Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: cozy on May 09, 2009, 10:50:16 am
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So we are gonna get this every day now. WFP is better than ladders, blah, blah,...No, ladders are better, blah, blah, blah.
This is getting silly.
I lose customers nearly every month in Afghanistan, I don't post it in here.
If guys want to use WFP then good luck. To bring it up every day is bordering on snobbery. It's the same as all these "I won't get out of bed for less than 200 quid" brigade.
I can see the answers coming already, "Only wanted to say what a shame it is", yeah right but the thread gets highjacked and away it goes into WFP is the best thing since sliced bread.
Some WFP guys need to stop and think why it is that EVERYONE isn't using it.
Horses for courses,but if I was ever in a position where I wouldn't know how to clean insides because I couldn't do trad then I wouldn't come on here and post garbage like "Trad is for old fashioned losers".
Some of the blokes on here are shouting the odds about how fantastic WFP is and on their next post they are asking all sorts of questions about how to fix this or that as they can't get out to earn a crust because they have no plan B.
We all live in the same world, things are dangerous enough without having "Ladders are dangerous so go WFP" rammed down your neck all the time.
Don't forget people, ONLY use ladders as a last resort, they are really really dangerous.
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Cozy
I have split the post, I want to keep the other post for paying respects to the family.
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OK, no probs
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I agree
It's boring, very, very boring ::) ::) ::) ::)
Giving some people a brush & stick is like giving the (previously unknown) security man his uniform & badge!
I think some need a reality check to realise how irrelevant & un-important they actually are!
WFP IS NOT A TOTAL SOLUTION & THE QUICKER THE ELITE REALISE THIS THE BETTER. ;)
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Is it a case Cozy ? no its just a part of it, the other reason for me is that it earns me more money and is easier.Work smarter not harder. 8)
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Yes Jeff, That's why YOU use it, that's why I would change if it had more pros than cons for me. This post wasn't started by me, it was split fom another thread by Dave.
There are very good reasons for WFP but on the other thread it was starting to go down the "Holier than Thou" route.
It seems threads seem to get drawn off track and the odd few want to go "Hollywood" and blurt on about how it's the way forward etc etc.
We are all window cleaners. That's what we do. Nothing more, it's not as skilled and technical as some pretend it is. How long does it take to train a windy so that he can work most jobs alone? Not a 3 year course is it?
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We are all window cleaners. That's what we do. Nothing more, it's not as skilled and technical as some pretend it is. How long does it take to train a windy so that he can work most jobs alone? Not a 3 year course is it?
Training? Was ist training? I did a job 2 days ago, while I was doing outs the custy did ins....her result was no better no worse than I could have achieved...hate to say it she may have done 'em slightly better :(
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Yes Jeff, That's why YOU use it, that's why I would change if it had more pros than cons for me. This post wasn't started by me, it was split fom another thread by Dave.
There are very good reasons for WFP but on the other thread it was starting to go down the "Holier than Thou" route.
It seems threads seem to get drawn off track and the odd few want to go "Hollywood" and blurt on about how it's the way forward etc etc.
We are all window cleaners. That's what we do. Nothing more, it's not as skilled and technical as some pretend it is. How long does it take to train a windy so that he can work most jobs alone? Not a 3 year course is it?
There’s a huge difference in being an employed window cleaner & a self employed window cleaner.
Most on here say that it could take 3 to 5 years to have a decent window cleaning round, then start earning a decent profit and benefit from all your hard work and have real success. (That’s only if you are able to do this, not everybody can.)
All this takes longer than training for other trades.
If some window cleaners are able to earn £40k plus and you can’t, then maybe you should go and train to be a plumber, electrician or similar it would be a lot quicker for you.
What's that rubbish got to do with this topic?
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We are all window cleaners. That's what we do. Nothing more, it's not as skilled and technical as some pretend it is. How long does it take to train a windy so that he can work most jobs alone? Not a 3 year course is it?
You are right we are all window cleaners in some form or other and that has not changed for decades and decades. Whichever method you use there is skill involved. WFP is more technical than Trad, but still is not rocket science. What has changed (in the UK as I appreciate you are in Germany) is that window cleaning is not the "odd job" to make up your beer money type of work anymore. It is not hidden away anymore and is classed as a professional business.
