Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: PCNW on September 14, 2009, 12:41:31 am
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Just wondering if any of you would undercut rivals for long term gains like looking to eventually raise the prices and increase the value of your business whilst building a stronger customer base?
This is how ive operated and how ive built my business however many seem against it in principle but it makes perfect business sense to put rivals out of business and take their business away
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never
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some times ive gone onto estates not with any intension of undercutting and got enough work for one day which im happy with and we provided a much better service also-There are wcs we have as friends and we dont work in each others areas - Some estates we are more expensive but this strategy ive used for quick expansion and long term gain - What i can t understand is that in any other business where the was healthy competition this would be seen as good business but in window cleaning its seen as stealing
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it is stealing, we window cleaners have always had an understanding, simple as it may seem to you, ask the custy if they have a w/c. if they say yes, walk away, not becouse of fear of the window cleaner bashing me, it is called respect, you wont be saying all this stuff if it happened to you,
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it very nearly did thats why i adopted this strategy early on
Im just asking why this isnt seen as good business
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it is stealing, we window cleaners have always had an understanding, simple as it may seem to you, ask the custy if they have a w/c. if they say yes, walk away, not becouse of fear of the window cleaner bashing me, it is called respect, you wont be saying all this stuff if it happened to you,
Is that what asda say to tesco when they cut their prices?
Its like sky saying to virgin media we wont advertise in this area because you have more customers there
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if you have already lost business to other w/c, you need to ask yourself, why are you losing them, alway communicate with your custys, dont be scared to ask them if there are any problems, i ask this always when i am collecting payments, you need to keep close contact with your customers,
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it is stealing, we window cleaners have always had an understanding, simple as it may seem to you, ask the custy if they have a w/c. if they say yes, walk away, not becouse of fear of the window cleaner bashing me, it is called respect, you wont be saying all this stuff if it happened to you,
Is that what asda say to tesco when they cut their prices?
Its like sky saying to virgin media we wont advertise in this area because you have more customers there
no its not
dont think you can put yourself i the same league as the big 4 supermarkets. or sky!
we're window cleaners, mostly sole traders working domestic rounds.
commercial i see differently, fair game to price how you want to get a contract thats out to tender, but to aggresively underprice to remove a fellow window cleaner from an estate who is just making his wage, is unforgivable and not business at all .
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Is that what asda say to tesco when they cut their prices?
Its like sky saying to virgin media we wont advertise in this area because you have more customers there
You're being a bit naive....Tesco will cut the price on one product to raise it on another. Really when you pay full price for anything in a supermarket, you are paying a premium. The real price for the item is the sale price. The other price is one they can get away with.
With window cleaning there is a difference. Work takes a certain amount of time, and if you undercharge it will be tricky to recover the money.
Aside from the moral of the whole thing. If I am asked to price a house that has a windy I will consider why he charges that price. It's that price for a reason.
To be cheapest at something shows little imagination and shows one as being a poor salesman. Any fool can be the cheapest.
Let's hope your area isn't flooded by the poor people happy to make £5 an hour. I would like to see you undercut them.
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I work British custies in 6 areas, all squaddies, the rest are Germans. In 3 of these areas, I have 2 other WC's. I am the most expensive and have lost none to the other WC's even though in some cases, they are upto 20% cheaper than me. The longest squaddie custy that I have is 3 years, because they move every 2 or 3 years. So really, I am wide open to other WC's undercutting me.
I think it's not as easy as you imagine to build a biz by undercutting. In your head, maybe. But I get the impression that you aren't really a WC at all, and if you are, at best, a part time one.
Just my opinion.
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Just wondering if any of you would undercut rivals for long term gains like looking to eventually raise the prices and increase the value of your business whilst building a stronger customer base?
This is how ive operated and how ive built my business however many seem against it in principle but it makes perfect business sense to put rivals out of business and take their business away
I dislike that window cleaning business model so much, I wouldn't even do it to you.
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it is stealing, we window cleaners have always had an understanding, simple as it may seem to you, ask the custy if they have a w/c. if they say yes, walk away, not becouse of fear of the window cleaner bashing me, it is called respect, you wont be saying all this stuff if it happened to you,
Is that what asda say to tesco when they cut their prices?
Its like sky saying to virgin media we wont advertise in this area because you have more customers there
It's a fact of life that most window cleaning businesses are small and that such tactics impact much more directly on a person's wellbeing. No problem with getting work in a new area where others work. It's the bit about trying to persuade a householder who already has a service to switch by artificially dropping the price in order to increase it later. Even the customers lose respect for you when you do that.
