Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sean Dyer on August 14, 2009, 09:14:45 am
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Just wondered if any of you lads got started through a franchise and how you found it??
Just before you ask, no im not, and never will as i am growing happily alone,
I know its easy to knock being a franchise as many will , but i think for someone who has a good work ethic but needs some help and a team behnd them its a good way to start, i knew a chap who drove buses 60 hrs a week, never seen his family, and hated his job, it was suggested he take a look at franchises, he bought into a company that fixed dents and scratches on cars, he never looked back he loves his job and has a good wage,
There are downsides obviously such as paying out alot of cash and having a percentage to kick up in some cases, but there is obviously something attractive about it for some??
So anyone doing it??
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If they was in a franchise then they wouldn't have started on here. Noone in their right mind would buy a w/c franchise.
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If they was in a franchise then they wouldn't have started on here. Noone in their right mind would buy a w/c franchise.
And who in there right mind would buy into a sandwich shop franchise! ::)
Oh, everyone who owns a Subway!!
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some have and do!
Just because it isnt your ideal option doesn't mean it isnt someone elses, i was asking for people who have, not people who haven't :)
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Well noone's come on and said they have yet! To embarassed I expect. ;D
Look there's a BIG difference between a sandwich chain and a w/c franchise.
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Franchise posts always bring out the "are you mad" brigade. I am not involved in a franchise but I have been involved in non window cleaning franchises in my former life and found them to be like everything in life mixed. Some good and some bad.
I would definately join a franchise for window cleaning if they could provide me with the following benifits.
1. 20% of my turnover via national accounts, doesnt have to be my most profitable work but does have to be consistant and do-able in all weathers.
2. Regular one off referals from their marketing efforts either via web sites or local advertising.
3. Professional Printed materials at low cost at least every 1/4 for publication in my local papers or for use leafleting. (distribution at my cost)
4. Discounts on consumerables negotiated with suppliers (brushes, poles, uniforms, resin etc) Discounts should at least amount to 1/3 of my fees.
5. Discounts on insurance for vehicles and el & pl
6. Free membership of trade associations.
7. Access to comprehensive health & safety templates and regular updates of same.
8. Access to accounting packages and round managing software at reduced rates.
9. Support in the form of about 4 training days a year in areas such as closing sales, tendering, safety and equipment changes.
I would see the trade off as being that I can then concentrate on doing profitable work instead of spending all my time dealing with web sites, printers, suppliers etc
Dont know if the % I would be prepared to pay would make it viable for a franchise to supply the above which is probably why there arnt too many wc franchises.
Fish window cleaning in the US seem to be going from strength to strength.
I wonder about a commercial wc franchise as opposed to domestic.
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Good post that Bluez :)
Franchises can be extremely successful in the right hands - mcdonalds, need i say more haha
But certainly window cleaning would be a much more difficult arena to run it, but like you say bluez, if such things were offered to let you save money in some areas, and just concentrate on running it , then that percentage would be worth while, also if there was a company that created a huge brand and you could buy into that, that is invaluable!
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ian lancaster who comes here sometimes has set up a franchise.
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that is correct and i think he has sold four franchises and says he is close to retiring and still earning a good living so it most defo can work for some
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www.ianlancasterwindowcleaner.co.uk
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Well noone's come on and said they have yet! To embarassed I expect. ;D
Look there's a BIG difference between a sandwich chain and a w/c franchise.
No there isn't. Both are a business, providing a service to the public, unless of course you (general not personal you) view wc'ing as only a job.
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Well noone's come on and said they have yet! To embarassed I expect. ;D
Look there's a BIG difference between a sandwich chain and a w/c franchise.
No there isn't. Both are a business, providing a service to the public, unless of course you (general not personal you) view wc'ing as only a job.
Exactly
Makes you wonder how many people in this economic climate would buy into a window cleaning franchise :)
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I have heard there are window cleaning franchises where you pay all your franshise money and get all your equipment then have to go out and get your own jobs by knocking or whatever.
I think Ian lancaster's is the best way of doing it him providing them with work from day one and that looks attractive system.
Ideal for married people with a family were they can run there own widnow cleaning franshise under ian lancaster earn from day one working hours they want thin its smashing :)
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When you buy a franchise you are buying the name, nothing else, but you may find a name like Subway is worth paying money for.