Window Cleaning businesses whether they employ other or not, quite rightly should have to follow rules and regs and HSE matters. It is not a case of which method is better, but is a case of which method is safer, which conforms to regs etc etc. Accidents will happen, they do in every form of life, but this is no reason to take unfounded risks because "ah that's life" . I take it that you are Trad and that is fine if that suits you and I have no idea about the regs in Germany so cant comment on them. But just think on, If you were to come off your ladders and injure yourself so badly that you can't work for 6 months and it had been possible to do that job another safer way which allows you to carry on working, you may well think twice before climbing the rungs the next time :)
We operate both WFP and Trad methods. Trad is now for insides only and a few and I mean a few where wfp is not suited. When we carry out trad methods from a ladder we work as safely as possible, there is no compromise.
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Yes Jeff, That's why YOU use it, that's why I would change if it had more pros than cons for me. This post wasn't started by me, it was split fom another thread by Dave.
There are very good reasons for WFP but on the other thread it was starting to go down the "Holier than Thou" route.
It seems threads seem to get drawn off track and the odd few want to go "Hollywood" and blurt on about how it's the way forward etc etc.
We are all window cleaners. That's what we do. Nothing more, it's not as skilled and technical as some pretend it is. How long does it take to train a windy so that he can work most jobs alone? Not a 3 year course is it?
There’s a huge difference in being an employed window cleaner & a self employed window cleaner.
Most on here say that it could take 3 to 5 years to have a decent window cleaning round, then start earning a decent profit and benefit from all your hard work and have real success. (That’s only if you are able to do this, not everybody can.)
All this takes longer than training for other trades.
If some window cleaners are able to earn £40k plus and you can’t, then maybe you should go and train to be a plumber, electrician or similar it would be a lot quicker for you.
What's that rubbish got to do with this topic?
Cost of some of the equipment! It’s also a response to cozy post if you bothered to read it.
The only response here is you, as usual, letting us all know how very clever & hugely sucsessfull you are. You are the type the original post refferes to.
Why the heck would he want to go plumbing etc? just because he's trad? you can't be serious? Do you honestly think a trad window cleaner can't earn 40k? ???
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We are all window cleaners. That's what we do. Nothing more, it's not as skilled and technical as some pretend it is. How long does it take to train a windy so that he can work most jobs alone? Not a 3 year course is it?
You are right we are all window cleaners in some form or other and that has not changed for decades and decades. Whichever method you use there is skill involved. WFP is more technical than Trad, but still is not rocket science. What has changed (in the UK as I appreciate you are in Germany) is that window cleaning is not the "odd job" to make up your beer money type of work anymore. It is not hidden away anymore and is classed as a professional business.
Window Cleaning businesses whether they employ other or not, quite rightly should have to follow rules and regs and HSE matters. It is not a case of which method is better, but is a case of which method is safer, which conforms to regs etc etc. Accidents will happen, they do in every form of life, but this is no reason to take unfounded risks because "ah that's life" . I take it that you are Trad and that is fine if that suits you and I have no idea about the regs in Germany so cant comment on them. But just think on, If you were to come off your ladders and injure yourself so badly that you can't work for 6 months and it had been possible to do that job another safer way which allows you to carry on working, you may well think twice before climbing the rungs the next time :)
We operate both WFP and Trad methods. Trad is now for insides only and a few and I mean a few where wfp is not suited. When we carry out trad methods from a ladder we work as safely as possible, there is no compromise.
That's a good point Helen, but there we go again, what if I fall......
The thing is, everyone knows it's safer to work WFP but there are pros and cons. The point is exactly what just happend, Ewan proves the point I am trying to make, now we should be earning 40k and if we aren't WFP then it's because we haven't got the money blah blah blah.
You see what I mean? That's where the snobbery starts with rubbish like that.
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What are you stupid and a failure?
I said window cleaner, didn’t mention whether you decide to use traditional, wfp methods or both.
Just because some one takes up window cleaning doesn’t automatically means they are going to be successful at it, although I’m sure all will be able to clean windows, (because it’s not rocket science.)
So where is your relevence to the original post in all this? At what point did cozy ask about building a sucsessful business or even how long it would take? He made a point about training a window cleaner NOT building him a business. It may take someone 3 years to become a plumber etc. but that alone won't earn him a penny now will it? 3 years later he has to start building his business as a plumber. So, I can't see how you would think this could in any way shape or form be a quicker road to sucsess than window cleaning?