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i think there is a elephant i the room.
so i will say it.
some window cleaners are plain greedy and think their hourly rate matches solicitors. if you want to charge 30 quid for 2o mins work, and your customer is asking others for quotes. i hate to tell you they aint happy with your price.
business is business. say you have 2 shops in your street and you want a mars bar one sells them for 40p the others sell them for 80p, where do you buy yours. if both shops meet the price in the middle then bingo, both shops keep customers. that rarely happens but the cheaper one has room to increase his price and keep a good stock of happy satisfied customers. the expensive one will lose customers.
over the past few years on this forum, the talk of earnings has got to the level of stupidity. 3 years ago £20 an hour was seen as very good and achievable. so we priced with that in mind. now it seems that it become a free for all and some think their hourly rate should be a lot higher. then they moan when someone takes work from them. some of the biggest window cleaners on here never talk about earnings. i have always found that people who brag about what they earn are usualy telling porkies.
i aint cheap i aint dear but i have not lost a customer to another window cleaner in too many year to remember.
and yes i would take a customer who is being over charged. did it last week.
a row of 4 small 3 story town houses, only 5 windows and a french door per house, easy access back and front. all four easily done in 30 mins. his price £20 each. now i got four very happy customers who have already got me more work.
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I am not cheap nor am I out to rip anybody off but I was doing a house last week and the neighbour asked me for a quote,I did so and I thought it was a fair quote,not too cheap and not to expensive,she agreed on the price and then told me her WC charged £15.00 more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thats almost double the price I quoted her :o :o :o :o :o
She was delighted and I got the job,some WC's are far too greedy and it's not my buisness to ask if she has one already,thats buisness I'm afraid,I don't see myself as under cutting but expanding my buisness fairly,if I was going around over pricing work I am sure I would lose a few as well,if not all my work,be realistic guys ;)
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Good posts, I think the original idea that most of us started with was just to earn a living. For most of us thats what we do.
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i think there is a elephant i the room.
so i will say it.
some window cleaners are plain greedy and think their hourly rate matches solicitors. if you want to charge 30 quid for 2o mins work, and your customer is asking others for quotes. i hate to tell you they aint happy with your price.
business is business. say you have 2 shops in your street and you want a mars bar one sells them for 40p the others sell them for 80p, where do you buy yours. if both shops meet the price in the middle then bingo, both shops keep customers. that rarely happens but the cheaper one has room to increase his price and keep a good stock of happy satisfied customers. the expensive one will lose customers.
over the past few years on this forum, the talk of earnings has got to the level of stupidity. 3 years ago £20 an hour was seen as very good and achievable. so we priced with that in mind. now it seems that it become a free for all and some think their hourly rate should be a lot higher. then they moan when someone takes work from them. some of the biggest window cleaners on here never talk about earnings. i have always found that people who brag about what they earn are usualy telling porkies.
i aint cheap i aint dear but i have not lost a customer to another window cleaner in too many year to remember.
and yes i would take a customer who is being over charged. did it last week.
a row of 4 small 3 story town houses, only 5 windows and a french door per house, easy access back and front. all four easily done in 30 mins. his price £20 each. now i got four very happy customers who have already got me more work.
I hear what you say but I think it is also important to bear in mind the higher costs of running WFP. Just the fact of having WFP demands a higher hourly rate. This doesn't equate to charging the customer more though - it just means that the job needs to be done more quickly. The costs of replacing poles, filters, fittings, hoses etc are not trivial nor is needing to run a larger van due to weight issues. Not all of us are able to do this from home either (I live in a flat) so some kind of premises is needed and that has to be paid for. There is also the (much) higher water bill if on a meter. In short, having WFP costs £x per hour more than working trad so this should be reflected in the price. The money the customer pays is turnover - not income. Even though my business is not the most cost effective, £30 for 20 minutes does still sound on the high side. I do have a couple of commercial jobs where I hit that level. I priced (and got) them before I had started properly realising the potential speed of working with WFP on jobs where there is bulk cleaning. Just as well I have to do them at the weekend I suppose when no-one is about. Having said that, the first couple of cleans were a lot longer and I needed to use a modular pole. I speeded up when I got the SL-X and could do it telescopically. So I did spend a few hundred pounds to achieve that rate of turnover (though obviously I use it on other work too.
I have a couple of town houses too where I charge £20. Not many windows but they are very large ones. Also, the access has to be pre-arranged for when people are in as I have to go through the house with backpack. This all means that I need to do them on a Sunday. It means I'm workingf in a way that I dislike (I have built my round on not pre-arranging nearly all jobs) and giving up a bit of the weekend so I think I'm entitled to charge premium rate for that. The £40 takes about 45 minutes.
