Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: user001 on August 04, 2009, 12:31:25 pm
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Hi All,
Well i have been lurking the forums for some time but now getting to the point where i am almost ready to give up the day job (around £28k a year)! but need some help!
How is the market at the moment?
I plan to go full steam, stop the day job and go canvassing 5 days a week until i pick up business. I will be using a hot water WFP system so my outgoings will be there from day 1.
I need to cover my overheads as soon as possible! (i know i prob should get a ladder out and start small but that's not my plan).
I really want to make this work and there is good money to be made. I live in the Surrey area (where the average clean is about £15/£20+)
In your experience, if i canvass 5/6 days a week, how long should it take to pick up a good amount of work?
Oh, and i use to be a salesman so canvassing isn't an issue at all!
Thanks all!
(p.s. i am fully ready not to go undercutting business, i don't want to tread on local window cleaners toes to much, after all, we're all trying to make a living).
;D
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I found it v.difficult to build a round from scratch when i started 15 years ago.most areas have got a window cleaner but u will pick odd ones up usually badpayers and awkward access unless u know a local window cleaner who is retiring unless ur lucky and stumble on a unserviced area.canvass,canvass,canvass.leaflet then go back 3 days later.maybe buy a little round.also advertise the fact u got HOT WFP.u should be able to do the big awkward houses and add on jobs that TRAD like me would pass on.also i find its the trust as well up here in manchester.its took hard work,persistence and always have a friendly smile.i pick work up off people who say they dont like the look of their other WC and he not v.friendly,not regular etc.i ended up buying a small round and worked with another WC until i had enough to go it alone.dress clean and fairly smart,do a good job and dont undercharge and u will pick u
p work.never undercut but dont go in sky high with the pricing.u can do that when u dont need the job ;D
best wishes pal.this site has been fantastic for my changed attitude to my business and even gona try WFP myself next year with new van etc
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Thanks Dazmond.
I'm trying to be realisitc but can't help thinking that i will have a sustainable income within 3 months... probably a bit hopefully but if i put in the work, is it realistic?
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isuppose it depends on ur bills every month and how much work u can pick up.most off my work is about 10 to 15 mins away in a v. upmarket area but i started local and cheapish then sold this on when i got more quality work.if ur outgoing and approachable thats always helped me.its not as easy as some make out on here and dont be put off by people saying its a recession blah blah but u wont earn 28grand in ur first year.remember drive,determination and hard work are indispensable.keep knocking and youll get there in the end.lots of good advice on here and some crap from time to time but a good mixture.i think u should learn TRAD as well for insides and the odd windows that come up bad{oxidised frames,flakey paint etc}.most of my work monthly and the odd 2monthly.GOOD LUCK
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hmmm, maybe im unrealistic... i was hoping (and informed by someone) that i should look at bringing on £1k of new business a month?
I'm moving out of the counrty in about 12-18 months and wanted to make more money before this...
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where abouts in surrey r you mate..
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Heya,
Epsom, Weybridge, Oxshot etc way.
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hmmm, maybe im unrealistic... i was hoping (and informed by someone) that i should look at bringing on £1k of new business a month?
I'm moving out of the counrty in about 12-18 months and wanted to make more money before this...
If you're looking to move away in 12/18 months and are on 28K I don't see the point in starting a new business venture. Even if you're very self-disciplined, by the time you've bought and set up your kit, got a van and canvassed like Billy Whizz I reckon you'll take at least six months to get up to 2.5K a month and be able to service it properly if you've never done w/c before.
So let's say that in those six months you've lost 14K in earnings, spent 6K setting up then that's 20K to offset against earnings. By the end of a year I reckon you'll have done extremely well to have built up and earned 20K of turnover, so you are only at zero after a years graft. It'll take another year to get to where you are already I suggest.
Why not knuckle down to your current job, cut your outgoings for a year and stash that dosh away for your move abroad?
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Hmm, you might be right with that one..
I was running through figures with concept2o and the figures they sent me were for £75k turn over taking home about £45k in first year of business. Hence my thoughts about getting into it!
I have not heard about anyone NOT hitting them figures (you would think there would be some form of bad press if this was the case) ....
??? ??? ???
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it's going to take a few years to get to those figures especially if you are alone into business.but good luck anyway you might prove us wrong.but like has been said what's the point of starting a business if you are moving abroad?and also when you want to sell the customer base only beeing one year old it's not very promising for whose buying.and it's harder this days not only because of recession but of the competition as well.i have to spend twice as much on advertising than last year and get half of the response i use to get.
