Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: geefree on September 10, 2009, 07:24:46 pm
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Hi,
When you had one round, and it was eventually bursting at the seams,
Did you expand my employing a part time helper,?
and build again. then make him, or employ someone full time.
or did you buy more work to quickly integrate it into your existing work?
and have someone run it for you,...and shave some off your existing round and pass it to your employee.....to make your round easier.?
it can be a hard and dangerous road ...employing...
i am aproaching being full up....but i dont earn enough,
so my first point of call is to increase prices on , what i believe is now underpriced, and drop some to replace with better paying houses.
Then drop the outlying calls which i took on at the beginning but could not build on them..
when i have done this, i will be ready to turn the corner again.
Any advice would be gratefully received ;D
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I know its a long winded thread and how long is a piece of string etc etc....
but i would be interested what stratagy people put into place when the time comes, rather than blindly building , without a plan...
And where better to ask... than on here?
;)
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for me and the mrs to work flat out 2 days per week and have the other 5 days off for house restoration
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I disagree.
What matters is the total that you earn, the gross. Hourly rate or poorly paid is irrelivant.
Don't compare yourself or try to measure up to the best on here, you will come up short- and you have no idea if they tell the truth or embellish.
There was a thread by a newish starter (i know you've been going a bit gazzasp8) and he wanted to buy in and employ.The work he wanted to buy in was 20ph tops, and the sums don't work when you pay someone to do this.Not least the cash flow required to grow.
The answer to your question is counter intuitive and the one you don't like. To grow you have to go through a period of earning less. Ie, as an example you earn 180pd now, you get a helper and pay 50 to achieve 230, but you also burn through the work faster.
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what i do is when i get a new call i price it up higher than my normal work and if they accept get rid of some of my lower priced stuff therefore your hourly rate goes up and so on
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Spot on Marcus !
Darran
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Thanks Slumpbuster,
i agree with your comments, and it was the answer i wanted,
regarding your last point,
ie.180 pd take a lad on 50pd to make 230, and burn through the work faster.
Then expand ? and use them extra spare days /hours per month to build build build.
And use the guy to help me do this?
Then he earns the same (for the time being)....and i earn more?
Then start again?
Sorry for all the question marks, ;) you know me by now.
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ive been full since i started, remmber in the space of a few months i purchased 3 rounds ( 1 of a guy retiring, 1 of a guy returning back home to oz and a guy winding down in prep for retirement )
i filled in the blanks in the round and its now ideal for me
i worked out last week, i have enough work to work full time ( 5 days a week ) , but because i only work 3 days a week i know i will allways be late ( i say i will be around every 6 - 8 weeks )
i have thought of employing part time, at least till i can work 5 days a week ( when my daughter starts school ) though thats 3 years down the line
i know the amount per hour i can earn, i know the amount per hour i would pay, for the 2 / 3 days a week, the hastle just isnt worth it for me
window cleaning is a fairly stress free life, thats why some start up, you have to decide if you want the hastle of a employee
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This what i did with my brother.
Approached being at full tilt in Dec 2008
Brother got made redundant Jan 2009
Paid him £500.00 p/m out of what I was already earning PLUS topped his wages up with all the new work we got coming when we went leafleting. Since we burned through the work in about 2 weeks we also had 2 weeks leafleting.
June 2009 reached pre-agreed wage earnings through all new customers picked up and now the business gets the new work filtering through. Now only have 1 week to fill to be at full tilt again.
However I have noticed how much more difficult it was to get work in this year compared to last but maybe that's a regional thing. Think i was fortunate with my timing, but you do need to sacrifice in the short term to benefit long term.
I also think that the first person must be the hardest as further expansion will allow me to pay a good proportion of the next employees wages out of the overspill I am looking to create first - say 3-4 days work too much for me to cope with.....then get'em on board and do the same thing again.
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Thank you,
some interesting thoughts to chew on. ;)
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I'm in the same boat. Can't cope with it all. I seem to be going through a process of natural evolution - the jobs I hate or that are poorly priced tend to get left behind for months. Not the ideal solution really. I should be tougher and cull the crap.
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theres no long term future in not employing.
dean
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I'd put all my prices up. I would not under any circumstances go down the road of employing anyone but that is just my own personal experience.
You may loose some customers though but next time you price a new job, add on a couple of quid to whatever price you originally decided. Some potential customer will say no in shock and horror but there are those that are prepared to pay up and are happy to do so.
After a while you'll get used to quoting higher prices.
