Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Craig 72 on June 21, 2009, 12:39:38 pm
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Hi all.I'm still reasonably new to WFP and I'm having teething problems,to say the least.I'm still struggling to get first cleans look right regardless of how much scrubbing and rinsing I do.Especially on upstairs windows with really ingrained dirt and flecks of paint etc.I did two houses next to each other in the week and thought it went ok but when I've stepped back the windows looked awful.I had to re-do them trad.Felt a right mug but luckily I get on well with the customers and they were fine about it.Then later on in the week I had my first customer that refused to pay.She pays via an SAE so I went round to check it out and I couldn't blame her,to be honest.Windows looked lousy,especially right in the corners of the windows.I'm considering going back to doing first cleans trad.Any advice?I'm sure I'm spending enough time on windows and I'm rinsing like crazy so there must be something I'm doing wrong.Brush perhaps?I'm using this pole:
http://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/shop/index.php/vmchk/Water-Fed-Poles/Unger-Hi-Flo-Advance-Poles/Detailed-product-flyer.html
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I know it might sound daft but have you checked your tds. Most problems are user error
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Yeah tds is fine.I'm sure the problem is with me not the system but I'm struggling to see where.
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First cleans......
Do all the upstairs frames and rinse them as you go round. Go back to the first window do upstairs glass and rinse as you go round. Go back to first upstairs window rinse all off once more.
Repeat downstairs.
Scrub scrub scrub rinse rinse rinse.
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Of interest. Was wfp invented as a better alternative to trad in that it gives a better result? Or was it invented as a safety thing? Or was it invented purely to reach windows that would otherwise be inaccessable?
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I was using the same brush the green UNGER one which is ok but try changing to a superlite one i finding there bit better. Not saying that is going to solve your problem but might help along the way
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I had the same Unger brush , but changed it to a Vican . I thought the Unger brush was not up to it . Do you have a Vican to try
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Of interest. Was wfp invented as a better alternative to trad in that it gives a better result? Or was it invented as a safety thing? Or was it invented purely to reach windows that would otherwise be inaccessable?
I think it was invented to make window cleaners life a hell of a lot more complicated and more expensive
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]Have you tried avoiding the top edge of the frames?[/i] Try this. And make sure it stays totally dry too, otherwise dirty water will run down.
The thing about the top edge of frames is that if they dont have vents then theyre perrfectly safe to scrub and rinse, ther is NO difference to doing those top edges than there is of the glass in the frame.
If theres no vent and you scrub ~ rinse then they'll be clean and there'll be NO dirt to run down, only clear water.
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Thanks for the tips everyone.I am scrubbing and rinsing a lot so I'm sure thats not the reason.I'll get a vikan brush and give that a whirl.I'll persevere and just hope things get better with experience.
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Get one of these, the SL Dual trim mono.
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Its not your brush pal its that you cannot get perfect results using wfp on first or second cleans. The results will get better but never as good as trad. Just keep rinsing dont bother wasting any more money on a new brush
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What brush is he using birdy?
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There's nothing wrong with those brushes, I use one everyday. Wfp does take a bit of getting used to but it's worth sticking with. Best bet might be to find someone local who will let you work with them for a day.
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Its not your brush pal its that you cannot get perfect results using wfp on first or second cleans. The results will get better but never as good as trad. Just keep rinsing dont bother wasting any more money on a new brush
Complete rubbish I'm afraid. How many trad wc's clean the frames every time?
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What brush is he using birdy?
Ive used 3 different types and it hasnt made any difference to results
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Thats not what I asked.
What brush is he using?
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Thats not what I asked.
What brush is he using?
If i can be bothered to read the post then why cant you
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Its not your brush pal its that you cannot get perfect results using wfp on first or second cleans. The results will get better but never as good as trad. Just keep rinsing dont bother wasting any more money on a new brush
Complete rubbish I'm afraid. How many trad wc's clean the frames every time?
dont know, how many wfp wc's clean the frames every time?