With a window cleaning franchise its harder to see what you get for your money. Most of the ones I have seen have been pretty hollow and are no more than a plan and a bit of training.
Its my impression that most of the people who take up window cleaning franchises come from a position of total ignorance having had no previous experience in the business. Probably the most likely route into franchises are through redundancy or from the payoff you get when you leave the services.
Its interesting to note that the franchise companies stay well away from trying to sell at places like Windex but instead advertise at Franchise Exhibitions and in the Franchise magazines. Its as though they are trying to attract window cleaning virgins. I could be cynical and say they are looking for mugs.
Franchising as a whole is big business and its a good business at the top end with names like McD and Subway. At the bottom end there are some very dodgy dealers around who appear to me to be selling something that is little more than a scam.
I have spoken to a man with an oven cleaning franchise when he was working at one of my customers. It was a very revealing conversation. Basically, after the initial training course you are on your own. The only reason he is scraping by is because other franchisees around him have thrown in the towel and are referring any enquiries his way.
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Best reply yet on the subject Vince G.
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Yeh wonder what happened to Paul C Smiths franchise.....is he still lurking around?
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I looked into a locksmith franchise, an oven cleaning franchise and have since looked at a windowcleaning franchise in Bristol. Concept20 is bordering on a franchise the way they push their systems.
The problem with the franchises I looked at was that all the cards are decked very heavily in the hands of the franchise company and very little for the franchisee.
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I always finf discussions on wc franchising interesting because on the face of it, it is the perfect business to franchise.
A service, repeat business, short duration work, low skill levels, fairly high demand across all regions, high visability and good potential for add ons.
But when you look into it a bit more deeply the potential turnover per man is not high enough for more the one feeding from the trough. It is my opinion that for a franchise to be succesful in window cleaning it must add value so that it can achieve a consistantly higher price in the market than the sole trader and so far no one has come up with a way to do that.
eg A sole trader in my area can turn over €1000 a week which means that after all expenses he is ahead of the national average income and probably happy enough with 6 / 700 a week.
But for a franchise to be viable it has to convince a man like the one above to do the same work but pay €10k to get started and give a slice of turnover back each week, that immeadiately sets the bar higher in terms of turnover and unless the first guy was only working 25 hours a week for his €1000 then the only way to do it is to charge a higher per hour cost or work longer hours.
An agency type scheme may be more suitable for window cleaning than franchising based on this, where existing window cleaners get referals in exchange for a price per job.
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I wish I could have put it as well as Vince G and bluez.
Bang on the money.
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I personal think window cleaning is more suited for the sole trader. When or if you are a larger window cleaning company and VAT etc comes into there really isn't a whole lot left in my opinion to start paying a franchise company a percent of profits, so I would say it will stump the growth of your business giving you an extra expense you don't need.
That is why I think so many people comment on fish window cleaning and there employees making very little money. Which becomes even worse when the sales people try to force there way into an area and undercut others, only tightening there own belts.
I once read some where on-line who was basically giving them a bad review after his own experience and someone else responded, saying "you have to work hard etc, I have a WC franchise with fish window cleaning and after four years hard work, I have now started making a profit.".
Feck that, four years without profit, it was hardly selling there positives. I would further speculate that most who may have failed with a franchise like fish window cleaning may have did a better job themselves.
People who a really serious about making a go at something should do there homework, run some figures together, you see so many new starts on here asking how much so I charge. how much do you want to earn? how much are you going to have to payout, how many customer do you think you could do? after that its just simple maths.
I think franchises like greggs etc. are very different, as they have there own recipes etc., that make selling there product easy because it has been tested in the market. Window Cleaning is a simple service that with some practice can be done quickly using professional tools, and is relatively easy to make money at if you do your homework, so why would you need a franchise. They are suppose to do something for you that would otherwise be difficult on your own.
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i would buy into a cleanitup franchise....i will pay 10 quid up front fee, then in return all i want is a say on cleanitup and maybe start kicking out some of the useless posters...like that scrimman, he never stays on topic. >:(
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Suprised Ian Lancaster has n't posted on this one
he is usually quick off the mark on franchises
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Suprised Ian Lancaster has n't posted on this one
he is usually quick off the mark on franchises
I'm afraid Ian thought I was having a go at him a couple of years ago when I really tore into a couple of posters who started saying how wonderul franchises were and how much money could be made from them.
