Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 04:35:18 pm

Title: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 04:35:18 pm
In the last week I've gained a very painful left shoulder.
It's come on gradually, not seemingly from an event, which is worrying.
Doesn't seem to hurt any any particular direction, so I'm fearing it's the joint. :(

Am I right in saying it's from having that left arm up in the air poling?
Trouble is, at this time of year I can't afford to not work.
Worse still, whilst doing a big fascia/gutters job today (which really hurt) I felt a twinge in the other shoulder. :-\

I work out at the gym twice a week, so I don't know if that's good in strengthening it, or helped to cause it...?

Anyone else have any experience of this, or help for me?
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: pingu on November 12, 2009, 04:39:19 pm
Go and see a chiropractor...it may help..works for me.

Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: LWC on November 12, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Go trad.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: pingu on November 12, 2009, 04:43:43 pm
Trad is for girls...Squeaky could'nt hack that either ;)
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: david thomas on November 12, 2009, 04:45:46 pm
I have the same pain just between the shoulder and back muscle i've also have joined a gym go twice a week but I had the pain a month before starting the gym, when lifting weights I find this starts the pain but so does the w.f.p my doctor has told me to rest it but I can't afford the time off.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 04:56:00 pm
I have the same pain just between the shoulder and back muscle i've also have joined a gym go twice a week but I had the pain a month before starting the gym, when lifting weights I find this starts the pain but so does the w.f.p my doctor has told me to rest it but I can't afford the time off.
Well exactly.
But then last time I had repetitive strain (from trad work!) I had over 4 weeks off in pain.
When I finally went back to work it started getting better...

Chiropractor couldn't help as it was swelling trapping a nerve.
Not sure if this is the same thing or not.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Tosh on November 12, 2009, 04:58:06 pm
Is this pain in the same shoulder/place?
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: STEVE-UK on November 12, 2009, 04:59:29 pm
WFP can cause RSI of the shoulders

Also bench pressing is bad for you especially if pressing 100kgs or more as it changes your posture

if the pain is a burning feeling its more than likely an RSI
if you have a sharp pain when you raise your arm above shoulder height you could have a torn rotator cuff, this is down to the bench pressing
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: cozy on November 12, 2009, 05:03:41 pm
Why not go and see your doctor?
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: david thomas on November 12, 2009, 05:04:50 pm
sounds like I have RSI.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: dazmond on November 12, 2009, 05:07:48 pm
why do u need to go the gym when ur poling all day?probably straining too much!im still trad but use a trad pole every day for quite a lot of windows in winter due to mossy/slippy surfaces.stretch before and after work and get ur girlfriend to give u a good massage!also are u rushing around like a headless chicken all day?maybe need to slow down?get a lighter pole?have a few days off?take ibuprofen with 2 paracetamol.works wonders!

best wishes dazmond
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 05:17:10 pm
WFP can cause RSI of the shoulders

Also bench pressing is bad for you especially if pressing 100kgs or more as it changes your posture

if the pain is a burning feeling its more than likely an RSI
if you have a sharp pain when you raise your arm above shoulder height you could have a torn rotator cuff, this is down to the bench pressing
Nah, it's not a sharp pain, in fact it's not that painful.
Now if I put my arm behind my back, that's painful.
I'm not benching 100kg, but maybe 15 or 20 less on a good day.
Does feel like front delt area, but more sort of "inside". I'm sure it's the joint.

Is this pain in the same shoulder/place?
Yes it is, totally the same. Although today I did notice it outside of Chepstow too.

Dazmond...maybe a bit of all of them! Cheers.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Craig 72 on November 12, 2009, 05:18:37 pm

Also bench pressing is bad for you especially if pressing 100kgs or more as it changes your posture


Sorry mate but that's nonsense.If you bench on the Smith machine it can cause RC damage as the bar is locked into a vertical plane.This can cause grief as you don't have to use the stabalising muscles which are needed to keep the bar steady when you freeweight bench.Freeweight bench is fine if your form is right,no matter how much you press.Not meaning to give it the big 'un but I've been benching 130-140kg for years now without grief.My mate benches 170 kg,again without probs.Exercises to avoid for bad shoulders-smith press as said,upright row,wide grip chins,behind neck press and weighted dips.All from experience,there's probably more.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: geefree on November 12, 2009, 05:22:08 pm
what is your main pole squeaky,??

i had pain in shoulder, with a lump.

went to the doctors, told me it was the top of my collar bone , caused my repetetive friction,

told me to swap hands, change things around,

but the best thing i did was get a lighter pole (dave   ) ;D

and the difference is unbelievable, especially them windows over con roofs, where your arms drop off.

no pain anywhere now.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 05:33:23 pm

Also bench pressing is bad for you especially if pressing 100kgs or more as it changes your posture


