Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ian Lancaster on November 13, 2009, 07:15:38 pm
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If you're serious about growing a healthy profitable and successful business, you're asking the wrong question.
Up to a point, the number of customers is irrelevant. The important statistic you should bear in mind is how much profit you are making.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the money you 'earn' in a day is all profit, it isn't.
You must allow for all overheads, vehicle costs, loan repayments, fuel, insurance, advertising, stationery, telephone, uniform, tools, repairs renewals and replacements etc etc.
Remember the (very true) adage: "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity" If you don't make a good profit you will fail. It may take a few months or even a few years, but to avoid it you must have a realistic plan with clear goals.
I believe that to be sure of real success you should aim for an hourly turnover of at least £30 and achieve this for a minimum of 35 hours a week. This figure will increase in line with inflation as time goes on.
This will give you a good wage with enough left over to invest in your business so that you can weather the ups and downs that will come.
£18 per hour may seem brilliant after a factory or other 'employed' position, but running your own business is a different thing altogether.
Don't make the mistake of undervaluing your time, make sure you can turn over enough money to sustain your business and grow year on year.
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ill go along with that ;D
bob
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i dont think its realistic to expect to do 35 hrs work a week on the glass so to speak.what about really bad weather days?early finishes in winter etc?i think ur right ian about the £30 an hour though.im based in the north west and still trad so £25 an hr is ok for now for me although i do earn £40 an hour sometimes but not hour after hour!im all domestic and a sole trader.i do expect 30 to 40pound an hour next year when i switch to wfp.im pricing much better for new work but wouldnt get some of the prices being quoted on here!like ive just said depends on area as well.its alot cheaper to live up here.£66 a week rent for my flat! ;D ;D
best wishes to everyone
dazmond
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Now i'm also a newbie but I think if you get your pricing correct from day 1 then it shouldn't matter greatly if it's 1 bedroom flat or a 5 bed detached. I base mine on estimated time to clean(once up to speed) divided by my target hourly turnover.
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i dont think its realistic to expect to do 35 hrs work a week on the glass so to speak.what about really bad weather days?early finishes in winter etc?i think ur right ian about the £30 an hour though.im based in the north west and still trad so £25 an hr is ok for now for me although i do earn £40 an hour sometimes but not hour after hour!im all domestic and a sole trader.i do expect 30 to 40pound an hour next year when i switch to wfp.im pricing much better for new work but wouldnt get some of the prices being quoted on here!like ive just said depends on area as well.its alot cheaper to live up here.£66 a week rent for my flat! ;D ;D
best wishes to everyone
35 hrs isnt unrealistic thats only 7 hours a day on the glass over 5 days, yes you have bad days and admin. but thats why its important to follow the advice given and price accordinally
dazmond
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it is unrealistic to work 35 hrs EVERY week!by the time uv took bad weather days/holidays/sick days/poor motivation days.u will NOT average that in a year.9am til 5pm?u wont work 8 hrs?maybe 7 at a push!winter?cant work after 4 sometimes 330 on the shortest days.if i was living down south and was WFP think i would want to earn 35pound at least!what with higher overheads with equipment and the astronomical cost of living!
;D ;D
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it is unrealistic to work 35 hrs EVERY week!by the time uv took bad weather days/holidays/sick days/poor motivation days.u will NOT average that in a year.9am til 5pm?u wont work 8 hrs?maybe 7 at a push!winter?cant work after 4 sometimes 330 on the shortest days.if i was living down south and was WFP think i would want to earn 35pound at least!what with higher overheads with equipment and the astronomical cost of living!
;D ;D
i wasnt disagreeing
i will try explain here goes
if you want to work a 40 hour week you will probably only do 24 hrs max earning so when working out your rate, you use the 24 hrs, then you dont multiple by 52 as you will never do it so you take say 48weeks, and thats probably to much. in reality it could be 40 weeks
so an example would be you want to pull in 25k a year so divide by 40= 625 a week then divide by 24hrs= £26 ish an hour would be your target hourly rate
but remember thats only turnover not profit
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i work on £25 a hour i got more sometimes but very rarely less, but even though some days my actual cleaning time is 5 hours i stil include all travelling in my hourly wage, for example 5 hours work 3 hours cleaning =£200 =£25 per hour but you could say £40 perworking hour but i would say that is cheating!!
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my hourly rate means "on the glass".travel time is v.minimal on my round.lunch and talking to custys is not included! ;D ;D
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i include the full day from leaving house to getting back but that is the same for he employees
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If you really want to upset people, just tell 'em that they're "WRONG", works a treat. Just like to give an example here. I'll talk about just my Brit custies. I have just short of 300 of 'em. All six weekly. We work in two's and do on average 20 to 25 a day in about a 4/5 hour day. The average price is 14 Euros/12-13 quid. So with travel and work, we do about a 30 hour week. So are my prices and round structure "WRONG"?. Who cares? I don't.
