Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Simon Gerrard on October 03, 2009, 07:21:40 pm
-
There's been much talk lately about new associations. Derek West has mentioned it and Pete Sweeney and others are putting together one.
The question is;
1) Is there a real yearning on the part of the average carpet cleaner for another association to rival the NCCA?
2) If so, why?
3) If there were to be a new association, what would you want from it that you cannot get from the NCCA?
4) What would persuade you to join a new association?
I'm not trying to start an argument on this issue, I'm just interested in what the driving forces are behind peoples' desire for something new.
Simon
-
The only real motive has to be MONEY and there's nothing wrong with that as the time, effort and investment will be considerable.
Having no knowledge of what's proposed we can only guess.
An association ( if big enough ) could have it's membership trained to a uniform ( on paper ) standard which might make it easier to land National contracts and be accepted by Insurance Companies for Flood / Restoration work.
The major problem in my opinion would be the need to have everyone using the same products and methods due to the individual costs.
But I could be way off the mark.
I was involvbed with ALLTEC and FRANKLINS who both failed to achieve anything worth while in their attempts at a National Alliance of Cleaners and the more recent attempt by Solutions ended similarly.
Apathy RULES in carpet cleaning circles which is a pity but it's the way it is.
-
i disagree with the money aspect all though that is the end result, so i'm not disagreeing with mr meldrum, its hard to explain in a post, making the money is my job, having an org to reassure my custy, which in turn helps me land the job is paramount for me. and is what TACCA is all about, giving your members the edge over your competitors.
also making it easier to get insurance, and being part of a group of members to be proud of, in other words not just any tom dick and harry who can conjur up the mem fee.
maybe some benefits like discounts with certain suppliers, and finally a fair and lucrative referal system.
all the above is what TACCA is trying to and will achieve. amen to that.
derek
-
I think that what I would look for would be an association that advertised on the TV, newspapers etc etc to help it become a household name like "Vax", "Rug Doctor" and other names we often hear our customers mention.
If I answered the phone and was asked if I was a member of the NCCA nearly every phone call, I'd be signing up right away. I've never ever been asked and I have mentioned it to a lot of customers when I was looking at joining the NCCA, but I always got that blank look!
-
The only real motive has to be MONEY
how can they be motivated by money? the amount of effort these sort of things take, they would make more money devoting the time to building thier own business.
if you look at what really motivate people you will find money very low down on the list, ego, power and ambition rank a lot higher. look at politicians do they go into politics because they want to help the people or are then enticed by the power or a sense that they in some way are better than the rest of us, so need to 'help' us
but I'm not saying anyone mentioned lately has this god complex but I think some people have an over-inflated self opinion and need to wind in their necks a bit
-
The way I see it is when an association sets out to directly generate sales then it ceases to be an association and becomes in effect a co-operative. The problem is that unless you have very strict entry criteria then you cannot offer a uniform level of service to any would be national client and that would be the number one thing on their list of concerns when entering into any contract. You can't do that if you have a diverse group of people, with vastly different skill levels, some trained, others not and some equipped with nothing more than a £285.00 + vat Karcher Puzzi at one end of the scale and others with hi-performance truck mounted cleaning systems.
If you have a group of people all similarly trained and all with similar equipment then, like a franchise you can offer the requisite level of uniformity regardless of location.
An association should represent the interests of its members by suggesting to the public and commercial sectors that all of its members are well trained professional people, people the public can trust to deliver a high quality product. To go a step further and attempt to sell your members service and generate sales on their behalf is deeply problematic.
I can't think of an association that does go that far. Yes, have a website, yes, do national advertising to develop interest and awareness of carpet cleaning and your members services and then let the would be customer choose.
The best example of this was Prochem's Proclean Association which was heavily advertised in YP and magazines and gave extra credibility to its members by displaying the Proclean logo on their advertising but didn't seek to make the sale on behalf of its members.
Simon
-
Oh boy, here we go. First how can we be planning an alternative when -
1) There is a negative reaction by most towards proper training.
2) Negative towards standard practices
3) Negative towards Insurance
etc. etc.
How many would attend a customer service training event, or a sales training event or marketing training event?
Who would like to go through similar training routine line Franchises so that they can have proven methods instilled in them?
Insurance work? Well if you get the necessary qualifications (mostly BICS, Woolsafe, HVAC and IICRC) then you can put your company in for tenders.
