Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Moderator David@stives on July 21, 2009, 09:54:02 am
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Following recent conversations with the FWC and an article in window Talk. It seems the FWC do not consider climbing over balconies as good practice and have advised that It shouldnt be done.
Have a look at this clip and tell me what you think, also please vote.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiWgxfLPJOo
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Its because of people like that that draws unwanted ott attention from health and safety. He's obviously a bit stupid or something.
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Shocking to watch but i used to do exactly the same
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Doesn't matter about his cleaning technique. You can't clean a balcony like that. It's just stupid. And I would have no sympathy if he fell. All he had to do was shift the ladder over for each pane. It will just give the pro wfp'ers more ammo. And I have been wfp for 9 weeks now after 17 years trad before someone starts banging on about ladders not being safe.
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Forgrtting about him cleaning the outside glass, what about actually climbing over
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I have to climb over a few balconies on some of the larger houses. I have no probs with that, I admit, I used to do stupid risky rubbish like that guy when I first started. There is a bit of a macho culture over here in the trade. Had my ladder slip away from under me because I set it too far away from a building. That stopped me acting like a prat.
I recon there is enough risk in this game without hero macho types like him.
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I do climb over some balconies either because I can't get my pole through the railings at a good angle or they are solid. It is a bit dodgy actually getting over I think. If the ladder protudes over too much I find it worse. And getting back on is difficult no matter how much it protudes. You have to be careful the ladder doesn't slide laterally I find.
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That is really bad,all i can say is he must not have any care in the world for his safety :-\
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Total disregard for his safety and the safety of others below, just to save a few minutes to maximise profit. Idiotic and stupid. Just gives him a reputation for being a foolish and dangerous wc.
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I cant understand why he couldnt clean the outside glass from the safe side of the balcony ie just bend over a little, it would be far safer than hanging on the rail on the outside
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I do have certain jobs that I need to get the ladder from the van for; climbing on to a flat roof or climbing over a balcony to get to windows or french doors behind.
I wouldn't however walk along the balcony to clean the outside; I'd use my wfp.
To be honest though, when I was MUCH younger I'd take chances that I'd slate someone for now I'm a 40 year old pensioner. I guess we all grow up and become wise ;)
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When I first started, I was taught to use methods like this as standard acceptable practice.
All the window cleaning firms did it the same way, it was priced as low as possible so if they didn't they just didn't get the work. I'm not saying for one moment that the old methods were preferable but everything has to be considered on its merits.
In the five years or so that I worked in London I only ever heard of one fatal fall, and that was a brash youngster who wouldn't listen.
Consider that this man has a good solid hand hold on the balcony rail, and that he has more than ample space for his feet, is he in any more danger than he would be standing on a ladder?
Don't just look and think "OMG what a stupid thing to do" think about what I've said above.
It's easy to jump to conclusion without thinking about it. Regardless of how dangerous it looks, you - I - or anybody with experience and training could traverse balconies like this all day long without falling. What makes it look more dangerous is that there is nothing underneath him, if he were on a ladder then there would be the ladder under him, but if he slipped off the ladder, that wouldn't make any difference - he would still fall.
Having said that, this chap seems to have a death wish the way he swings both feet at once and relies on getting a proper foothold every time. If he moved one foot at a time (as you would on a ladder) then he fulfills the requirement of "three points of contact" as ladder good practice dictates.
What I'm leading up to is my objection to blanket statements such as "climbing a ladder to access a balcony is dangerous and shouldn't be done".
That, in my opinion, is as bad as the H&S's belief that proper window cleaners ladders (which were devised specifically for the job by people who knew what they were doing) are unsafe and shouldn't be used.
If a ladder can be set safely in a way that prevents it from slipping, and extended beyond the point of contact to provide safe handhold there is no reason whatsoever why a trained and competent person should not use it to gain access onto a balcony.
And there's the critical point: I am firmly convinced that H&S approach ladder safety from the layman's reaction: "B.... H.... - that looks dangerous" and immediately set about proving that their first impressions must be right.
The consequence of that is that all ladder training is geared to preventing what they perceive to be the obvious hazards, and in doing so succeed in outlawing perfectly sensible and safe practises simply because they "seem" to be dangerous.
Ask any first time ladder user if they feel safe at the top of the ladder. The inevitable response "no".
Does that mean that no-one is safe up a ladder?
I'm all for safe practice. I don't want an accident any more than the next man, but I reserve the right to apply my years of experience and put my trust in my own expertise and common sense and not blindly follow the directives of a department more concerned with box ticking than real practicalities.
