Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: concept on October 05, 2009, 09:02:05 pm
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Been thinking this one over, and it is a question I have to ask, and I am sure will be justified by those who know more about the industry and manufacture of poles than I...
Looking at the prices of poles for WFP, they seem incredibly expensive in comparison to poles for other trades, yet not too disimilar in design, give or take some clamps, and a couple of holes.
example:
16ft Harris Pole(weight unknown): £15
17ft Extel (Fibre Glass @ 1.45kg): £80
18ft Powerpole (Aluminium weight unknown): £275
Similarly, carbon fishing poles are inexpensive in comparison.
I guess my point, although I truly cant be bothered getting too far into it, is I can't believe the prices of poles just because they are for WFP. A simple adaption of a decorating pole makes a good pole for domestics, priced at around £15, so how can suppliers/manufacturers not replicate this kind of price? I know millions more Harris Poles will be sold than WFP poles, however, can that really justify the huge price difference?
Is it purely that there are not enough competitors in the market place, so prices can be whatever they fancy, or are our suppliers going to the wrong people for manufacture?!
Just felt like a moan up tonight lads n lassies, so feel free to shoot me down in flames as I am sure I will be! 8)
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bingo ;D
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I have said the very same thing since i started wfp,
And to top off your comments, you have to have them delivered and pay for that too!
Why there are no outlets countrywide ,where you can nip out and pick up a water fed clamped pole...is beyond me.
To be honest, they dont last any longer than a fishing, or Harris pole either.( everyday domestic poles)
and if people say they do...then they hardly use them.
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supply and demand and time, these poles will come down in price the higher the demand and in time.
At the moment there are a few pole makers when someone looks into it then they will change the pricing and blow some people in half with prices ( I am not going to make poles by the way I do not have the time to look into it and the questions I see Alex get on here is enough to put off most people lol. None of the comments above are made at Alex in anyway as I use his poles, yet I would love his price to drop by half I cant see it happening this year :(
limited supply will always mean higher prices....
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Cost far too high, too many models on the market and some are obsolete as they only sell because they are cheap. It’s the lack of marketing experience the manufactories that is the problem; they compete with themselves for the same market. Big range is not a big supplier.
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I agree they are incredibly expensive.
Carbon fibre seems to be the choice material for the poles, so how much should a window cleaner pay for a 25ft telescopic carbon fibre?
If you want high carbon content- £10/foot. the price is primarily controlled by Japan and its not being helped by Airbus using so much of it in their planes.
Get used to the high prices for these poles as I dont think there is any room for reducing them. :'( the second hand market for fishing poles for fishing stays robust.
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gardiners slx is value for money though 24ft hxtel £319 slx 22 £278 which would you buy , but have to agree they could be cheaper you can get a fishing pole really cheap now but more people fish i guess
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Hi there,
I have been in this industry, and i can say that you could easily build an Ali pole for around £40.00 (30ft) but thats the raw material cost + clamps, however just like us to our customers the manufacturer has to pay staff,tax get a building market the product etc.. and earn a living. Also Harris poles and the like are very soft ali not the better standard used in example by Brodex.
Glassfibre i couild not comment on, but i think carbon fibre poles are a reasonable price, having worked on F1 carbon fibre bits these are a huge price - the only diference maybe the quality of carbon used.
Darran
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supply and demand and time, these poles will come down in price the higher the demand and in time.
At the moment there are a few pole makers when someone looks into it then they will change the pricing and blow some people in half with prices ( I am not going to make poles by the way I do not have the time to look into it and the questions I see Alex get on here is enough to put off most people lol. None of the comments above are made at Alex in anyway as I use his poles, yet I would love his price to drop by half I cant see it happening this year :(
limited supply will always mean higher prices....
The questions to Alex tend to be about clamps, black residue, adjustments etc etc, all things, that to me, seem crazy.
This is by no means a dig at Gardiners, I buy kit from them, and have had great advice from Alex on here, it's merely questioning poles in general, but as Alex seems to be at the forefront with it all, and has what seems like the most popular tool in the trade...
If I was a plumber, and I needed say an adjustable spanner, I could go to B+Q and buy their value brand one, at £2. That would do a job for me for so long, and I would expect it to be chucked after x amount of days/weeks/months, get what you pay for yeah?
Now, if I was to spend £10 on a Stanley one (or whoever), I would expect it to last me well, not have to constantly adjust it, or worry about residue off the handle, or need to adapt something to make it fit a certain bolt...?!
Seems there is a premium price being asked for the equioment, from ALL suppliers, that simply isn't up to the job.
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spanners have been around over 100yrs so all the problems have been sorted carbon fibre poles and all that goes with them not so long , unfortunately these things take time just wished it was sorted now
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I may be wrong but in manufacturing/machining carbon you always get dust/residue - i think its the nature of the material.
Darran
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Carbon fibre poles for window cleaning are expensive and personally I cannot see that changing any time soon...mores the pity...
But there is a big difference between a carbon fishing pole and a carbon WFP pole, the fishing poles are simply not robust enough by comparison.
I've both the SL1 and the SL2, I was forever breaking the SL1, the SL2 however is way more robust.
After 12 months of continuous use with the SL1 it had to be replaced, and that pole was an adapted fishing pole mostly.
The SL2 was made specifically for WFP, the make up and design of the way in which the carbon fibre is wrapped etc is very different, it's much tougher.
Mine has now been in use for over 18 months and I've only replaced one section and it really is used extensively.
And don't forget that those who develop these poles also have to spend a lot of time and money on R&D.
People moan about the clamps or black residue and so on, but do you really expect perfection from the very onset??
A good job Ford didn't look at the model T and decide that perfection had been achieved eh?
I'll bet that neither Alex or anyone else supplying a similar product could reduce their product by a significant degree and still be solvent.
I've also got a cheapo fibreglass pole, bendy as er....heck ;) I've had to glue the clamps back in place, continually having to adjust them, hands get full of invisible fibreglass splinters that drive you insane!! And even though it is only about 16ft extended, if I'm having to work at an awkward angle it is heavy and unwieldy in comparison to my SL2.
I've also got the Unger aluminium pole...forever consigned to the shed, never to see the light of day again.
Harris poles? If you like them and they suit you then great, but they really are a crap pole by any comparison to a decent carbon pole.
If my carbon poles had to be replaced every year at a cost of £300 or so then I'd do it, no question, and I'd not bother with the much cheaper fishing pole option either as those poles are simply not robust enough. Even though you could buy 3 a year and still be cheaper than a WFP specific carbon pole.
Yep, they are expensive, but worth every penny so far as I am concerned.
Ian.
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nice to hear you have had sl2 for 18 months still debating whether to buy one my hxtel is ok after 12 months but sl2 is lighter which would be far eaiser for wear and tear on body what size do you have
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Ian has posted well, I was typing this while he was posting so if I cover some similar points I apologise :)
Anyone who sells a pole whether it be a Harris pole, a Powerpole, a prolong or an SL-X is doing so for a profit :). The profit margins on most poles is far less than many retailers would be happy with, this is due to high development and manufacturing cost. I imagine that B&Q is on a higher profit margin with the Harris pole than many WFP retailers are making on poles. This is not justification, just fact. To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000, couple this investment with the facilities investment in handling and assembling the stock, the staffing of such a premises and you can see why pole manufacturers/retailers need to make a mark-up. On top of this to develop an injection moulded clamp range costs in excess of £20,00 before you have made/bought a single clamp. All of these have to be factored in to your business' ability to keep trading. Realistically you will not make a bottom line return on a new pole range for a couple of years, by which time you are bringing out another one!
Telescopic poles have been readily available for many years, but traditionally these have been used/suitable for occasional light work. As such they are cheap items made of cheap materials which will made in batches of 200,000 at a time, by probably just one or two factories in the world and then marketed around the world to billions of potential clients. If any WFP retailer (even Ionics') attempted to build 200,000 poles they would simply go out of business. Even Exel's telescopic poles originally were designed for janitorial low level cleaning and the Universal range were designed as tent poles for the military - generally receiving very little use once in position.
Even within the decorating pole market (Harris territory) you can get much better made poles, interestingly the price starts to go up because they are better designed, use better materials and are sold in much lower numbers. I have seen the equivalent to a Harris pole, but much better, for sale at prices in excess of £70. Useless for our needs though as they are too heavy due to the better quality components.