Sorry mate but that's nonsense.If you bench on the Smith machine it can cause RC damage as the bar is locked into a vertical plane.This can cause grief as you don't have to use the stabalising muscles which are needed to keep the bar steady when you freeweight bench.Freeweight bench is fine if your form is right,no matter how much you press.Not meaning to give it the big 'un but I've been benching 130-140kg for years now without grief.My mate benches 170 kg,again without probs.Exercises to avoid for bad shoulders-smith press as said,upright row,wide grip chins,behind neck press and weighted dips.All from experience,there's probably more.
Well that's half my session done for... ;D
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 05:34:53 pm
what is your main pole squeaky,??

i had pain in shoulder, with a lump.

went to the doctors, told me it was the top of my collar bone , caused my repetetive friction,

told me to swap hands, change things around,

but the best thing i did was get a lighter pole (dave   ) ;D

and the difference is unbelievable, especially them windows over con roofs, where your arms drop off.

no pain anywhere now.
I've got various bits of zensor, gangster, superlite etc...it's all light stuff.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Craig 72 on November 12, 2009, 05:41:00 pm

Also bench pressing is bad for you especially if pressing 100kgs or more as it changes your posture


Sorry mate but that's nonsense.If you bench on the Smith machine it can cause RC damage as the bar is locked into a vertical plane.This can cause grief as you don't have to use the stabalising muscles which are needed to keep the bar steady when you freeweight bench.Freeweight bench is fine if your form is right,no matter how much you press.Not meaning to give it the big 'un but I've been benching 130-140kg for years now without grief.My mate benches 170 kg,again without probs.Exercises to avoid for bad shoulders-smith press as said,upright row,wide grip chins,behind neck press and weighted dips.All from experience,there's probably more.
Well that's half my session done for... ;D

I would suggest thats your problem mate.Those 3 exercises are murder for your rotator cuffs,which it sounds like where your trouble is.When I've had similar trouble in the past switching to dumbell work for a while has helped tremendously.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: weetot on November 12, 2009, 05:47:31 pm
Stop goin' to the bleedin gym, don't you get enough excercise.   ;D

Its tennis bleedin elbow i cant get shot of....Pain factor when sitting around is 7 out of 10. :'(
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 05:54:23 pm

Also bench pressing is bad for you especially if pressing 100kgs or more as it changes your posture


Sorry mate but that's nonsense.If you bench on the Smith machine it can cause RC damage as the bar is locked into a vertical plane.This can cause grief as you don't have to use the stabalising muscles which are needed to keep the bar steady when you freeweight bench.Freeweight bench is fine if your form is right,no matter how much you press.Not meaning to give it the big 'un but I've been benching 130-140kg for years now without grief.My mate benches 170 kg,again without probs.Exercises to avoid for bad shoulders-smith press as said,upright row,wide grip chins,behind neck press and weighted dips.All from experience,there's probably more.
Well that's half my session done for... ;D

I would suggest thats your problem mate.Those 3 exercises are murder for your rotator cuffs,which it sounds like where your trouble is.When I've had similar trouble in the past switching to dumbell work for a while has helped tremendously.
But it's not a sharp pain, and certainly never felt anything happen.
It's just come on over days...
Better leave the gym out completely for a week or two then. Shrinkage...great!
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Craig 72 on November 12, 2009, 05:59:02 pm
It sounds very similar to when I had grief mate.Came on slowly,started as a kind of ache then progessively got worse.At it's worst I would be up during the night in real bad pain.If you do nothing else I would switch those exercises.Just change Smith bench to freeweight or dumbell,upright rows (these really are bad for it) to shrugs and behind neck press to front press.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Ian Lancaster on November 12, 2009, 06:04:49 pm
Could be Frozen Shoulder.  I had this when I was about 45 - the family thought it was hilarious as the dictionary said 'an affliction of the elderly'.

I went to the doctor who confirmed the diagnosis and put me on a course of treatment with Movelat cream (the full strength prescription version - over-the-counter stuff is just not effective)

I also bought a heat lamp and spent a few hours with it aimed at my shoulder - the problem cleared up after a week or so, but it can take up to a year or more in some cases.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: dd on November 12, 2009, 06:36:04 pm
I was diagnosed with tendonitis in my right shoulder about 9 years ago from trad window cleaning and advised to "pace myself". I took a mineral supplement called Maximol from Neways and in a short time it cleared up (had the condition previously for a year or so and did not follow GPs advice to rest).
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: johns window kleen on November 12, 2009, 07:09:25 pm
Rub on loads of Tiger Balm, but make sure you wash your hands before you have a wee. ;D
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: weetot on November 12, 2009, 07:19:55 pm
Rub on loads of Tiger Balm, but make sure you wash your hands before you have a wee. ;D

Ooh painful.  ;D
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: dd on November 12, 2009, 09:22:56 pm
Rub on loads of Tiger Balm, but make sure you wash your hands before you have a wee. ;D
Just make sure the tiger is asleep when you do it.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Clive McDonald on November 12, 2009, 09:26:31 pm
some of those things you do with little dumb bells can be bad, where you raise your hands from your sides...