I strongly suspected the two posters were in fact really the same person trying to use CIU promote some rubbish scheme he was wanting to foist on the gullable. So I came in strong and hard talking about sharks preying on mugs etc and rather offended Ian who wasn't my intended target. I have no doubt that Ian is fair and honest but from what I have seen not everyone is honest like Ian.
Lets face it, if you are a totally dishonest person with no scruples what so ever, setting up a dodgy francising business must seem like money for nothing. It doesn't matter what the actual business is to these people. They are just after releaving scared and worried people of their redundancy money.
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Suprised Ian Lancaster has n't posted on this one
he is usually quick off the mark on franchises
I'm afraid Ian thought I was having a go at him a couple of years ago when I really tore into a couple of posters who started saying how wonderul franchises were and how much money could be made from them.
I strongly suspected the two posters were in fact really the same person trying to use CIU promote some rubbish scheme he was wanting to foist on the gullable. So I came in strong and hard talking about sharks preying on mugs etc and rather offended Ian who wasn't my intended target. I have no doubt that Ian is fair and honest but from what I have seen not everyone is honest like Ian.
Lets face it, if you are a totally dishonest person with no scruples what so ever, setting up a dodgy francising business must seem like money for nothing. It doesn't matter what the actual business is to these people. They are just after releaving scared and worried people of their redundancy money.
I understand where you are coming from Vince there are so many horror stories about franchising out there but is it not a bit cynical, a bit paranoid even to consign a whole business approach to the scrap heap without considering the franchises that have made people money.
Surely everyone in business is in it to make money it seems a bit harsh to tar all businesses that choose franchising as their business model as dishonest and lacking scruples.
I am not saying that they arnt out there, they are, but so are dodgy window cleaners if all our customers took the approach that a few window cleaners were rip off merchants therefore all window cleaners are rip off merchants we wouldnt have any customers.
Put simply allmost every new car bought in the uk is sold by a franchise, every time you go to the local shop there is a very good chance that the shop is part of a symbol group (a francise), when you buy your petrol yea its a franchise more than likely, buy fast food, get blinds made for your house, get new tyres for your van it endless there are franchises every where not all of them are man and van franchises but somewhere in nearly every business chain there is a franchise operating and most of them are doing so purely to make money. Fortunately most people in business value an ongoing customer so play it straight.
I am not promoting franchising just open minded, maybe I havent heard enough horror stories yet.
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Its not just about horror stories though is it. You take the like of spar shops, or anything that sells products. If it is a large franchise, they buy in bulk from one wholesaler and get large discounts that shop owners cant get on there own, so is a benefit to the public and owner because of attracting more business with lower prices.
Service industries like window cleaning are very different, because lets face it, if you find it hard to make a go at window cleaning and need a franchising company to lead you by the hand, you might be better of in Tesco's.
The only thing a franchising company can offer a window cleaner that they cant get on there own easily is a well known name. But if you look professional, I doubt members of the public will be bothered that much if they haven't heard of your company before, and you can offer reference to combat this.
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Agree with a lot of that Ladder garder except the last paragraph, I am not aware of a window cleaning franchise that offers more than what you say at present but I wouldnt rule out franchising as a business model just because someone hasnt come up with a viable offering for our industry yet.
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yeah I agree with that too, If they had a huge sales team that come in, people who know what's involved and what it is actually like window cleaning and understands the problems some jobs can have, and has a set pricing system the supports the economics, as well as offering reduced equipement and vehicles because they buy in bulk then ok yes, it maybe very much viable.
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Suprised Ian Lancaster has n't posted on this one
he is usually quick off the mark on franchises
I'm afraid Ian thought I was having a go at him a couple of years ago when I really tore into a couple of posters who started saying how wonderul franchises were and how much money could be made from them.
I strongly suspected the two posters were in fact really the same person trying to use CIU promote some rubbish scheme he was wanting to foist on the gullable. So I came in strong and hard talking about sharks preying on mugs etc and rather offended Ian who wasn't my intended target. I have no doubt that Ian is fair and honest but from what I have seen not everyone is honest like Ian.