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i dont know if it going to work but ive did the culling of work and taking on better paid etc. then i approached my local council and interviewed a few young lads and got one good one. the council pay his wages while he works for me for 13 weeks then i get a grant for a further 8 weeks paying his wages in full then 1/2 his wages for another 4 weeks then 1/4 wages for a further 4 weeks and then and if i can afford it i will be responsible for his wages.
if it doesnt work out i will have to let him go but so far it going good
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if u want a long term stable future in this trade i cant stress how important it is to employ.
thats just my view of it,
im right though honestly,
dean
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if u want a long term stable future in this trade i cant stress how important it is to employ.
thats just my view of it,
im right though honestly,
dean
but plenty of 1 man outfits survive
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I wouldnt fancy being a one man band in my 60s matt especially trad,
Fair enough wfp has helped but the way this government is going we'll be working till we are 80.
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I wouldnt fancy being a one man band in my 60s matt especially trad,
Fair enough wfp has helped but the way this government is going we'll be working till we are 80.
loads do though, even on ladders
of course it gets easier, children leave home, house is paid off, i would guess you dont need the same money
now we have WFP, its got tp be easier, lightwieght poles etc etc
the idea of doing a manual job in latter life has to be good, it'll keep you fit and active, nothing worse that sitting at home waiting to die
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i dont know if it going to work but ive did the culling of work and taking on better paid etc. then i approached my local council and interviewed a few young lads and got one good one. the council pay his wages while he works for me for 13 weeks then i get a grant for a further 8 weeks paying his wages in full then 1/2 his wages for another 4 weeks then 1/4 wages for a further 4 weeks and then and if i can afford it i will be responsible for his wages.
if it doesnt work out i will have to let him go but so far it going good
Stu-mac
How did you arrange this mate?
You are right stopping the culling of the work,
Dean
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I wouldnt fancy being a one man band in my 60s matt especially trad,
Fair enough wfp has helped but the way this government is going we'll be working till we are 80.
nothing worse that sitting at home waiting to die
Totally agree there,
Off subject patrick swayze is doing just that so ive just read on aol, very sad.
Dean
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What cleaning windows? That is sad.
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dean it differs from area to area but i went to the business gateway/link in england and asked some advice on expanding and they pointed me to the council who run a employment and training unit where they have shacks loads of cash to get youngsters into work. there is other schemes and grants as well for the older lads looking for work.
it really depends on the area you are in though and whats available money wise. but they agreeded to put my lad through cscs, and ladder asssociation training and any other course i can think of at no cost to me. and they supplied him with my company uniform, and safety boots etc even managed to get a decent supply of micro fibres from them
and when we have did the weeks work me and the lad are out canvassing and leafletting
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I wouldnt fancy being a one man band in my 60s matt especially trad,
Fair enough wfp has helped but the way this government is going we'll be working till we are 80.
nothing worse that sitting at home waiting to die
Totally agree there,
Off subject patrick swayze is doing just that so ive just read on aol, very sad.
Dean
it is very sad, he has put up a battle though
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You do where i come from ;)
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50 jobs?
That would have to be some major contracts a month. ???
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So you've got fifty ten pound jobs a week and it's time to employ - hardly going to pay two wages on that?
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Or £500 of work surely?
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I don't understand what you are saying Ewan.
£500 of work a week can't be split between an employer and an employee - it's not enough money to run a proper buisiness. How can anyone survive on part time money?
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A lot wont post on this that could gazza but i see it as finding out what you suspected is probably true.
By that i mean, when you first come on this forum you think most of the posts are rubbish. People who claim 200 a day etc are fantasists. Then you start to think if you had enough work and you arranged the best paying into one best ever twelve hour stint then possibly...
From there to achieving it is a journey, and to having a day when you view dipping under it on any one day as failure is another.But by now you have seen posts where people run two or three vans and expect each van with a two man team to hit above four. What???? i thought i'd got this sorted and i was the man. Turns out i'm a nobody.
So it goes on. You either believe and follow, or decide it's a load of rubbish and stay as you are. It irritates me that some who claim a lifestyle choice are only too quick to ridicule the life style of others.(ie those that choose five a day as a healthy lifesyle).
If you do decide to expand you need lots of ideas and you need to think about everything.The way i do things is to have the best kit and systems and use anything to add value to my business.This nearly always turns out to be my mind, either nicking ideas off here, from a business book or just doing things better. There aren't enought hours in the day or years in your life to do it all yourself.
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So slumpy, do you feel you've done the right thing? Are your earnings improving?
Have you fallen out with your employee yet?
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i know 1 guy been in the business 24 yrs and would not employ anybody now after 20yrs of let downs his brother has just given up after 10 yrs or so he has gone form trad to wfp as he knows when nhe has perfected wfp he will manage his round on his own , i have never employed anybody and have a sucessful business all on my own
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Well to start with i'm not one of the guys who have done it, in the post title, and am not trying to big myself up.Like you- and ewan for that matter- i'm just kicking the topic about.
I've been very lucky with my helper, reading posts on here it seems it is hard to find someone good. My best ever day solo, is below the base for current earnings.I spend a lot on kit and advertsing.