Most weight lifters don't stretch.Put your hands behind you in the door jamb is a good one.As craig said the rotater cuff is really complex, but all you can do is stretch or rest.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: weetot on November 12, 2009, 10:10:35 pm
I agree, but resting isnt for the self-employed.
I was told to do this for various ailments to do with window/carpetcleaning, but its not like you're still getting paid whilst taking time off, i would love to rest, but can't......................................................................................time for another career change.  :'(
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 12, 2009, 11:22:23 pm
Thanks for the advice guys.

Feels like the other shoulder is starting to go that way pretty quickly too.
Really starting to feel it tonight.
Both at once! How unfair. I need to work! :(
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Window Washers on November 12, 2009, 11:41:18 pm
Thanks for the advice guys.

Feels like the other shoulder is starting to go that way pretty quickly too.
Really starting to feel it tonight.
Both at once! How unfair. I need to work! :(
Squeaky im having physio for this at the moment has been going on for weeks now, on sunday it brought me to my knees.

it started as a slight burning feeling in my shoulder, for weeks it was there but working 7 days a weeks I knew was not helping just did not have a choice I needed to get stuff done.

Anyway, I found out that using wfp you joints can and will start to move out of place and start to rub because we use wfp your doing all move ment forward same with benching again forward push or up forward if laying, so need to do opposite to help it. one way to help this is to do the opposite I have some  (unsure if spelt right) terra band which is just like a very think rubber band, it is on my stair post I pull this back past my body keeping straight this helped stop the shoulder burn 10 times 3 times a day, I then just got pain in shoudler disk bulge or nerve trapped as from the start I could not bend my head down ear to shoulder as was stiff. this is starting to go now, but went from one shoulder to the other, resting it like the doctor said would have made me even tighter than I am already feeling as we over compensate for injury like this....

If you can see a physio I would try this, anti inflamators are very good heat is not good for an inflamed injury altough it feels great, I got told off  is meant to be cold to shrink inflamation heat causes things to swell.....

This annoyed me because I thought I was clever getting my back heatpads.





Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Tosh on November 13, 2009, 12:07:01 am
Thanks for the advice guys.

Feels like the other shoulder is starting to go that way pretty quickly too.
Really starting to feel it tonight.
Both at once! How unfair. I need to work! :(

Looking at the weather forecast it looks like we've got Monday off too; so you've got four straight days of rest.  I'd suggest that you don't do the gym and start taking some anti inflamitories.  Then pace yourself; don't overdo it; work a longer day but take it more easy.

And there's no point in worrying about what may or may not happen in the future; 99% of our worries never come to fruition; it just wastes energy.

Have you thought about meditating?   ;D  One of the fringe benifits is that you sit in an upright position for ten minutes, and this in itself has a positive effect on your physical health.  There's a course on a Wydean school; it's free; though the last class in on Wednesday.  Its really good!
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: dd on November 13, 2009, 06:56:36 am
Meditation is good. It helps let go of stress. We unconsciously hold onto stresses in our body which in turn lead to more apparent physical problems. Yoga is also good at releasing stresses though you would want to avoid pushing it too far.

Who knows, you may even become enlightened.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Craig 72 on November 13, 2009, 07:42:10 am
Thanks for the advice guys.

Feels like the other shoulder is starting to go that way pretty quickly too.
Really starting to feel it tonight.
Both at once! How unfair. I need to work! :(

Again,that happened to me mate.When one shoulder went,the other on followed,and they would seem to alternate when they were playing up bizarrely.Like the guys say,with the weather so shocking rest up for a few days,gym included.From my experience you won't lose too much in the way of gains if you take a week or two off and even if you do they'll come back in no time.I can't stress enough though how naughty those exercises I mentioned are.When you do train again I would lighten up the weights a bit and like I say,switching from bar work to dumbell for a month or two worked miracles.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 13, 2009, 08:39:28 am
Thanks again, and interesting words from Ian. I thought heat hurt more afterwards...
Knowing how long doctors take, I've decided to go to minor injuries at the hospital this afternoon and see what they say.