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User001,
I would say Malc is about spot on there, if you were in it for the long haul I would say go for it but working on your 18 month timeline I think you'd be crazy to give up your guaranteed 28k.
You say you have worked in sales, so you'll know that some of your sales patter should be taken with a pinch of salt - Concept2o are trying to sell you a Van complete with a WFP system, they are not a social advice service!
Regards
Al
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Its very confusing! the company, who seem very nice and helpful, seem convinced that this a 1st year figure.... but not to sure.... I appreciate they want something out of it, but they haven't tried to sell me the big franchise packet..just the system and not even the van, they have advised renting the van (considering my times scales).
I would be selling it to someone i know that has a round in the same area - so he is happy as he knows i would of serviced the customers well and he knows that his round will increase..
but before i came on here, i was all ready to drop my job and start... and now, i'm not to sure.
in regards to whats the point.. simple really, my £28k, will still be £28k by end of next year... but i want to clear off debts, and i thought by doing this, i will be earning enough within a few months to put enough aside to pay off debts before we leave...
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Hmm, you might be right with that one..
I was running through figures with concept2o and the figures they sent me were for £75k turn over taking home about £45k in first year of business. Hence my thoughts about getting into it!
I have not heard about anyone NOT hitting them figures (you would think there would be some form of bad press if this was the case) ....
??? ??? ???
Ive gotta concept will do all they can to get you to buy from them, 75k I think there talking out there little back passage, after my 1st year i was minus, which i new was going to be the case but my missus is in work and we where sorted,
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thers a giraffe in this tale ??? ??? ???
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? think there spinning me one? :-[
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I was given similar figures by Concept - they all do it. They find someone who is using their kit with a long established, compact round that's earning the money.
The van earns you absolutely nothing without the round or the customers. Work won't come pouring your way just because you've got a van. For an ex salesman you are very, very naive.
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You will earn far less than most windowcleaners on here. Think about it, you are going to spend what £25,000 or more with no work whatsoever. How are you going to pay back the loan with no income? It takes years to build a business that turns over £75k and I think you'll find that's a two man team hitting those targets.
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For an ex salesman you are very, very naive.
Or very hopefull!
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Its very confusing! the company, who seem very nice and helpful
Priceless, I don't mean to be rude but he is trying to sell you a system.
If you think it is that easy, see if the salesman will give you a list of all his past customers and speak to them directly. Maybe take a couple off days off and work for someone locally to you to see if you like doing such a mundane job in all but mainly crap weather.
Please dont buy the dream, as for you it maybe a nightmare!
Good luck.
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45K :-[ @@@@ I KNEW I WAS DOING SOMETHING WRONG
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Ask the sales guy if 75k is so easy why isnt he doing it?
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spending out on a concept system with a new van and rest of the equipment your gonna need, i reckon your deffo be in minus figures by the end of your working year.
sales talk is just that - to make you buy it! If ONLY it was THAT easy.
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I started in 2005 with no overheads i owned the van and all the gear and had been cleaning for somelse so i knew what i was doing still not on 28k due to bad weather etc.....
If it was that easy every man and his dog would be at it
Remeber your comping with a guy and a bucket not 20k's worth of van and gear!
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if you are on your own you will not make 28k, sorry. then from the 28k you did not make, you have still have all your expenses, insurance and tax. is there any real point to this, as it is not a long term plan?
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i made £69 profit on my first year
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Looked into this a bit more.
The person i speak too, is a window cleaning company and does use the system (supposedly).
They gave me a case study of someone who has justed started using the system (a relative of mine!) so i got on the blower and called him.... starting from scratch, he is on £3k a month already after 3 months...
The sales people have every reason to lie... but he doesn't does he?
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Then go for it and tell us how you get on. ;D
Don't suppose you are a 'plant' by concept by any chance?
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They gave me a case study of someone who has justed started using the system (a relative of mine!) so i got on the blower and called him.... starting from scratch, he is on £3k a month already after 3 months...
User001,
If a relative of yours has started up using a system from Concept 3 months ago why oh why did you need concept to give you his case study?
You seem to have justified going ahead all by yourself, Despite the advice people have given I doubt they really care that much if you do it or not but I still stand by the fact that if you break even in the first 12 months you'll be doing very well!