If I worked alone I would have to work 6 days a week for about an 8 hour day. Is that still "Wrong"? Shall I drop 100 and charge the rest 20 quid?
All rounds are different and areas are different. People want different things from their business and some are ambitious. Some make more money than others and some just want to get by.
Funny old world isn't it. :D But nobody is "Wrong".
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good points everyone and some intresting maths lessons.
I have phathomed some of these out myself i think the 40 weeks a yr is pretty honest.
As you have hols, sick days, bad weather days, shorter days in winter, van need servicing, repairs, I had to wait in for the repair man the other day for the washing machine :D
Dosen't seem worth going a work ;D
I average £20 an hour which I thought was great but when hit a very rough patch with van problems, it made me realise, a run of bad luck and i'm in real trouble, still haven't forgot feb snow, lost a week's work.
Will work on getting hourly rate up, i have a must have target but go for more; i think it should be upping the bar.
Will work on compacting my round in spring and hopefully when i've got too much at 6 week frequency, sell off some. Also some price rises for custy's.
Work on building up some savings.
Think i'm in a hand to mouth situation :(
Lee
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i agree craig b!u should know what ewans like by now! ;Djust cos uv not got 200 custys at 20 to 30pound a pop doesnt mean ur not doing ok!v compact work u can hit £30+an hour.ive got some granny flats in a poor area that i clean for £2 a pop.30 flats-2 hrs 30quid and so on.im trad as well.WFP i would be faster again.i also have 2 estates with 90+houses on each estate.most 5 or 6 quid standard 3 bedders and i do ok.wfp would be faster but higher overheads.i have 350 custys.some £3,£4,£5,£6,£7,£8,£9,£10,£11,£12,£15,£20 but a lot are v.compact which cuts out travel time,petrol etc.most are in the same area.i do price better for new work and small rise every april for the underpriced work.onward and upward.also with having more custys if u lose the odd one its no big loss and u get more tips at xmas ;)
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lee dewing are u trad or wfp?if ur wfp and living down south thats poor to be only making £20 an hr on the glass so to speak.is ur round v.scattered?by the time uv forked out for poles,resin etc and paid the rent or morgage,tax,insurance and do u work in the rain or shy off on the first drop?my prices are quite low compared to some but im in the north west/trad and make 25+an hr.my works mainly v.compact but i hope to average 30+ an hour next year when i switch to wfp.get them prices up!ur worth it!
best wishes lee and build up an emergency fund in a seperate bank account for van repairs,bad weather days etc! ;D ;D
dazmond
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£30 per hour is right for being a “successful window cleaner”, 35 hours per week is wrong and not realistic for any individual unless you like working overtime each week.
“Real success” (as Ian describe), would be sustaining a higher hourly rate than £30 but with realistic working hours.
This can all be achieved with a customer base of any where between 50 – 200 customers. Below 50 customers the risk is, if you lose a single customer this represents a high percentage loss, more than 200 customers a month your pricing is wrong or you are working constant overtime, or both.
Obviously if you are going to take on staff, these figures change accordingly, but the pro’s & con’s for each type of outfit are easily distinguishable. Just work accordingly to your strengths.
Ewan you should write a book, you are very good with words ;)
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dazmond,
I am wfp, freedom trolley and backpack.
I live in se. essex.
my work is a mix scattered and compact.
I use to worry i was going to slow but i'm sure i can't go much faster now i can't use a vanmount system that would be quicker i'm sure, but not that much.
I'm sure i'm under pricing also on some work still can't break out of that mould sometimes of i can't charge that.
Example i did a good sized place on thursday outside £25 which on 2nd thoughts should be £30.
I did inside and out which included small con roof 4 panels (done everytime)
did inside con roof this time was easy as reached on tippy toes.
I was there 3 half hours charged £60, when i went away kicked myself £75 easy.
custy's words: "£60 thats alright"
she said last w/c was useless and i think they must have been paying £30 as on first clean they tipped £5 to round upto £30. (outside)
I think i'm a good w/c. but a poor business man :(
I do get p'd off and feel like building a brand new round and starting again, i have made alot of mistakes and would like to go at it again.
which in spring i am making changes as it's just not good enough.
as i haven't had the guts to door knock i have just leaflet'd and this has slower results i hang on to work that is probably to cheap.
thanks lee.
