Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mike Halliday on May 29, 2009, 05:38:43 pm
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cut & pasted this from the ICS site
On the front page of the June 2009 Bane-Clene newsletter is an article with the title "Pre-Vacuuming required for all cleaning?"
In the article, Bill Bane makes the argument that the CRI (and I suppose, the IICRC) is in error for requiring that carpets be prevacuumed prior to cleaning.
"Vacuuming carpet, especially with an agitation device, stirs up dry soil and dispenses dust particles into the air. Hepa filter sales have increased thanks to the hyperbole about vacuuming. But the fact is tha most portable vacuums dispense dirty, rancid air back into the room atmosphere."
Mr Bane then goes on the explain that "Bane-Clene's ExternalExtraction with a gentle cleaning agent, wets the soil keeping it from becoming airborne. Moisture and soil are simultaneously extracted and exhausted through a sealed hose along with foul air to the outside of the building where it dissipates into the atmosphere. The results are faster drying carpet, minimal residue and a lingering clean fragrance."
What he seems to be saying is hwe, when properly performed, does not need prevacuuming. HWE will extract the soils by itself, and prevacuuming carpets, even with Hepa filtered vacuums, exposes the indoor environment to allergins and contaminants.
Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Bane?
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What he seems to be saying is hwe, when properly performed, does not need prevacuuming.
Rubbish.
What about hairs and other matter than get tangled into the pile? You're going to need a bit more than pre-spray, agitate and squirt/suck to get those out.
I've done some suites that looked 99.9% better just with a decent vacuuming. Now ask yourself why would you go straight in with hwe by creating a 'muddy mess' when vacuuming the hard bits out dry does the job.
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I always Pre-Vac as this is how I have been taught via NCCA and IICRC.
It also seems like best practice, especially considering some of the carpets I have seen. I even Pre-Vac if the customer tells me they have just vacuumed.
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I'm only a beginner, but some of the carpets I've been over with the BS36 have looked 50% better immediately.
We bring lots of little stones in on our shoes at our house - wouldn't really want them going through the cc machine.
Owen
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Do you normally vac your clothes before they go in the washing machine? :P
I personally think the whole vacuuming thing is for the operators satisfaction and not the customers, unless you've got girt big bits on the carpets (which most of my custys dont) then they wont see any difference if you vac or not !
In any case if the hwe is not bringing out the soil, whats the point of doing it at all ::)
steve
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I have to say the only carpets I tend to vac are the rentals, usually mrs customer has already vacced before I arrive and rather than make her look silly I thank her for doing it and go straight on with pre spray and scrub.
But yes I have to say carpets do clean better when they have had a good vac first as it tends to open the pile allowing the pre spray to clean the pile rather than the surface dirt.
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Steve,
Could not agree more!!
I have been cleaning for over 20 years and have never pre vacuumed unless obviously required.
Why do the job twice. My take on this system, is for the followers of high priced cleaning "guru's"
selling methods to justify their high price strategies. It just stretches out the "cleaning" time.
Jim
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I see what you are saying and have often thought that customers that have their carpets cleaned are the ones that usually look after them and vacuum on a frequent basis, I think we all know the statistic that 80% of dirt in a carpet is dry dirt but is that based on a carpet that hasn't been vacuumed for a long period of time?
Don't they say that 86% of statistics are made up on the spot??
Shaun
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I think some of the problem is newer ones look for a strict regime to follow to do a "professional" job each time, whereas in reality a little common sense is a lot more valuable, just do what individual jobs require, experience has taught me you can still do a top job and only do whats really required, after all most are in business to make some money, why do something if its not really necessary, never really understood that!
steve
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Shaun,
Statistics, statistics, they can mean whatever the promoter of said statistics needs to proove.
Sometimes, you believe them at your peril. you can get sucked in to the latest "Best System".
What doe's it matter if their vacuum cleaner is crap? Your cleaning system can tackle "ANYTHING"
It's personal, do what you are comfortable with and what you feel is right. It's your choice.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!
Jim
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Must say i do not vac on all jobs and agree with some of the above posts that most dont require a vac as the householder vacs on a regular basis,maybe a trashed rental thats covered with all sorts and thats just to protect my machines..
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I have been to numerous properties where yes they use a vacuum cleaner on a regular basis to a large degree to a good standard but i have yet to come across a single one where I haven't needed to pre vac somewhere.