And in case you're wondering, I voted "not acceptable"
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No excuses for that. In the modern day it's totally unnecessary and unacceptable. Wfp great, no problem. And even on a ladder directly below each pane if you fall you may have a chance to grab something. But if he just makes one slight mistake he's paralysed or dead. There can be no justification for him doing that. No matter what.
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I wouldn't do what he's doing though I have to admit that there is one balcony that I climb over.
However, it is very different from the one in the video. Firstly, it's not as high. Secondly, it is wood only and there is plenty of room to fit the ladder styles between the vertical rail supports. This prevents the ladder slipping sideways. Also, the ladder is sited on grass so I always dig in a bit. That ensures that the ladder is going nowhere. The balcony railing is not so high from the balcony base either. It is a very easy climb with plenty of reliable handholds. So, it can be OK under certain conditions IMO. In fact, I have another part of that job where I need to climb onto a flat roof. IMO, the balcony climb is the safer of the two.
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I climb over them to do windows but those 1`s i would have poled.
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If we are honest, most of us would of taken silly chances like that when we were younger, but I know I am 40 years old now and I wouldn't do that. I have grown up but the wife stills says I still act like a kid
Darren
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Im young (17) but i wouldn't shimmy along the outside of that or any balcony.
I would climb up and over otherwise i would have to ensure that i can get through the property to get to the windows which would be a pain.
Started with WFP and still not gone up a ladder to the height of first floor. lol
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But you'll probably live longer than that guy.
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i climb over a few balconys but the ladder is always above the top rail and against the wall or upright to stop slide,as i got older and struggled getting my leg over (wait for the jokes ;D) i now take a small pair of steps up to place on the other side,wish i had done this years ago and saved all the ball rolling
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That, in my opinion, is as bad as the H&S's belief that proper window cleaners ladders (which were devised specifically for the job by people who knew what they were doing) are unsafe and shouldn't be used.
Ian,
I think you might be wrong on this. About a year ago the HSE made a point in the national newspapers that they were happy with ladders being used provided they were justified by a risk assessment. They said they were 'being banned' by over-zealous Company H & S departments - or was that the point you were making? ???
With wfp there is a safer way to clean the balconies but, like you, a wouldn't criticise the person involved. After all, if it was that reckless scaffolding would never be erected!!! Scaffolding has always been viewed as the most dangerous aspect of construction & involves far more risk than what the chap in the video is exposed to.
Regards,
Dave
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Ian is on about the pointed window cleaning ladders
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i did the nvq recently and they showed us a article of what the HSE thought was good practise to clean windows and they said they didnt feel using ladders were.
I may be slighty wrong in what im saying but it was there or there abouts!
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i wonder how many people who come up with this h&s stuff have cleaned windows for a living,its like me going into a shipyard and telling them how to build ships
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When I first started, I was taught to use methods like this as standard acceptable practice.
All the window cleaning firms did it the same way, it was priced as low as possible so if they didn't they just didn't get the work. I'm not saying for one moment that the old methods were preferable but everything has to be considered on its merits.
In the five years or so that I worked in London I only ever heard of one fatal fall, and that was a brash youngster who wouldn't listen.
Consider that this man has a good solid hand hold on the balcony rail, and that he has more than ample space for his feet, is he in any more danger than he would be standing on a ladder?
Don't just look and think "OMG what a stupid thing to do" think about what I've said above.
It's easy to jump to conclusion without thinking about it. Regardless of how dangerous it looks, you - I - or anybody with experience and training could traverse balconies like this all day long without falling. What makes it look more dangerous is that there is nothing underneath him, if he were on a ladder then there would be the ladder under him, but if he slipped off the ladder, that wouldn't make any difference - he would still fall.
Having said that, this chap seems to have a death wish the way he swings both feet at once and relies on getting a proper foothold every time. If he moved one foot at a time (as you would on a ladder) then he fulfills the requirement of "three points of contact" as ladder good practice dictates.
What I'm leading up to is my objection to blanket statements such as "climbing a ladder to access a balcony is dangerous and shouldn't be done".
That, in my opinion, is as bad as the H&S's belief that proper window cleaners ladders (which were devised specifically for the job by people who knew what they were doing) are unsafe and shouldn't be used.
If a ladder can be set safely in a way that prevents it from slipping, and extended beyond the point of contact to provide safe handhold there is no reason whatsoever why a trained and competent person should not use it to gain access onto a balcony.
And there's the critical point: I am firmly convinced that H&S approach ladder safety from the layman's reaction: "B.... H.... - that looks dangerous" and immediately set about proving that their first impressions must be right.