What is your point here apart from telling us (again) & (again) that not everyone can make it big?
Cozy makes the point of threads getting hijacked & (again) this is what you do in almost every case. Do you know of nothing else but business strategy? as you seem to be able to turn any topic into it!
As for me being stupid? ;D ;D ;D
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wot hapened when thay went from the old wash leater it wos same not every body changed over to the new fangeld sqegy did they and custy sade you carnt wash windows with that bit of ruber youl leve em all streky with that ????????????????/
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I would like to see the annual running costs for an average sized round on wfp.
The same for trad because I never had the overheads when working this way.
Scrims, rubbers and solution. A new ladder when needed.
We all harp on about speed and money urnt etc on wfp, but does that get wiped out with the running costs for gear etc.
Just a thought.
A mate of mine earns 35k consistently on trad and has hardly any of the running costs I have.
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wfp is safer we all know that,
Some dont use it some have tried and don't like it, what ever method is used: just be a safe guys and ladies (have to include Helen)!!.
over 95% of my work is wfp and I still do the odd trad job, was trad for years before wfp and did ok.
I don't want every window cleaner to go wfp, so to all you trad only cleaners ;)
I don't do snobbery, I don't think I could be one even if I tried.
is wfp safer yes, is trad more dangerous yes.
Does it affect my business if others are trad no.
Every window cleaner treats his/hers business in a different way and that is their business!!!!!!
Nice weather today ;D
Ian
Cozy are you trad only or both ?
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Try reading his post properly. ::)
No, just for once, why don't you see if you can indeed give the answer to the post. ;)
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wfp is safer we all know that,
Some dont use it some have tried and don't like it, what ever method is used: just be a safe guys and ladies (have to include Helen)!!.
Fanx :)
over 95% of my work is wfp and I still do the odd trad job, was trad for years before wfp and did ok.
Likewise
I don't want every window cleaner to go wfp, so to all you trad only cleaners ;)
Agree ;) ;)
I don't do snobbery, I don't think I could be one even if I tried.
We earn what we want to earn, we don't say how much that is our business no-ones elses
is wfp safer yes, is trad more dangerous yes.
Does it affect my business if others are trad no.
Agree
Every window cleaner treats his/hers business in a different way and that is their business!!!!!!
That's how it should be
Nice weather today ;D
Same here, typical indoors carpet cleaning today
Ian
Cozy are you trad only or both ?
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wfp is safer we all know that,
Some dont use it some have tried and don't like it, what ever method is used: just be a safe guys and ladies (have to include Helen)!!.
over 95% of my work is wfp and I still do the odd trad job, was trad for years before wfp and did ok.
I don't want every window cleaner to go wfp, so to all you trad only cleaners ;)
I don't do snobbery, I don't think I could be one even if I tried.
is wfp safer yes, is trad more dangerous yes.
Does it affect my business if others are trad no.
Every window cleaner treats his/hers business in a different way and that is their business!!!!!!
Nice weather today ;D
Ian
Cozy are you trad only or both ?
Nice post, you old diplomat. :D
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Hi WW, I'm trad mate but looking to go WFP on my Brit custies( about half my business),
I'm not trying to wind up the WFP people, I just get upset about some snobbery that tends to get dumped on here by well known people, if you know what I mean. Any new guys or people who read threads but don't post are put off giving worthwhile answers or comments by snobbish jibes against trad WC's.
I wish Dave had not split the original post, I can see it all falling on me now. I saw the original post being sidetracked and gowing down the wrong way.
Helen knows what I mean I think.
Tommy Jackson usually posts good answers but I think even he has misunderstood what I meant.
P.S. I'm getting tennis elbow typing all this. Can't even clean trad then ;D
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1000's of post are read on here for many reasons they do not post themselves, snobbery as you say, spelling is another, never puts tomy off and fair play to him, I am a little poor at grammer and spelling (getting better though).
I have thick skin to many years trad with top off :-X
the only thing that annoys me is when someone comments about others inabilty to spell or use the correct grammer, I class it as snobbery and bulling unless they are trying to help .
But apart from that I don't take it personally, it is good to read others comments something can be learnt from it.
No Idea what the point of this post was but hay ho and off for dinner I go :D
Ian
Helen your welcome ;)
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Sorry, applogies Cozy as you said it wasnt your posting. But it is interesting watching you sweat ;D
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I hope you haven't misunderstood me too, I said Tommy Jackson usually posts good answers but I think even he has misunderstood what I meant.