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Purely as im not that close to that side of family, she told me the name of the person in my area that uses the system..
Its not so much made up my mind, i just fail to see how you can fail to turn a profit in a year if your willing to work hard and canvass hard... but thats where you guys come in!
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ar you lot sill wasting your time on this winder
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Looked into this a bit more.
The person i speak too, is a window cleaning company and does use the system (supposedly).
They gave me a case study of someone who has justed started using the system (a relative of mine!) so i got on the blower and called him.... starting from scratch, he is on £3k a month already after 3 months...
The sales people have every reason to lie... but he doesn't does he?
So a Company you ring up gives you a case study of a local person who just happens to be your relative (who you say you are not close to) yet he tells you he is on £3k a month after 3 months, just like that over the phone.
Think I'll give them a ring now....... ::)
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ask jimmy1, myself, jsmc etc, we all started just over a year ago and i can tell you your figures will not work, if its that simple why come on a forum with 100s of users a day and ask a question that no one on here will say can happen but yet a company just so happens to tell you a person in your area is earning it and happens to be your relative, lol pull the other one, do you work for concept20 and just trying to get newbies to buy your system.
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Look i do not work for them, i saw the van parked outside my cousins house and assumed he had window cleaners in, thought nothing of it. I spoke to C20 as its something i have been looking in to. Turns out it was his van, just because im not close to him, doesn't me we do not talk! or is this the northern meaning of close?
But....I think it just dawned on me...
the reason everyone is so negative to money on this forum .. is because you are not out earning it...
the fact you spend your days posting as opposed to canvassing and working sums it all up.. Thats why all the wealthy cleaners are not speaking up about the figures being realistic because they are out grafting, not starting at 10am and finishing at 2 or 3pm....
I bet if there was a poll, the majority of cleaners here would be northern, they don't seem to understand the wealth of the south, but hey thats not there fault.
I'm leaving now, the negative attitude to making money is terrible.
If you say that money can not be made, then look at YOUR work, are you working minimal hours, when was the last time you went door knocking from 8am-8pm?! If you not willing to put the graft in .. then your not going to get anywhere.[/b]
Offence isn't meant by this post, but if you do take offence to it, then its obviously touched a nerve.
laters,
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I think R W C just about put the lid on it there mate. A big coincedence with your relative, strange that you didn't hear about it when you must have told at least some family members what you intended to do. Whatever, if you really area wouldbe WCer, then good luck, but you better work with floodlights till 3am to earn big bucks like that in the first year.
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Runs for cover,I'm going to get a smacked botty now, cuz it looks like I sent him off ??? Should have posted 2 minutes earlier :(
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user 01
hi i new and thinking of taking plunge myself and i have asked many questions... i not sure of the row if u call it that but i would like to hear from you as i may need some skills how to approach and sell. hey may be u could do consulting in that field.... anyway i not taking mick.
my email. spotless.window.cleaning.service@hotmail.com
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lol if you dont want to listen to people in the trade then its a good idea to leave, dont listen to us, id love to hear from you in year when you come back and appologise that you made a total cock up, that your now minus £10,000 on the year due to buying the system, van,paying n.i ,public liability, van insurance, water bill, etc etc etc etc etc etc and that you cant now go abroad due to not having any money, I for one would not have any sympothy for you as you didnt listen but only to some sales pitch by a installer of the system, why not ask people like steve-cm, j.v.price, bluez, dave morris, if they think what you are saying will happen, go canvassing every night, then have to do the work, lose a load due to only wanting a one off clean, trust me if you break even in your 1st year then you have done really well.
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sorry to say you may be disapointed with the money you are expectong after 20 yrs yes 20 exp
i would not advise you to expect too much income in the first to 3rd year as you will be cutting your teeth and pulling out your hair as to the secret of what we oldies have but no matter how hard you try you cant get yet................................it will come but oh so slowly add to this modern pressures and you may be disapointed just look at the second hand kit for sale or you will have the chance of alifetime you decide
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User001, to be honest mate the vast majority of window cleaners don't earn £75,000, after plenty of years trading not just the one year :( :( :(.
I'm not even convinced you're for real :-\ :-\ :-\
Who in their right mind would set up a business that takes time to build with the intension of buggering off abroad the year after ??? ??? ???