Here we come to the rise of Carbon Fibre in our market. This is now becoming common place and yet is a very expensive material to produce and buy in. Due to being a composite material it does have wear issues (ie. it does wear!) and this will always produce residue. The carbon fibre fishing pole industry is simply enormous and WFP will never be this size as their are more anglers in the UK than WFP'ers worldwide. One problem that we had in the beginning with the Super-Lite was convincing a quality factory to build for us in such small amounts (3-400 poles a year). They usually like to build a minimum of about 200 units a month for outside clients. The other option is going to China. In reality Carbon production in China is now nearly expensive as staying in Europe. It is also a known fact that the quality is not up to European standards.
At the end of the day if the entire WFP market is a rip-off, then others will come along with new products at bargain prices that will out perform the current batch of poles. The reason that Harris, B&Q and others have not done this yet is because the market is too small to invest in. Even the most profitable (published) pole firms are really small fry to most serious retail firms. I know of corner shops that pull in more profit than some of our 'big' WFP names.
As window cleaners we are at the cutting edge of a new industry which although was conceived of several decades ago is now only really starting to develop. New products, new techniques, new problems are going to part of this industry for quite a while. We as window cleaners have two choices. - 1. Stick with it and develop and grow with the industry or 2. Quit and go back to ladders where life was a lot simpler.
I know which one I'm going to do :D
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thanks alex that has given me a far greater insight
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Great, informal reply. Good to get an insider's view on things.
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Yeah but the harris pole is sold in massive volume compared to wfp's surely.
To make money and stay in business, you either need to sell a lot of something and make a small profit on each item, or sell less but make a bigger profit on each.
B&Q sell squillions of their harris poles, wfp makers do not because there are only so many window cleaners. Therefore, they are more expensive.
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Just to bring up the point about fishing poles. The pole that I have seen mentioned on this forum and others suitable for wfp is about £60/70. This is a very cheap pole by fishing standards. Although it is designed for carp fishing, you get what you pay for and if it breaks, which it most likely will at some point having hooked a large carp then don't be surprised. There are roach poles which can cost over £200, and the average roach weighs about 1 1/2 lbs. So, my point is, as with everything, you get what you pay. The higher the cost, the better materials used in production.
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Don't forget the harris pole is aimed at the diy market. B&Q could afford to sell it at a loss provided the customer buys all his other materials from the store. When you buy a Harris pole have a good look at the quality (there isn't any).
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Ian has posted well, I was typing this while he was posting so if I cover some similar points I apologise :)
Anyone who sells a pole whether it be a Harris pole, a Powerpole, a prolong or an SL-X is doing so for a profit :). The profit margins on most poles is far less than many retailers would be happy with, this is due to high development and manufacturing cost. I imagine that B&Q is on a higher profit margin with the Harris pole than many WFP retailers are making on poles. This is not justification, just fact. To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000, couple this investment with the facilities investment in handling and assembling the stock, the staffing of such a premises and you can see why pole manufacturers/retailers need to make a mark-up. On top of this to develop an injection moulded clamp range costs in excess of £20,00 before you have made/bought a single clamp. All of these have to be factored in to your business' ability to keep trading. Realistically you will not make a bottom line return on a new pole range for a couple of years, by which time you are bringing out another one!
Telescopic poles have been readily available for many years, but traditionally these have been used/suitable for occasional light work. As such they are cheap items made of cheap materials which will made in batches of 200,000 at a time, by probably just one or two factories in the world and then marketed around the world to billions of potential clients. If any WFP retailer (even Ionics') attempted to build 200,000 poles they would simply go out of business. Even Exel's telescopic poles originally were designed for janitorial low level cleaning and the Universal range were designed as tent poles for the military - generally receiving very little use once in position.
Even within the decorating pole market (Harris territory) you can get much better made poles, interestingly the price starts to go up because they are better designed, use better materials and are sold in much lower numbers. I have seen the equivalent to a Harris pole, but much better, for sale at prices in excess of £70. Useless for our needs though as they are too heavy due to the better quality components.
Here we come to the rise of Carbon Fibre in our market. This is now becoming common place and yet is a very expensive material to produce and buy in. Due to being a composite material it does have wear issues (ie. it does wear!) and this will always produce residue. The carbon fibre fishing pole industry is simply enormous and WFP will never be this size as their are more anglers in the UK than WFP'ers worldwide. One problem that we had in the beginning with the Super-Lite was convincing a quality factory to build for us in such small amounts (3-400 poles a year). They usually like to build a minimum of about 200 units a month for outside clients. The other option is going to China. In reality Carbon production in China is now nearly expensive as staying in Europe. It is also a known fact that the quality is not up to European standards.
At the end of the day if the entire WFP market is a rip-off, then others will come along with new products at bargain prices that will out perform the current batch of poles. The reason that Harris, B&Q and others have not done this yet is because the market is too small to invest in. Even the most profitable (published) pole firms are really small fry to most serious retail firms. I know of corner shops that pull in more profit than some of our 'big' WFP names.
As window cleaners we are at the cutting edge of a new industry which although was conceived of several decades ago is now only really starting to develop. New products, new techniques, new problems are going to part of this industry for quite a while. We as window cleaners have two choices. - 1. Stick with it and develop and grow with the industry or 2. Quit and go back to ladders where life was a lot simpler.
I know which one I'm going to do :D
Good reply Alex. The numbers you come up with don't surprise me. One of my customers in a company that works in moulding. One of the managers was telling me one day the sort of cost with just setting up a mould. Obviously, the larger the run the more it pays for itself but smaller runs would mean a higher product price - especially if the product is likely to be succeeded 2 - 3 years down the line.
Although I do have some clamping issues with the SLX (particularly the no1 clamp), it is still far and away the best pole I have used. Indeed, I may have been struggling without a light pole as after a year of WFP, I started to get a problem with elbow and shoulder.
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i wonder if the ones moaning are the ones that moan that there are too many wfp cleaners in there area, why because the price to set up is way too cheap, bentley brushes/harris poles/back packs and also people selling water to there competitors, the prices are going to drop soon at this rate, the higher the prices the better I say
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Quote Alex Gardiner:
“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”
This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.
I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop. ;D
You could say the same about the cost of window cleaning Ewan. I bet your not too quick to tell your customers the profit you make, yet probably quite willing to explain your costs.
I see it no different to any type of supplier, be it window cleaning or food sales.
I doubt there is actually a huge demand for professional pole sales, so in effect the less you make the more expensive they are, with materials and manufacturing costs.
Only way pole costs are going to be low, is when you bulk buy material and manufactures time producing and mass produce. That will never happen with carbon poles. There will never be that much of a demand, to demand a mass production = lower costs.
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Ewan,
Can't find anything to agree with you on with this topic....
I'm a window cleaner and have to buy poles for my system, I'd love to be able to buy them for pennies, and would also love to believe your cynical views in that manufacturers are ripping us off...mind you, I can think of a couple of suppliers that might fall into that category, but then again maybe not, as I'm well aware they spend a fortune developing their goods.
AS others have said, (inferred) the window cleaning industry simply isn't big enough to have the kind of production lines in place to be able develop and supply carbon poles at bargain basement prices.
Take a look at the Unger carbon pole...bloody thing is a hugely expensive and over engineered product, no way would that ever compete on price with the likes of any of Alex's poles.
I hope that pole manufacturers are making a healthy profit, doing so will allow them to plough more money into further R&D, but the market isn't that big and therefore competition for that market will be intense, which further means that prices for poles are as competitive as they can be.
Vast companies like B&Q have far deeper pockets than all of the current window cleaning suppliers all lumped together, but can you really see the likes of them getting into serious pole development or even wanting to supply the handful of window cleaners out there that they might attract? Most of their window cleaning gear is strictly DIY anyway....
Did you see the price of that Dutch company's gear for internal WFP poles etc? And you think our home grown suppliers are expensive!? :o
I was chatting to the guys at their stall at the cleaning show, I mentioned that their poles were very good, but that their goosenecks and brush assemblies were so heavy that it made a mockery of the gains made in their lightweight poles.
He didn't agree, he said that because of the lightness of their poles it made no difference...I walked away at that point, as he must be a numbnuts if he actually believed what he was spouting.