I think the reason why the NCCA isn't effective is because we don't become members and lobby it. If we are members of an organisation and it isn't representing us then we would leave or demand a refund. Unless that organisation wants to go under it would have to act on our requests.
So lets push for more members and get more of us joining the NCCA and then we lobby the NCCA to represent us properly. Far more effective than trying to start a new organisation.
Or an alternative is to Join the IICRC and leave the NCCA and let the IICRC work on our behalf. If they don't we lobby them, but with their International presence they wouldn't want to be seen as failing so we might get better results.
But one thing I do fee is that we need better publicity on a national basis and greater awareness and customer education.
Then again I guess there would still be people on here complaining even if we did get all we demanded. Why? Simply because they aren't members.
-
I for one enjoy a chat, advise and a loose association with my fellow cleaners and help out where I see fit.
However to be honest I am not a team player and enjoy working most of the time alone.
Personally and i think a great many cleaners dont want to all work to the same imposed standards, its just not why they are about.
The NCCA are OK am a member and get work that at least covers fees. However to be honest am only a member for whats in it for me. Which must be true of most members considering the appalling turnout for AGMs. Pay my fees and they dont bother me.
MARK
-
This is a slightly amended version of what I posted some time ago on a similar topic.
The biggest organisation for window cleaners is called FWC (Federation of Window Cleaners).
Some years ago they lost their way on all fronts, and on the back of that numerous window cleaners got together (including myself) to create the very thing that window cleaners wanted and APWC (Association of Professional Window Cleaners) was created.
Oh there was loads and loads of support for this up until the moment the thing went live. We had 2 major players in the industry involved too but come the day we said membership was based on certain criteria and the cost was around the £100 per year region, getting people to join up was literally the p-ss in the wind scenario.
Amazingly the membership cost included an insurance policy (specially arranged) that would cover death and injury and loss of earnings, this would have cost easily 3 times the cost of membership if bought by the individual outside the APWC.
I won't go into all the details of benefits but this year the APWC was wound up due to lack of support.
On the positive side at least the FWC got the required kick up the backside and started to sort itself out, albeit membership of that organisation is drying up week by week.
Sadly whilst the trade wether it be window cleaning or carpet cleaning is unregulated then other than a handful of dedicated people, membership is going to be very limited. Yet the best bit about this is that those who are not members will still be asking what the trade organisation is doing about this, that and the other, yet they don't want to pay into it
The only true way this will work is if everyone is trained in the same methods and use the same solutions, chemicals, techniques etc. And that's never going to happen
-
Mark
I think you have hit the nail on the head really.
Why do people leave J.O.B.s and become carpet cleaners, I think it's more to do with being your own boss and doing what you want for your business. When you are part of something bigger compromise and conformity are part of the deal.
I also think that you only have to look at forums to see the way things likely to go.
But I really do hope I'm wrong on this one as I'd like to see Dave and others project succeed. What really puts me off is usually though, it's just one big ego trip with some one calling the shots. No thanks I'll get a job if I wanted that.
-
See I told you.
No one wants to be apart of any standard whatsoever, too many want to do it however they see fit. But the requirements of the NCCA and IICRC are basic as I see it. One training course and a insurance for your business which you should have. So why so such huge objections?
What I think the NCCA and IICRC should do is be more proactive for their current respective members. And when the work picks for it's member then the members will sell the organisation, I guess then everyone (almost everyone) will want to join.
Then they could double their joining fees.
-
Goldfish has a point why reinvent the wheel ???
The egos should join the NCCA and make changes, the associations crying out for new blood who WANT to get involved.
mark
-
I completley agree with Mark.The NCCA is all ready in place so change things from within the NCCA if your not happy, rather than go through the whole slog of setting up new associations which just does not make sense ???
-
Well said Mark
But egotists want to the queen bee and have everyone adopt them as their super hero so they will shout loudly about how wonderful they are and give the impression that they and only they have the magic formula.
Now...........that kind of evangelism appeals to many who want a figurehead / hero and if someone is condemning the establishment and offering another way, they will get followers..................for a while !
Nothing is perfect and nothing will ever be perfect.
-
Nice to see clear heads thinking on here. I strongly feel that the NCCA should join up with the IICRC this would give them more strength. If the NCCA was as strong as the IICRC I don't believe Paul Pierce would have moved.
