Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: ftp on May 21, 2009, 08:56:46 pm

Title: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ftp on May 21, 2009, 08:56:46 pm
Is obviously £1000 a week and more then?
Whenever a pricing question comes up on a fair sized job it's always around £200 for five hours work. Bang in a few more houses in the remaining time and bobs your uncle.
I'm happy with my earnings but can't honestly say I top 300 a day.  ???
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: geefree on May 21, 2009, 09:00:36 pm
This topic should be banned ! >:( ;)
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: andyatkinson on May 21, 2009, 09:01:41 pm
I worked this out recently and i average £4.35 an hour which i think is great coz im only 24
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: LWC on May 21, 2009, 09:03:28 pm
I worked this out recently and i average £4.35 an hour which i think is great coz im only 24

Sheesh your doing alright mate.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: geefree on May 21, 2009, 09:03:50 pm
good for you Andy    ;D ;D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: martinsadie on May 21, 2009, 09:03:58 pm
i started work in 1975 on 25p a hour,kids today dont know how lucky they are  ;D ;D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: andyatkinson on May 21, 2009, 09:06:50 pm
of course i havent taken my running costs of that figure for wfp etc, but my customers are nice and sometimes they let me take extra choccie biscuits home for my wife which more than compensates for my slightly below average earnings
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: jr windows on May 21, 2009, 09:08:03 pm
After I've paid to have my moat cleaned I won't earn a penny this year.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ftp on May 21, 2009, 09:08:29 pm
Imagine what you could earn with a skill.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: LWC on May 21, 2009, 09:10:17 pm
Being serious though, the amount of money i have spent on WFP and on oing costs knocks my money right down.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: weetot on May 21, 2009, 09:11:04 pm
25p per hour................You were lucky.................There were a hundered and fifty of us livin in,t shoebox in't middle of 't' road. ;D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: andyatkinson on May 21, 2009, 09:13:58 pm
not too bad matt if your a scum bag in an estate car like me, with a ................. TROLLEY!!
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: LWC on May 21, 2009, 09:17:11 pm
not too bad matt if your a scum bag in an estate car like me, with a ................. TROLLEY!!

yeh thats true...VAT registered indeed!
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: edd on May 21, 2009, 09:48:31 pm
matt you haven't spent hardly any money on your home-made system not like
some poor people on here with an Ionic van lol £ 28000 yes thousands £614 a month ouch............................ why did I go this way never again

That said the business is a mega one now!! but home-made for me next time
with a new van though umm nice
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: matt on May 21, 2009, 10:25:37 pm
matt you haven't spent hardly any money on your home-made system not like
some poor people on here with an Ionic van lol £ 28000 yes thousands £614 a month ouch............................ why did I go this way never again

That said the business is a mega one now!! but home-made for me next time
with a new van though umm nice

are you serious

the ionics brand name brings you in only the top end work ( 100 quid a hour PLUS )

that wouldnt happen with a home-made system
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: macmac on May 21, 2009, 11:06:46 pm
Is obviously £1000 a week and more then?
Whenever a pricing question comes up on a fair sized job it's always around £200 for five hours work. Bang in a few more houses in the remaining time and bobs your uncle.
I'm happy with my earnings but can't honestly say I top 300 a day.  ???

You know the average wage, infact, you probably do better than many on here. The difference is, you're honest & not a (mmmmm, let me think.......................) "A proffessor in global business & transluscent weather protection steralization" :P
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: windowswashed on May 22, 2009, 07:42:45 am
There's a few Ionic wfp systems for sale on ebay. Perhaps it's a reflection of challenging economic times at moment. It's not a good idea banging on who can earn £200-300 a day, etc etc, boring, very boring........................
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ftp on May 22, 2009, 07:57:50 am
 ;D no-one is banging on about how much they earn a day. The point is the high prices people quote on here when someone asks for advice.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: cozy on May 22, 2009, 08:05:50 am
25p per hour................You were lucky.................There were a hundered and fifty of us livin in,t shoebox in't middle of 't' road. ;D
Been there, done that!  ;D

Used to work a 32 hour shift for half a crown, Tell that the young people today, they won't believe you. ???
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: big J on May 22, 2009, 08:16:32 am
the fact that you are all still in the trade tells me a couple of things ..
that you are making more than the dole

that deep down you are fairly happy with you wages

that you dont want a proper job :P ;D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: Oakley Windows on May 22, 2009, 09:08:54 am


that you dont want a proper job :P ;D

'ere whats that then :D :D

Just had a mate on the phone, he works as a site manager on a construction site. He says 'are you going to work today............?'