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iv only been on here a short time and iv seen pcnw as he,s now known turning the screw a few times but you lot always take the bait and he knows this i think theres a big differance between getting work of another windy whoes way overpriced it and having a very aggresive undercutting policy it would be interesting if a load of polish workers as iv seen in mancheser did this to him,theres a few windys round here from st,hehens is this becouse he,s driven them out of town ::).
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i should add to that that we,re not nieve we know bussness is about making money and beating your competiters, sky called here the other day and seid thay were cheaper than my current suppliers,i did,nt want to know as im happy with who im with, but thats a massive company when window cleaners employ the same strateges it impacts a mans living and directly takes food from his familys mouth so by saying you go undercutting to remove windowcleaners from a estate you are really out of order and im just glad i did,et buy any work from you if thats how you attained it :o
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i didnt say this is how i canvass now this was my strategy when i first took the plunge into self-employment and all the rounds i gained like this where actually the first to sell - What i was asking was why do many wcs respect each others "patches" when theres no such thing
When i canvass now im not desperate for work so i just quote the best price possible and one im happy with and sounds reasonable to the customer just happens that we are one of the expensive window cleaners in st helens but we provide a service to the highest standard with what i think is exeptional customer service
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i find that a lot of my custys have had other WCs trying on my rounds to undercut etc at least 3 or 4 times a year.not lost one in 15 yrs.its a bad way to do business in my book.you,ll make enemys.i get on with my custys and do a proper job,regular,and not too greedy with pricing and always keep my word and be honest and the trust will come in time and u will never lose a custy to w****rs like the dickhead who started this post.he wont last long in this business. ;Ddomestic custys are fiercely loyal to a good honest WC i find.hard work and charm and honesty have got me far further than underhand tactics.what goes around,comes around
regards dazmond
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Wouldn't knowingly undercut anyone. At the end of the day i wouldn't want to take food off the table for him and his family.
However, if they haven't been about for a while and the customers says that they've disappeared i don't have a problem.
I charge what i think is fair and never budge on my quote. Undercutting just devalues you and your business, so many people do it on the cheap.....no insurance etc which allows them to charge less, but you get what you pay for in the end.
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Well I'm based in the same area as PCNW so have an interest in how he gets work from "my area's". Here's how I see it..
I've learnt from other businesses that is usually works out better financially in a service trade to market yourself as the quality service rather than the poundshop. Even with local businesses like this openly admitting they build rounds by undercutting and giving a price so low that it would need to be raised later to make it viable, I still stick to my methods of pricing what I feel is a fair wage for the job, no underpricing, no overpricing, just what I estimate is the right price.
I don't see the logic in having to raise the price later, surely you can then be beat by someone who canvasses in your area who's doing the same thing, and the circle goes on....
I'd rather aim to win the customers who are interested in quality, reliable services and who aren't daft enough or tight enough to believe price is the main focus when choosing someone to work on their home. You're more likely to keep these customers when someone knocks them with a price that's half what you charge, because they value the service they get on other factors than price. That's why when I canvass I go in clean branded workwear, hand over a card before I've even got the first sentence out and before offering the price I get across a sentence about the professional way I work. Then they have the option of choosing me because of wanting a low price OR quality.
Just last week I canvassed an area where 2 different cleaners had been charging £4 for detached houses, not huge but plenty of glass. I priced at over £8 and got plenty of customers who wanted better than the unreliable service they'd had before. So the main reason I won those customers was reliability NOT price. Not every customer wants the cheapest service, some just want better. Go canvassing on that road and try to offer a knock down price and you'll see that approach doesn't work.
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your just a young blagger danny boy who just likes to stir it up ;D
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Also, I don't hold anything against someone who markets their services by undercutting, it's a tried and tested method of building business, just like supermarkets offering a "loss leader" to get people through the doors. BUT, it's the type of customer that it attracts that makes me choose a different method of building customers.
I'd rather do 50 houses for £8 rather than 100 for £4. It'll take longer to get the customers, but the round and working hours are obviously worth a lot more, and those customers who choose values other than cost alone are much more likely to stay loyal when a cheaper cleaner comes knocking :)
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I'm off out now, to do my new road of 12 x £8 houses (so far), I suppose the old cleaners who where unreliable but charged £4 would have had to start at 9 to try and get twice as much done to make the days wage. It's 10.45 now, so I've still got time to call for some brekky first ;D :P
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hi tony i think your missing the point he,s not interested in long term providing a good service ect,ect hes interested in removing people like you to make a round more saleable :
Getting rid of rivals also let you price you work at what you want so in the long term you can dictate however much you charge and how compact you want to make your rounds i.e allowing you to expand at whatever pace you want
Any other business this would be seen as good business
i seen on here he then sells those rounds at a nice proffit and builds more a business in itself.