Lets face it, if you are a totally dishonest person with no scruples what so ever, setting up a dodgy francising business must seem like money for nothing. It doesn't matter what the actual business is to these people. They are just after releaving scared and worried people of their redundancy money.
Nope slumpbuster was one and I was the other, you spat your dummy out of the pram and threatened to leave the forum. Total over reaction on your part, I think you even accused Ian Lancaster of using the forum to groom "victims", this was after he had been asked to give a talk on franchising within the window cleaning industry at Windex !!!
As for coming in strong etc etc, I think you just reinforced my opinion that you are a narrow minded bigot. You didnt feel the topic should even be allowed to be discussed...on a forum.
Oh and also the topic wasnt about how fantastic it was at all, also money and the abundance of it was never mentioned.....selective memory syndrome I think.
Mark
Mark
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yep that'll kill a thread Davo, good job.
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The value of a franchise depends on the overall turnover of the business. A frachise like subway have had thousands spent on advertising to gain a household name that people recognise and see from day to day. This is a reputable business to buy a franchise off with a good strong brand name
There WONT be any strong brand names coming from window cleaning that will advertise on national tv and become an household name therefore a franchise in this business should NEVER be considered.
PS watch out for Platinum Contracts NW between the corrie adds tonight..
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What if J.V. Price decided to sell a franchise of their succesful business model to a businessman based in the south east or another region that they are not active in.
Their contacts would be hugely valuable as would their knowledge and experience of the industry. I know that this is a considerably different proposition to a domestic window cleaning franchise but would everyone be so quick to discount the possibilities when the company in question is established and reputable.
Sorry for bringing JV Price into this they have nothing to do with this discussion except that they appear to be a well known and developed business.
I would also hazard a guess that tv advertising would not be the marketing and development route of choice for a business of this type.
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on ebay lately there has been several complete van setups for sale. the story is the same, 6 months old new job forces sale.
people have invested their redundency into a van and kit but then cant get the work quick enough to pay the bills.
the only advantage i see with franchising is earning from day one.
we know how to knock and how to build a round but some want the security of earning straight away
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yep that'll kill a thread Davo, good job.
Nah its still going.....
The value of a franchise depends on the overall turnover of the business. A frachise like subway have had thousands spent on advertising to gain a household name that people recognise and see from day to day. This is a reputable business to buy a franchise off with a good strong brand name
There WONT be any strong brand names coming from window cleaning that will advertise on national tv and become an household name therefore a franchise in this business should NEVER be considered.
PS watch out for Platinum Contracts NW between the corrie adds tonight..
The value of a franchise depends on several factors, the number 1 factor is profitability......
So because the franchise hasnt got a nationally recognised name then it shouldnt be considered, does that mean even if the business offers a good return on investment and is built on a solid financial model by an ethical franchisor then its a waste of money, time and effort?.
Mark
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if there's enough work to start a franchise in your area, then there's enough work to start your own buisness without the franchise fees, simples
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Suprised Ian Lancaster has n't posted on this one
he is usually quick off the mark on franchises
I'm afraid Ian thought I was having a go at him a couple of years ago when I really tore into a couple of ters who started saying how wonderul franchises were and how much money could be made from them.
I strongly suspected the two posters were in fact really the same person trying to use CIU promote some rubbish scheme he was wanting to foist on the gullable. So I came in strong and hard talking about sharks preying on mugs etc and rather offended Ian who wasn't my intended target. I have no doubt that Ian is fair and honest but from what I have seen not everyone is honest like Ian.
Lets face it, if you are a totally dishonest person with no scruples what so ever, setting up a dodgy francising business must seem like money for nothing. It doesn't matter what the actual business is to these people. They are just after releaving scared and worried people of their redundancy money.
Nope slumpbuster was one and I was the other, you spat your dummy out of the pram and threatened to leave the forum. Total over reaction on your part, I think you even accused Ian Lancaster of using the forum to groom "victims", this was after he had been asked to give a talk on franchising within the window cleaning industry at Windex !!!
As for coming in strong etc etc, I think you just reinforced my opinion that you are a narrow minded bigot. You didnt feel the topic should even be allowed to be discussed...on a forum.
Oh and also the topic wasnt about how fantastic it was at all, also money and the abundance of it was never mentioned.....selective memory syndrome I think.