But the key is to lobby both these organisations. Simple things they can do like:
1) Get access to the press to promote carpet cleaning benefits to home owners and healthier home environment - getting to the press shouldn't be that hard, it doesn't have to be full page spreads or front page articles. But it has to be continuous and informative. They could try local press and magazines then move up.
2) Create a leads portal that members can buy into, like Service Magic and others does here in the UK and the US. This would generate serious income for the organisations and then they would increase membership numbers and price.
3) Do a consumer magazine instead of just a members magazine and do a mail shot with one of the quality Sunday papers, this way they are sharing the distribution bill so everything becomes cost effective. We could then advertise in these magazines or write articles for the mag.
4) Forge links with facilities managers so that CCs looking to acquire commercial contracts have a better chance to contact the decision makers. Also the FMs can have a readily available portal to advertise tenders or offer CCs work.
5) Work with it's current members to engage the public - eg. They could have an agreement with participating members, where customer win something by booking through there site. At the moment many CCs are doing free clean offers of varied nature, this could be done on a national scale by the NCCA/IICRC and members who want to participate.
These things aren't difficult to put in place and I am sure you guys have more ideas. All it takes is willingness and co-operation. BUT WE NEED TO LOBBY THE CURRENT ORGANISATIONS TO ACT. Not Create New Ones
-
Considering that no information whatsoever has been issued yet by any new association, I fail to understand the negative comments being aired by people on this forum.
We are all entitled to our opinions, but until we know the details we are all just speculating.
You never know, we just might benefit from a new organisation - as far as changing existing organisations are concerned - don't come on here talking about it, just do it - or maybe it's not as simple as you all might think.
It's very easy to criticise when you have been in business a long time, have a loyal client base and don't worry too much where the next job is coming from. But maybe some carpet cleaners aren't at that stage yet, maybe they would welcome an organisation that was striving to educate the public or trying to muscle into some of the national contracts that franchises have a stranglehold on.
All I keep reading on here is how this or that won't work because........... so and so tried it and no-one was interested or that can't possibly work because we are all independants.
For years all I have ever read on here is negative comments relating to the NCCA and now we have the possibility of a new association and the negative comments are even worse and it hasn't even been officially launched yet.
Why don't we wait and see how it is structured and how it might benefit us, then we can make an informed decision.
Steve
-
Well Steve,
I wasn't aware these guys were seriously doing this. I thought it was more of a suggestion.
Well I welcome new ideas, what I wouldn't want to see is an organisation that's been form just to rebel or one that's formed by spoil school boys who can't or wont conform so they try to teach themselves or become disruptive (GOT MY DRIFT)
I am not negative towards the NCCA or IICRC just want them to be more proactive, I really don't think they are and it seems they would rather us to join and then do their marketing, which I feel is wrong.
-
Steve B , well said , Lots and Lots of Negs from ppl that dont fully know what they are neging about unless there in the minds of ten or so ppl ( I doubt ). NO Facts NO Figures NO structure and NO Direction has been given as of yet as far as Im aware , yes there is lots of speculation but its merely speculation .
a Fellow CC said " there are lots of clicks " he was right yet we all do a similar job with in the industry,
Its just ashame really , but we are only human and we are all aloud an opinion , no matter how much of a twisted neg it may be
-
Sorry chaps I have respect for what you guys are trying to do and may join if invited.
However reading back i can only see people talking over the subject in a level headed way looking for a way forward. CCs have historically been reluctant to join associations.
Cant see the posts full of "Twisted negatives", just maybe the talent involved MAY be better turning round the NCCA.
mark
-
The responses have been pretty much as I expected - little interest in a new association.
When Glynn and I took over Truck Mounters we made it an association, the Truck Mounted Carpet Cleaners Association. Our first thoughts were to make it a full blown association and go all out to get national contracts and share out the work with the members. We looked very carefully at this and quickly concluded that it wasn't a realistic proposition, not least because of the sheer amount of time and money it takes to get something like that going and it have beneficial to all of the members whilst at the same time running your own business . The truth is setting out to directly generate sales is not the role of an association, to create interest in your members services and let the consumer agree the sale direct with the member is.
We're developing a TMCCA website which our members can promote on their websites, with a link to the TMCCA website and other advertising material and then see if the members see a benefit in it and take it from there and all this is for free.
If you want to take things further than that you then have the problem of how to ensure uniform service and quality to the standard of the franchise operations and with a diverse group of people all with different skill levels, experience and training, all serving the same clients in different parts of the country.