In the early weeks we ran out of work.When it rains my wife is forever ringing up for me to take him home.All she can see is that we are paying him to do nothing.
If there are opps in the credit crunch, one is that you can get good people that in better times would be doing something more lucrative. I came back from hols a week ago and have twelve pages of george.We are hitting the list very hard but not gaining partly because the housing market has restarted and partly because some of my ideas are working.
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ok.this is how im building and it works for me. I have a part time employee. hes an ex doorman an still does security work mostly on weekends, He does two days with me..on those days I make 33% more than I could on my own..my round is building, and so some weeks I give him 3 or 4 days. building a quality round takes time.
I go door knocking once a week.i dont get rid of underpriced work ... I do it on a friday, if iv run out of work 8)
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Big myself up?
Hardly, you are ahead of me - you employ. I'm still very much a newbie really. I'm not taking the pee, I'm interested to know how you've got on. People are telling me to take someone on but I'm not ready for that and don't think I ever will. I couldn't work day in day out with anyone I'm too picky for that.
I'll probably stay the way i am and maybe try to weed out the worst.
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hiya, it is possible to increase your earnings substantially over time without the hassle of employing.
I advertise a lot, quote expensive for new work, then when i've got too much to cope with get rid of the cheapest/most awkward work.
in the past i've just given work away to my stepdad and brother. a few weeks ago I sold a lump of work as it was too well priced to give away and my stepdad and brother have plenty of work now.
moving forward on my own with a lump sum every 6 months (at a guess). that'll do for me! :D
sickness/accident insurance is useful for a bit of peace of mind as well
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Thanks for all the interesting replies.
It certainly is food for thought, the more i think about it the less i want to employ,
But sometimes i get that busy with facia cleaning and conservatory roofs, that i think it would be great to have a little help,
Then it passes, i catch up ... then i carry on and forget about help,
Then it comes around again,
so maybe you are right Ewan....
These are the wrong reasons to employ..
So what are the right reasons?
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Quote
The ones whose heads have gotten a little large, have gone and started employing far too soon, when they haven’t even achieved a level of success being a sole trader.
Thanks for that ewan. My heads gotten a little large i'll have to remember that ;D ;D.
Gazza there is a physical limit to how much you can earn.To break it you need top end kit and systems.But this still puts you at a limit.To break this limit you either have to have some kind of gamma ray experience or be bitten by a radioactive spider to become a kind of superhero window cleaner, or else you can get help (I mean employ not the phyciatric sort that ewan has).
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not kept up with all the thread but my opinion for what its worth is that you need to be at the point were your struggling maybe working late and weekends(helps if this happens in the summer months)
then when the dark nights come take some one on, dont expect to earn much more but be patient and in your spare time you should have get more work.
You may not reap the rewards at first but once you get a couple of staff it frees up your time to have more of a relaxing work schedule while your employees earn you money!!
Employees and stree can come hand in hand but i feel if i way the pros and cons i wouldnt look back.
For the record i have two vans two employees and i work about one day a week earning a little more than working my balls off all week on my own.
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At the risk of ahem appearing big headed..
As for top end kit, i do have two state of the art red ash reels that wind in electicaly and couple of slx's with specialy modified supalites on the end. Everything is designed for speed, from pulling up two brush's need to be on the glass in under twenty seconds, and upon finishing the hose needs to fly into the van.
Keep your promise to the customer and you will make money.Rememer three things, quality, volume, and value. You should pay me for these lessons ewan ;D
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and for the record i earn same as ron but still have to work hard every day.
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how do you know what i earn ;D
so the electric wheels how do they work??
might sound silly but i would be worried that the connectors would get damaged amongst other problems
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quality and volume are always different????
well what a load of tosh, we do a high volume of work to a quality standard and i think im value.
value isnt always cheaper its value ie a do a job £10 do a top job some good quality always on time amd some ome elses does it for £6 doesnt do has good a job and turns up when he wants..........to me and my customer IM VALUE BUT NOT CHEAP
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The balance is between quality volume and value.Because i have a large customer base i can keep costs down and offer better value, and the quality has to do with extras such as cleaning gutters on cons as standard.Like i said you should pay me ewan ;D
Good to see you agree ron, great minds and all that. Before the credit runch hit, but american subprime experts were talking about a financial sumnami hitting the rest of the world, ewan said it was all a media invention and we were gullible mugs for listening to such twaddle.I think he's prime minister material.
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i dont know if it going to work but ive did the culling of work and taking on better paid etc. then i approached my local council and interviewed a few young lads and got one good one. the council pay his wages while he works for me for 13 weeks then i get a grant for a further 8 weeks paying his wages in full then 1/2 his wages for another 4 weeks then 1/4 wages for a further 4 weeks and then and if i can afford it i will be responsible for his wages.
if it doesnt work out i will have to let him go but so far it going good
[/quote
is this a scheme being run nationally can you give us more info
bob]
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I've been following this thread with interest and it relates very personally to my situation because I am always bursting with work that I find hard to cover.