I said, 'well, its Friday, I might, probably just wind my week down and do a bit'

He said 'every day is like a friday to you, Im working til 5 and tomorrow' :D :D :D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: s.w.c on May 22, 2009, 09:47:15 am
the fact that you are all still in the trade tells me a couple of things ..
that you are making more than the dole

that deep down you are fairly happy with you wages

that you dont want a proper job :P ;D



well put!!!!!
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: Moderator David@stives on May 22, 2009, 04:10:27 pm
Your wage is the net figure on your tax return, not what goes through your hands

even if you took £50k you would be lucky to see a pre tax profit of £30k.

Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ftp on May 22, 2009, 04:17:02 pm
pre - tax ??? So what have you spent 20k on?

My costs last year were around 6k and that includes setting up a guttervac type system with generator and new carbon pole. I fail to see how a sole trader could part with 20,000 in one year unless purchasing a new van?
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: WCE on May 22, 2009, 05:24:38 pm
pre - tax ??? So what have you spent 20k on?

My costs last year were around 6k and that includes setting up a guttervac type system with generator and new carbon pole. I fail to see how a sole trader could part with 20,000 in one year unless purchasing a new van?
Dave is not a sole trader though if you employ then it is easy to spend that!
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ftp on May 22, 2009, 05:32:37 pm
In which case his turnover will be far in excess of anything i'm talking about.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ronnie paton on May 22, 2009, 05:34:29 pm
i could spend nearly 6k on running one van????
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: leapstallbuildings on May 22, 2009, 07:48:13 pm
I'm a sole trader.  I have invested in a fair bit of equipment but I didn't go the most expensive route.  If I take everything into account - and I do mean absolutely everything, it costs me a modest wage just to run my small business.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: kenaltobelli on May 22, 2009, 08:03:35 pm
had an intresting chat today a company near me lost a contract £50k
let 2/3 workers go they have set up as competion god £50k thats a lot of brass
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: LWC on May 22, 2009, 08:16:16 pm
matt you haven't spent hardly any money on your home-made system not like
some poor people on here with an Ionic van lol £ 28000 yes thousands £614 a month ouch............................ why did I go this way never again

That said the business is a mega one now!! but home-made for me next time
with a new van though umm nice

Over the past years of WFP ive racked up about £15k on everything...i think thats quite alot to be fair. Wish id had montlhy instalments lol
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ftp on May 23, 2009, 07:52:49 am
Oh god,  ::)
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: trevor perry on May 23, 2009, 08:02:32 am
had an intresting chat today a company near me lost a contract £50k
let 2/3 workers go they have set up as competion god £50k thats a lot of brass
  if they have let 3 workers go on a £50k contract that means each worker was covering just over £16k a year after running costs holidays with pay etc he must of only been paying them about £240 a week and making hardly any profit from the job i think he is probably better of without the job.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: Oakley Windows on May 23, 2009, 09:43:37 am
Oh god,  ::)

:D :D :D :D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ronnie paton on May 23, 2009, 09:46:13 am
that also presumes they wer floating to work and could clean it by just looking st it. ;D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: Moderator David@stives on May 23, 2009, 10:36:55 am
Expenses include
Accountant
Advertising
Bank Charges
Clothing
equipment
Liability insurance
Phone /internet
Motor Expenses
post/stationary

subscription
Training
Debts written off
Depreciation
cost of finance
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: ftp on May 23, 2009, 02:23:37 pm
Wages, holidays etc.
I understand where you are coming from Dave, but me as a sole trader can withstand substancially lower daily income. So to me an expected wage of close to £300 per day is fairly excessive in my eyes. I can survive happily on much less and most of the time do.
So, when I see extortionate estimates on here my eyebrows hit the ceiling so to speak. Kind of puts me off employing to be honest. Maybe the guys who have invested so heavily need a massive daily wage? Maybe i'm one of the lucky few but I doubt it.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: cozy on May 23, 2009, 02:49:01 pm
Expenses include
Accountant
Advertising
Bank Charges
Clothing
equipment
Liability insurance
Phone /internet
Motor Expenses
post/stationary

subscription
Training
Debts written off
Depreciation
cost of finance

Yes Dave, but some of those aren't effected if you employ. e.g. Accountant advertising.

Or have I misread something? I have employed twice in the past and it was not very easy to run. The Gov't over here have crap laws on employment and some workers play it to their advantage every chance they get.

If you have worked out the costs of an employee too closely, then if they are sick or injured and off work you quickly lose any advantage and start to lose maney fast.