The word Apathy rings particularly true, as does the notion that the NCCA is the best vehicle to bring about a truly effective association, not least because they have been in existence for 41 years and are well established.
Simon
-
Guys
Good post Simon. You really are opening peoples minds to all the possibilities.
I agree that the NCCA have been running 41 years and are in the best position to achieve what we all desire. 41 years??????????
Pete
-
all this negativity makes me feel quite sad really, theres some great carpet cleaning and business minds on this site and others, who could really benefit from getting together and banging heads, where theres a will theres a way, you find a stumbling block and work out how to get round it, step by step this can be done.
so many silly remarks about egotism when really its just mistaken for enthusiasm and the love of the job. something a lot of you vets had when you first started out.
shame, real shame. :(
but hey ho, forums only make up 2 or 3 % of the carpet cleaning work force and optimism is my middle name, well it isn't really but you catch my drift.
derek "not perturbed in the slightest" west
-
Derek
Your right about the 3 % of c cleaners that use the forums,and only the other day i was chating to a very succsessful c cleaner and he too didnt want to use a forums for many reasons ::)
-
Remember this?
www.cleantalk.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8181&highlight=simon+gerrard
Shaun
-
Some good posts from Shaun and Derek.
Clinton
If i spend the time i waste on these forums marketing my business where would i be now, Might not be a bad idea actually.
Paul
-
Paul ;D
Me too :)
-
Clinton,
The problem is without the forums and friends i've made made on here like Shaun, Pete, Steve B, Doug, id still be charging low prices and not making much money, And id like just to thank everybody especially Shaun & Pete for all there Help and support.
Paul
-
So welcome to the CIU carpet cleaners association Paul :)
-
At the end of the day YOU are your own business,YOU will make the difference between success(whatever you deem that to be) or failure, YOU will either be liked or disliked by your clients ,hence whether you will be retained or recommended or not.
Surely the NCCA has never set out to be a work generating tool but an organisation to highlight and set some sort of standard in carpet cleaning which to a certain degree has (I know of some guys who have passed the exam etc ,become members and have not yet cleaned a carpet).
Maybe I have myown ideas of what I want from my own business and this will differ from others- I,m happy to work locally on my own ,let things grow 'organically' through repeat and referrals, not a fast buck and have a solid business.
I have been a member of NCCA for approx 15yrs and a founder member of woolsafe(10yrs) both help my business but its ME that makes it work.
Mike
-
Simon
What I can't understand is your negativity towards any new association.
Is it because you want it to fail, so you can say "I told you so" ? or are you in such a position now that you can afford to be apathetic towards it, because it doesn't matter one way or the other if it is successful.
You state that there is little interest, but you have posted this topic both on here and on truckmounters and have had approx 15 negative comments - and as we have already established the carpet cleaners that frequent these forums number a tiny percentage of cleaners in the industry.
I say lets wait and see and form an opinion based on results.
Steve
-
The only real motive has to be MONEY
how can they be motivated by money? the amount of effort these sort of things take, they would make more money devoting the time to building thier own business.
if you look at what really motivate people you will find money very low
down on the list, ego, power and ambition rank a lot higher. look at politicians do they go into politics because they want to help the people or are then enticed by the power or a sense that they in some way are better than the rest of us, so need to 'help' us
but I'm not saying anyone mentioned lately has this god complex but I think some people have an over-inflated self opinion and need to wind in their necks a bit
Ian Gourlay Wrote
Yep thats why I went into Politics
But why do I spend so much time helping people with their problems finding ways to make their lives an area better. Go knocking on the doors and get more insults than Joe H does If it was Ego I would have quit years ago.
-
Ego is part of it Ian just as some people need to be part of something, while others need to teach /help / mentor others.
Others just want to prove everyone and everything wrong and provide their solutions forgetting where they got their solutions from in the first place.
If people want someone to raise their profile, find them customers, show them how to do their job there's loads of information available on the internet forums and IICRC supply all the courses anyone could want.
-
I hope everyone has read the cleantalk link posted by Shaun, a few very important paragraphs by different poster's sum it up for me:
Simon
In a nutshell then, we are all fighting one another in a shrinking market place but there is a huge, and I do mean HUGE untapped market out there that if tapped effectively could get all of our phones ringing a lot more often. If you don’t believe me, just look at the rows of houses and estates in your own town that you have never worked in and ask yourself –Why?