I have always said I would never take on a helper and I have been asked many times by lads looking for work. To me it would destroy the simple easy life associated with being a one man band.
You have to cull the bad jobs and the underpriced jobs but its really hard to do. Its easy to talk about but I keep putting it off. I must be the worlds worst.
My advice is make lists, List A = all the customers you want to put up prices and List B =all the customers to drop. Then work the lists into an order of priority. With the end of the year coming up you have a natural time to start telling your customers you will have to put their prices up on Jan 1st
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Exactly the same for me. I have some nice customers but low priced and I have some crappy ones but well priced. It's going to be hard to get rid of a lot of them.
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I have thought about employing but don't have the gumption to go for it. I could in theory have a mini empire. I have a brand name as such, plenty of work and have never really looked for work. I'm sure if I advertised properly I could expand easily especially if I really pushed the guttering/plastics cleaning side of the business. I like the simplicity of working for myself there is lots of potential out there, of that i'm sure.
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Just bought some work today off a bloke new houses, new faces, new opportunities.....love it! ;D
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This is a very funny topic, he asks those that have done it, and of those that have replied only one ronnie really has, and his comments were pretty much ignored.
Those that have replied have said more about why they haven't done it.Oh, i could have an empire if i could be bothered, but i like to keep things simple. How many people have you met who say- window cleaning, i thought about doing that, i could have been made by now. The fact is they didn't, just as none of the posters who could expand have expanded.They talk a good fight or game, but that's it, they bottle it in the real world.
It is scary, the first steps especially, and the likelyhood is you would be worse off financally to begin with as well as having extra stress.Mostly those replying have a well paid job(but not necessarily a business), and want to keep it that way.This is okay, but i find the work too hard, and would prefer someone else did it while i still get most of the money.
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This is a very funny topic, he asks those that have done it, and of those that have replied only one ronnie really has, and his comments were pretty much ignored.
Those that have replied have said more about why they haven't done it.Oh, i could have an empire if i could be bothered, but i like to keep things simple. How many people have you met who say- window cleaning, i thought about doing that, i could have been made by now. The fact is they didn't, just as none of the posters who could expand have expanded.They talk a good fight or game, but that's it, they bottle it in the real world.
It is scary, the first steps especially, and the likelyhood is you would be worse off financally to begin with as well as having extra stress.Mostly those replying have a well paid job(but not necessarily a business), and want to keep it that way.This is okay, but i find the work too hard, and would prefer someone else did it while i still get most of the money.
I have 2 employees :P
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Oh I forgot window cleaning is special, every other mass market product or service is also quality?
Value is cheaper – that’s why they call it value.
Cheaper & cheap are different; I never said anybody is cheap.
Hope this tosh helps clarifying my point. ;D
If you pay a cheap price for goods or service of sub-standard quality that is not value.
If you pay a say twice as much for goods or service of a good standard that is much better value.
Sorry Ewan but much of the time your posts make little sense IMO.
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Point one is you don't have an opinion on the topic, and point two is that yours is a slightly different business model because you are prepared to travel (sleep out?) and do out of the ordinary commercial jobs etc.
What i would say about you dean is that you are more of a natural, you go on instinct and have a pretty good aptitude. I am more of a theory person. Most of the replies show no grasp of either.
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:)
Thats fair enough slumpy
I do have one opinion though,
If you want your business to grow you really do need to employ.
Dean
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if youre not sure , then start by employing on a part - time basis and also pay them by the hour !
on rainy days or quiet days you have the option of getting them to canvass / leaflet to help your business grow and to keep them earning something , or not use them to save on wages , and of course they can help you catch up when reqd .
you will of course initially have more time off yourself than before and earned less after what you paid in wages . you might prefer the extra time off ?
or more likely you round will grow as you will have more time to manage it , build it and look after what you already have , aswell as all the new customers that you will be getting from your new way of working .
the very best of luck to you !
lloyd.
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"you" doesnt mean you personally slumpbuster :)
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Theres cheaper than the most expensive cheap one.
and cheaper than the cheapest cheap one. ;D
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employing has good and bad points, first it is very hard to get the right staff and almost impossible to get ones to do things the way you would there is also lots more paperwork involved ie training, health and safety employment law, wages, vat etc you will make more money than trying to do all work on your own but dont expect massive leaps in income because your costs escalate at a massive rate when you take into account the above costs and extra vehicles equipment and work premises, my conclusion is i can see why many choose not to employ as it isnt as easy as may first look but for others they see it as a challenge and like challenges for people like this i would say go for it.