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i didnt say this is how i canvass now this was my strategy when i first took the plunge into self-employment and all the rounds i gained like this where actually the first to sell - What i was asking was why do many wcs respect each others "patches" when theres no such thing
When i canvass now im not desperate for work so i just quote the best price possible and one im happy with and sounds reasonable to the customer just happens that we are one of the expensive window cleaners in st helens but we provide a service to the highest standard with what i think is exeptional customer service
That's interesting, that's not what you said on the other thread! ;D
Be ruthless
I go on estates where i know there are window cleaners then i severely undercut them - Put them out of business on the estate then whipe up their business and make it mine then rise the prices to suit your price range - This allows me to grow my business, customer base, potential for further profits and raises the value of my business in the process
If you are argue a point, it's always best to be consistent, don't you think...
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I see exactly what he's doing, but he won't take many of my customers who don't hold price as the main bargaining tool, that's my point.
I too intend to sell my domestic rounds off in a few years, and hopefully they'll be worth a nice lump sum.
I also have an interest in round building then sale for business gain, and have some houses that are won purely to do this with, even though they're still won on the quality/reliability/trust/professionalism type of marketing so worth more than a round at basic prices without the need to try and raise the price before selling, so I'm able to sell faster, in my eyes anyway.
My main objective is too build a window cleaning business with the view to the best saleable price in the future, so everything I do is based on my exit. I'm just about to launch a domestic cleaning business, with the same future exit in mind and not keeping all my eggs in one basket. I also still do some car detailing and I'm trained / do a little part time paintless dent repair too, which helps with the odd used car sale that I do mainly to keep my hand in - All this because I LOVE cars, and have plans for a nice prestige/sports car sales business with detailing and car care services - whether I ever get there though... time will tell....... :-\
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i used to undercut when i was starting out to get the customers firstly on price giving us the oppurtunity to show how high of a standard our service was then once we raised the prices you would be surprised how much people will be willing to pay for a good reliably service - This also allowed us to see who was going to be a problem sustomer and who wasnt - In the end all this work i gained through this method sold straight away - I now canvass fairly and like i said we have an excellent reputation for quality and we do respect certain window cleaners who are not on the dole and who arnt smackheads
The question i wanted was why is this method i used not seen as good business as you have more control over your clients and who you would keep and who not to. The key is to supply the customer, Look after the customer, be the best and most reliable at the lowest price and people will come flocking then increase prices to suit you - Short term hardship for longterm gain
I dont do this anymore but the like of the recession people are led by the pounds - If the quality of service your providing is much better you will get jobs easy but if the competition is strong maybe you have no options
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In the construction industry many tenders are given term like the lowest price to win the job
We can provide low tenders due to lower overheads. Any other industry this is good business - Like ive said once the low price give me the option to show our professionalism before putting the prices up sometime more than 200% and kept most custys through our quality and reliability
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Be ruthless
I go on estates where i know there are window cleaners then i severely undercut them - Put them out of business on the estate then whipe up their business and make it mine then rise the prices to suit your price range - This allows me to grow my business, customer base, potential for further profits and raises the value of my business in the process
if thats the case m8 no more info should be given by any member here, am sorry , but you are out off line m8, business or not,
So how do I understand your point here? If you say something in one thread, why not stick to it in another thread? Like JOUK and Leaps said, be at least consistent.
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In the construction industry many tenders are given term like the lowest price to win the job
We can provide low tenders due to lower overheads. Any other industry this is good business - Like ive said once the low price give me the option to show our professionalism before putting the prices up sometime more than 200% and kept most custys through our quality and reliability
Do you employ someone to write out your tenders?
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Thats how i expanded rapidly - I dont need to expand rapidly so i do use this method anymore plus im finishing window cleaning in the next few months
Was asking why people cant see this as good business?
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In the construction industry many tenders are given term like the lowest price to win the job
We can provide low tenders due to lower overheads. Any other industry this is good business - Like ive said once the low price give me the option to show our professionalism before putting the prices up sometime more than 200% and kept most custys through our quality and reliability
Do you employ someone to write out your tenders?
My Quantity Surveyor why
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Well, I thought so. Just a niggly point that bothered me before.
The way you have described undercutting as a method of building a biz, gets up some peoples noses for at least one good reason. WCing is a biz that just about any able bodied person, with more than the IQ of a cat
can build, without a huge investment. Some people see it as a business, others as a window cleaning round. Not really complicated, just a biz that even I could run.
Along comes some guy, ambitious, like yourself, and rips it to shreads. No wonder people get a bit out of shape with your attitude. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? The other point I wanted to make was, if you have a point, or an opinion, stick to it and don't try to be all things to all people. Like you said once, it's business, not personal.