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The brush you are using IS a vikan. Unger just put their name on them & vikan make them green for them only, do don't bother getting a vikan brush.
The biggest problem with the Unger/Vikan brush is the jets are way too close to the centre thus reducing the flow to the edges of the brush. Also, even if you lift off to rinse it can be difficult to get water into the corners of the window because of this!
The best advice i can give you is to buy a super-lite brush from gardinerpolesystems. Either flocked or mono' will suite you far better IMO. ;)
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This is a real newbie question but do all brushes fit all poles?So that Gardiners one you recommend Mac would fit my Unger pole I assume?
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Are you cleaning in two passes? Once for frames and glass then a second pass for glass only?
If your trying to clean frames and glass all in one go then you'll never do a good job on a first clean. Take your time then inspect the glass before you leave. You can clean with any brush if you are thorough - even a cheapo Bentley brush.
First cleans are the biggest drawback of wfp - they take far too long but can look impressive when you get it right.
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Thats not what I asked.
What brush is he using?
If i can be bothered to read the post then why cant you
You misunderstand, my point has nothing to do with whether I can be bothered to read the chaps post fully; my point is you think he should keep the same brush, but you dont even know what one it is. How can you give that advice when you havent got all the facts?
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The brush you are using IS a vikan. Unger just put their name on them & vikan make them green for them only, do don't bother getting a vikan brush.
The biggest problem with the Unger/Vikan brush is the jets are way too close to the centre thus reducing the flow to the edges of the brush. Also, even if you lift off to rinse it can be difficult to get water into the corners of the window because of this!
The best advice i can give you is to buy a super-lite brush from gardinerpolesystems. Either flocked or mono' will suite you far better IMO. ;)
Im pleased to say I taught Tony everything he knows :D
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This is a real newbie question but do all brushes fit all poles?So that Gardiners one you recommend Mac would fit my Unger pole I assume?
Yes, will fit your pole.
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The brush you are using IS a vikan. Unger just put their name on them & vikan make them green for them only, do don't bother getting a vikan brush.
The biggest problem with the Unger/Vikan brush is the jets are way too close to the centre thus reducing the flow to the edges of the brush. Also, even if you lift off to rinse it can be difficult to get water into the corners of the window because of this!
The best advice i can give you is to buy a super-lite brush from gardinerpolesystems. Either flocked or mono' will suite you far better IMO. ;)
Im pleased to say I taught Tony everything he knows :D
At the cost of my wife for one whole night in return! I got the bargain!!!! ;D
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The brush you are using IS a vikan. Unger just put their name on them & vikan make them green for them only, do don't bother getting a vikan brush.
The biggest problem with the Unger/Vikan brush is the jets are way too close to the centre thus reducing the flow to the edges of the brush. Also, even if you lift off to rinse it can be difficult to get water into the corners of the window because of this!
The best advice i can give you is to buy a super-lite brush from gardinerpolesystems. Either flocked or mono' will suite you far better IMO. ;)
Im pleased to say I taught Tony everything he knows :D
At the cost of my wife for one whole night in return! I got the bargain!!!! ;D
:D :D :D
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Matt oakley,
Frame vent or not, the water will run around and behind the frame of the top opener, and water will then run down the pane underneath, which is what it sounds like is happening.
Dunno 'bout that, he seems to think its just the corners.
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It's not just the corners.Certain first cleans on particularly grimy windows just don't seem to come up well for me no matter how many passes I make.
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Its not your brush pal its that you cannot get perfect results using wfp on first or second cleans. The results will get better but never as good as trad. Just keep rinsing dont bother wasting any more money on a new brush
Complete rubbish I'm afraid. How many trad wc's clean the frames every time?
I do.
Gordon
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I have wfp now for 3 years and do care about the results i give my customers,
Traditional cleaning you would lose customers if they had a income problem.