Perhaps these kind of suppliers rip us off with hugely overinflated prices, especially when compared to the likes of Gardiner poles and other home grown pole suppliers...which might also perhaps indicate that the prices currently being charged are not that bad at all....
nice to hear you have had sl2 for 18 months still debating whether to buy one my hxtel is ok after 12 months but sl2 is lighter which would be far eaiser for wear and tear on body what size do you have
I have the 35ft SL2 and love it, you have to get used to using a modular pole, but that is no biggy, I have both telescopic (fibreglass) and modular poles, but mostly prefer to use my SL2 (as does my girlfriend who works alongside me) Telescopic may be more convenient, but the advantages of the SL2 far outweigh them in most circumstances.
Ian
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IN YOUR FACE EWAN lol
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Ian, you don’t agree that pole prices should be lower? So you will be happy to pay nearly £2,500 for 72ft pole? (If you need to buy one)
So basically when the poles prices do drop (because they can & will drop), I will resurrect this thread (if I can find it) and people can read again what they have posted.
All I read into this is some people jumping to the defence of manufacturers with a justification of why & how pole prices are what they are, based on liking the manufacture/product and general knowledge about economics and product development. All due respect but you don’t understand only the manufacturers do. All you can do is complain about the prices. Or in this case applaud the manufacturers.
I will say it again there too expensive, this market is growing and there is a lag in the reduction of prices for these poles. This is easily put to the test when next you part with money for a carbon fibre pole, how does it feel to part with so much money. Can you honestly say you are happy to pay the full price for that pole?
Why on earth would any current manufacture drop there prices and reduce there profits! They wouldn’t there’s no reason to and there certainly not much request for a drop in price from the consumer, not on here anyway.
Im not sticking up for pole prices..
BUT
would you be so accommodating to your customers if they requested a 50% price reduction for example?
I doubt it, you will tell them where to go (kindly) and deal with new customers who are willing to pay your prices.
Pole prices will only drop once there is greater competition amongst manufacturers, and lower costs all round, in materials and manufacturing costs and more end users wanting them.
This is how it is for every new product and service not just poles.
But if you want to start and petition and lobby all carbon pole manufacturers for cheaper prices, please do start one and I will be most willing to stick my name on it.
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Ewan,
Quote Alex Gardiner:
“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”
This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.
I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop. ;D
The figures you use above would indicate a 500% profit margin on Carbon Fibre poles. If this were true I would be a very happy individual :) The prices I was talking about are trade prices not retail.
Currently we make a larger profit margin on most of our fibre glass Exel poles we sell than our Carbon Fibre ranges. If anything I can only see a price increase happening with our carbon fibre products rather than a reduction.
I realise that our profit margin is not going to be the same as some other firms, so I can only speak for our firm.
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Ewan if you are so sure that we are being over charged for our poles and people are making 500% profit from them then i suggest you pack in window cleaning and start making poles for the rest of us and make yourself a fortune, although some of your posts do encourage a good debate most of your comments are just unfounded hot air without research to prove your conclusions.
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Because that's how much they cost to produce, plus a little bit to keep the company afloat. :)
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Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?
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Ewan,
Quote Alex Gardiner:
“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”
This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.
I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop. ;D
The figures you use above would indicate a 500% profit margin on Carbon Fibre poles. If this were true I would be a very happy individual :) The prices I was talking about are trade prices not retail.
Currently we make a larger profit margin on most of our fibre glass Exel poles we sell than our Carbon Fibre ranges. If anything I can only see a price increase happening with our carbon fibre products rather than a reduction.
I realise that our profit margin is not going to be the same as some other firms, so I can only speak for our firm.
Spoken like a true manufacturer Alex, good comeback extinguish the talk of price reduction with a price increase.
I take it you referring to margin percentage with the fibreglass poles.
Alex I’m not entirely convinced that carbon fibre pole prices cannot be reduced, referring to all manufacturers and not just your poles. Being a manufacturer can you tell me why or solid reasons for the current asking prices of these poles?
(Just for the record I think you have done a great job with the SL-X)
If you don't want to pay that price, don't buy one.
Pretty simple really :)
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Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?
LOL, yes of course and I have
Is that why you are moaning about the price of carbon poles?
I go fishing and I use carbon poles for that, by all means I see people use fibreglass and cheap end carbon poles, they can hardly use them because of the weight.
I on the other hand I have no problems using them, fibregass poles cost £50-£150, my pole cost over £600.
See you get what you pay for.
It still baffles me as to the mentality of some window cleaners on here, they want to bring in £0000's per week, but they are not prepared to spend a few hundred quid on equipment.
You have to speculate to accumilate.
Matt
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No, there over priced
How do you base this statement? So far all i seem to read is peoples opinions but not actual factual figured calculations.
what figures are you actually working from.
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This thread has gone a bit belly up, I just wanted to question the costings behind them, as being new to the trade, they do seem incredibly expensive, however, I do want to invest in the best tools for my body and my business, and have to pay the going rate, which is what it is, and I can't change that.
Until someone comes up with a keenly priced alternative, it's pay your money, take your choice time.
Alex, thanks for the response, you didn't need to go into so much detail about your business, and I hope you didn't feel singled out, as it was not my intention to do so.
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aye ;D
now dont get me started on the price of brooms, i mean brushes...
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You’re a little to quick with your post GWCS, see my amended previous post
which one?
nothing relates to the question i asked ::)
No, there over priced matt, and you don’t get what you pay for, is there such as thing as heavy carbon fibre!
Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?
LOL, yes of course and I have
Ewan,
Quote Alex Gardiner:
“To make a Carbon pole range really work you have to hold a carbon stock of about £80,000-£100,000,”
This is Retail price you are talking about Alex; otherwise you’re telling me you have possibly up to £500,000 worth of stock that you keep running out of. I don’t think so.
I like your SL-X Alex and I think you have addressed a couple of issues with poles for window cleaners. But I stand firm and say Carbon fibre poles are too expensive. All manufactures are to eager to explain there cost (although ambiguously) But are never eager to explain there profits! (Understandably) But the only thing that will change my mind about the price of these poles is a price drop. ;D
The figures you use above would indicate a 500% profit margin on Carbon Fibre poles. If this were true I would be a very happy individual :) The prices I was talking about are trade prices not retail.
Currently we make a larger profit margin on most of our fibre glass Exel poles we sell than our Carbon Fibre ranges. If anything I can only see a price increase happening with our carbon fibre products rather than a reduction.
I realise that our profit margin is not going to be the same as some other firms, so I can only speak for our firm.
Spoken like a true manufacturer Alex, good comeback extinguish the talk of price reduction with a price increase.
I take it you referring to margin percentage with the fibreglass poles.
Alex I’m not entirely convinced that carbon fibre pole prices cannot be reduced, referring to all manufacturers and not just your poles. Being a manufacturer can you tell me why or solid reasons for the current asking prices of these poles?
(Just for the record I think you have done a great job with the SL-X)
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Ewan, I doubt you have even seen a Gardiners pole let alone used one. If you had done your googling properly you would find out that Gardiners already offer the best value carbon poles on the market so really I think you are picking on the wrong guy.
I would doubt very much that carbon is going to reduce in price in the foreseeable future - in fact the Sl2sections have shot up in price over the last year. People have already said if you don't want to spend the money then don't buy one it's as simple as that. If the demand wasn't there then Gardiners would stop making them as would everyone else who supplies the market.
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Slightly off subject,but with a relative theme,i clean the windows for a large stainless steel tube manufacturer and showed him the frame on my Ionics system with an aim for having a diy system in my new van while having it look professionally made,yet on a budget and he wanted £1700 (cash) to supply and make the frame. The only consolation being that he said the Ionics frame is acid dipped and not polished.If it were to be polished it would have a mirror finish. So,on top of the frame,i buy a tank,pump(s),controller etc etc. Probabably wouldn't save a fortune. I am certainly not fighting Ionics corner,however, if turnover is on a mass scale then quite obviously build prices are reduced.
Anyone Googled carbon tube manufacturers?
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I should think research and development,rejection of prototypes etc must make up a significant cost. As long as people keep buying then the prices won't be reduced will they? Would VW reduce the cost of their (Transporter) vans so people who couldn't previously afford one suddenly find them obtainable? Thats not a dig at you Ewan as you do have a very valid point(s).