Ken wainwright
There is an issue raised which, for me, requires clarification. This is the statement that only 25% of the market has been explored, and that 75% remains untapped. Does this refer equally to the business and residential sectors? Or both? And what is the source of these figures?
Simon
Now, it is a fact that if you put every carpet cleaner in the country together, I’ll bet that we don’t serve 25% of the total market because the other 75% don't even know that they can have their carpet cleaned by trained professional operators. Which means, in effect that we all scurry around fighting amongst ourselves for that measly portion of the market that we do have. Yellow Pages and Thomson Local Ad’s serve only to point the established part of the market towards us, but does not in anyway expand that market to find new potential and 75% untapped potential is huge.
Dave Lee
I seem to remember reading somewhere fairly recently, relating to some research done, comparing the carpet cleaning market in the USA to the UK. The figures may not be exact but in the USA the market was around 50% of the population, and in UK around 3%. Not the potential market but the present market.
I for one think 3% is more like the true figure,than 25%.
Ian Gorlay
This is an interesting post. Nobody knows the size of the market.
In most industries that is the starting point of market research.
Mike Halliday
To answer one point raised in the thread, The Franchise Rainbow International in 1997 did a survey, the conclusion was that 14% of the British population use the services of a professional carpet cleaner.
I believe that professional market research is needed to find out the real reason's the vast majority of people don't use us, only when we have those answer's can we act accordingly wether we are in an association or not.
Alan
-
Very Interesting Stats
To get the stats done is very costly. You can get the stats at the library but it is mainly based on commercial not domestic. The same company that does those stats can do the same for domestic if they are paid or if they find it financially viable (they can sell it and make a profit). I read the stats for 2006 some time back, I will pop into the library when I have some time and check the new stats (2008).
To be honest I just feel that the general public here isn't really aware of the service and it's true benefits. In America they sing and dance about everything and seem to be more proactive with an idea or concept.
In America they mostly have Truck Mounts so you find customers have less drawbacks to having these used to clean there house, where as in the UK you get the silly issues from some custies. The Americans are always coming up with fresh marketing approach. Hence, the success of Joe Polish and even our Fast-Track here, where is it copied from?
In Britain we copy ideas but not necessary marketing concepts/methods for the idea. When the yanks tries to impose there style it rarely ever works. Why I am not sure because it is proven successful most of the time in the US.
I speak to window cleaners who wont use WFP yet still the US has shown how effective it is. Countries do things different but I think the UK the most reluctant to change or try new approaches to things. The RotaBrush did catch on here though but Magic glide didn't.
Maybe I'm wrong
-
Hi Guys
Amongst the negativity there is obviously a strong interest in this.
I am among those driving forward a modern, dynamic organisation, but do not want to say too much at present as there is a lot of work to be done and I am a great believer in positive action.
Cheers
Doug
-
Steve,
I'm really quite offended by this:
Is it because you want it to fail, so you can say "I told you so" ?
You are misinterpreting my reason for raising this issue and the comments I have made regarding it. Like I said, Glynn and I looked at this long and hard and even looked into how to go about starting national radio / TV advertising campaign but the costs of that are mind blowing.
In my view all that people actually want from an Association is some addition credibility and hopefully some additional work, that's it in a nutshell.
I don't think we need another association, nor do I think people actually want another association, but if Doug and Co can come up with something new that isn't just a money making scheme then I will be the first to congratulate them.
Simon
-
Doug uses 2 words which I think are the crux of what is seen to be wrong with the NCCA .....'modern' & 'Dynamic' could anyone describe the NCCA as this?
it is seen as an organisation ran by OAPs, when was the last time you saw a dynamic OAP?
also it is seen as having a very strong 'old Boy Network' if you are not in the club you don't belong.
This is why all these comments about
if you are not happy, join the NCCA and change it from within
you will change nothing until you are seen to be worthy of being listened too, and that will take 10yrs of being a member and paying your dues with plenty of brown nosing and volunteering. no one will join the NCCA and change things in months it will take years.
out of interest how are the president & other top dogs chosen? by a ballot of all the member? and how long was each person a member before being elected to a position of influence? I bet no one has been elected within 10 yrs of becoming a member.
So what other options are there? ......start your own association! .....then straight away you will be top dog and in a position to start making real changes for the better.
-
Thinking back - I've a long way to think back - my favourite association was in the first job I ever did, golf course greenkeeping.
