Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Collybolly on June 15, 2009, 11:42:45 pm
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Since our window cleaner came down off his ladder & started using a WFP every DG window in the house has 'blown'. Seems a coincidence, after years of traditional cleaning . Not happy-can't afford to get them fixed.
Was just wondering is this a common problem with WFP's?
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All mine blew after 3-4 years........................ and I my old window cleaner was Trad. They all blew before WFP went anywhere near them.
Crap units!!!
I clean a few houses who have had their DG for 20 years and have no probs. It's all down to the quality of product and fitting.
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i nearly ended up with a private summons for blown seals , i managed to get a statement from a double glazing firm saying that seals can go at anytime and wfp wont cause a blown seal , theres times when rain hits the glass harder than wfp .
wfp if used on the property will allways be the first thing blamed .
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Double glazing is guaranteed for 5 years when they are wooden, 10 years for upvc. When they have been badly fitted, they can go so quickly it's not even funny anymore.
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I have one unit in my home that has blown, Its funny I never noticed it before I cleaned them WFP and inspected every window then wondered why it was the only one that didn't clean OK. Point is it was always blown I just didn't notice.
I do think that in a already blown window the difference in water temperature and inside temperature could temporarily make things look worse though, and customers always look when they know you've been.
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My windows have never been cleaned, either with wfp or trad, and my front window is blown.
The main cause for this, is the house moves all the time, when it gets cold the house contracts and when it warms up, it expands, and this movement causes the seals to break.
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Might be worth pointing out that it is the purity of the water, and agitating with the bristles that does the cleaning, that it isn't a 'jetwash' system.
There isn't much water pressure to speak of when it comes out of your nozzles.
My pump is 75 psi but that's before the water goes thru all the hose and up the pole, there is a significant pressure drop thru that lot!
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Since our window cleaner came down off his ladder & started using a WFP every DG window in the house has 'blown'. Seems a coincidence, after years of traditional cleaning . Not happy-can't afford to get them fixed.
Was just wondering is this a common problem with WFP's?
Why jump straight to the conclusion that it is because of WFP? There's no more of a reason for it to be WFP causing this than trad cleaning or bad weather or whatever. Nothing lasts forever, so why does there have to be a "blame" apportioned. Sounds like old fittings, want new. so blame the WC >:( shame
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That's true enough.
When I first set up I canvassed a road and got a house where the lead strips were in some places literally hanging off. They got me to do it then phoned me up and asked if I was insured!
When I made it plain that what he hoped for wasn't going to happen he gave up.
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Helen we have become a "blame state"
We have to find someone to blame for anything hence why we have claims direct and lawyers for u etc.
they have to blame someone instead of accepting they are clumsy sods!
Matt
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All mine blew after 3-4 years........................ and I my old window cleaner was Trad. They all blew before WFP went anywhere near them.
Crap units!!!
I clean a few houses who have had their DG for 20 years and have no probs. It's all down to the quality of product and fitting.
you only get what you pay for
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What about the water going into the vents? Natural rainfall will never get into the frame this way like wfp will. The little bags inside absorb moisture not water which has been forced through!
An already blown seal will sometimes look worse when wfp'd though. I do a very large bungalow & all the back windows steam up when wfp'd!
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pittmonkey got it right,its all down to the fiiting and quality,upvc windows have drainage in-built so the more water you put at them the more comes out.this will not afect the sealed units at all in fact what does is washing up liquid(most edge sealants to sealed units now adays are hot melt which is oil based and washing up liquid destroys this seal causing air/moisture to ingress)to be fair its most likely crap fitting whats caused it-see it most days(glazier during the week)wfp won't do this to sealed units guess its a case of right time/wrong place
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An already blown seal will sometimes look worse when wfp'd though. I do a very large bungalow & all the back windows steam up when wfp'd!
Correct there Macmac, probably south facing as well (wide range of temperatures)?