Can't have today off I'm afraid as I've got bills to pay, and monday is commercial work, but at least that's trad and I can just carefully squeegee with the better arm.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: elite mike on November 13, 2009, 10:59:40 am
hi rog

cod liver oil

lots of sardines ,mackerel etc

works for me,and as tosh keeps saying , ime a lot older than you ;D
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sunshine/Cleaning on November 13, 2009, 11:56:12 am
Squeaky,

I have had the same problem for about 2-3 months and went to the doctors. She sent me to Physio and it was explained that it was some sort of inflammation caused by RSI Arthritis or tendonitis. The only real help is to change the way we work!! Bit difficult really, I had a week trad last week and as it is my ladder arm I felt the same amount of pain as with WFP. Rest is another option but like you I too have bills.

I am seriously looking into re-training as no matter how I work the problem will be there. Anti-inflammatories do help but are not a long term solution. It's not frozen shoulder as with that there will be no movement at all. However, it will only get worse if you don't get it sorted.

All the best

Stuart
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 13, 2009, 12:25:20 pm
Cheers Stuart. I think you're spot on.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 13, 2009, 12:26:53 pm
hi rog

cod liver oil

lots of sardines ,mackerel etc

works for me,and as tosh keeps saying , ime a lot older than you ;D
I do eat sardines and pilchards to help with my protein intake anyway.

A lot of customers suggest Glucausamine rather than cod liver oil.
Builds up the padding round the joint apparently and works wonders.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: trevor perry on November 13, 2009, 12:33:24 pm
do stretches every morning before starting work this not only helps get your muscles prepared for the days work but also is a way of releasing trapped nerves weights are good for building the muscles for using heavier poles, i use weights every day and curl and press 20kg weights in each hand for 200 reps every night as long as you stretch and warm up before doing heavy sessions you shouldn have any problems.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: matt on November 13, 2009, 12:34:45 pm
hi rog

cod liver oil

lots of sardines ,mackerel etc

works for me,and as tosh keeps saying , ime a lot older than you ;D
I do eat sardines and pilchards to help with my protein intake anyway.

A lot of customers suggest Glucausamine rather than cod liver oil.
Builds up the padding round the joint apparently and works wonders.

i use Glucausamine ( well the veggie alternative ) , i have used it for years, i also take flaxseed oil ( veggie alternative to cod liver oil )

do they work ? ? ?  ? i dont know, but for the few quid they cost its worth a try
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: dai on November 13, 2009, 04:11:17 pm
One of the first things we learned trad was to be ambidextrous. We learn to be comfortable using either hand to do the job. We could easily learn to do WFP the same, but because we don't need to, we don't. I'm as guilty as the next guy where this is concerned, must make more of an effort to lead with my right hand.
I often get pain between the shoulder blades, so it's a back problem.
Ibuprofen is an excellent anti inflammatory, available over the counter, and cheaper than chips. Try taking the maximum dose for a couple of weeks, it takes a while before anti inflammatories kick in.
Hope your better soon.
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: matt on November 13, 2009, 06:51:28 pm
One of the first things we learned trad was to be ambidextrous. We learn to be comfortable using either hand to do the job. We could easily learn to do WFP the same, but because we don't need to, we don't. I'm as guilty as the next guy where this is concerned, must make more of an effort to lead with my right hand.
I often get pain between the shoulder blades, so it's a back problem.
Ibuprofen is an excellent anti inflammatory, available over the counter, and cheaper than chips. Try taking the maximum dose for a couple of weeks, it takes a while before anti inflammatories kick in.
Hope your better soon.

i use either hand to lead with the pole, i change from house to house, the idea it will cut downt he risk of RSI
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: A & J Owen Window Cleaning on November 13, 2009, 06:59:46 pm
try putting your end of pole in your  empty sidekick when on your  belt  thus taking strain on constant holding of pole then keep changing hands every so often
hope this is of any help mate
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Ian_Giles on November 13, 2009, 08:47:46 pm
I have a frozen shoulder, it is a real sod too  :'(
You do get plenty of movement with a frozen shoulder, the problem is the restriction of movement, and if your arm extends past whatever happens to be your limit it is bloody agony!
It is a pain that grows to a very high peak and then fades away after a few minutes.

Typically if you lift up both arms as high as you can, you will find the bad arm will not extend as high as the good one.
I've had a couple of cortisone injections and it has helped, but it hasn't gone away.

I've simply adapted how I work and just put up with the pain, oh, of course I do swallow a couple of ipruprofen every day in the hope that helps...I think it does!

That isn't to say you have the same thing, the shoulder is one complicated joint....

Go see whichever doc in your practice is either the chiropractor or osteopath and they will at least give you an accurate diagnosis.

Ian
Title: Re: Injury from Wfp?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 13, 2009, 11:33:06 pm
try putting your end of pole in your  empty sidekick when on your  belt  thus taking strain on constant holding of pole then keep changing hands every so often
hope this is of any help mate
That's an original idea. I'll have a look at that one. Cheers.