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i collect while i clean,cheques and collect 2 hrs a week normally.plenty of cash flow!! ;D ;D
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thanks for ur honesty lee.ive also made many mistakes in this game and in life in general.im much better at pricing new work now though.its the underpriced ones that uv been doing for years isnt it?im putting all old underpriced work up by 50p or aquid every april for the next few yrs.and pricing new work at 30pound an hour trad.ive put a few up £5 in the last few weeks.stuff i wasnt worried about losing and not one said no!so there worth doing now! ;D ;D
best wishes dazmond
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good for you dazmond.
hope goes well.
I think i'm across between the scarecrow and the lion in the wizard of oz.
I'm asking santa for some brains and courage for xmas.
Maybe then i will door knock and price correctly :D
thanks lee.
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Thanks for the advice but do you think i came into this business with the blinkers on? I did not, i know where i want to be, how much time i want to dedicate to cleaning in a week and how much i 'need' in the month to pay myself a wage, pay the bills and leave some left over to pay tax etc from my account. Im switched on believe me, my heads always ticking away on how to make my business grow. When i am at the point i want to be ill be stopping well at least for a few years, i worked this morning 9.30am-12.50am made £60 with travel time included, is that 'wrong'? I believe there can be no wrong just differences imo. :)
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not if it took you an hour to get there and an hour back :)
only kidding
if your costs are low and you are taking profit from that £60 then its all good
someone with higher costs may take less profit from charging more!!
but i wouold always aim to do more if you want a good wage
never get satisfied wit £18 or £20 always try get better paying work
i would say ian lancasters figures are pretty realistic to aim for personally
and why you cant work 7 hours 5 days a week?? 35 hours week in and out is not a problem unless you are scared of rain! Ok you will lose an odd day very rarely but if you really want you will make it up or write it off but they will be exceptions!!!
easy, i do more than that some weeks!!
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Its impossible for me to work 7 hours a day, my max when im fully set up with my round will be 5 in a day to work around my son, no point paying childcare when i can do it is there?
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I dont think there should be a set wage people should be aiming for. Some days on domestic im working at over £40ph, others £25, this is overall including a little lunch.
But I find when I aim for a rate or am thinking of one and I dont do it I get dissapointed. Which is not good. I say just work at prices your comfortable with and know can cover you. Dont get caught up in the ph rate.
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Im focused more on a daily/monthly income and im working from there ;) we are all different at the end of the day.
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If you're serious about growing a healthy profitable and successful business, you're asking the wrong question.
Up to a point, the number of customers is irrelevant. The important statistic you should bear in mind is how much profit you are making.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the money you 'earn' in a day is all profit, it isn't.
You must allow for all overheads, vehicle costs, loan repayments, fuel, insurance, advertising, stationery, telephone, uniform, tools, repairs renewals and replacements etc etc.
Remember the (very true) adage: "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity" If you don't make a good profit you will fail. It may take a few months or even a few years, but to avoid it you must have a realistic plan with clear goals.
I believe that to be sure of real success you should aim for an hourly turnover of at least £30 and achieve this for a minimum of 35 hours a week. This figure will increase in line with inflation as time goes on.
This will give you a good wage with enough left over to invest in your business so that you can weather the ups and downs that will come.
£18 per hour may seem brilliant after a factory or other 'employed' position, but running your own business is a different thing altogether.
Don't make the mistake of undervaluing your time, make sure you can turn over enough money to sustain your business and grow year on year.
Ian. Are you referring to the £30 an hour as an "on the glass" figure or is that drive betweens, setting up etc?
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If you're serious about growing a healthy profitable and successful business, you're asking the wrong question.
Up to a point, the number of customers is irrelevant. The important statistic you should bear in mind is how much profit you are making.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the money you 'earn' in a day is all profit, it isn't.
You must allow for all overheads, vehicle costs, loan repayments, fuel, insurance, advertising, stationery, telephone, uniform, tools, repairs renewals and replacements etc etc.
Remember the (very true) adage: "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity" If you don't make a good profit you will fail. It may take a few months or even a few years, but to avoid it you must have a realistic plan with clear goals.
I believe that to be sure of real success you should aim for an hourly turnover of at least £30 and achieve this for a minimum of 35 hours a week. This figure will increase in line with inflation as time goes on.
This will give you a good wage with enough left over to invest in your business so that you can weather the ups and downs that will come.
£18 per hour may seem brilliant after a factory or other 'employed' position, but running your own business is a different thing altogether.
Don't make the mistake of undervaluing your time, make sure you can turn over enough money to sustain your business and grow year on year.
Ian. Are you referring to the £30 an hour as an "on the glass" figure or is that drive betweens, setting up etc?
It´s from the minute you leave home to the minute you get home again ;)
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If you're serious about growing a healthy profitable and successful business, you're asking the wrong question.