If wfp causes excessive moisture to show on already blown windows, then possibly this could be causing high moisture build up on every double glazed unit but obviously not showing due to the moisture absorbant in between the glass edges, but this would eventually give up at an increased rate. Wfp could be causing a speeding up of double glazing units failing. Hope not but it's a possibility I'm sure ???
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Double glazing is guaranteed for 5 years when they are wooden, 10 years for upvc. When they have been badly fitted, they can go so quickly it's not even funny anymore.
Just from my observations on my own round, thew seals wooden frames do seem to be more vulnerable to whatever causes them to "blow" than those on UPVC.
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That's right Kevin. There are two ways to make the sealed unit "Hot Melt and "Cold Melt"
The Company who fitted mine bleated on about how the Hot Melt was the best way " Yeah Right" He made the sealed units himself and bought the frames from a Supplier.
Nothing wrong with the frames they still look good. But on inspection now, most of the drain holes on the frames were blocked by architrave or upvc bead/trim fitted around the frame. Hence, Bad fitting & Crap Sealed Units. Without a lie every single unit has blown. I will get around to re-fitting the units but will also need to refit most if not all of trim around the frames.
The other factor in units blowing is the type of frame. Woodgrain are more suspect to blowing if they are exposed to the sun for long periods e.g "South Facing Windows". Some advice I was given was to go with white as obviously white disperse the heat better. Not sure if there is any substance to this but is does sound plausible.
I have a custy at the moment who has asked me to stop cleaning two of her windows as she wants them to dry out. I know she suspects WFP. All Woodgrain Frames, two at the front are South Facing. ::) These units had already gone before I started cleaning them but failed to mention it when I quoted.
I do point out now when quoting any units that have blown. I tell them they can go at anytime and tell them of my own experience. Hopefully to quell any potential claims :)
It does sound like this is going to be an ongoing accusation against WFP and maybe one day some scientific proof might come to light and prove WFP to be a cause. If it does, them ebay will be full of S/H WFP systems for sale. Going very cheap ;D
Wayne
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Why jump straight to the conclusion that it is because of WFP?
Our property is well maintained. It is a statement of fact, that 16 windows cleaned regularly by WFP have blown. The remainder cleaned by trad methods haven't.
Seems anyone with any modicum of brains would draw the same conclusion.
so why does there have to be a "blame" apportioned.
Sounds like old fittings, want new. so blame the WC >:( shame
Not old fittings, not cheap, didn't need new. Not "blaming" the Window Cleaner himself (see original post) ...just querying whether it's a common problem caused by the WFP, but I'm sure the pole can fight his own battles.
Thanks for the more helpful replies; so in the absence of scientific proof, the upshot is that it could be caused by the pole or it has exacerbated an existing problem. Either way, we're looking at a hefty repair bill I suppose.
Cheers
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Either way, we're looking at a hefty repair bill I suppose.
I would buy them yourself & fit them, they're not that expensive just the glass units. It's a simple job too. ;)
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Interesting stuff. Did a blown window today, second one I've seen so far do this, very hot south facing window, I cleaned them, with cold water, first job. And when I did the house, and returned, the misty window was much much worse, and you could actually see the drips. Before you could barely see it. It must have condensated because my water was cold, and the windows were baking hot.
Thought it was interesting to mention. Ofcourse wfp isn't the cause of a blown window, but it can momentarily make them look worse.
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I have got hundreds of customers both domestic and commercial who I have been cleaning for years.
There are a few percent who have blown seals but the majority do not.
If wfp cleaning was causing this then by logic more of my customers would l start to have blown seals over the amount of years that I have been cleaning them.
I have also asked a friend of mine who works for Pilkingtons Glass, if this was possible, he did not think it was possible, also when the seal units are finshed they are cleaned with Pure Water, the same what we use to clean windows.
You do seem to have a lot of blown seals, I take it they all came from the same supplier and where fitted at the same time, if this is the case then maybe the quality issue of the glass units or fitting might be a factor to also look at.