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I should think research and development,rejection of prototypes etc must make up a significant cost. As long as people keep buying then the prices won't be reduced will they? Would VW reduce the cost of their (Transporter) vans so people who couldn't previously afford one suddenly find them obtainable? Thats not a dig at you Ewan as you do have a very valid point(s).
why do you charge what you do for window cleaning??
Customers can leave you if they want, they dont hve to demand a reason for every penny you charge them
And as if you lowered your prices
Behave
Are not enough forum members rising anymore that you must pick on suppliers now
Anyway you were mr.. what does it matter what it costs if its earning you money etc
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Ewan would you drop the price you charge your customers just because they think your too expensive?
LOL, yes of course and I have
Is that why you are moaning about the price of carbon poles?
I go fishing and I use carbon poles for that, by all means I see people use fibreglass and cheap end carbon poles, they can hardly use them because of the weight.
I on the other hand I have no problems using them, fibregass poles cost £50-£150, my pole cost over £600.
See you get what you pay for.
It still baffles me as to the mentality of some window cleaners on here, they want to bring in £0000's per week, but they are not prepared to spend a few hundred quid on equipment.
You have to speculate to accumilate.
Matt
couldnt agree moreNo, there over priced
How do you base this statement? So far all i seem to read is peoples opinions but not actual factual figured calculations.
what figures are you actually working from.
Well for a start, the weight of some (so called) carbon fibre poles.
It’s amazing what you can do when marketing a product, don’t you think!
Do you know what a Fusion is or a Glider for that matter just when can you call a wfp a Carbon Fibre WFP?
Silly question or is it!
by the way its Glyder ;D ;D
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What supplier was i picking on? I have 3 different makes of vans, Facelift and Gardiner poles,diy and Ionics systems. If you re-read my post i was making a relevent point as to why supplies shouldn't reduce their prices.
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Ewan, I doubt you have even seen a Gardiners pole let alone used one. If you had done your googling properly you would find out that Gardiners already offer the best value carbon poles on the market so really I think you are picking on the wrong guy.
I would doubt very much that carbon is going to reduce in price in the foreseeable future - in fact the Sl2sections have shot up in price over the last year. People have already said if you don't want to spend the money then don't buy one it's as simple as that. If the demand wasn't there then Gardiners would stop making them as would everyone else who supplies the market.
You’re hardly the person to listen to on this ftp, what you called yourself “A Gardiner’s snob” that says it all really. Maybe if you try a few other poles you will be able to make comparisons, but I doubt even then if you will be able to be objective on any pole.
I see Alex hasn’t got round to answering this basic question below, but then again he did mention prices of his pole will more than likely go up in the future, which you have already taken onboard without question.
Alex I’m not entirely convinced that carbon fibre pole prices cannot be reduced, referring to all manufacturers and not just your poles. Being a manufacturer can you tell me why or solid reasons for the current asking prices of these poles?
I am sure that some retailers could reduce their prices and still make a healthy profit. Speaking for our firm, if we were to reduce the % margin on our Carbon poles we might as well stop selling them as they would actually be costing us money, by the time you factored in the substantial retail costs we have. Carbon is very expensive and there is nothing that we or any others can do about it. A % margin has to be added on top of this to cover business expenses and provide a profit for those running the business.
This year has been extremely busy and productive for us in the firm, but the directors of the firm have made no profit at all this year, because of the investments we have been making. This is not trying to say that we are 'hard done by' at all, just that it can be very costly bringing out new products and profit is often the last thing on our minds whilst doing so.
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What supplier was i picking on? I have 3 different makes of vans, Facelift and Gardiner poles,diy and Ionics systems. If you re-read my post i was making a relevent point as to why supplies shouldn't reduce their prices.
Not you bud :)
meant to quote ewan :)
sorry
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Phew,i didn't want to upset anyone,i was just trying to be impartial!
You meant Ewan didn't you,bless him. :)
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Alex don't rise to this.. I do have a couple of niggles with the MK3 SL-X but thats it...I do not think you need to justify yourself or indeed your business.
If I wish to buy your product then ok..if I want to discuss any issues with that pole on here fine..but I and people like me do not need to know about the workings of YOUR business.
I write this with respect Alex and in no way is this a 'pop' more support than anything.
Dave.
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Alex don't rise to this.. I do have a couple of niggles with the MK3 SL-X but thats it...I do not think you need to justify yourself or indeed your business.
If I wish to buy your product then ok..if I want to discuss any issues with that pole on here fine..but I and people like me do not need to know about the workings of YOUR business.
Respectfully
Dave.
As i said, I was only asking about the relative prices, didn't want it to turn into a bitch fest!!
::)
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alex's is possibly the smallest pole manufacturing company in the uk producing the best poles and at a good price great praise to alex and co, quality products at quality prices
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EWAN
its past bed time, mummy is calling :)
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I can hear her shouting :D
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Alex don't rise to this.. I do have a couple of niggles with the MK3 SL-X but thats it...I do not think you need to justify yourself or indeed your business.
If I wish to buy your product then ok..if I want to discuss any issues with that pole on here fine..but I and people like me do not need to know about the workings of YOUR business.
I write this with respect Alex and in no way is this a 'pop' more support than anything.
Dave.
If that was reference to my post it was supporting and not as I said aimed at Alex.
I justify myself to my wife and my aqccountant (she is worse than my wife for nagging)
p
PRICES WILL COME DOWN i WOULD BET MONEY ON IT, JUST A TIME FACTOR....
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One pint of stillage Bass they wont come down ???
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You get what you pay for. As an example I ride race bikes for fitness and a hoby. I have just bought a Trek 5.2 Madone,2009 model. The carbon fibre is high modulas carbon but boy oh boy the ride quality is light years ahead of any bike under £2000.00. Why the high cost for the bike? Its down to ROD costs,It took over 3 years to develop the bike and cost a fortune. I for one know I ride one of the best bikes ever made because of ROD and I have been riding bikes for over 40 years.
I been wfp for 4 years now and the choice and quality in poles is far better then 4 years ago, 4 years ago Ionics bought out their Ergo-light pole it cost for their 35' model £795.95 + VAT,6x6' sections,weight 3.8 kg, Ergo- Lite glass Fibre 35' 7x6' sections, weight 3.8 kg £498.95. Universal Glass fibre 34' 6x6' 7.65kg £312.95.
Now in cycling the golden rule is the lighter the bike or parts for the bike the more you pay and to get the very lightest costs you far more percentage wise then heavier parts or heavier bikes.
Now Compare the prices for the 35' pole from 4 years ago to the Slx 35'pole:- £490.00,7 sections, 1995g. Thats £300.00 cheaper BUt half the weight plus its shorter in length and is also smaller in the handle diamater.Its a bargin in real money terms,
if it was a racing bike youwould be paying a small fortune. Now back to the Trek bike the 2009 model is the same as the 2008 model other then its colour but the price went up £200.00. the 2010 bike is exactly the same other then colour the price as incresed another £500.00.So in 2 yeras its gone up £700.00.Now compare the slx in comparision its a steal for the money and the wear and tear it will save on your body is worth the cost.I for one appreciate the efforts people like Alex put into the industry and the benefical effects we get as a result.
You get what you pay for.
Neil
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Quote:
'You’re hardly the person to listen to on this ftp, what you called yourself “A Gardiner’s snob” that says it all really. Maybe if you try a few other poles you will be able to make comparisons, but I doubt even then if you will be able to be objective on any pole.'
Well, there's a good reason for this: Gardiners make the products that I want/need at a reasonable price in my opinion. If there was an alternative in quality and price then it's quite likely I would also look at that. I looked seriously at Facelift carbon poles some time ago - they were more expensive by a long way and too long when collapsed. I've had cheaper glassfibre poles and they were dreadful and wore out in weeks rather than months. I've also had carbon carp poles - brilliant but far too fragile for me.
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One pint of stillage Bass they wont come down ???
do you have a big bushy beard?
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One pint of stillage Bass they wont come down ???
I'm not betting you Jeff, you a hussler ;D face like butter would not melt but I have met you before at windex and know different lol ;)
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where are these poles made / is it in this country / i mean where is the origin ? i was talking to a chinese guy who exports garden tractors and he got excited when he thought i might want a wfp of china make - seems theyv got em over there
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I expect they use bamboo over there?