The favorite is along edges where the carpet is pinned down between gripper and wall. So we use the edging tool don't we, a wand no matter how brilliant it is, isn't going to deal with that.
As for the comparrison with washing cloths, in relative terms that would be the equiliant of 'washing' carpets in about 300 gallons of water.
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there are a couple of question that are in my mind as I read the replies.
So if I don't vac are the pro-vaccers saying the end result will not be as clean and if so, how do we know? will it be visibly dirty?
how do we know that the dirt that is left because we don't vac will not be picked up by the vacuum of the extractor?
I think a lot of assumptions are made with this topic.
and the biggest load of rubbish (IMO) is the 'mud' example to say spraying solution onto a un-vacuumed carpet will create a mud like substance which will be impossible to remove is ridiculous.
I think vacuuming is part of a whole myth within carpet cleaning which is perpetuated by the older members of our profession dating back to when we had weak single vac machine which need all the help they could get to remove the dirt.
we need to have some proper testing to answer some major myths which are constantly quoted as though they are written on tablets of stone in some ancient temple of carpet cleaning.
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Don't they say that 86% of statistics are made up on the spot??
Shaun
It's actually 87%...... ;D ;D ;D
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I think it slightly depends on what you are HWE on as well.
If you have a low power portie with little heat, you need all the help you can get and vaccing can help you along.
If you have a Titan the heat, force and suck will open up the pile and suck the life out of and hair/debris etc.
At the end of the day it's a balance to get the excellent perceived result and your time (money).
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I always vacuum unless the customer has left it immaculate which is very rare ,never used to if there where just a few bits about but once I got a holed glide it became an essential part of the job.
Think it looks as if you care more in the customers eyes aswell, also stops the filter clogging up so quick on the prowler aswell.
regards Andy Locke.
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When I first started I used to pre-vac on every job, now I only do it when obviously required.
Plus having vacuumed, I then use the sebo duo which brings up a load of fluff therefore slightly defeating the object.
Steve
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and the biggest load of rubbish (IMO) is the 'mud' example to say spraying solution onto a un-vacuumed carpet will create a mud like substance which will be impossible to remove is ridiculous.
Try reading what I wrote again, I didn't say impossible to remove
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all depends if i feel it is required more than not it is in my opinion.
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Some people just like to make more work for themselves when it is not required. If it is obvious due to crap and bits all over the carpet then yes vac it. CCs that say pre vac is required on ALL carpets must only clean the carpets that never see a vaccuum.
Richie.
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When all's considered, reality is what we perceive it to be and it differs from one person to another.
Some try to justify high charges by saying the they ALWAYS carry out 6 procedures when in most cases one will do the job adequately and enable pricing to be more competetive delivering better value.
If you make exaggerated claims to justify taking twice as long, or more, than someone else you will have great difficulty justifying them to the majority of customers.
A capable operator can leave a carpet as clean and dry in a single process and in half the time or less than the " must follow orders "pedantic style of the " go by the book " operator.
Retention and referrals are more likely to follow the former style than the latter.
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With a porty yes, with T/M hardly ever.
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Hi Guys
I think he(Bill Bane) is right, a truckmount has suufficent power a to remove particulate soil and other dirt without stirring it into the atmosphere.
Cheers
Doug
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It is all about customer perception.
We use a pile lifter on every job.
We say to the customer " the first thing we do is vacuum, its not that we think you don`t its just that our vacuum is about 5 times more powerful than yours so we get out all the deep down dirt and grit that over time will cut the fibres and wear out the carpet "
We then use a large, heavy, very noisy pile lifter that always impresses the customer and we even get people thinking we have cleaned by just doing this.
Whether it is actually any better than not vacuuming I have no idea but to the customer the perception is we are doing a professional job and that is worth paying for.
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Fenman now thats what i want to hear.I have just bought a chemspec pile lifter for this exact purpose so going on what you said its £300 well spent.Regards Alan(swindon)
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when i started out cleaning my first job was a deep piled saxony, was full of dog hairs that matched the colour of the carpet (dark brown with black flecks) an ear-ring embedded in the pile, lots of tiny stones in the hall section of the carpet...moral of the story...