By the way, I recon my average wage is about 80,000 a month ( If it doesn't snow, that is ) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: wfp master on May 23, 2009, 02:57:03 pm
This topic should be banned ! >:( ;)
i agree you dont ask questions like that its called being a nosey b****d. >:(
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: alanwilson on May 23, 2009, 03:10:53 pm
Expenses include
Accountant £300
Advertising £0
Bank Charges £0
Clothing £100
equipment £500
Liability insurance £250
Phone /internet £50
Motor Expenses £250/month = £3000 yr
post/stationary £100

subscription - to what exactly
Training - nope, don't need it
Debts written off - haven't got any
Depreciation - per van est £2000/yr
cost of finance - no finance

total running cost (not incl wages) £6300

so if I did not employ then my realistic running costs would be about 6 to 6.5k over a 46week working year = £147/week max

so for a sole trader earning in the region of £25/hr and completing 25hrs work per week (again with domestic window cleaning weather has a big part to play in this) = £625

so £625 - £147 = £478/week x 44 = £21k a year. pre-tax profit.

gross turnover = £27.5k

if you employ then obviously you need to add wages, el, sick pay etc to this
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: Moderator David@stives on May 23, 2009, 04:26:00 pm
The expenses put up relate to a sole trader,
 I left out the employment expenses.

Like i said earlier, your true wage is what it says on your tax return.

Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: alanwilson on May 23, 2009, 04:43:40 pm
yes dave so how come with a turnover of £50k you say you would be doing well to see pre-tax profits of £30k??

I can assure you that as an employer of 2 men ( I know, huge business and all that) that there is no way any business could operate on such huge costs before wages.

we work on the 3 times rule, basically this means for a member of staff to justify his wage, he needs to bring in 3 times what he gets paid. Basically one third is his wages, one third for costs and the last third goes to me.

most of our work is commercial (about 85%) and I clean the residential on my own.  The commercial can be done in any weather and is.  Also we operate on a 36hr week, I still have to do the residential work after that so all in I work about 46/47hrs per week, however this is easily done as we have 6am starts Mon/Tue/Wed and normally don't finish until around 6 or just after.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: dai on May 23, 2009, 07:12:50 pm
If I earn over £500 by Thursday, then Friday doesn't get done. £150 is a good day for me, but my running costs are a lot less than some others. Bare in mind I am an O.A.P, have no debts, and my pension comes on top of what I earn.
I do see some prices quoted on here as totally unrealistic, but hey!, if they can get it, good luck to them.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: Moderator David@stives on May 23, 2009, 10:44:10 pm
alan

I operate on about 40% net profit margin

I get to keep about 40p in the pound before depreciation and cost of finance

When i was a sole trader it was about 60%
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: Clive McDonald on May 23, 2009, 11:00:44 pm
An old jewish market trader explained retail to me. I never forgot.

Takings must be(at least) ten times rent. Stock is five tenths and expenses another tenth.This gives a net of three tenths.

As regards what the proper model is for window cleaning i'm not sure, but Alan Wilsons three times rule may be close.
Title: Re: So ........ the average wage
Post by: alanwilson on May 24, 2009, 12:17:43 am
slumpbuster - you know it!

A net of three tenths is the golden rule of profit margin for about 90% of successful businesses. 

Think about it this way - a decent window cleaner doing commercial work (so no 'not todays' and 'rain' stoppages) will clean £900 per week (based on run of the mill pricing of £30 per hour).  So if he works 36hrs per week and loses 5 hrs of that to lunch then he will have done around £930. We'll use £900 as a guide.

Assuming van operating costs of £150 (upper limit) per week,

£900 - £150 = £750.

Now if I were to pay my staff one third of turnover that would be £900 / 3 = £300 per week.

So if you take £300 from £750 you will be left with £450 for yourself - however, who on here would work for £300 a week?  Not many I'm sure, so in order to keep my staff happy I need to pay them more than £300, this I can do because unlike most other businesses I don't have large retail premises and sales staff to pay for, I have myself, my son and my staff.

So to sum it all up by keeping overheads reasonably low, I can safely pay my staff well over 33% turnover. 

Do I have to?  NO

Is it worth paying them more?  Yes, they aren't any worse off than if they had their own window cleaning round by the time they set the round up, buy a van and equipment and everything else that comes along with it.

I don't make much from each staff member but that is the way I like it, they get paid well, are happy with work, and I have a much more sustainable and secure business.

So my advice to anyone considering employing - be prepared to pay more than the usual £60 a day, anyone worth keeping will demand considerably more than that, and deservedly so.