The consequence of that is that all ladder training is geared to preventing what they perceive to be the obvious hazards, and in doing so succeed in outlawing perfectly sensible and safe practises simply because they "seem" to be dangerous.
Ask any first time ladder user if they feel safe at the top of the ladder. The inevitable response "no".
Does that mean that no-one is safe up a ladder?
I'm all for safe practice. I don't want an accident any more than the next man, but I reserve the right to apply my years of experience and put my trust in my own expertise and common sense and not blindly follow the directives of a department more concerned with box ticking than real practicalities.
And in case you're wondering, I voted "not acceptable"
100% agree, when i started it was common practice to walk on ledges etc to clean windows in fact it was my dad who taught me how to do it so either he didnt like me much or he knew that as stated above if there where good hand holds and ledges where solid then it was as safe if not safer than using a ladder, would i still do it now then the answer is no but only because the health and safety tell me that i cant and not because i think its unsafe.
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As said, I would do the outside WFP.
Getting on and off the balcony is a different matter, there is a safer way to do it and that guy isn't using it.
1] use a ladder with stabiliseri fitted.
2] Place the ladder so that it just protrudes above the top rail and make sure the top of the ladder goes behind the left hand down pillar
] take a small pair of steps[ I use a milk crate] up and place it on the floor, step over the balcony rail onto the steps or crate. [cock your right leg over and the ladder can only press up against the down pilar].
Getting off, you stand on the steps, cock your left leg over, again the ladder can't move sideways because the pillar is s stopping it.
I use this method all the time and it has proven to be quite safe.
The problem is at my age I am finding it harder to get my leg over.
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However small the risk (and personally I don't think its small at all), if that risk can be removed it should be removed. Its only common sense.
Personally I think that kind of work practice is sheer madness though.
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I've seen worse, a lot worse.
But from a commercial point of view, I could have poled that glass in half the time he spent faffing about getting his ladder set up, climbing up there etc.
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The bloke obviously feels safe and personally it doesn't look too dangerous to me. In some jobs you just have to do it the best way possible.
TBH after 20 years of bill posting around London with my gang often with triple 18 foot ladders out and working alone (with never an accident) most window cleaning jobs look incredibly easy. ;)
WFP has made a lot of people into old women IMO.
Driving to the jobs is more dangerous than when you get there, H&S should ban vans. ;D
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but i notice bill posters always fix their ladders to special eyes that are below the billboards .
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but i notice bill posters always fix their ladders to special eyes that are below the billboards .
They do now, in the last couple of years a H&S directive doubled the time it took to post a board >:( strapping and unstrapping to the fixed eyes and had to be used even on a ground level job (10ft high in total)
Ludicrous as we always had ladder stays at the top of the board to prevent lateral movement of the ladder.
That's when I retired from bill posting. ;)
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I wouldn't even consider climbing over a balcony. It's either through the property or not at all.
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was it good money,the bill posting? theres a couple of bilboards near my home so i see them up n down the ladders often. other day i saw a man scraping and painting the frame round the billboard ,he looked in a hurry too
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Thats nothing check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2TJ3tU8mbo
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Thats nothing check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2TJ3tU8mbo
I don`t think he`s cleaning windows ;D
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If you were this guys employer you would be in deep trouble if anything happened to him and you could not prove that he had been adequately instructed and trained in his task and that suitable equipment had been provided.
Whatever about the personal risk to him the financial risk to the employer is enormous. For employer read business owner, building contractor, house owner.
If I had an accident there I would include all three in my liability case.
A risk assesment on this job would probably have shown that it could be done from the balcony safely, or from a ladder. Worst case scenario he wears a harness attached to the rail while leaning over.
The issue I have with this video is that the risks taken are entirely unnecessary. He wasn't saving money, or time or even improving his work quality by doing it this way.
He could have done this in a safer way. It is idiots like this that will have us all ruined by over zealous health and safety desk jockeys.
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I've done far worse than that - when I used to deliver Milk Tray.
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I've done far worse than that - when I used to deliver Milk Tray.
best reply in a long time!!
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I know 2 people that have fallen, not from a ladder but when the ladder has blown over and they have been stuck, 1 on a porch roof and the other on a balcony. Both jumped to the floor, both broke their ankles, one has since had his ankle fused as arthritis was setting in.
May seem safe but once you have moved away from your ladder, who knows what will happen to the ladder. I remember once climbing on a garage roof and the customer then moving the ladder so he could get to the garage, not giving any thought to me.
Simon.
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I've done far worse than that - when I used to deliver Milk Tray.
;D ;D
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Most accidents occour when getting on or off a ladder onto a balcony or a fflat roof. Its that point in time when you have to lean across and commit your weight to the ladder but you are too far to go back.