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I advertise my business, and sell my service at a set price regardless of any other window cleaners price, it is based on how much it costs me to run my business. I have heard customers paying W/C's £2 for 15 windows. If there is someone who cant see how mindless it is to continually undercut each other regardless of expenses and time spent on a job, I don't mean to be rude but you are being naive. Its not success to be the cheapest and have to most customers. Turnover is very important to a business model. Yes you want a larger share of the market, but what's the point if someone else who you undercut sticks at the more reasonable price and could be making the same profit with less customers, and room to take on more better paid work. You business will never get past a one man band sole trader, if that's the business model you adopt.
Also what you will be inclined to do it cut corners, to try and make a little more money, because your round is full of ridiculous low prices, and you will be beat on quality of work. Also tell me something, if you just intend on sticking the price up latter, do you not think the guy will come back. Customers who take you on because you are practically giving your service away will drop you the minute you put your prices up for someone cheaper, and there will always be someone else who will come along, and try the same stunt, its guaranteed and not as original as you might think.
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I advertise my business, and sell my service at a set price regardless of any other window cleaners price, it is based on how much it costs me to run my business. I have heard customers paying W/C's £2 for 15 windows. If there is someone who cant see how mindless it is to continually undercut each other regardless of expenses and time spent on a job, I don't mean to be rude but you are being naive. Its not success to be the cheapest and have to most customers. Turnover is very important to a business model. Yes you want a larger share of the market, but what's the point if someone else who you undercut sticks at the more reasonable price and could be making the same profit with less customers, and room to take on more better paid work. You business will never get past a one man band sole trader, if that's the business model you adopt.
Also what you will be inclined to do it cut corners, to try and make a little more money, because your round is full of ridiculous low prices, and you will be beat on quality of work. Also tell me something, if you just intend on sticking the price up latter, do you not think the guy will come back. Customers who take you on because you are practically giving your service away will drop you the minute you put your prices up for someone cheaper, and there will always be someone else who will come along, and try the same stunt, its guaranteed and not as original as you might think.
This is the point your missing - Once i got the customers i put prices up to prices much higher then they where for the other cleaner - We turned over £250 a day from 5-6 hrs work easily and these rounds sold first as there was no competition left in the area -
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The pricees on my rounds are very good for the area this is the north
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Well, I thought so. Just a niggly point that bothered me before.
The way you have described undercutting as a method of building a biz, gets up some peoples noses for at least one good reason. WCing is a biz that just about any able bodied person, with more than the IQ of a cat
can build, without a huge investment. Some people see it as a business, others as a window cleaning round. Not really complicated, just a biz that even I could run.
Along comes some guy, ambitious, like yourself, and rips it to shreads. No wonder people get a bit out of shape with your attitude. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? The other point I wanted to make was, if you have a point, or an opinion, stick to it and don't try to be all things to all people. Like you said once, it's business, not personal.
Its is business at the end of the day thats why i could be that ruthless - In 9 months i put 3 wcs out of business and if it was personel id have flet guilty not pleased but then i realised the business had grew too fast and we couldnt expand anymore so i sold up - One was on the dole and i found out was claiming sick pay - Simple enough i did this to expand - dont do it anymore not looking to expand but why cant this be good business
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The pricees on my rounds are very good for the area this is the north
So you went in to an area, undercut the WC there and the custies stayed with you. Couple of months later, you put the new price in and it was higher than the old WC's price and the custies stayed with you,then after a couple of months you sold the round to another WC, who charges the same prices as you and the custies stayed with him. So now the custies have the third WC in a year at higher prices than before, and this works, right?
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Correct they had me for a year then i sold and the current wc is telling me hes picked up 8 more in the first 6 10 weeks
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we wernt only cheaper not many wcs can match us on quality - Cheaper and better quality plus customers know what day we clean and exactly when we collect - We are very reliable
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OK mate, but, some blokes on here, not me by the way, have been in this game since the age of 16. Some of them are over 55 now, and any one of these blokes will tell you, it's not about price. OK, so some of the WC's you bumped out were crap. So why did you have to go in at a lower price?
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Gave us an advantage to provide a much better service at a lower price eliminating the competition then putting prices up - The loyal stayed with us the price consious didnt - I understand quality is very important thats why we could put prices up by upto 200% on the previous cleaner
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There is no way if you tried that here it would fly with customers, and that's in the north too. There is nothing illegal about what you are talking about, but I suspect now that your lying m8. I could be wrong but thats what I think. Also regardless of that.
If you came into my area, and did that to me, I doubt my customers would move over to you, but if allot did, and I was going out of business because of it, I would match your qoute, then put the prices back up when you disappear. I would also take or sent them a few of your qouts from this and regardless of the legality of it, the public and I suspect allot of the window cleaners on here would view you as a rouge, that wont last a minute.