Mark
Mark
No you wern't one of the two posters who was trying to promote franchises at that time. Not with that name anyway but why do you hide behind a name. I can't even remenber The name(s) that were used because there were so many hookey names flying around.
I got into several arguements on different threads and if it starts up again I will wade in again because I am as you say a narrow minded bigot and proud to be so if it prevents crooks and conmen using this forum for their own purposes.
Please try though to put your case using reasoned arguements rather than personal attacks, they don't work on me.
Other sections of the cleaning industry have been plagued with franchising schemes that have ended in tears. If you can demonstrate a scheme that works - fine. However, until that time......
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Here's one as an example:
http://www.staycleanwindows.co.uk/wfp/franchising-3.html
Taken at random off the net because it's close to me.
So that's fifteen grand for an ro system and some basic kit. ???
No van ???
No customers ???
Bargain ???
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Exactly right ftp!
The facts speak pretty clearly for themselves. This thread has been running for quite a long time and we haven't had a single person on here saying that they took out a franchise and it was the best thing they ever did.
If franchises were so great there should be loads of happy smiling franchisees on here and there are none. What does that tell you?
There have been quite a few schemes over the years and most seem to disappear after a while, I don't try to keep track of them but when they go you can kiss your £15 grand goodbye. Its not just about the window cleaning. A lot of franchises try to make it appear that your money is safe by saying they will allow you to sell your franchise on when you want to retire in a few years time. You can't re-sell a franchise when the company has folded.
A couple of years ago there were two separate franchise vans in my area. They were leafletting and door knocking all over the place. Both have gone now. I would be really interested to know the full story but as I know one of them was quoting £30-35 for an average three bed semi I can guess they just starved to death.
Thats another dubious aspect of all sorts of franchises , they often come with a "marketing plan" that suggests that by going with them you will make a lot more money than working as an independant. Well if that marketing plan was to charge £35 a house I have to say its not much of a plan.
There was an American guy on here a few months back trying to promote some book he was selling on how to market window cleaning or something of the sort. Where is he now?, they come and they go.
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The locksmith franchise I looked at was very pricey. I forget the exact figures but it was somewhere in the region of 40k. This included training, kit, and a small van. They gave you some work to get you started, a telphone contact from their head office - the idea was that you covered a specific area and they would then send you to their jobs.
You were expected to generate most of your work. The sticking point for me was a) you took out a loan to get started b) they creamed off a percentage of all your work including your own generated work and finally they had total control over the direction your business was heading ie. if they decided fitting burgalar alarms was the way forward then that's what you had to to.
All the crap about using a branded name with their stationary and van wrap is there for one purpose only - to promote the franchise - not the franchisee!
The reason I went into this business was freedom from any boss, the simplicity of the job, low start up costs and total control.
Most franchises seem to be there to suck the life out of any gullable/desperate operative who can't think for themselves.
I'd like to see the figures of some of the so called sucesses and see just how much money is creamed off from the profits.
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Also, have you ever looked into the oven cleaning franchises?
What a joke! Haven't seen many wealthy oven cleaners round our way lately.
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I went to the Franchise Show a few years back when it was still held at Wembley. I wasn't interested in going down the franchise route but as a taxi driver I got free tickets so I went in and had a look.
There were all sorts of franchises but the worst one that caught my eye was a franchise for re-enamelling baths! Several very similar chips and dents ones for cars that looked a bit implausable too.
A lot were for things like travel agents and High Street shops that you wouldn't even realise were franchises.
The things like window cleaning, carpet cleaning, chips and dents etc were really bottom end of the market and attracted the bottom end of the market customers.
I'm told there are number of Handyman franchises springing up with names like "Odd Job Bob" which are likely to attract redundant tradesmen.
It seems to me this is another example of somebody trying to establish a franchise business merely to harvest the vunerable.
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if there's enough work to start a franchise in your area, then there's enough work to start your own buisness without the franchise fees, simples
Simple, yes but not in the way you think. Not everyone wants to take the, start from zero and build up both knowledge and turnover route in many areas not just wc.
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Suprised Ian Lancaster has n't posted on this one
he is usually quick off the mark on franchises
I'm afraid Ian thought I was having a go at him a couple of years ago when I really tore into a couple of ters who started saying how wonderul franchises were and how much money could be made from them.