Wfp you lose customers all the time, but dont get me wrong new customers still come.
But you do get fed up of trying to get new customers and the only reason i find it hard to return to ladder work is because i have seen my hourly rate increase.
Anyway its easier and less assel to do your first cleans the traditional way.
Then when finaly you water fed them you may keep the customer but if you dont it will be because of this.
Another thing i use is a harris pole to attach a mop head onto so i can srum clean and dry the uppers sills, i find this takes a little longer but the sills get cleaned better.
Dave
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Thats not what I asked.
What brush is he using?
If i can be bothered to read the post then why cant you
You misunderstand, my point has nothing to do with whether I can be bothered to read the chaps post fully; my point is you think he should keep the same brush, but you dont even know what one it is. How can you give that advice when you havent got all the facts?
You misunderstand i dont want the guy to waste any more money on wfp than he already has. In my opinion brushes make no difference its the amount of rinsing.
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YOU have to remember that wfp is a tool and you have to master this tool ;D but if
you are doing first cleans that have not been cleaned trad we ALWAYS use a bit of
soap in a bucket and if its really bad then use some trf dip the brush in the bucket
of soapy water ( im waiting for the uproar ) and scrub all the frames and just a touch on
the glass to soften the crap do all the windows upstairs and down rinsing all the soap off!
then go back to the first window and wash the glass only and not the top frame then rinse off
with a lot of practice this will be second nature BUT only go for the soap if its a real first clean
hope this helps as its the only way we do it bytheway we have never been called back in 4 years wfp
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You misunderstand i dont want the guy to waste any more money on wfp than he already has. In my opinion brushes make no difference its the amount of rinsing.
He hasnt wasted any money on WFP, its an investment ;D ;D he'll do very well out of it, especially if he invests in quality equipment.
Just because you couldnt master different brushes doesnt mean he cant.
Stick with mate, one day you'll get it. ;D ;D
To be honest I'd go back to siliconing them waspys mate ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well i used to use that green unger and ive been wfp for about 16moths and everytime i cleaned my own house the windows would spot.. not on customers just mine even when i took my time.
i got the sl dual trim wazed over my windows there was very little spots one or two at the top of the window but very good standard.
so it obviously does make a diffrence in rinsing
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i will keep on saying it ;D unger sill brush tops them all, dont listen to all the hype about it being to heavy, its all rubbish, you use a light pole and the sill brush for perfect balance, domestic only of course, if you intend working all day every day,
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NO NO NO not in a million years ;)
It's like using a house brick with a hedgehog strapped to it!
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the sill brush is my Success to perfection ;D its flocked, you can rinse on or of, clean sills and botom frame in one go, it splays well into the corners, and will out last any brush for wear, and cheaper, stay on the glass in heavy winds, you know you want one ftp ;D
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;D I know I had one :o First brush I ever used, I thought it was so good I bought a spare then out of curiosity I tried the original Superlight (cheap as chips Bentley only not that cheap after vat, etc). Stuck my new sill brush on ebay straight away.
Still got the original, just use it for weight training or mucking out the stables, that kind of thing. ;D
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;D I know I had one :o First brush I ever used, I thought it was so good I bought a spare then out of curiosity I tried the original Superlight (cheap as chips Bentley only not that cheap after vat, etc). Stuck my new sill brush on ebay straight away.
Still got the original, just use it for weight training or mucking out the stables, that kind of thing. ;D
the original super lite, (bentley is the worst brush I have ever used) the new duel trime flocked however is fantastic.
Vikan sill brush is my guys brush of choice he seems to love it ::)
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Trad first cleans. Clean off all the frames etc.
Saves time and effort.
If you have paint flakes comming of the frames then it might be best to trad them.
I traded all my first cleans untill I got confident in where all the dirt hides.
Now wfp everything on first cleans.
Good luck......stick with it. I nearly went nuts when transferring over.. ???