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Ever heard the expression, "Give a man enough rope"?
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If i didnt undercut its fair to say id have no work 8)
Only joking, never undercut on domestic work, its very naughty >:( >:( >:( >:(
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There is no way if you tried that here it would fly with customers, and that's in the north too. There is nothing illegal about what you are talking about, but I suspect now that your lying m8. I could be wrong but thats what I think. Also regardless of that.
If you came into my area, and did that to me, I doubt my customers would move over to you, but if allot did, and I was going out of business because of it, I would match your qoute, then put the prices back up when you disappear. I would also take or sent them a few of your qouts from this and regardless of the legality of it, the public and I suspect allot of the window cleaners on here would view you as a rouge, that wont last a minute.
The rounds i have sold are expanding nicely - The one i kept i got alittle more then a was asking for it. If you would put your prices down to match mine id have dropped them again and again till it was worth your trouble-If you stuck it out id do the work for £1 with a free clean thrown in each time - It was an investment not a business then
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There is no way if you tried that here it would fly with customers, and that's in the north too. There is nothing illegal about what you are talking about, but I suspect now that your lying m8. I could be wrong but thats what I think. Also regardless of that.
If you came into my area, and did that to me, I doubt my customers would move over to you, but if allot did, and I was going out of business because of it, I would match your qoute, then put the prices back up when you disappear. I would also take or sent them a few of your qouts from this and regardless of the legality of it, the public and I suspect allot of the window cleaners on here would view you as a rouge, that wont last a minute.
The rounds i have sold are expanding nicely - The one i kept i got alittle more then a was asking for it. If you would put your prices down to match mine id have dropped them again and again till it was worth your trouble-If you stuck it out id do the work for £1 with a free clean thrown in each time - It was an investment not a business then
If you could do it, so could I, people wouldn't just give up there lively hood easily, and customer wont stand for ridiculous mark-ups. Also while you are busy doing all them houses for £1 I will make a better living, because lets face it, you can only do so much charity work, then when you sell the business, I will sent a letter out to all these customers who are now paying double what I was charging them, and take the customers back.
Its doesn't work in theory and I doubt it has ever worked in practice.
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There is a few satisfied WCs you can ask. The customers loved the service we brought and when we upped the prices we only lost 6 on all 4 rounds - We provide exceptional quality and reliability plus we would offer extra services for their money - We would even clean garage doors for free on the first 3 months cleans- Thats was when i was expanding as long as the round sutstained itself ie wages for the lad i would be happy to wait
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It doesn't matter what service you offer, or what you do for free if you are just building to sell to another window cleaner. Its the service they receive after you disappear. Also more to the point the bill they are left with after they have made the mistake of switching to you. You wouldn't keep the customers for long, no chance.
That's why you don't stick around, after you have milked the customer and window cleaner who buys the work off you. If you really do what you say.
Also if you are for real, and are making a fortune from putting window cleaners out of business like that, who in there right mind would come on to a window cleaners forum and lay out all there plans and methods, its not smart and is why I think you are pulling our leg here.
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wrong i keep in touch with all wcs who bought my work and they are thrieving - I still see some customers as they are local and not heard a bad word mate
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i know my business well and it proved it when i sold the work that i got through these means
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Went on one round in widnes the guy charged £6 a fortnight just windows - I took them all for £5 a month plus frames then put the prices upto £10+ a month
Sold the round and its still expanding - i went in got the business, grew the business i had then moved on
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pcnw whats the name of your company is it something and scrim based st helens
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It's been said a million times before...but...
...if I'm ASKED "How much"? Then I'll give a price. Might be cheaper...might be dearer...but that's my price for your house.
If the customer says "Can you be my window cleaner"? Then if I've undercut somebody...tough titty...that's commerce for you!
But never ever ever ask how much they're paying and offer to do it for less.
Why?
It's not so much because you're taking the bread out of a fellow window cleaners mouth (after all we're in this game to make money for ourselves) but by deliberately undercutting you're lowering the benchmark for the entire area.
So: A 3 bed semi that cleaned for £10 and somebody says"£8" and the offer is taken up...suddenly everybody in the street wants the same £8 clean....and then £8 becomes the going rate.
Then some coconut comes along and says "£6"....
...where does it end?
Rather than deliberately undercut perhaps people should aspire to the higher prices some window cleaners can command.
Of course if you're a crap window cleaner then £2ph is too much for you ;D
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Went on one round in widnes the guy charged £6 a fortnight just windows - I took them all for £5 a month plus frames then put the prices upto £10+ a month
Sold the round and its still expanding - i went in got the business, grew the business i had then moved on
what happened to the bloke charging £6 and his family? are you the godfather of st helens windowcleaners? do you decide who makes a living in this game? i felt the same watching that bloke on dragons den it all boils down to greed.