My memories are
Three golf outings per year at the top courses St Andrews / Turnberry / Gleneagles, etc which was free apart from the catering. Prizes were donated by Suppliers.
In the winter there were monthly educational seminars again sponsored by Suppliers, at which we were introduced to new technology or had discussions on problem solving.
Not unlike carpet cleaning and maintenance.
-
Mike,
I am only 2 years of my OAP. I can tell you for sure, I am fitter and more dynamic than most half my age. That is some generalisation. Not offended, just making the point.
Dave.
-
Dave most men don't have your dedication to looking after themselves, your are an exception to the rule ;)
but watch those last 2 years..... if you have the urge to get an allotment or start moaning about how young policemen look...... seek help immediately
-
I think Simon has started (yet again) a very interesting thread.
My two penneth is
One of the aims of the NCCA is "to establish MINIMUM professional standards within the carpet and soft furnishing cleaning industry".
It fulfills that.
None of its aims state it will get loads of work via big contracts or individual domestics for its members, although it does pass enquiries thro its office and website to "local" cleaners. Like some of the others, I have benefitted from that.
Currently about 500 paid members (I think) - thats about £100k income plus training course income.
3 full time staff I believe (all in the office in Leicester), the rest "volunteers". Obviously those doing training courses will be paid.
So not a lot of money to if they were to advertise nationally in papers/tv etc - go nowhere.
Any "new" association formed will face a similar problem, 50 or say 100 members from the forums (cause not everyone will join) and then a hard slog to get the name known amongst carpet cleaners which will generate income by more members.
-
Joe
Thought they would have had more than 500 members ???
Does not seem that many really when you mention it..
Its going to cost the individuals a lot more for a new set up then and wonder who will get the full time jobs running it ::)
-
On reflection I think Mick's gotta point the NCCA is what it is and ain't going to change quickly if at all.
The association Doug and Pete are proposing will have from what I can gather a more aggressive sales and education program. I think with the clearly passionate individuals involved it will succeed and wish them the best of luck.
However just talking about it doesn't make everyone's opposing opinion negative.
mark
-
Starting a new organisation from scratch seems much harder than using the NCCA. It would make far more sense to coordinate a large group of people to shell out £230 to join the NCCA and make a point of turning up at the AGM to instigate and insist on change. This is the kind of revolution that is required to change the status quo. A bit of new blood on the board and a revitalised program to increase the membership would open the way forward for change.
Personally, I feel hesitant about criticising the NCCA. I pay my dues. but so far I have never been to an AGM or participated in any NCCA events. In many respects they do quite well on such limited membership. I do know that if I want or need change then I must turn up and make my voice heard. It seems I am not alone in this apathetic approach. It would be easier to support the idea of a new association if there had been a concerted group effort to support the NCCA and encourage change. If we all joined and turned up to actively support the NCCA it would make a huge difference. :o
Nigel
-
Nigel,
Well said, Sir!
You have hot the nail exactly on the head. As it stands at the moment Derek West is planning a new association and so too is Doug Holloway and Pete Sweeney. Yes, they may get some members joining them, but all that will achieve in the end is fracture the industry yet more and nobody needs that.
The best way forward is as you suggest, work to get a large group of people to join the NCCA as a block and then attend the AGM en-masse and demand reform. That is so much more possible rather than seeking to undermine or sideline an organisation that if nothing else has established roots in the industry.
Simon
-
Majority of members including me have never been to a AGM :-[
Think they had to cancel one last year because of lack of support, must be soul destroying for the committee who seem very committed.
mark
-
maybe it would be cheaper to put in an offer and buy the NCCA out, it would be relatively easy to turn it around. which begs the question, "why aren't they prepared to re invent themselves," maybe there waiting for an offer, i'd put my £10k in for a small percentage.
the foundations they command are cryiing out to be taken advantage of.
maybe an approach for the organisation side as apposed to the training side would be financially viable for a group of money men.
saves pssin about tryin to change it from the inside, like that'll ever happen ::)
food for thought.
derek
-
500 paying members from such an apathetic industry seems not too bad. My concern which I've aired before and will probably get arrows flying again in my direction is quite simple............
Training is a massive industry, but in order to train you must first of all become a qualified trainer and there must be assessors to monitor the training being delivered.......
Without that you have no credibility in the eyes of the Insurance World or the Awarding Authorities or indeed potential customers.