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sill brush is like a brick dont make me laugh ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
best brush i ever used i got lazy since using sl though
just hoping gardiners gbring out a sill brush ;D
first cleans i clean frames first rinse then drop brush down and clean
off any crap that may of attached itself tthen do the glass repeating
the same process on each window.
ive watched loads round by me scrubbing away at filthy windows and frames
without ever checking their brushes are retaing any the crap probaby
transfering to other windows as they go along then whinging about the
results.
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Now I know your having a laugh. Vikan sill brush is for cleaning caravans and trucks.
My staff would sue me if forced to use one! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
It's a good scrubber though, but then it should be - it's half the size of a window. :o
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WFP is good and has helped me out recently sinc eusing it but i still also trad some jobs as the WFP wa sleaving marks on wooden frame jobs i had. i am just as quick using ali pole with applicator and squegee on these jobs.
it's a good toool and that is how i see it.
however i would still say trad gives a better finish.
it's not a magic wand. i have told myself this and i am happy on what i use it on and what i dont use it on.
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It's not just the corners.Certain first cleans on particularly grimy windows just don't seem to come up well for me no matter how many passes I make.
Clean off top and side frames and rinse well, spray the glass and move on to the next window, repeat and come back to the first one. Clean off top and side frame and rinse well. Clean glass, rinse well, brush sill rinse well, move on to next window etc etc. Wetting the window first SOMETIMES help to soften grime. Always check before you leeave even if it means shinning up the rungs to have a look :)
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Thanks for the tips everyone.
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"we ALWAYS use a bit of
soap in a bucket and if its really bad then use some trf dip the brush in the bucket
of soapy water ( im waiting for the uproar ) "
Sound advise, often dip the brush in a solution of gg3/pure water on 1st cleans and get great results , just need to rinse loads.
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jouk,
re: sill brusk isn't flocked the fluffy bristles?
i thought you coulcn't rinse on the glass with these as they trap dirt in bristles?
I have vikan hi-lo mono filament (red bristles)
i never rinse on glass
Haven't tried rinsing in glass as thought only can do with double trim brush.
Often thought of trying flocked sill brush as i think mono sill brush i have can be a bit stiff.
Craig where do you live.
why don't you organise a few hours out with someone on here.
I think that's the best way.
;) i'm in essex.
I'm sure someone can help there is a section on here regarding this.
not sure where?
Lee
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I'm in Welling,South East London ish.I would be up for that definitely if somebody was prepared to do that for me.If anyone is local to me and doesn't mind me cramping their style for a few hours give me a shout!
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Just thought I'd show these pics.
18th Century Merchants Mansion. Not been cleaned for at least 3 years.
These pics are after 2nd clean. (1st was 10 weeks ago)
Obviously inside & out, but hardly a water mark anywhere (and some winnies are 3 stories up witha vikan sill !)
Also I dont use DI & my TDS is betwwen 5 & 10.
Make what you will.
Kevin
(http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq175/fergielad/Gough.jpg)
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I love cleaning old glass. It seems to want to get clean.
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Kevin,what the bejeezus is that vehicle your using in that pic?Looks like something Buck Rogers would use for window cleaning.I want one!
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Have a look at www.lifeonaledge.co.uk
Cheers kevin.
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Looks like an excellent set up you have there mate.Exactly the kind of thing I aspire to in the not too distant future (hopefully).That buggy thing looks class,I must admit!
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what car and trailer do you use to pull that bugy about and is it quicker than a van
mount/?
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really cant see the point of trading first cleans? just take your time with wfp do all frames first then go round again?? charge double or time and a half for it.
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I bet that quad is nice in the winter or the Hissing rain.
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Its not your brush pal its that you cannot get perfect results using wfp on first or second cleans. The results will get better but never as good as trad. Just keep rinsing dont bother wasting any more money on a new brush
Complete rubbish I'm afraid. How many trad wc's clean the frames every time?
dont know, how many wfp wc's clean the frames every time?
