Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ben Lugg on July 11, 2009, 02:50:04 pm
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Did a job on Thursday afternoon, HSL wool mix possible 80/20 fairly light blue. Highlighted to customer on certain faded areas and possible pile reversal on walkways. Down 6 years and never been professionaly cleaned.
Hoovered well Used Multi pro pre spray and agitated in then rinsed thoroughly with ff rinse.
When finished customer paid and was very happy with the job.
Lunchtime today she rang up and is not at all happy with her carpets.Says they are patchy allover. I went over straight away to have a look. All i could make out was the same fading and pile reversal as before but slightly more highlited. She also said it looked like the colour had come out slightly.
The waste water was the usual murky brown colour due to the dirt in the carpet.
I told the customer that the carpet had had a professional clean using industry standard methods and safe chemicals from prochem and that the clean had highlighted the faded areas and pile reversal.
I have offered her a full refund but she is hinting on claiming for a new carpet . I am fully insured but can see no possible fault on my part.
Any thoughts.
Ben :(
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It may be uv damage, blue is the worst colour for fading in this way, you wont have seen the extent of damage until all the soiling has been removed.Mark
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Don't give her any money back, for a start!
If a customer makes a complaint like this, they must offer you a chance to rectify the problem before they take any further action.
I'm sorry but I don't know you so I don't know your skill level/experience, how much experience in carpet cleaning do you have?
If you're confident you've cleaned it to the best of your ability and it's pile reversal that's causing the problem, you really don't have anything to worry about. Like you say it's not your fault and you pointed this out beforehand too.
An easy way to demonstrate this is to get her to stand and look down the hall in one direction and note light/dark patch, then look at it from 180 degrees and the light bits will now be dark bits and vice-versa.
Print off the attached page from the CRI and give it to her.
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Hi Ben,
Are you a Member of N.C.C.A.?
There is a ability to call in an Independent Member to look at areas and judge the situation. This is one of those situations where membership of a Trade Body really helps!
The other alternative is to contact someone local through clean it up, who may be able to view for you!
Regards
Gary
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I am afraid i think you have made a mistake by offering her a refund although i dont know the full story as obviously we are only reading text. Did you do a pre clean survey and inspection to point out in writing the current condition before clean condition of the carpet.
At the end of the day in my opinion we are cleaners we do not lay new carpet and always make it clear to prospective customers i like to under promise and attempt to over deliver.
if it is uv damage or crushed pile thats there problem not yours and as long as you have not said you can rectify this you are not to blame
email me and will send you a copy of my pre inspection survey form.
regards
richard
richa
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In the future I would use woolsafe cleaning agents, multi pro not been one ,although I doubt it has any relevance to the complaint.
Mike
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Highlighted to customer on certain faded areas and possible pile reversal on walkways. Down 6 years and never been professionaly cleaned.
I had the same thing happen to me about a year ago.
The old guy called me back saying that the carpet was dirtier than before I did it :o Yeh right. I knew what I was going to see and sure enough it was pile reversal.
Even though I showed him what was happening by using a carpet rake he was having none of it and with him telling me to 'f' off here and 'f' off there we left on not too good a relationship. ;D
I had warned him when I surveyed the property about the potential for this to show up, given that there was evidence in several places. Of course once you take the dirt off it shows up even more because the light reflects better off clean carpet.
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My own carpets have pile reversal and we noticed it as soon as we moved in and the carpets were just put in. I come accross this quite a lot and always explain to the customer what it is! Like most people, I think you shouldn't have offered a refund, but that's not exactly helpful to you right now. You have more or less admitted fault even though I'd put good money on the fact that it's not your fault at all.
We all get a**eholes for customers who try it on and it's quite a knock back when we do get the rare complaint, but it sounds to me if all they really want is a new carpet at your expense!
I've had a customer complain about their carpet fading, by the South Facing window in their Cornish bungalow ::) It takes all kinds mate!