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It's been said a million times before...but...
...if I'm ASKED "How much"? Then I'll give a price. Might be cheaper...might be dearer...but that's my price for your house.
If the customer says "Can you be my window cleaner"? Then if I've undercut somebody...tough titty...that's commerce for you!
But never ever ever ask how much they're paying and offer to do it for less.
Why?
It's not so much because you're taking the bread out of a fellow window cleaners mouth (after all we're in this game to make money for ourselves) but by deliberately undercutting you're lowering the benchmark for the entire area.
So: A 3 bed semi that cleaned for £10 and somebody says"£8" and the offer is taken up...suddenly everybody in the street wants the same £8 clean....and then £8 becomes the going rate.
Then some coconut comes along and says "£6"....
...where does it end?
Rather than deliberately undercut perhaps people should aspire to the higher prices some window cleaners can command.
Of course if you're a crap window cleaner then £2ph is too much for you ;D
I think what PCNW did by the sounds of it is found out the cleaner did them for £6 and offered his services for £5. Which is without doubt morally wrong.
Dean
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Then some coconut comes along and says "£6"....
that made me laugh, coconut, your a funny man. But completely agree, its more about teaching the public what is actually cost to do the job, and keeping the prices in-line with inflation rather than sending the industry back to the 1950's.
But this guy is having a laugh with us surely. If I changed to a cheaper window cleaner, then ended up paying more money 12 months down the line, I would feel that I had been done, and would go back to my last window cleaner with my tail between my legs.
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this is ballderdash there will be no competion left? there will allways be
window cleaners starting up you would just be working long hours for nothing
or relieing on selling to make your money assuming you didnt get kneecapt
by someone youd crossed'
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I would never undercut another local window cleaner. What's the point in undercutting and ending up with work that's underpriced which will at a later time be dropped for better paid work when your round is full. If you have a roundfull of underpriced work how do you manage to put away for rainy days, emergencies, holiday and sickness pay?
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hmmm same things happening in painting game 2 yrs ago the going rate was £11-12 pr hr a freind of mine who runs a shop fitting business seid hes now getting tenders were painters are saying thay,ll work for £6 per hr just to keep in work poles are going back home better wages there now.
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pcnw i do my job cos i love it 22 years no exit stratagum i love my little job so do many more on here we are window cleaners we are not fixated on profit and the next touch giid luck when you leave but dont help to decimate our industry you never know when you might need it again
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Like i said before i dont operate this way anymore- once i got all the work i raised the prices to more than they were before therefore raising the areas going rate as i charged more then the origional window cleaner - The aim was to put get themout of the area - When i did this i was in danger of losing my work plus not being able topay te repayments on my debts i took out for van/equipment and to buy a few rounds to get started so at first it was out of fear of failure but then i got more money then i thought was possible and got rid of wcs and raised the prices higher then before but our quality of clean sold them prices - I had more overheads plus staff from day one now i dont need that many houses as my overheads are slashed and im more experienced...
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Like i said before i dont operate this way anymore- once i got all the work i raised the prices to more than they were before therefore raising the areas going rate as i charged more then the origional window cleaner - The aim was to put get themout of the area - When i did this i was in danger of losing my work plus not being able topay te repayments on my debts i took out for van/equipment and to buy a few rounds to get started - I had more overheads plus staff from day one now i dont need that many houses
You need to leave that funny wacky baccy alone ???
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thanks love but i dontsmoke it im naturaly high
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thanks love but i dontsmoke it im naturaly a plonker
sorted that for you ;D
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so PCNW your aim when you started was to undercut everyone, drive them out of the area them pump up the prices, so what is stopping people doing this to you, it cant be customer loyalty as they all dumped there window cleaner to go to you, could this be the reason that you are selling your rounds as people are under cutting you and you are losing work and that is why you want to get rid of your bro in law
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I remember when Stagecoach (the bus company) was taking over routes all over the place. They would try to buy out local operators, and if they refused to sell they massacred them.
They would set up bus stops a few yards from the local operators, and run 6 buses to their 1. They would also charge like half the price for a fare.
Stagecoach was a big business and could easily afford to run at a loss like that, but it put the local operators out of business within a few months.
Once they had the market to themselves with no competition, they raised prices far higher than they ever had been. So by the same token, PCNWs strategy is a sound one...
BUT this is window cleaning, and IMO there is more than enough work out there for everyone, there just isnt any need to try to take work of other people.
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Hi PCNW you can come round by me if you wish and try and under cut me and some others but your get one almighty kicking and you won't do it again ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So you dont carry out this business practise anymore, and your packing in window cleaning shortly. What exactly motivated you to start this post? Strikes me your just a wind up merchant.