"you cant always visibly see the sh*t in the carpet."
yes the customers may well get a good job without pre-vac, but for my own peace of mind, and for the fact that a 2k machine isnt bulletproof, for me pre-vac is an added insurance policy and somethin that customers appreciate.
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It does depend on the situation.
One or two companies have a method of water filteration vaccum either a seperate machine or an attachment I think ashbys do one but I believe it has never caught on.
I sometimes think this Pre Vac Thing is a sales ploy to justfy £5 plus a metre or to defrenciate yourselves from other Carpet Cleaners
Is it not posible to use a Truckmount on Vac only first
Could someone tell me why the Ashbys system is not popular
To me it make more sense than bringing in another piece of kit
Ie Vaccum,
Power agitator,
And Machine or Vac hosses
Why not an all in one system
An
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Ian I think the all in one machine would be a good idea for us but not for the customer as they want to see machinery that they think they are paying loads of money for.
I'd like to see that Ashbys machine I didn't know about that one, personally I'd like an upright water filteration vac a bit like the canister ones but with a brush roll it would be a good show piece for customers.
Shaun
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it reads to me like vacuuming is done by some to give a perceived value or to justify a higher price.
how about instead of doing something that gives a perceived value you actually do something that has an actual value.
I think if you want to impress the customer rather than tell how good you are going to vacuum the carpets with your super-duper industrial vacuum cleaner, you explain that as part of your cleaning service not only will you expertly clean the carpet but as a finishing touch you will clean all the paintwork within the room. This will take the same amount of time as you as you would have if you'd vacuumed in the beginning, but I think this will have a greater value to the customer.
remember the customer has a vacuum cleaner and use it often so won't be impressed with you vacuuming, but how often do they wipe down their paintwork? ( especially behind heavy furniture)
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Hi Guys
Mike, why not just clean the carpet.
I will only vac if it needs it, derbris, hair etc.
Not much point in investing 10-30K in a TM and then spending ages vacuming with a 200 Pound machine.
I know vacuuming is sold as the difference between a pro and an amateur but in my view this is a dated analogy, when so much money is now invested in high powered machines .
Cheers
Doug
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Doug you're right, why not do what they called us for.... Clean the carpets!
my point is if you feel the need to go the extra mile to try and impress the customer then do something which they will value.
plus if we are in a quoting situation with another carpet cleaner we need to look like we are doing more than the other company, otherwise we are all doing the same so they might as well just chose the cheapest quote.
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Hi Guys
Mike that brings us to USP's , mine are TM, dry CC, years of experience and stain removal.
Vacuuming isn't among them !
Cheers
doug
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alway's vac before cleaning, even if the customer has vac'd, i like to spend a good amount of time vac'ing before cleaning... i use a sebo bs36... charlie
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Alltec had an inline filter years ago but dropped it due to poor sales.
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I have not got time to read all this any way seen two meny times before if you do not vac the dust in the carpet WILL make mud, its only too easy to pre vac.
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in all the years I've beed cleaning carpets i have never ever seen mud!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2sMuVPMkkk
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I was very surprise to learn today an office which Wayne and I did Saturday only gets vacuumed twice a week if we are lucky (there quote) :o some areas are 24/7 did we no! 8) He can’t his head round another method I use! He still thinks it needs a tank and hwe, he young and a perfectionist. ;) ;D
Mike
You ant missed much! There like muddy waters! ;D
Ian
I’ve got one called a dust downer as the name implies ???
Len
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I am a firm believer in pre vaccing where necessary, but find that there are quite a few that do not need it as the client vacs regularly.
Also domestic vacuum cleaners are alot more powerful and efficient than they used to be so the carpets are not so ingrained with grit.
If a carpet is fully loaded with soil, as in grit, sand etc, I would imagine this would be harder to extract from a carpet once it is wet as it tends to stick to the fibres more on its way out, even with the power of a truckmount. Better to extract it as dry soil.
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Derek's youtube videos on his website look good, who did them for him?
Shaun
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its all about the type of service you want to provide
some pre vac, some dont
some aggitate, some dont
some qoute over the phone, others go out to quote
i think it all depends on the market you are targetting
as long as YOUR MARKET ARE HAPPY then thats ok
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Derek's youtube videos on his website look good, who did them for him?
Shaun
did it himself i think.
where has he got too haven seen him on here for while
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He bought his own vid camera a while back i think..