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by offering her a refund your basically admitting liabilty to the faults even though they were there in the first place.
you should of stood your ground and backed up what u initially told her before the job.
derek
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Ben, if you offer a money back guarantee for customers that are not satisfied with the results, then obviously a refund is in order, even if there is nothing wrong with the carpet. This has nothing to do with you accepting liability, there is always going to be one customer who dislikes the job for whatever reason, even if it is just in their minds.
Personally I would have offered to clean it again first, this shows the customer that you are only too willing to take care of their concerns, while at the same time letting them know that this is not a fault with your cleaning.
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Ben
This is the second post from you in quick succession where you have ended up refunding/doing the job for nothing.
Are you just being unlucky or is it part of your price/guarantee promise?
Perhaps you need some training/role play exercises in how to deal with difficult clients. (Perhaps that's something that could be looked at a a future training/ccdo day?)
By the sounds of your description you have done everything by the book so what prompts the customers to complain?
It's easy for the rest of us to tell you not to refund and probably that is the right thing. Having said that, if you're not desperate for the income then there is a lot to be said for refunding the job and moving on and at the same time putting behind you the worry and not brooding on it. Certainly there has been the odd occasion when it's been easier to refund and go and earn lots more dosh from a new job rather than wasting time re-dooing a job just to protect a little income.IN reality you really don't want to be there doing it in any case, as for certain that client will never use you again, so re-dooing the job can't be called an investment in the client (and future referrals.)
Roger
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Ben
Firstly, don't worry about her threat of making a claim for a new carpet.
Pile reversal is a phenomenem that has never been fully explained, although there have been various theories, from water tables to magnetic fields, plus carpet manufacturers have long since washed their hands of accepting claims for faulty carpets suffering from this condition.
However, if you offer a money-back guarantee, as I do, then sooner or later it is gonna bite you on the bum. As Roger said, she is not going to use you again and offering to re-clean it is not going to rectify the problem, if indeed it is pile reversal.
Give her the money back, as you have already offered it - wrongly in my opinion - and get on with running your business. Let her try and claim for a new carpet off her own insurance, because she hasn't got a leg to stand on trying to claim from yours.
Steve
PS: Multi-Pro is OTT for a wool carpet unless it was trashed - perhaps you should consider a different pre-spray for this type of carpet. One size does not fit all.
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Invent an excuse to re visit her as soon as you possibly can and take plenty of photo's of the carpet.
This will not only give you some proof of the state of the carpet now but will also make her think a little more before attempting to claim off you for renewal. Cover yourself , she will most likely cool down & let it go.
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also if they have paid you it is an admission of satisfaction
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Probably, but a damp carpet may look clean at the completion stage and appear patchier when dry.
As some forum members have pointed out, a thorough and recorded pre-inspection, with mention of common carpet conditions, is an important starting point. This should lessen the chance of the odd frivolous claim, but like with other trades, some people do try it on. You'll notice that these people are often inconsistent in the way they handle their complaint.
Pete (JS2)
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Firstly, Thank you for all your responses, especially as it is the weekend and you are busy doing other things. ;)
The responses are all helpful and I feel reassured by them too.
I've been in the industry for 12 months, I've had training with prochem, and of course I'm still learning every day on the job. I'll continue to to do other training and I'm looking into NCCA membership.
From the start I've wanted to provide the best service possible and to gain insight from training and other more experienced CC's like yourselves. The forum has been a great help so far and helps to offer feedback that you'd get in other jobs from other team members.
I have to admit when this complaint came yesterday it shocked me, as it is the first complaint I've had. I've cleaned a range of different carpets over the year and never had negative feedback from a customer until now. :'(
From the start I've had a money back guarantee policy, and yesterday I needed to honour this for the first time after having offered to re-clean which she refused.
When I go to quote a job I do a verbal pre-clean survey, and this experience has made me recognise the importance of putting it in writing!