I strongly suspected the two posters were in fact really the same person trying to use CIU promote some rubbish scheme he was wanting to foist on the gullable. So I came in strong and hard talking about sharks preying on mugs etc and rather offended Ian who wasn't my intended target. I have no doubt that Ian is fair and honest but from what I have seen not everyone is honest like Ian.
Lets face it, if you are a totally dishonest person with no scruples what so ever, setting up a dodgy francising business must seem like money for nothing. It doesn't matter what the actual business is to these people. They are just after releaving scared and worried people of their redundancy money.
Nope slumpbuster was one and I was the other, you spat your dummy out of the pram and threatened to leave the forum. Total over reaction on your part, I think you even accused Ian Lancaster of using the forum to groom "victims", this was after he had been asked to give a talk on franchising within the window cleaning industry at Windex !!!
As for coming in strong etc etc, I think you just reinforced my opinion that you are a narrow minded bigot. You didnt feel the topic should even be allowed to be discussed...on a forum.
Oh and also the topic wasnt about how fantastic it was at all, also money and the abundance of it was never mentioned.....selective memory syndrome I think.
Mark
Mark
No you wern't one of the two posters who was trying to promote franchises at that time. Not with that name anyway but why do you hide behind a name. I can't even remenber The name(s) that were used because there were so many hookey names flying around.
I got into several arguements on different threads and if it starts up again I will wade in again because I am as you say a narrow minded bigot and proud to be so if it prevents crooks and conmen using this forum for their own purposes.
Please try though to put your case using reasoned arguements rather than personal attacks, they don't work on me.
Other sections of the cleaning industry have been plagued with franchising schemes that have ended in tears. If you can demonstrate a scheme that works - fine. However, until that time......
Jims window cleaning(jims lawn mowingetc), , fish window cleaning try google you will find some. Also for some non wc examples try McDonalds, Topaz, Shell, HB the list is endless.
You and ftp seem happy to throw out examples of bad franchises I can do the opposite and just keep mentioning good franchises, but it doesnt really add to the discussion.
Businesses start and fail all the time franchises are not a guarantee of success but a good one should tilt the odds a bit in your favour, a bad one will surely give you no chance. That is not the fault of the business model, it is the fault of the individuals involved on both sides.
"Franchising Bad" and "franchising good" are just to simplistic an approach to the subject to be right in any way.
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if there's enough work to start a franchise in your area, then there's enough work to start your own buisness without the franchise fees, simples
Simple, yes but not in the way you think. Not everyone wants to take the, start from zero and build up both knowledge and turnover route in many areas not just wc.
Shame this is true as many of you may know that one of the most rewarding feelings in business is knowing you made all your money and success yourself from nothing....
Success is sweet but even more sweeter when you have done it all yourself
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I'm sure there are good franchises out there and Ian Lancasters is probably one of them.
The ones I picked on are simply the ones I looked at whilst facing redundancy and at the time the prospect of chucking my redundancy money at them looked like sheer stupidity including the Concept20 set up I looked at too. As it was I picked up so much work windowcleaning that I had to jump ship anyway and thus missed any redundancy payment.
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Bluez
You are right, there are some very good franchises out there among things like Hotel Chains and high street retailers where name and Branding are everything.
If you had a McDonalds people would walk into your shop every day and spend money because they know the name and know what the food will be like. Similarly when you go to another city you well might book into a Hilton Hotel because you know the name.
What I fail to see is how that relates to window cleaning. There is a world of difference between a franchise and a glorified training scheme. What I see is a training scheme not a franchise. Often the people selling the franchises don't impress me as having had a wealth of experience in window cleaning. They are self styled marketing gurus.
Window cleaning is not about branding or name its about basic manual labour and I don't see how a franchise can add value to the process for the customer or the franchisee.
Its just below the level at which brand or name counts for anything.
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I would value my brand very highly, it's not a franchise but strong branding has contributed significantly to it.
Dont misinterpret my point as being in support of any existing window cleaning franchise it is not, it is a support of franchising as a business model, I just dont think that the franchises that have been offered in this industry have been very good(vince's assesment is pretty fair).
Ians offering is a good example of someone who has the knowledge and experience to make it work, I just feel that whenever franchising is mentioned on here it gets slammed as bad.
I think that lots of franchises are really crap but not franchising as a way of doing business.