Just because you are good at communicating and demonstrating is innadequate and whether you take money or payment in kind or not you have no legitimacy.
If however you are a qualified industry trainer, eg, IICRC as is the case with the best known trainers in the UK carpet cleaning industry you can test and certificate candidates, but I'm sure you all know that
-
Simon
If you have taken offence at my comments, then there isn't much I can do about that other than assure you that it wasn't my intention.
But my point remains, why don't we wait and see - you never know we may end up with something that we all can be proud of, rather than the NCCA which everyone moans about to some extent or another. We are all so apathetic towards it, that even though we can talk on here about changing it from the inside, I'm sure we are also aware that, with the best will in the world, it aint gonna happen.
I know the people involved in the new set up and I'm aware of the direction they are heading and that excites me far more than the NCCA spending thousands of pounds coming up with a new logo, that then gets voted out because the establishment doesn't like change.
Steve
-
Steve,
I took offence because you were suggesting that my less than views on the merits of starting a new association are nothing more than sour grapes and that really I can't wait for the project to fail so I say, 'I told you so.' I hadn't even mentioned Clean Association, indeed the question was, is there a need at all for any new association. Just because I have my doubts, and surely I am entitled to them, that doesn't mean what you twisted them into implying and I think you were out o order for that. ?
But hey, you're a nice guy, give us a kiss :-* :-*
Simon
-
:-*
-
Dave most men don't have your dedication to looking after themselves, your are an exception to the rule ;)
but watch those last 2 years..... if you have the urge to get an allotment or start moaning about how young policemen look...... seek help immediately
Ok, Mike I'll take note of your advice, dont know about an allotment though, just got myself a road and mountain bikes. :P
Dave.
-
so does this mean that theres only me simon, ahem sorry, mr gerrard and glyn left ???
derek
-
Major problems for any organisation - current or new.
1 - getting carpet cleaners to join. We are very much individuals and look how divided we are here on this forum. So how is any one organisation going to get the numbers to generate a decent income.
2 - getting awareness out to the public. Been tried before, will take tens of thousands of pounds, and many of them, to make a small impact, and that initial impact needs to be sustained.
3 - its been said only about 3% of the UK population have their carpets cleaned. That means we are a dirty nation! How do you educate the population of the UK about the benefits of clean and healthier carpets? That would take a massive effort lasting years.
I think those 3 reasons alone is sufficient to say that, IMO, no organisation is going to make the full advancement that many deem necessary.
And the more associations there are means that any effort, no matter how passionate, is not going to make a massive difference to the whole.
Some unified action COULD work to make some impact.
The NCCA has been around how long? 40 years is it.
They have focused on "minimum" training, updating its members on latest developments (they do hold training days), ensuring its members have PL and treatment risk insurance (thats a good thing isnt it?), provide an advisory service for its members and handle complaints. (thats 4 of its listed aims - the 5th being each member adheres to the motto "service with integrity").
All the above things are positive.
Those are the aims of the NCCA (taken from their literature). No where do they state they will make the population of the UK aware of their existence so how can they be called rotten for not achieving what they have not set out to do.
If those with the passion to strive for customer awareness should, perhaps, approach the NCCA to see if a separate "arm" could work to develop that, hopefully bringing in new members at the same time.
The NCCA has credability, it has contacts, it has an infrastructure.... so why not use them?
-
The major problem with this new association, CLEAN, is that it is all being done behind closed doors, in secret and we, the very people who it is hoped will give it life are kept out of the loop. It's as if the guy's running it aren't interested in finding out what people might, or might not want from any new association because they know better than us what we want.
Wouldn't it be so much better to come CLEAN and put what is proposed out for discussion. The ideas may well be very good indeed, but others may not, but there will be other people's views and ideas that could come to the fore and make the whole thing better and I think it is a huge mistake to forgo the opportunity of building something that we all feel able to support, rather than have something foisted on us from above which if you think about it is nothing more than people get from the NCCA.
This new association is supposed to be dynamic and forward thinking, but not it seems forward thinking enough to realise that any new organisation has to be as inclusive as possible for it to stand any chance of succeeding.
Believe it or not, I'm not actually against this project, what I am against is the way that it is being built, behind closed doors. I also worry that some of the personalities involved may only be in it for the money and if that is the case then it is doomed from the outset.
Simon
-
You know what Simon,
That's exactly what I was thinking , In it for what they can get out of it, not really for the good of its potential members, sorry to be so blunt.