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bamboo, hey thats a thought ! ;D this chinese guy really was desperate to sell, like a yellow version of DEL BOY , and in no time at all he had found a pole factory. now iv no need for a pole of any sort, but it just shows the yellow perils are at making them
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There is no keener DIY enthusiast than me. I am constantly trying one thing or another, I jet my own brushes and try out different ones, make my own swivels, and use the Harris pole for 95% of my work.
I did lash out over £800 for the SL2, and consider it money very well spent.
Carbon is expensive, but a hell of a lot cheaper than titanium.
Anyone like to have a go at making a titanium pole?
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Ewan - I am not defending the pole manufacturers but i think you lack the experience to understand their position
I personally feel a carbon pole price is reasonable, and will hopefully be getting one soon - there is far more than material cost involved ( as already stated )
If you find the price to high a, dont buy one b, try to make your own - see if you can and the cost!
Also when you buy a bag of chips at £1.00 moan to the shop owner that you only got 10p's worth of potatoe?
And as your squeegee and bucket cost you a tenner and you have 300 cust'y now only going to charge 30p a clean ?
i think not...!
I have been in manufacturing for 25 years and basically the general public just want cheap cheap cheap - so we have lost our finest engineering companies to china and india -
At least Alex is providing a quality item
Darran
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What clamped carbon pole do you use Ewan?
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The way I read it Alex said his prices couldn't come down.
Why twist things around Ewan? Do you just like arguing or what?
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Will you guys not take Ewan quite so seriously. I am convinced he just likes winding people up (even if he does it sub-consciously).
And NO, he will not tell you which pole he uses, he has been asked several times, including by me - and it is a closely guarded secret!
Wishing you well Ewan.
Regards dd
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Yep, you just like arguing.
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It was a simple question Ewan - you have a pole that can be collapsed in less than three seconds so I asked which pole you used. Why be so evasive?
Your Quote:
I can easily lower a clamped pole from third floor to ground floor windows in less than 3 seconds and be cleaning the windows.
And Alex's quote was: Currently we make a larger profit margin on most of our fibre glass Exel poles we sell than our Carbon Fibre ranges. If anything I can only see a price increase happening with our carbon fibre products rather than a reduction
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He's gone off to do his rounds. The 8 o'clock round has to be done, then he can tick the box and settle down for another 2 hours in front of his monitor
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He's gone off to do his rounds. The 8 o'clock round has to be done, then he can tick the box and settle down for another 2 hours in front of his monitor
;D
Some squirrel has set off the fence alarm.
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Not too bright are you Ewan? I was discussing prices - you tried to say that Alex was agreeing with you that prices could come down whereas he was saying as far as he was concerned his brand was more likely to go up. A childish comment? Hardly.
I asked what pole you used? Another childish comment? Hardly.
What's wrong with you sonny?
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He's gone off to do his rounds. The 8 o'clock round has to be done, then he can tick the box and settle down for another 2 hours in front of his monitor
;D
Some squirrel has set off the fence alarm.
Probably the same squirrel as the other night. :'(
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I think in any business you have to have the best mark up you can get away with, competition has a heck of a lot to do with this.
When there is little competition you can get away with more,
regardless of the "costs to make" posts....
At the moment there is little competition within the wfp industry.
Why dont some of the larger manufacturer of water fed poles expand to lots of different areas of the country?
even open outlets where you can walk around and buy ?
That may help us, and stop more competition doing it.
If i could afford i would certainly have outlets in major towns, selling the lot.
We must be the only average workforce to have to buy our "tools" via mail order only / internet.
Unless you are lucky enough to live near the few manufacturers.
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now where is that " do not feed the trolls " pic ?? ?
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I think in any business you have to have the best mark up you can get away with, competition has a heck of a lot to do with this.
When there is little competition you can get away with more,
regardless of the "costs to make" posts....
At the moment there is little competition within the wfp industry.
Why dont some of the larger manufacturer of water fed poles expand to lots of different areas of the country?
even open outlets where you can walk around and buy ?
That may help us, and stop more competition doing it.
If i could afford i would certainly have outlets in major towns, selling the lot.
We must be the only average workforce to have to buy our "tools" via mail order only / internet.
Unless you are lucky enough to live near the few manufacturers.
How big do you think the market is? This would only work if water fed poles could be sold to the majority of the population. If we were selling decorating poles then it would make sense to have a B&Q type outlet in every major town. However, the target market in every major town may only be 50 people. This would never support retail overheads.
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Well, I've just read this WHOLE topic & it's quite clear, the only one who doesn't understand is Ewan! ::)
I ain't got nowt else to comment & ain't getting dragged in to this baby! ;D
BUT, like said, it is VERY clear, the one lacking that is! ;)
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I agree with gazzasp8.
It's very good of alex to be so frank with us and let us into his mindset. I have to disagree with a couple of his comments;about making more on xtels than supalites.
He supplies himself and probably at the same or similar price he supplies the other suppliers, but as a manufacturer he would also be making a profit.What is less easy to factor is the developement costs and any on going product recall type costs (supplying new cam levers etc).
Niggles aside i am very pleased with my slx's and my supalite.This thread was started by a newbie asking why carbon wfp are so expensive.There have been some good answers, but the trend is that all the experienced guys have one mainly because they make the work easier.
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now where is that " do not feed the trolls " pic ?? ?
;)
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When the first SLX came out Gardiners could easily have added £100 to the price of the twenty five foot pole, still been competitive and still sold them demand was so high.
What price then Ewan do you think carbon telescopic poles should be selling for?
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I personally would pay more money for a stronger and stiffer 60 ft pole.
I have 3 supalite 2 poles, which take a great deal of abuse as Alex will testify.
I have recently used them at over 84 ft and wouldn't mind paying more if the pole was just as light or nearly as light, but slightly stiffer and didnt break or chip as easily as they do.
I realise for what I want it is going to cost me, but on the other hand it will also cost my competition more, which they are not always be prepared to pay for.
If they were too cheap then I would lose my competative edge, because then every one else could afford one.
Alex
Are there any developments to improve the Sl2
Dave
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I am happy to pay the price of an slx & sl2. I & others with brains which function in a normal manner can understand & appreciate the investment, effort & risk involved with their creation, manufacture & marketing. They make their cut & we get better tools to make our life easier, more profitable etc.
There are cheaper options for those who can't see this & are happy to work with crap!
Accept it, move onwards & upwards. ;)
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I personally would pay more money for a stronger and stiffer 60 ft pole.
I have 3 supalite 2 poles, which take a great deal of abuse as Alex will testify.
I have recently used them at over 84 ft and wouldn't mind paying more if the pole was just as light or nearly as light, but slightly stiffer and didnt break or chip as easily as they do.
I realise for what I want it is going to cost me, but on the other hand it will also cost my competition more, which they are not always be prepared to pay for.
If they were too cheap then I would lose my competative edge, because then every one else could afford one.
Alex
Are there any developments to improve the Sl2
Dave
How many sections did you get up to in the end Dave and have you finished the job yet? There will be further developments for the SL2 but not until next year. There is also a possibility of an SL3 which may or may not run parallel to the SL2 in the product range. The developments on the SL2 will not affect the carbon content at all and indeed not change the sections at all but will consist of fitment changes which will easily be retro-fitted for anyone who currently uses the SL2. The development of an SL3 is still undecided. We have two separate designs which will need further testing and development.
It will be very hard to beat the weight and rigidity of the SL2 as it currently is the stiffest, lightest modular pole in the world (not exaggerating!). An SL3 would offer a different solution for a different market but would probably be slightly heavier.
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Who in their right mind would want a 70ft telescopic?
Where do you get £2500 from? ???
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Ahhh - the light dawns
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Who in their right mind would want a 70ft telescopic?
Where do you get £2500 from? ???
Facelift do one £2k plus vat, I know what you are going to say but I’ve never used a modular.
I have only just brought a zensor flex 8m pole which I have not yet had a chance to male into a wfp.(just for fun mind to shut some of you up)
Dude, don't go telescopic at those heights. SL2 approx £800 for what you need, be easier to use too!
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So you buy a 60' S2 and two spare sections - less than £1000
Not too bright are you Ewan?