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If double glazing units were always at the same temperature they would never fail, it's the fluctuation of temperatures that causes moisture on the insides, this moisture gets removed by the absorbent material between the pains of glass, once the absorbant material has absorbed all it pyhsically can, then the moisture will build up on the inside of the unit and will be deemed to have "blown/failed"
We must increase the rate of moisture build up be applying hot water to cold windows or cold water to hot windows, however small that might be it surely doesn't help :-\
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No no, that's not right. The moisture comes in with the air, not from the water we use. Unless the gaskets are completely shot, and the unit will be standing in water, it's just not going to happen.
Remember that even desert air contains moisture, you can create a sand pit, with a platic cover, and still collect water because it condensates on the plastic. Long story, and it's too late.
Even when I was trad the windows were misty, it's just the way it goes, it has got nothing to do with wfp. It may cause the moisture to condensate, hence making it look temporarily a bit worse, but the moisture was already in there.
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Fluctuating temperatures? None of the blown windows are south facing and we don't have any central heating at all. There's a small coal fire in one room. My thermometer tells me that it's sometimes as cold in the house as outside!
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can cold water from wfp crack glass that has been facing sun all day and become hot
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can cold water from wfp crack glass that has been facing sun all day and become hot
Highly doubt it, usually at the end of the day your water is lukewarm due to a hot van.
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The same could be said for the opposite. Using HOT wfp on cold glass. (Especially in Winter) This is my only concern regarding going HOT.
Now I'm sure if a large company like Ionic have systems out there in the field, test must have been carried out to make sure there are no potential problems. But its still early days I suppose.
Wayne
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The same could be said for the opposite. Using HOT wfp on cold glass. (Especially in Winter) This is my only concern regarding going HOT.
Now I'm sure if a large company like Ionic have systems out there in the field, test must have been carried out to make sure there are no potential problems. But its still early days I suppose.
Wayne
Plenty of people have cracked panes and continue to do so, unless there are concrete statistics, I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet. One broken pane is one too many!
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Fluctuating temperatures? None of the blown windows are south facing and we don't have any central heating at all. There's a small coal fire in one room. My thermometer tells me that it's sometimes as cold in the house as outside!
If the inside temperature is the same as the outside then it shows that your double glazing unit has no vacumn.
Years ago I use to sell double glazing and I used to do a heat test to show why double glazing works, I use to place a lighted lighter under one side of the seal unit and ask the potential customer to place their hand on the other side.
They did not feel any heat what so ever, because heat cannot travel though a vacumm.
On a blown unit, the vacumm has gone and heat from the house will escape to the outside.
The reason you have now noticed the blown glass is because we use water that cools the inner layer of glass and condersation has occurred.
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Did a little observation today while working. Made a point of looking at all the windows on house's I didn't clean.
It was quite an eye opener to see so many blown units. I few I do already had blown units before I started. So realistically WFP isn't really a cause, they just fail and that's it. But again poor fitting and cheaper units could easily accelerate the problem.
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Been cleaning windows for 26 years and have seen whole estates of 4 and 5 bedroom houses with virtually every window blown, years before I started to use wfp.
When trad I used to make a point of mentioning blown windows when I noticed them, nowadays I don't bother and get the odd comment about blown windows.
I think that wfp is a whole lot more gentle on the windows than shammy and leather.
Once more we have to work on educating our customers, maybe an information sheet would come in handy for anyone worried about wfp blowing their windows.
It would be a good addition to the documents section !
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Once more we have to work on educating our customers,
Looks like a lot of 'People' cleaning windows need educating too ;D
There's a new estate around here which is about 7 years old, some of them have windows cleaned wfp, some trad, some don't have them cleaned. But the one thing they all have in common (no matter which direction they are facing) is that 'blown; units are starting to appear all over the estate.
Therefore: we need look no further than poor quality manufactured double glazing units.