I reckon most lad and lasses on here earn between maybe £20 - £30K per year, some more, some less, but I bet very few, if any, earned those figures in their first year of trading.
Sorry mate, you're either having a laugh at our expense or really are daft as a brush :P :P :P
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all this spending out....as a small guy starting i not even thinking of systems just good old elbow grease ladder blade etc....its like mobile phones what did u all do before the tech stuff came in to w...trad thats the way for me
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To earn £75k a year you would need to do about 15 places at £20 5 days a week 52 weeks of the year, no days off. When you account for weather spoiling at least a day a week and having 4 weeks holiday your looking at 20 places a day. This is without taking in account canvassing time.
Most window cleaners would be happy to turn over £28K let alone make that in profit.
Simon.
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I bet if there was a poll, the majority of cleaners here would be northern, they don't seem to understand the wealth of the south, but hey thats not there fault.
User,
I did start to right a message as to why I'm able to answer your question during the day whilst having a successful Window Cleaning Business, but got bored and deleted it - I as I'm sure everyone else on here, don't really care what you do!
Quit your poxy job, buy a Concept2o system, run it for 12 months and retire abroad a Millionaire ::)
MUG!!
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Awww,we'll have to wait till he goes back to work tomorrow for the reply as he only posts between 10am and 5:30pm
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The whole post is a wind up.
In twelve weeks from scratch the so called relative earns 3000 a month. So he would have earnt that in the last four weeks. What did he earn in the eight weeks before? When did he have time to canvass? What a load of lies.
Due respect to Concept20 but I think this has nothing to do with them. They seemed like a good company when I had interest in their system.
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Not sure if this is a wind up or not. However they do mean, hitting the right area, with the right demographic, with proven systems and marketing.You'd be surprised ftp at what can be achieved.
Of course, most people think, i can do that. And they go on to start up and create their own version which is usually a more muted success of one kind or another.It never occurs to them that they might have done better following a prescribed route.
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Slumpy twelve weeks from scratch? How many first cleans is that? How likely would the work be compact? What are the chances of all of it falling on the same day in the right area? A total newbie who's never cleaned windows before?
No chance. ::)
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Hmm, you might be right with that one..
I was running through figures with concept2o and the figures they sent me were for £75k turn over taking home about £45k in first year of business. Hence my thoughts about getting into it!
I have not heard about anyone NOT hitting them figures (you would think there would be some form of bad press if this was the case) ....
??? ??? ???
I don't take anything remotely like that and I've been W/Cing since '91. I suppose obtaining 75k may be possible in year one but it would mean you needing to pay canvassers and marketers a lot of money (not to mention other W/Cers) so most of your turnover would be expenditure. Also, you would probably need a fair bit of money behind you to start off in order to manage cashflow. If you could get to that in year one, year two would be a lot easier if you didn't want to expand any more because you would have the work and would not need to pay anyone to get more in. Actually cleaning £75k of windows in a year on your own would be a very tall order though so you would probably need some help and that can cost.
All of the above assumes perfect self discipline on your part, living and breathing work all the time and probably being seriously knackered out within 2 - 3 years - unless you get others to do a lot of the graft for you.
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I think anyone who sells a system will do their best to convince a potential buyer that WCing with their system will earn them good money in the first year. Here's a small note to explain how it worked for me. I live in Germany where the only thing to compare to UK is my squaddie custies. I started from naff all and had no idea of WCing. I went with an old mate from the army who had started milk round and a WC round on the side of that. He showed me what I could "knock out " in an hour polishing windows. Cut it short, off I went, canvassing and learning, I even employed some old hand, that had been cleaning for about a thousand years and he could clean faster than most, with his eyes closed and standing upside down on a ladder.
He tought me loads of stuff about this game.Whatever, I had no competition at all in 6 different areas, all with at least 400 potential custies each, I was a Brit, providing a service for Brits. A little bit of home from home if you like. So I printed my own leaflets on a C 64 PC (remember those?) and the return was about 60 %. In my first couple of months I banged on and had a turnover of about 1500 quid a month. Low costs too. Ladders bucket etc etc, diesel, dogs danglies I thought.
years later, a turnover of about 70,000 because I had gone into cmmercial work, big printing works, massive hospital in a place called Minden, half an hour away from where I lived. Already employing at least 4 guys part time, I thought I had arrived. Then I looked at the stress and hours that I put in, my marriage went down hill as I was only interested in my business. the rest is history.The point I'm trying to make is this, if WFP had been around in 89 to 93 over here, I would have earned alot more. No way would it have been 75K though, even today, with WFP, everyone has competition and prices being pushed lower all the time. Whoever told the guy he could turnover 75K in his first year, needs a smack.