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You can hire mine Ewan.
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I've got a 44ft facelift & trust me, I wouldn't want it to be 45ft!!!!!!
I know the new F1 carbon is supposed to be better but come'on, you can't be serious?
A modular is the only option for what you need!
You could keep it a secret that you took advice from me too! ;)
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Borrow mine - they are difficult to use though - you have to move them up and down. I doubt you would understand it Ewan.
It's from Gardiners too - sorry.
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Borrow mine - they are difficult to use though - you have to move them up and down. I doubt you would understand it Ewan.
It's from Gardiners too - sorry.
The joints all freshly lubed with cyanide! ;D ;D ;D
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macmac ;D ;D ;D
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The joints all freshly lubed with cyanide! ;D ;D ;D
He's being naughty now ;D
Anyway Ewan, if you want a pole for a day or two email me
matt@oakleywindowcleaning.co.uk
Sure we can come to some sort of arrangement.
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Just as long as it reaches the overhead power cables is all that matters.
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When the first SLX came out Gardiners could easily have added £100 to the price of the twenty five foot pole, still been competitive and still sold them demand was so high.
What price then Ewan do you think carbon telescopic poles should be selling for?
I suppose my gripe is I need one of those 70ft plus poles, but I am finding it hard to justify the price tag of nearly £2,500, so far the customer has agreed to pay for the pole for the work to be done, but there’s no cash profit, it’s a one off job and I will be stuck with a pole I no longer need. With regards to this pole £1,500 would have been OK. Is it possible to have a 70ft plus telescopic pole for that price?
i have a 50 ft job to do, i need 2 more sections for my pole, i wouldnt dream of asking / letting the customer pay for it, just not professional, infact you have just made yourself look really tinpot
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When the first SLX came out Gardiners could easily have added £100 to the price of the twenty five foot pole, still been competitive and still sold them demand was so high.
What price then Ewan do you think carbon telescopic poles should be selling for?
Talking for Gardiner’s again ftp, telling us all how they could have put an extra £100 on the pole, by the sounds of it with you he could have put an extra £200 on, Alex must be kicking himself LOL.
I am talking about all carbon fibre poles not just Gardiner’s poles, Alex has already said other manufactures could drop there price and still make a good profit.
I just said the poles are over priced, just wanted others views on this.
I suppose my gripe is I need one of those 70ft plus poles, but I am finding it hard to justify the price tag of nearly £2,500, so far the customer has agreed to pay for the pole for the work to be done, but there’s no cash profit, it’s a one off job and I will be stuck with a pole I no longer need. With regards to this pole £1,500 would have been OK. Is it possible to have a 70ft plus telescopic pole for that price?
With regards to the 70ft+ poles (Ionics 68ft actual length), it is possible that we may in the future produce a 69ft telescopic Super-Max pole (actual length, reach 73ft). If we were to do this it would have to be made of high modulus carbon fibre similar to our SL2 but of thicker wall structure. If we were to bring this to market I would need to sell it for £1600 +VAT. Due to the fact that this would be an 11 section pole (a world first, the current Super-Max47 holds the record with 10 sections), the closed length would still be fairly manageable. Whilst a Super-Lite would be considerably lighter to work with at these heights, I realize that sometimes telescopic is important. It's worth remembering though that with a lot of telescopic poles at this length, the clamps are so high up that you might as well be working with a modular for convenience.
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I think it’s about time many of the so called professional people allow Ewen some slack as the question he asks it a normal customer question, which we all need to ask in these time. Our crusty ask us from time to time to justify our prices. I think these need to be asked in these times and I sure Alex can cope the heat it might create. I also think to hint of brainless or normal thinking in the form of a hint is unfair to Ewen as he asks the question we do not have the balls to ask. I am not saying his right or wrong, but we need to allow this form of debate it’s healthy. Thanks Ewe you stick to your guns mate.
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I think it’s about time many of the so called professional people allow Ewen some slack as the question he asks it a normal customer question, which we all need to ask in these time. Our crusty ask us from time to time to justify our prices. I think these need to be asked in these times and I sure Alex can cope the heat it might create. I also think to hint of brainless or normal thinking in the form of a hint is unfair to Ewen as he asks the question we do not have the balls to ask. I am not saying his right or wrong, but we need to allow this form of debate it’s healthy. Thanks Ewe you stick to your guns mate.
You been on the beer?
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I think in any business you have to have the best mark up you can get away with, competition has a heck of a lot to do with this.
When there is little competition you can get away with more,
regardless of the "costs to make" posts....
At the moment there is little competition within the wfp industry.
Why dont some of the larger manufacturer of water fed poles expand to lots of different areas of the country?
even open outlets where you can walk around and buy ?
That may help us, and stop more competition doing it.
If i could afford i would certainly have outlets in major towns, selling the lot.
We must be the only average workforce to have to buy our "tools" via mail order only / internet.
Unless you are lucky enough to live near the few manufacturers.
How big do you think the market is? This would only work if water fed poles could be sold to the majority of the population. If we were selling decorating poles then it would make sense to have a B&Q type outlet in every major town. However, the target market in every major town may only be 50 people. This would never support retail overheads.
the market will be large enough one day,..hence move into outlets early , before someone acts as agents in cleaning suppy outlets, ....its worth a try,... you have already said you could easily mark it up anothert £100...
just another option.
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I think in any business you have to have the best mark up you can get away with, competition has a heck of a lot to do with this.
When there is little competition you can get away with more,
regardless of the "costs to make" posts....
At the moment there is little competition within the wfp industry.
Why dont some of the larger manufacturer of water fed poles expand to lots of different areas of the country?
even open outlets where you can walk around and buy ?
That may help us, and stop more competition doing it.
If i could afford i would certainly have outlets in major towns, selling the lot.
We must be the only average workforce to have to buy our "tools" via mail order only / internet.
Unless you are lucky enough to live near the few manufacturers.
How big do you think the market is? This would only work if water fed poles could be sold to the majority of the population. If we were selling decorating poles then it would make sense to have a B&Q type outlet in every major town. However, the target market in every major town may only be 50 people. This would never support retail overheads.
the market will be large enough one day,..hence move into outlets early , before someone acts as agents in cleaning suppy outlets, ....its worth a try,... you have already said you could easily mark it up anothert £100...
just another option.
Not my words :).
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Alex
We had 14 sections in total on the pole, at this height it became a bit bendy and really slow and hard work.
I lost all notion that it was really stiff and strong at lower heights, maybe I found its "real" useable working height.
I maybe could have used another section or 2 but that would of been the absolute max to be of any use.
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Dave at those heights.....isnt it difficult to get any pressure transfered from the brush-head to the glass?
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Matt the whole pole wants to fall into the wall, so all the weight is leaning that way.
It's all down to how much you scrub and rinse, slow and steady is the game, I use a flocked vikan at that height, I dont just leave it to chance.
In fact the windows at 6 storey came cleaner than all the ones below the 4th floor, I learnt i spent twice as long on windows above the 4th floor because of the slower movements, so it is all down to the time on the glass.
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Interesting, cheers.
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A well thought-out, and well presented, response, Ewan.
But why can’t all your postings be like that, instead of many being so (hurried and) provocative.
Mike
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When the first SLX came out Gardiners could easily have added £100 to the price of the twenty five foot pole, still been competitive and still sold them demand was so high.
What price then Ewan do you think carbon telescopic poles should be selling for?
I suppose my gripe is I need one of those 70ft plus poles, but I am finding it hard to justify the price tag of nearly £2,500, so far the customer has agreed to pay for the pole for the work to be done, but there’s no cash profit, it’s a one off job and I will be stuck with a pole I no longer need. With regards to this pole £1,500 would have been OK. Is it possible to have a 70ft plus telescopic pole for that price?
i have a 50 ft job to do, i need 2 more sections for my pole, i wouldnt dream of asking / letting the customer pay for it, just not professional, infact you have just made yourself look really tinpot
I don’t feel I’ve made myself look tinpot; this is one of those jobs that push the limits to any work I have done previously, the work involved was discussed in detail with the customer with regards what need to be, what he wants doing and the different ways to achieve this and balancing this out with the customers budget. Obviously the work is a lot more complex than I have just explained.