I'm going back to the customer and will take photos as suggested by Glynn, which as you say may help to put her off making a claim on my insurance.
Thanks Jim for the attachment and Thanks to Richard for your offer, I will email you.
Kind regards
Ben
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ben
ncca course i well worth exercise 2 day course is very intense and lot to take in but is definately worth it. my advice is few months later do another one day course with one of the suppliers eg cleansmart, prochem, altec. Get in touch with your local pro skills agent there maybe funding grants availble to you in your area ( most give up at first hurdle here but if your case is worded correctly you have nothing to lose nothing ventured nothing gained)
I would drop the money back guarantee load of twoddle in my opinion most of us as profs would stand by our work anyways and endeavour to do the best job with the correct procedure. Dont believe this gains you any extra work and will only encourage that 0.5 % of a hole custys out there who will just try to use you to there advantage. Its human nature if you give them an inch they will take a mile.
Sharpen up on your pre- inspection always in writting try to always go round and quote if possible you will gain more work this way and also at a better price.
Sorry to preach just my opinion the good thing about these forums is you can take all the ideas available and then create your own plan like what some of the more experienced cc have said on here many times back in the day pre war (ken ) lol joking this option was not so readily available
regards
Rich
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Hi
Just been back to the customer and took these photos for my own records. Thought it would be worth posting them here.
Customer and her 2 adult sons were very threatening today.... not nice. I've made contact with my insurers to find out about getting an independent assessor into the house. Will keep you posted.
Thanks for comments
Ben
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Hoping they will listen to independent assessor, as they've got no intentions of listening to me.
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You need to upload a photo, so we can have a better look, but still no guarantee the people on here can say for certain.
the client will assume is is right, as the stupid saying goes, 'the customer is always right'. This she will realise is just BS, as she can not claim for a new carpet until she has given you the chance to correct it.
A good solution is to get another CC to go and view it with you, for some reason it shuts the clients up.
And don't worry about losing her as a client or getting bad mouthed, she ain't coming back and there are plenty more clients out there.
Sh*t happens.
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you upload photos during my reply
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I did a job a few years back for a reg client. Cleaned the lounge carpet, client walked into lounge shut the blinds and went on hol for weekend. When client returned from holiday, the carpet had light areas, that looked like the colour had been removed, (this was also comfirmed to the client by the carpet salesman that lived opposite, twat). The light areas were where the client had walked across the wet carpet and when it dried, there was a light reflection on the pile. A re-clean and client happy and carried on using me.
This looks similar, due to random colour changes ie. not from a re-appearing stain, traffic lanes etc
Reclean, set pile and dry with air mover, before you leave or let anyone else on carpet
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Hi ben
I would say all your cleaning has done is highlighted the pile reversal and the clean carpet is reflecting the light much more and it is therefore more obvious.
This carpet will not colour bleed so you can rule that out.
You have done nothing wrong, just be firm.
Cheers
Doug
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offering her money back is like giving a dog a bone, theres no way she's gonna let go until you ignore it. if i ever got into your position, i'd just ignore her and see where she takes it. rather than running around, bending over backwards for her. the higher you jump, the higher she'll make you jump.
derek
ps... nothing wrong with the clean,
she asked you to clean it not put the colour back in and rectify the pile.
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Hi ben
I would say all your cleaning has done is highlighted the pile reversal and the clean carpet is reflecting the light much more and it is therefore more obvious.
This carpet will not colour bleed so you can rule that out.
You have done nothing wrong, just be firm.
Cheers
Doug and derek i echo spot on
Doug
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I don't know if this picture's clear, but we moved in on the 23rd Dec 2008 (Brand new house) and I immediately realised that we had pile reversal. My wife was astonished that a brand new carpet could look like this and when I explained she accepted that there was little point in asking for a new carpet to be layed!