I cannot see how another organisation can, or would want to benefit its members simply by having another so called standards name.
Why would any one want to invest time and money to benefit others? Sorry this sort of person is very rare indeed, no matter what way you look at it .
Can they guarantee extra work for its members? I doubt it.
How can they assure its potential custys of a first class service by its members? They cant.
How with out the investment of vast amounts of money can they get it recognised. They cant.
But , What I fail to understand is, Why do we need another body? because no matter what you may say Joe public isn't that bothered and even if they was, we already have recognised bodys and it would not make one scrap of difference if I said to them ." yes I am a member of the NCCA the IICRC or Woolsafe or TACCA or I have degree,s in thermo nuclear carpet cleaning ;)
The customer wants a decent job for a fair price, simples really , and providing you are competent and you dont rip them off you will succeed.
Geoff.
-
Geoff,
Well said.
The trouble is these would-be leaders of a new association claiming to represent the carpet cleaning industry think so little of their prospective future members that they can't even be bothered to consult with them and put their plans in front of them and say, 'What do you think? If we did this would you be interested in joining?' From that you would get a range of differing answers and views and from that would come even better ideas that would make the whole scheme more effective and thus draw in even more support. Instead what we have is a self appointed committee of people deciding in secret the form and function of an association they expect us all to sign up to even though we have been ignored right up to the point where they want to open our wallets.
If they really cared about the carpet cleaning industry they would be bending over backwards to make an association based on what its members wanted from an association and not something they decided we wanted, which if you think about it is the number one complaint about the NCCA, that everything is done from on high.
Simon
-
Simon, What if they are in such early stages that they themselves haven't really got anything to tell it's would be members? Perhaps it's too early for transparency?
-
Anyway Simon I thought you were banned?
-
zzzz by the time people have stopped chatting about this the ncca will be another 25 years older. Richard sleeping zzzz
-
Mike,
Is that wishful thinking on you're part? ;D
-
No Simon I wouldn't want to see you banned as you have a lot of knowledge and insights on the industry, it's just this one now seems to be going around in circles. :)
-
Simon, What if they are in such early stages that they themselves haven't really got anything to tell it's would be members? Perhaps it's too early for transparency?
I think you may have hit the nail on the head there Colin.
Any organisation of any sort surely needs a structure of some sort before going public with any of its ideas on strategy.
Simon
-
been planning it for over a year so i've been told, i know most of the details but swarn to secrecy. 8)
derek
-
GO on tell us ;D
Whos on the commitee ;D
-
who isn't would be easier from what i can gather. ;D
me obviously, simon ahem, i mean mr gerrard for now ;D
glyn and you clinton. think everyone else is.
i'm sounding jealous now so i'll shut up. :-X
derek
-
Ha sory thought you meant the other clean group ;D
-
there is no other
there is only C.L.E.A.N.
TACCA is no more :-[
i've decided not to continue with my hairbrained idea, i don't know enough about the industry to start a new organisation.
i'm gonna concentrate on my own business and become an egotistical money making maniac that way instead. ;D
mwahhhhhhhh haaaaa haaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
derek
-
Jury still out cant wait for the clean white paper to come out ;D ;) ???
Len
-
Jury still out cant wait for the clean white paper to come out ;D ;) ???
Len
you on the lavvy again len ;D
derek
-
Derek ;D
-
Derek
Post was not meant to be derogatory it should have read C.L.E.A.N white paper know green also involved ah politics ::) ;D
Len
-
I have built what i would call a thriving and constantly growing business without the need of any asociation and seem to be doing alright!
Don't believe there is any need of a new association. Sounds like there are to many people with not enough work that should be concentrating on there own business and not jumping from one idea to another!
who is behind it, or need i ask is it the clique?
Cheers Goron
-
Goron
Dose the name of Nick spring to mind ;D ;D ;) :-*
Len
-
I think the 3rd degree burns on the fingers are still healing, and probably the psychological scars too. ;D
-
You ARE joking Len ............
-
Don't know Len, to be honest reading this was the first i heard of the new association
-
just spoke to him and it is not him!
-
I would be very surprised if any suppliers of products or services will be involved as the people behind it are mostly, it seems, anti establishment and reckon they could do better. than existing training providers or marketing organisations.
They may, of course be absolutely correct in their assumptions and it would be only fair and sensible to allow them the opportunity of publicising their agenda for prospects to examine.