If the ladders going to go, thats when it will happen. I'm sure all of us have felt a ladder move when doing this at some time or another.
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Most accidents occour when getting on or off a ladder onto a balcony or a fflat roof. Its that point in time when you have to lean across and commit your weight to the ladder but you are too far to go back.
If the ladders going to go, thats when it will happen. I'm sure all of us have felt a ladder move when doing this at some time or another.
Quite true Vince, I would never attempt to get off a balcony if the ladder was only resting on a varnished top rail.
For balconies without roof support pillars I place the ladder on the house wall, leaving enough space to keep my shoulder clear of the balcony when I go up, and I make sure that the ladder is at least 4 rungs above the highest part of the balcony top rail.
Fortunately, most baconies have convenient chairs to step onto, but beware, those folding type chairs can snap like a carrot.
Getting off the balcony onto the ladder is the biggest risk area, that's why it's assential to stand on something to raise your height when stepping off, even then you need to hold onto the ladder with one hand and the balcony with the other to prevent the ladder moving away.
Only let go of the balcony when all your weight has been safely transferred to the ladder.
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I have one job where I have to climb over a balcony. I always tie the ladder off to the rail.
I don't think the way the guy does it in the video is acceptable today, but I tend to agree with the posters who think that it may be no more dangerous than using a ladder.
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Should have used a wfp. It only takes one second to slip and fall.
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Should have used a wfp. It only takes one second to slip and fall.
So how do you WFP the other side of the glass ???
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Should have used a wfp. It only takes one second to slip and fall.
So how do you WFP the other side of the glass ???
By coming thru the inside of each balcony.
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Should have used a wfp. It only takes one second to slip and fall.
So how do you WFP the other side of the glass ???
By coming thru the inside of each balcony.
What if the top custy is not in? Why is he using a ladder?
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Should have used a wfp. It only takes one second to slip and fall.
So how do you WFP the other side of the glass ???
By coming thru the inside of each balcony.
He's using a ladder no doubt because he thinks it's faster than going inside. I would make sure I had made the proper arrangements for access. I would never climb over a railing just to make a couple bucks. It's not worth my health or life.
What if the top custy is not in? Why is he using a ladder?
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I think I've misunderstood your earlier post mistersqueegee. You meant, go into the flat, when the custy is home and WFP the inside of the balcony glass ?
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I think I've misunderstood your earlier post mistersqueegee. You meant, go into the flat, when the custy is home and WFP the inside of the balcony glass ?
Yes, but if I was doing the whole building I'd make sure the building owner had made arrangements for access. I'd probably use trad methods when going doing the interior side of the balcony.
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I think I've misunderstood your earlier post mistersqueegee. You meant, go into the flat, when the custy is home and WFP the inside of the balcony glass ?
Yes, but if I was doing the whole building I'd make sure the building owner had made arrangements for access. I'd probably use trad methods when going doing the interior side of the balcony.
probably?
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I think I've misunderstood your earlier post mistersqueegee. You meant, go into the flat, when the custy is home and WFP the inside of the balcony glass ?
Yes, but if I was doing the whole building I'd make sure the building owner had made arrangements for access. I'd probably use trad methods when going doing the interior side of the balcony.
probably? [/qoute]
If the balcony drained away from the doors as they are supposed to I might go w/ a short wfp and backpack.
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I think I've misunderstood your earlier post mistersqueegee. You meant, go into the flat, when the custy is home and WFP the inside of the balcony glass ?
Yes, but if I was doing the whole building I'd make sure the building owner had made arrangements for access. I'd probably use trad methods when going doing the interior side of the balcony.
probably? [/qoute]
If the balcony drained away from the doors as they are supposed to I might go w/ a short wfp and backpack.
Sorry buddy, just noticed you are in USA. Do you do much trad work there, or is WFP widespread?
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WFP is really beginning to take hold. I use it as often as is possible. Of Course we do a lot of insides as well so we have to trad those. Either that or turn the house into a waterpark. ;D
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I always use WFP on the insides, very quick but you don't get any repeat business.
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was it good money,the bill posting? theres a couple of bilboards near my home so i see them up n down the ladders often. other day i saw a man scraping and painting the frame round the billboard ,he looked in a hurry too
Yes there was loads of money in it the past.
I was self employed and used to earn £60 an hour and work a four hour day ten years ago. I did it for over twenty years.
Never any accidents amongst any of us but when H&S stuck their beaks in and effectively made people work double the time for the same money was when I retired.
Been window cleaning with my son for last few years.