This custy of yours is obviously L-Bent on getting something for FREE, and she doesn't care who's gonna suffer for it! You'll win this one mate because insurance are going to tell her to sling her hook.....
Can I ask if you advertise the fact that you are "Fully Insured"? I am fully insured but don't advertise because some people see this as a means of getting something for free!
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Thanks again for your comments and feedback. I greatly appreciate this.
I'll keep you posted of any further developments on this one.....
Have a good week All.
Ben
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Ben, this lady has got clean carpets, that's what she paid you for. What she also has is carpets which are six years old, well worn through everyday use, faded by six years of sunlight and just as you would expect to find carpets of that age with average use.
I am well familiar with the type of carpet in the photos and I have had similar cleaning results to yours in the same circumstances. The only difference is my customers were not expecting miracles, were reasonable people who understood that you cannot restore wear and tear simply by cleaning something and were happy with the result.
Feel free to quote my comments to her or to anyone else if it helps your predicament in any way.
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Ben
I think you well realise that all the carpet cleaners on here are of one opinion - you cleaned a light blue carpet, looks like you done it well, and the client problem is NOT of your making nor responsibility.
You have been more then accommodating in offering her the payment back, something you need not of done except for the fact you want happy clients.
You have done more then enough.
Time to stand back.
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Your only mistake was not to find out what her expectations were and to point out what may or may not be achieved by cleaning BEFORE you took the job on.
I've had potential jobs where they wanted sorted was shading.
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Ben,
A little more ammunition. Hope you get it sorted.
http://www.carpetinspector.com/water_marking.htm
Col F
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I used to do carpet reports, it called 'pile reversal' though strictly speaking that is another problem but thats what everyone in the trade calls it.
If you go into any carpet shop from Allied to your local carpet shop on the corner they have a disclaimer on the desk or hanging from the ceiling that says that some carpets may have pile distortion and that its not a problem with the carpet.
I agree you shouldnt give a money back guarantee but thats another question, if you can find out where she bought the carpet from and ask if they will do an inspection for you, other wise the only other people that do inspections are either Servicemaster or Independent Inspections or there may be a guy still around in Otley, Yorks called Dr Eric Brown, he goes (or used to) round the world doing reports, hes a real Carpet Doctor (no offense to other carpet doctors).
Good luck
Murky
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Ben,
Just a couple of points.
1. Never advertise or tell the customer that you are fully insured, it is against insurance companies policy and they could rule your insurance invalid if they find out.
2.Products or process liability insurance that is usually tagged on to Public Liability insurance is limited to indemnity only, and is not new for old as in the case of most home contents cover. In other words if it came to a claim they would only get todays value of the carpet and not the value of a new one. After six years a carpet of that type has very little value, and would almost certainly be less than your claims excess.
Dave.
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I can't believe some people are offering a money back garauntee. What can be garaunteed. That the carpet will be cleaned? It looks to me that these garauntees are saying is that the customers expectations will be met, or exceeded. If not the customer will get a refund.
Maybe it is a clever bit of marketing but if you garauntee to meet an unknown quantity ( customers expectation ) your bound to get caught out now and again. I like to manage expectation before I start but even if you do this I don't see any way out of coughing up if you offer this kind of garauntee.
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nevil,
Very interesting point :)
It's worth a whole new thread really!
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Photos taken by ourselves can't compare to a professional photographer doing them so here goes.
The 'Hallway' is for sure a clear sign of pile reversal/pooling and is not your fault.
The first picture does give the impression of an area of dirt near the door but this could just be the picture quality.
The stair lip (whatever you want to call them) do give the impression of still being dirty but again this could be the photo.
I've never done nor ever will do the money back guarentee. I'm happy to revisit if there is a 'problem' as I said earlier in this thread.
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Have a read through this thread, Dave Lee gets it absolutely spot on. The only money I've ever given back is when I've made a boo-boo and can't deliver what I myself set as a target.
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=48053.0
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Good post there dave and something for us to take in :)