I am always honest with the customer and told them my current level of experience and any aspect of the work than I can do with the equipment I currently have, I simply told them I would need to buy a longer pole for there building and we can work out a deal. They know the price of the pole will cost me £2,500 which so far they have accepted, I also told them (at that time) to get other quotes for the work and gave a couple of recommendations. (Who I knew would be very expensive)
I want to do the job for the experience but also with a profit. The modular pole now sounds appealing having spoken to you lot and because of the work & price agreed so far with the customer, the purchasing cost of the modular when compared to the telescopic does put a profit in my pocket.
of course you could allways be honest and accept the company buying you the pole is a generous offer of goodwill and tell them the reduced price of a modular and not take the £2,500 and pocket the change ( thus not putting more profit in your pocket
So not tinpot matt, I can turn my lack of equipment & inexperience into a good sales pitch. Still professional, knowledgeable and confident when dealing with the customer but also realistic and not biting off more than I can chew, nor walking away from the work because I have reached my limits with both equipment & experience.
(Is there anybody on here who has the Facelift one 72ft pole, and regrets it?)
interesting, many ( and myself included ) when doing the sales pitch talk up themselves, when asked by the customer if cleaning at 70 ft would be a problem, my response would have been " no, not at all, we can clean that and higher " even if i didnt have the pole, i know my pole is 45 ft , so i can reach 47 - 48 ft, i would be pretty confident i could get the pole to 70 ft, if i couldnt i guess i would just swallow the expense and buy 1 of alex
now you have gone the other way and told them about your lack of equipment & inexperience, from my experience ( and i might not be the biggest commercial window cleaner, but i have a few nice accounts which do me nicely ) if i went that route i think the manager ( etc etc ) would have laughed and got his phone out and phoned some1 else
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When the first SLX came out Gardiners could easily have added £100 to the price of the twenty five foot pole, still been competitive and still sold them demand was so high.
What price then Ewan do you think carbon telescopic poles should be selling for?
Talking for Gardiner’s again ftp, telling us all how they could have put an extra £100 on the pole, by the sounds of it with you he could have put an extra £200 on, Alex must be kicking himself LOL.
I am talking about all carbon fibre poles not just Gardiner’s poles, Alex has already said other manufactures could drop there price and still make a good profit.
I just said the poles are over priced, just wanted others views on this.
I suppose my gripe is I need one of those 70ft plus poles, but I am finding it hard to justify the price tag of nearly £2,500, so far the customer has agreed to pay for the pole for the work to be done, but there’s no cash profit, it’s a one off job and I will be stuck with a pole I no longer need. With regards to this pole £1,500 would have been OK. Is it possible to have a 70ft plus telescopic pole for that price?
With regards to the 70ft+ poles (Ionics 68ft actual length), it is possible that we may in the future produce a 69ft telescopic Super-Max pole (actual length, reach 73ft). If we were to do this it would have to be made of high modulus carbon fibre similar to our SL2 but of thicker wall structure. If we were to bring this to market I would need to sell it for £1600 +VAT. Due to the fact that this would be an 11 section pole (a world first, the current Super-Max47 holds the record with 10 sections), the closed length would still be fairly manageable. Whilst a Super-Lite would be considerably lighter to work with at these heights, I realize that sometimes telescopic is important. It's worth remembering though that with a lot of telescopic poles at this length, the clamps are so high up that you might as well be working with a modular for convenience.
Good pitch Alex ;), if you do make the pole you mentioned how long will your sections be on the pole? Facelifts section is 8ft
Length closed would be 2300mm/7' 6", it would have 11 sections and the lowest clamp would be at 1940mm/6' 4" the actual extended length would be 70ft (74ft reach) the weight would be about 5kg. It would have a base diamter of 48.5mm.
One would almost think that I had given this some previous thought :D
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Ewan
I really think your answer to this job is the SL-2, IMO, you'll regret the F1 telescopic. You'll make a profit on the first job & then have the pole for future use, genuinely be able to offer & advertise work @ the 60ft mark etc.
For most, an slx & an SL2 will cover their whole spectrum of work.
If you do go for the F1, I suggest you join a gym & start pumping pretty soon!! ;)
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Ewan, your figures are miles out. Buy an S2 for less than £1000 - you already have an SLX remember? You therefore have the whole range already covered.
I'm going to ask my next commercial job to buy me a van. ::)
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Why dont you ask if anyone has something suitable to lend for the period of time you need it.
I already posted you can use one of mine. Its good financial sense, it'll show your custard that you're using your head even if you're not, by passing them a £250.00 bill instead of one for £1,500 or whatever it is you've told them they'll have to pay.
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Ewan, you are a halfwit. If you owned an SLX you would already know they can be broken down to different lengths. You buy the S2 for your one off two and a half grand job. You then have a modular that can be used from just over five feet to seventy feet.
You could in theory cover every job with that one pole. However most prefer a telescopic for residential work which is why most by an SLX too.
So there you go, the most number of poles you need = 2. (and you already own one) so a grand should cover your needs.
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So explain to me why you need more than two poles?
Gardiners have it covered which is why I use their products. You can buy any of their telescopic range and remove any unwanted sections if you so desired. Likewise you will shortly be able to by additional sections should you wish to make a longer pole.
Can you see now why I tend to use Gardiners Poles?
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My poles? I have a thirty foot SLX, Sixty odd feet of S2 which also doubles up as my guttervac poles and a crappy Harris pole that never gets used.
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Ewan, you are a. If you owned an SLX you would already know they can be broken down to different lengths. You buy the S2 for your one off two and a half grand job. You then have a modular that can be used from just over five feet to seventy feet.
You could in theory cover every job with that one pole. However most prefer a telescopic for residential work which is why most by an SLX too.
So there you go, the most number of poles you need = 2. (and you already own one) so a grand should cover your needs.
That is pretty much spot on, although I'm in a good mood tonight so I've deleted the halfwit part.
I don't know if you have the slx or not ewan but if you don't- Like ftp said, the sections are removable, no tools needed, no hassle. Just unclamp & slip off. Just use this feature to your advantage. ;)
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Carbon poles are quite expensive but a brilliant tool to have. Let me tell you what EXPENSIVE is.
I am a distributor for Gardiner down here in South Africa. I introduced WFP to this country in 2006. I now get loads of enquires for kit and the market is now taking note of what is available here.
Had a guy come to see me yesterday who prior to our meeting had been to WETROK who I have also been to nosey at.
Now I hope you are sitting down, because they sell the HIFLO CARBON TEC POLE KIT for R47,663.00 dont suppose to many of you no the Rand exchange rate but its pretty good at the moment at 12 Rand for a pound,
This makes the pole 3971,00 POUND Yes Three thousand nine hundred and seventy one pounds. And it gets better they also sell a HI FLO DI RESIN FILTER for a mere two thousand eight hundred and seventy six POUNDS.
Mind you it does include VAT ;D Had to laugh when I asked the salesman how long the resin lasted and he said every month ???
BEAT THAT!!!! and keep up the good work Gardiners. Well priced kit
OH nearly forgot to tell you they have sold two or three of these kits.
COLIN
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I knew Alex was a meeleonair ;D
(http://www.character-cars.com/images/thetrotters1.jpg)
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Ewan
I really think your answer to this job is the SL-2, IMO, you'll regret the F1 telescopic. You'll make a profit on the first job & then have the pole for future use, genuinely be able to offer & advertise work @ the 60ft mark etc.
For most, an slx & an SL2 will cover their whole spectrum of work.
If you do go for the F1, I suggest you join a gym & start pumping pretty soon!! ;)
I agree to the sl2 part. Dunno about F1.
I bought one july last year for 1 job. The job payed for it after 3 visits.
Fantastic investment. I have bought a couple of extensions and replaced the No1 section last week.
The No3 section snapped in half after 3 cleans but i pushed the broken end through the other part and glued it up.
Since i did that i have used the sl2 on everything since. I have hammered it for a year this month. I need a No2 section very soon.
But it has opened up a new world of windows for me. Ground floor to 50 feet. (there aren't many high building around here.) Money!!!
I did struggle to get used to carrying sections around. I use 2 sections on 95% of my domestic. When i have used 3 or 4 sections it is 50/50 whether i will remember to pick up all the poles before i leave. I've had to drive back several times to pick up a section.
