher desire to waste my life discussing this any further you are right, all you points are right and your methods are the way forward.
Respectfully
Dave...I'm off to watch Monkey.
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I read some articles dated for March this year. either that or i was on pot.
;D
I havent a clue why I had a bee in my bonnet tonight, bloody knackered I know that.
looking at it, so what if other window cleaners can't clean trad way. I can and thats what counts.
Matt
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Goodnight cross swords another time...tommorow is 'the recsssion' ;) ;) ;)
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Goodnight cross swords another time...tommorow is 'the recsssion' ;) ;) ;)
;D ;D ;D
Got to go and pick the other half up from Gatwick tomorrow, looking forward to that NOT lol
Matt
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I havent a clue why I had a bee in my bonnet tonight, bloody knackered I know that.
looking at it, so what if other window cleaners can't clean trad way. I can and thats what counts.
Matt
I enjoyed that, whats todays topic of debate ?
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The fed have recently appealed against defra.
Here is the PDF
thats only for two places isnt it ?
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Ian that was for 2 places yes, but more water companies have requested the drought order, if they looked after their pipework they would same 100's of 1,000,000's of gallons per day, apparently Yorkshire water is the worst for leaking pipes.
Matt