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I don't go out of my way to undercut, but imagine if for some unknown reason you lost lots of work.
I know i would do anything to keep paying my bills, mortgage, etc, also keeping the family in the living style they are used to.
EVEN IF THAT MEANS UNDERCUTTING OTHERS
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Once they had the market to themselves with no competition, they raised prices far higher than they ever had been. So by the same token, PCNWs strategy is a sound one...
Certainly it is for stagecoach, but to start a trad window cleaning business costs a few hundred, whereas a coach business costs millions. There's no way you'd ever drive all the competition out of the market.
Besides, if you tried it in my area, I know there are other window cleaners who are not as civil as myself, who would make your life a living hell.
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Quote your price, if your cheaper then you are, don't purposely undercut but there is nothing wrong with a bit of competition. You are a business at the end of the day
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To make a policy of undercutting is short sighted.
If you go along and say 'Well you are paying £10 but I'll do it for £8' then you are lowering the value (in people's eyes) of the work both you and every other window cleaner does.
A continued erosion of the price merely leads to it being difficult to get a fair price for your work
I would suggest you read 'The ragged trousered philanthropists' along with 'The Grapes of wrath' Both books illustrate what happens when a large body of desperate people under cut each other. The only winner is the person who gets you to do the work for a pittance.
Do the more intelligent thing, only work for the right price, it takes longer to build a round, but it's better than being a busy fool.
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Once i got the work i out the prices back up again to more than they were before - The only reason i built rounds like this was i was in danger of losing alot of work so instead of fighting it out i expanded rapidly. The guys who tried to get my work were dealt with but as i said i would never expand this way again because it brought trouble like i expected it to but at the time i didnt think i had much choice - Now when i canvass i just go for a price im happy with and i know the business can operate at a profit after tax/wages etc with no intensions of undercutting -
As for the question i was only saying any other sector this way of getting rid of competition is good business - As for wcs getting angry we have had and given our fare share abuse and at first we did make life hard for alot of wcs but we are now very co-operative - This also helps our business image because wcs chasing each other and fighting etc wont gain you customers
Thanks for the replys anyway
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Not sure if my answer makes sense. If they ask for a quote give them one. If you are purposely undercutting then shame on you, but if they choose your price over someones elses and they are your rates then so be it. As I said, this is business.
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Building a business by undercutting short term is madness long term is bonkers as these type of customer are throw away. they will leave as soon as the next undercutter comes, this does in a way help me ;D
If I am asked to quote I do, but I am not intersted in others prices nor undercutting them, im not the cheapest out there or the most expensive,
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I thought platinum was only keeping his remaining window cleaningrounds for his employee as he was concentrating on his construction business.
Then he decides to get rid of his employee who is supposedly cleaning the round for him.
He also asks how to price jobs(pubs) even tho he is an experienced window cleaner and should know how to price jobs. Even tho you havnt cleaned similar jobs how are you ever going to get on in the construction industry!! ask fellow builders how to price construction jobs like you ask fellow window cleaners how to price jobs.
By the looks of his latest listing he is concentrating more on his window cleaning than construction!!
To me this guy dosnt know whether he is coming or going, if he is experienced in window cleaning then he dosnt know how to price jobs. To me he is in the land of make believe.
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im currently waiting iso accredition on the construction side and yes i have got rid of my employee - the rounds are for sale and i number of buyers are viewing the rounds in the next few weeks - Im enjoying what im doing and things are progressing nicely - As for pubs i havent cleaned pubs and im not going too as the pub in question only wanted a clean every 6 months and was caked in smoke on the inside and dirt on the outside
Thanks again for the posts
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PCNW
Are you serious?
Dean
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very ;D
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PCNW
Are you serious?
Dean
I think he's playing "The Sims"
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OMG the very opinionated WC
Thanks love
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OMG the very opinionated WC
Thanks love
Do you work for another window cleaning company PCNW?
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lol ;D
This is why i love this forum with the characters that are posting
Its just a laugh
There are some great people here though whos running some very serious businesses
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lol ;D
This is why i love this forum with the characters that are posting
Its just a laugh
There are some great people here though whos running some very serious businesses
not you
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dont get upset
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PCNW
You are fake mate
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cheers mate
so are port vale
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dont get upset
upset? moi? lol
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cheers mate
so are port vale
PCNW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSDc1TF8MSA
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cheers mate
so are port vale
PCNW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSDc1TF8MSA
;D
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never ever ever undercut my price is my price and thats it a few yrs ago 1 guy said to me if you charge me less than my current window cleaner i let u clean my windys i just walked away and said no chance