Up to a point, the number of customers is irrelevant. The important statistic you should bear in mind is how much profit you are making.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the money you 'earn' in a day is all profit, it isn't.
You must allow for all overheads, vehicle costs, loan repayments, fuel, insurance, advertising, stationery, telephone, uniform, tools, repairs renewals and replacements etc etc.
Remember the (very true) adage: "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity" If you don't make a good profit you will fail. It may take a few months or even a few years, but to avoid it you must have a realistic plan with clear goals.
I believe that to be sure of real success you should aim for an hourly turnover of at least £30 and achieve this for a minimum of 35 hours a week. This figure will increase in line with inflation as time goes on.
This will give you a good wage with enough left over to invest in your business so that you can weather the ups and downs that will come.
£18 per hour may seem brilliant after a factory or other 'employed' position, but running your own business is a different thing altogether.
Don't make the mistake of undervaluing your time, make sure you can turn over enough money to sustain your business and grow year on year.
Ian. Are you referring to the £30 an hour as an "on the glass" figure or is that drive betweens, setting up etc?
It´s from the minute you leave home to the minute you get home again ;)
There are days that I achieve that (and more) and there are days when I don't - especially if I feel a bit knackered and take too long a break.
I've very recently cleared out the garagfe I was renting and handed it back as I no longer needed it. There was all sorts of tat in there - some of which had been buried a long time at the back. It was a little treasure archive of paperwork and my two shredders have been working overtime. It's hard to believe that I used to charge such low amounts back in 1992 (I told you it was old :) ). As I was shredding the records, I did a quick count up of how many customers I had back then. From 10/91 to 10/93 I built up a round of 363 customers all done trad. Most of it was a crap round for one simple reason - it was underpriced. I was too kind to messers back then too. These days I have about 250 customers plus a bit of subbying that I do 2 - 3 days per month and even allowing for inflation and higher outgoings of WFP, I earn far far more from the 250 than I ever did from the 363.
The round got even bigger after that. It was very unwieldy too trying to run it from excercise books and paper files. I reckon that I was probably supplying a service to about 450 customers at one point - all ladder work.
These old records are a bit of a treasure chest and it was tempting to keep them for posterity but you have to let go at some point. The IR want them kept for 7 years (6 plus the current one) so I will be shredding everything that is from the last century.
So, as you were saying, it's notr the number of customers, it's the profit you earn from them. I couldn't help noticing that my turnover on my second year of trading was about 13 grand. The first year was just over 10 grand - but that was assisted by a self-employed driving job that I did one week a mnonth while I was building my round. Without that it would probably have been 7 - 8 grand.
Just thought I would dip into memory lane from when I started out as there seem to be quite a few new starters lately :)
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10-13k back in 91-93 was good money considering the minimums then etc
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10-13k back in 91-93 was good money considering the minimums then etc
Bear in mind that this was actually the turnover figure rather than profit. Even back then the business proportion of running my small van could be around 2 grand. On top of that there were tools, insurance, accountant's fee etc. It was funny glancing over a few of the receipts. The 4* petrol that I was using then was about 50p a litre :) . The rent for my council flat was about £30 a week - and that included rates and water/sewage charges.
Out of all those customers, I only still clean for three of them. I bet the work I've picked up over the years and lost or dumped could have three rounds made of it. Not particularly good rounds but it's still quite a few custies.
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still my first years t/o was the same only a few years ago :)
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when u divide ur turnover by 52 wks and take off tax,expenses etc.NOT MUCH LEFT!im working on my pricing though i think it also depends on area.if u earn 30,000 a year in the north west it would go alot further than down south!if ur trad even further and so on!
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I think its down to the area you live in also, i managed to get myself another 2 new 4 weeklys last night and one of which referred me to her work which they cant get a cleaner to go to for over 2 years :) so initial clean may be doubled :) Im now on around 40 in total, which for a town that has already got around 6 other window cleaners in it aint too bad. My costs are low each month and i aim to keep them low too. Having only started in mid september 14th to be exact i will be sitting with a balance of nearly 700 from nothing once all the bills are paid out this month, in a month or two i hope to be in position to pay off at least a quarter of my loan before the end of the tax year, wont pay any tax or very little anyway so may aswell use what i can of it :) Am i doing alright and bare im mind im in NI here. I cant charge call out fees etc like other areas can.
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I am on 18 from starting canvassing two weeks ago on friday.did first ones today.so as good as your customer base is JD i am really hoping to have a few more than that after 2 months.Time will tell,depends if i can keep the canvassing effort up :)
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bare in mind ive only really been canvassing on the doors a little under 3 weeks, running out of flyers too which isnt helping!!