The hose being on the outside isn't as good as inside but is easy to keep taut anyway.
The sl2 is the really the only pole out there that can be used on everything upto 60ft or more. It has been my best purchase pole wise. The 17ft xtel was the previous. :)
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I have a 30ft Facelift carbon pole and it doesn't reach some windows so i have to use my 30ft Gardiners which is obviously longer. Also a carbon 45 ft Brodex.It weighs a tonne but is very rigid.
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Ewan - you really are in wind up mode aren't you? Your comments are so ridiculous that you have blown your buisiness ideas apart. My advice would be to take on a new identity on this forum - that way you might last a month or two before we can work out just who you are. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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How much money would you expect a carbon fibre pole (or set of poles) to earn you relative to the pole(s) cost, before they are due to be changed?
for me, once a item of tools have earnt me 3 times the cost, its worth it, it was allways the same as a carpenter, if a specialist tool allowed me to earn 3 times the cost, then it was worth the purchase, its allways been my rule for new kit
To have set or range of carbon fibre poles covering ground floor up to 70ft you can spend any from £3,000 - £5,000 for the independent window cleaner this is a lot of cash. Although for you matt you will just swallow the expense and buy one or three.
i would like to think i could get to 70 ft for under 1 K, with it being a modular pole, it will pay for itself after the first use, as the base sections will be interchanged with other for other jobs, so yes, i would just swallow the expense and buy one pole, just like i will with my 50 ft job
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I'm going to ask my next commercial job to buy me a van. ::)
funny enough, i asked one today to buy me a industrial unit , just so i could store my water in
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Because not every one cleans the same height properties. Some specialize in very high hospital blocks or blocks of flats, others may only clean two storeys.
Some can't afford a telescopic and a modular others only want a telescopic. Loads of different reasons. You were compaining about pole costs, a solution was put to you to save £4000 yet you can't agree to it. One minute everything is too expensive the next you must spend and buy every pole and lose any profit in a so called job you have. Ewan, you are just trolling the forum looking for trouble. Why?
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ftp why don’t Gardiner (the love of your life) or any other manufacture make and sell only 2 types of poles?
Serious question, if you don’t know the answer ask Alex.
I think your methods are unusual Ewan, 99% of wfp'ers would be fine with those two poles. There isn't enough of a market to make money for the other 1% for pole manufacturers I would say.
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Have to say there doesnt appear to be any logic (business logic or plain common sense logic) in what he is saying. Cant spot it, has to be said.
I suspect he is on a wind-up; or is ignorant of what pole is best for any given scenario; or just desnt know what he is talking about.
Possibly a combination of 2 of those things or maybe all 3.
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Have to say there doesnt appear to be any logic (business logic or plain common sense logic) in what he is saying. Cant spot it, has to be said.
I have to agree but I'm trying to be nice & get to the bottom of if the whole Ewan is real or just a kid with a few fancy words up his sleeve?
After this thread though, I'm heading towards the latter!
Ewan, help us out here dude! ;)
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ftp, how many poles do you have? ;D
Dunno how many he has but I've got 7.
I had the poles I thought I wanted but I ended up getting shoulder and elbow trouble so had to lighten the load. I've kept the heavy artillery as it is useful on certain, occasional jobs.
Also, I find the Ionics 2x2 is very useful at times. Although the SLX is fine for most ground floor work as well as height, I do have some jobs where I need a very short pole as space is extremely restricted.
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Well, I can't wait to see your £27 pole at seventy feet!
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Im sure someone used to come on here spouting that Harris poles were for cowboys.....now who was that ???
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Good for you Ewan, someone with an open mind, try the M16 if you want to go higher. I think You will like the Zensor though.
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Ewan....do you think you could post a bit on how you prepare the pole for use.
I am looking into it at the moment...mullarkeys are doing the ron thompson zensorflex 8m for £19.99....worth a try at that sort of price.
Dan ;)
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You get what you pay for. As an example I ride race bikes for fitness and a hoby. I have just bought a Trek 5.2 Madone,2009 model. The carbon fibre is high modulas carbon but boy oh boy the ride quality is light years ahead of any bike under £2000.00. Why the high cost for the bike? Its down to ROD costs,It took over 3 years to develop the bike and cost a fortune. I for one know I ride one of the best bikes ever made because of ROD and I have been riding bikes for over 40 years.
I been wfp for 4 years now and the choice and quality in poles is far better then 4 years ago, 4 years ago Ionics bought out their Ergo-light pole it cost for their 35' model £795.95 + VAT,6x6' sections,weight 3.8 kg, Ergo- Lite glass Fibre 35' 7x6' sections, weight 3.8 kg £498.95. Universal Glass fibre 34' 6x6' 7.65kg £312.95.
Now in cycling the golden rule is the lighter the bike or parts for the bike the more you pay and to get the very lightest costs you far more percentage wise then heavier parts or heavier bikes.
Now Compare the prices for the 35' pole from 4 years ago to the Slx 35'pole:- £490.00,7 sections, 1995g. Thats £300.00 cheaper BUt half the weight plus its shorter in length and is also smaller in the handle diamater.Its a bargin in real money terms,
if it was a racing bike youwould be paying a small fortune. Now back to the Trek bike the 2009 model is the same as the 2008 model other then its colour but the price went up £200.00. the 2010 bike is exactly the same other then colour the price as incresed another £500.00.So in 2 yeras its gone up £700.00.Now compare the slx in comparision its a steal for the money and the wear and tear it will save on your body is worth the cost.I for one appreciate the efforts people like Alex put into the industry and the benefical effects we get as a result.
You get what you pay for.
Neil
I don't think the racing bike analogy fits Neil - not for your (non professional racing) usage anyway. You say you ride for fitness and as a hobby and frankly the weight saving of a £500/£600 Specialized Allez (double) over a Halfords hack will save you several kg and make a big difference in speed/performance.
But the difference between that Allez and a £2000 racer will save what? A kg? And as you get up to £5000 you might get another kg? You might as well lose the weight off of yourself and clothing before worrying about the incremental differences of campag versus shimano, carbon fibre vs ali or titanium.
Any improvement in your performance will likely be psychological and due to feeling good about your choice of bike IMO. It ain't about the bike, it's about the rider! ;)
(If you're trying to beat 30 miles in an hour then I agree that every gram counts - but at 20/25 mph not so much...)
Back to poles - the law of diminishing returns applies and the SL-X say, is a good all rounder at it's price but any less weight and retaining robustness (for a higher price) will not IMO make much difference to the average user.
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Im sure someone used to come on here spouting that Harris poles were for cowboys.....now who was that ???
I think I have said that about both the Harris pole & Fishing poles.
Since I made those comments, I thought it only fair to take listen to the positive comments others said about them and try them myself. So I brought a Harris pole first tried that, and now recently brought 8m fishing pole zensorflex which I will soon try.
I knew someone had, wasnt sure who, cheers Ewan, that must make you a cowboy then? ;D
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Thanks Jeff, I got the Zensorflex a few weeks ago, first impressions are (hate to admit this) but I am looking forward to trying it out.
use it with a open mind and you will notice the weight factor is a massive plus
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Well when I try these poles out I do where a Stetson hat, (made from straw not leather.) I have also noticed when I hold these converted wfp poles my legs bow and I say Yeeeehaaaa a lot, are there any more side affects to surface Matt when using these poles? ;D
Dan, I will follow the guide on the wfp diy website showing you how to convert the pole. If you ask, someone will put a link up for you.
Just don't try eating beans á lá "Blazing Saddles".
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Dan, I will follow the guide on the wfp diy website showing you how to convert the pole. If you ask, someone will put a link up for you.
http://diywfpole.webs.com/
OR
http://wfpole.110mb.com/
OR
http://wfpole2.110mb.com
watch it ewan, you might have to admit that i sometimes help others on here ;D ;D
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Well when I try these poles out I do where a Stetson hat, (made from straw not leather.) I have also noticed when I hold these converted wfp poles my legs bow and I say Yeeeehaaaa a lot, are there any more side affects to surface Matt when using these poles? ;D
Dan, I will follow the guide on the wfp diy website showing you how to convert the pole. If you ask, someone will put a link up for you.
Yes, you'll find yourself wearing a checkered shirt before long, eating beans and singing Oklahoma without even knowing you're doing it ;)