I now only work 3 to 5 hours a day, with my wife. Yes I do appear lazy, but life is too short for some of us to spend chasing Dragons Den. good luck to any people with ambition, but try not to ram it down everyones neck.
75K is a sales pitch from Concept I suspect.
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A fool and their money are easily parted because greed always wins. Knowledge comes in two forms, from wisdom and from experience. How you choose to make your decision is up to you. Good luck, you'll need it. I wish you well.
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And good luck to you too window washed because you'll never know.
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And good luck to you too window washed because you'll never know.
Personally I'm not really bothered. I've tried the employers route. Been there, done it. Had to quit work a few years back for health reasons. I'm happy where I am now (self employed), concentrating on commercial work, doing just enough to pay the bills, putting aside for a rainy day account and working part time appreciating quality social time with friends and family.
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User001
I am from Glasgow so what do I know about your wealth and money but I will give you my input anyway.
If you had an employee and yourself working packed WFP rounds from day dot you could make a 75K turnover, and if you paid the employee say 20k add expenses you might be left with something in the region of 45k profit pre tax etc.
Now I am trad so I really cant say much for sure on a WFP'r expenses, but yeah I think it could be done, in the first year next to no chance, but after a good few years at it yeah.
Infact the only way I could see someone walking into window cleaning and taking that in the first year is, if the had a stack of cash, bought two full rounds off someone else, two vans full kit etc and hacked away at all year.
I imagine if you are not a plant, that you have had some crazy idea about earning another 17k this year to afford your long holiday, and are now throwing the rattle out of the pram because your are being told your naive and ideas are unrealistic.
Well some times the truth is hard to hear and you are not going to like it mate but it your choice whether you choose to listen or not. Avoid a mistake by listening to the experienced or take your chance to prove us wrong and you may learn the hard way and make your own mistakes, which I think is likely going from what I have read so far.
Do your homework mate big time before you stake your livelihood on something, if I were you go onto windowcleaning rounds forsale and look at the average round values of WFP users, and how many years it has taken them to build it, and take a good long long hard think, long and hard.
Oh and by the way, allot of the round Scotland or England aren't as far apart as you seem to think.
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If you build up a window cleaning business up to £75k in your first year make sure you have a good divorce lawyer, a funeral plan when you kick the bucket, life insurance and dont forget that if you have kids that the CSA will screw you over on that wage !
Good luck and keep us posted regularly..... sorry - your going to be knocking 24/7 so no more net time :)
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don't do it mate, marriage is the first step to divorce.
oh sorry but when you said your thinking of taking the plunge I kinda read between the lines ;D
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ok ok, I’m surprised.. I was adamant that I was not coming back to the forum after yesterdays post (rattles out of pram.. maybe). But I couldn’t resist looking at the comments – and actually surprised by the reasoned responses!
Anyway.. had a long chat with the c20 people… turns out the figures sent to me were based on a franchise package (what relative is doing) and is supposed proven method based on 1 employee at 12k a year for canvassing, driving and rolling system out and they even got details of other w/cleaners using the system.
Anywhoo… I was not looking at the franchise, just buying the gear (this is on finance so it wouldn’t be 9k in 1st year and renting a van at vivaro at £75 a week and working on my own. And they have told me that they can not say that 75k would definitely happen as that method has been proven with that package and not someone just taking the system (I did ask them about that, but they are not offering anymore in this area).
However, they seem to think that £45k would be more realistic in the first year… now I know what you guys are saying.. but if your cut from the right stuff, then why can’t you aim high and achieve?
There was a guy on Dragons den, turned over 6k a month in his first 6 months as a window cleaner - so it can be done. (or have i read that wrong!)
In regards to my area im looking at, the houses average 8,000-10,000 square foot in size (which is HUGE) ..
Anyway, you guys, despite my rants, have grounded me slightly, so i do actually appreciate that... and i am taking your points on board... but i like to argue and reason this out - after all, its a life changing decision (either good or for the worse) so i'm trying to cover all angles.