I do............... 8) Syd
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what car and trailer do you use to pull that bugy about and is it quicker than a van
mount/?
Hi,
most of my work is in a 3 mile radius & I pull a trailer carrying 300 litres plus 120 on the bike.
Sometimes I run out at 4ish so home for a top up.
For the further jobs, the quad goes in a homemade box trailer based on a 3 tonne Ivor Williams. Towed by a 6.5 ton iveco tipper truck.
Kevin.
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I have been here many times
WFP is an excellent tool but its no magic wand
I have a few jobs that i have been doing for years that do not come up well WFP the other 99% of my work comes up perfect with WFP
I like many now only use the unger hi lo (sill) brush
I have the flocked and mono i can never remember which ones which but the red and green one i use for leaded the red more stiffer one i use for everything else
I would never use any other brush now apart from sill brushes and as said on here a lot of people say there heavy i guess these people have not used one as they are not heavy at all.
The few jobs i do that do not come up well with WFP i trad them with good old fairy
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Most days after doing jobs so fast which used to take ages i`m still so surprised at how good a job it does,losing faith no way if anything gaining more and more confidence in WFP it`s all down to the user IMO if your having lots of trouble look at your technique and work at that because 9 times out of 10 that`s what it`ll be.
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Very rarely ever get a complaint about my work. For the last 2 years I switched from using 2 jets to 4 jets on a brush which I prefer. However, I think I've reached the point where I get carried away sometimes and try using too much water too quickly as I've been noticing a few runs lately on some of my work so I've started to slow down a bit now as I think that has been my problem (rushing too quickly with too much water). Anyone had the same problem?
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You never get a great clean first and more often than not second time due to soap build-up on glass from years of traditional cleaning so thinking that you will clean window using traditional method first time is a contradiction - you will only perpetuate the problem. Explain situation to customers without sounding too gimicky - be as honest and straightforward as possible. Bear in mind some customers will accept good naturedly others will react with scepticism. Accept that you will always have a mixture of customers regards those who have no problem with you using wfp and the others who would prefer you to use traditional - but price accordingly. Traditional should always be at least a couple of quid dearer (use of ladders etc...).
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So a ten grand investment on wfp should always be cheaper than your 70p bucket ???
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So a ten grand investment on wfp should always be cheaper than your 70p bucket ???
The answer to your question is YES,i no longer have to climb ladders any day let alone in this heat or slippery surfaces in the winter.5 years ago i would have paid 10k for that alone if it allowed me to work 3-4 times as quick as trad,cheaper than your 70p bucket i would say to anyone thinking of going WFP do it you`ll laugh at the way you used to clean windows and be amazed at how quickly you get through your work,i spoke to a WC today who reckons he needs another 1/2 a round cos he`s blitzing through his work like me lol. ;D
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You never get a great clean first and more often than not second time due to soap build-up on glass from years of traditional cleaning so thinking that you will clean window using traditional method first time is a contradiction - you will only perpetuate the problem. Explain situation to customers without sounding too gimicky - be as honest and straightforward as possible. Bear in mind some customers will accept good naturedly others will react with scepticism. Accept that you will always have a mixture of customers regards those who have no problem with you using wfp and the others who would prefer you to use traditional - but price accordingly. Traditional should always be at least a couple of quid dearer (use of ladders etc...).
I havent completely changed over yet at all, but when i do in the next 6 months, (ive been dragging my heels as i didnt want to upset people and go slower in the intermediary period etc) but when i do thats it, ladders no more, whats the point in doing houses on ladders when you dont need too
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So you are willing to clean cheaper with wfp ???
Buggered if i'm undercutting trad workers after parting with that kind of money ???
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I charge the same as i would have done trad unless it`s a huge run of easy to get at glass and even then i don`t go in a lot cheaper,what`s the point as you say ftp.
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mainly invented to make some a lot of money and to an extent safety and some higher work