Anyway, im not saying sorry for my post yesterday but i probably could of worded it better and the comments about the north/south divide were not needed. :-*
(by the way, its 9:58am... so that blows your comment right out the water ;) )
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Stay off my patch ;D
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one thing its nice to think you will get the really big houses but it ain't guarntee you would be better off looking right across the board for all the leasing options and most probably look to buying a well established round instant money to give time to build the business to level you want and money to pay your bills while building the business up
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ok ok, I’m surprised.. I was adamant that I was not coming back to the forum after yesterdays post (rattles out of pram.. maybe). But I couldn’t resist looking at the comments – and actually surprised by the reasoned responses!
Anyway.. had a long chat with the c20 people… turns out the figures sent to me were based on a franchise package (what relative is doing) and is supposed proven method based on 1 employee at 12k a year for canvassing, driving and rolling system out and they even got details of other w/cleaners using the system.
Anywhoo… I was not looking at the franchise, just buying the gear (this is on finance so it wouldn’t be 9k in 1st year and renting a van at vivaro at £75 a week and working on my own. And they have told me that they can not say that 75k would definitely happen as that method has been proven with that package and not someone just taking the system (I did ask them about that, but they are not offering anymore in this area).
However, they seem to think that £45k would be more realistic in the first year… now I know what you guys are saying.. but if your cut from the right stuff, then why can’t you aim high and achieve?
There was a guy on Dragons den, turned over 6k a month in his first 6 months as a window cleaner - so it can be done. (or have i read that wrong!)
In regards to my area im looking at, the houses average 8,000-10,000 square foot in size (which is HUGE) ..
Anyway, you guys, despite my rants, have grounded me slightly, so i do actually appreciate that... and i am taking your points on board... but i like to argue and reason this out - after all, its a life changing decision (either good or for the worse) so i'm trying to cover all angles.
Anyway, im not saying sorry for my post yesterday but i probably could of worded it better and the comments about the north/south divide were not needed. :-*
(by the way, its 9:58am... so that blows your comment right out the water ;) )
I suppose that you can build fast but in order to do so, you need to spend a lot on canvassing/marketing/advertising. So building fast squeezes profit margin. If you build more slowly and do all or most of the work yourself (at first anyway), you will get a lower turnover but a higher profit margin.
Building fast is more appropriate for someone with capital already behind them and/or someone who can live on a very tight budget OR someone who is prepared to go into debt initially (if the banks permit) and can cope with all the stress that this can bring.
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If you was to say you wanted to build a business to eaen 75k a year to sell it in 4-5 years time then your achievements will be realistice but probs not as a 1 man band, and probs not on a domesic round only, you need to canvass real hard and probs not on your own, youd then need to do all the 1st cleans on these propertys which can sometimes take upto 3 times as long compared to a regular custy, so 6 months down the line youve got a jugling act as youll be doing your regular custys, plus new 1st cleans youve just canvassed then go out in the evening to canvass for more work, this work is very unlikely to be compact work so lots ofs traveling to take into concideraton, it really does take time to build a good round, youll get some absoultely rubbish jobs that proberly havent got a wc due to bad payers, bad access, bad frames, not today thank you custys etc etc etc, now when I leaflets drop or canvass I proberly miss out half the roads and houses now that I would of canvassed in the past, also you wont be as quick or expierenced as most of the guys on here as its not as simple as spraying water on windows, when I 1st started I made loads of mistakes that could of saved me lots of money, also why go for a big flashy van with a expensive sytem when at the end of it when you come to sell the peson buying will probs only want the round and not the system and van, when I started I had £10,000 which I bought a van, system, poles, etc, in my 1st year I didnt break even once you take off all my, fuel, van service, mot, new clutch, tax, public liability, water charges, phone bill, new poles, brushes, filters, resin, ni, bank charges, wcp, advertising in mags/ leaflets etc, sign writting, ladders, trad tools, the list goes on and on, once your past your 1st year most of these things wont be rebought etc as youll be getting recommended so to do it in your 1st year to me is a no no.
Your seem quite clued up and willing to listen by what ive read and im sure youll make the right decision,
Well any way im off to drop daughter to club then off to work,as these school holidays cause shorter days for those of us with kids so were not lazy just have other commitments too.
Chris
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On the assumption this isn't a wind up!
What figures were Concept quoting you for their system?
Do you know the cost of their full package?
What hot water system do they use in their vans?
I'm not interested in their service, but would like to know the figures.