I'm not having a pop at Tommy
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Sorry, applogies Cozy as you said it wasnt your posting. But it is interesting watching you sweat ;D
GIT ;D
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I hope you haven't misunderstood me too, I said Tommy Jackson usually posts good answers but I think even he has misunderstood what I meant.
I'm not having a pop at Tommy
I never thought you did m8 ;) I was more pointing out why some people do not post, I think they should everyone has something they can bring to the table.
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Ewan, why is it whenever things 'kick off' on this forum you are always in the middle of it? Do you enjoy it ???
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sory but i wos on this bit of the post / Some WFP guys need to stop and think why it is that EVERYONE isn't using it.
PS i think youal find im not a snob
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Iam 60/40 traditional i like WFP it works well on some parts of my round but on other parts ladders are better and quicker if you use common sense when your working of ladders you wont have any problems its when you start to get careless accidents can happen.
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LOL, I’m not in the middle of them all.
I do think it’s good to look at the possibilities to improve my/your window cleaning, the only really way to do that is to entertain new ideas.
You will always get people stuck in there ways offering resistance only based on what they know or think they know, or taking offence because it challenges there understanding or just makes them feel uncomfortable.
I could give you a very simple hypothetical, but that would put me in the middle even more. ;D ;D
99.9% of us know what you know (& more), we just don't think that this knowlege is anything special or worth ramming down others throats every day.
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Why don't you open your own thread on this subject Ewan, then you can argue with yourself.
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He knows he wouldnt be by himself I try to help everybody, Squeaky was by far the hardest to change ;D
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Cozy...Look forward to you coming over and I'll let you drool over my set-up...perhaps if you're a good lad at making the tea and doing my poor mans work I'll let you use my backpack for a fee...You should know your place and stay there...!
Chaps..were all in the same game...just some strive for different things within it and outside of it...
Perhaps the owners of this site could make a division for both trad and wfp...it may help in that those with differing intrests and issues within the same industry could be better 'handled' by our community here?
Lets all hug and kiss...me first... :-* :-*
Dave.
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sory but i wos on this bit of the post / Some WFP guys need to stop and think why it is that EVERYONE isn't using it.
PS i think youal find im not a snob
i know youre not a snob Tomy :D
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We are all window cleaners. That's what we do. Nothing more, it's not as skilled and technical as some pretend it is. How long does it take to train a windy so that he can work most jobs alone? Not a 3 year course is it?
Training? Was ist training? I did a job 2 days ago, while I was doing outs the custy did ins....her result was no better no worse than I could have achieved...hate to say it she may have done 'em slightly better :(
sign her on ;D
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just recently I did a job where I had to go back on the ladder for a few windows that had to have an initial builders style clean, and it is only really when you go back and work off a ladder that you realise just how dangerous ladders are.
Some of the heights and risks I have taken in the past make me wince now when I think about it, but when you are using them all the time you become very blasé about it, how many of you will dangle a leg out when you are 30ft up as a counter balance when you are reaching just that little bit further rather than climbing back down the ladder to move it a few inches...and please don't tell me you never do it or haven't done it!
When you are up the top of a ladder cleaning a 6ft tall window you are on the last but one rung of the ladder, hell, often you can be stood on the very last rung of the ladder, balancing on the balls of your feet, virtually on tiptoe and gripping a bit of window frame between thumb and forefinger with one hand while the other hand is fully stretched out cleaning the top of the window....and that is just one example of high risk (not necessarily reckless risk either).
When we hear of someone dying as a result of falling off a ladder it simply highlights those dangers. But should ladders be banned outright?....of course not! You can't eliminate all risk after all and there are many occasions when using a ladder is the most practical method of working.
Elf & Safety can't simply turn around and ban ladders, there are tens of thousands of people in all manner of trades using them, for us window cleaners there is an alternative in most situations, and that of course is WFP, it doesn't eliminate ladders because there are too many occasions when they are the only reasonable option.
It's no good all you die hard ladder monkeys squawking though! WFP is fast becoming the industry standard for the cleaning of windows at height!! It does a good job (most of the time) and you can't plummet to your death with both feet on the ground! And of course it is also affordable.
There may be other health issues of course, RSI springs to mind and various other strain type injuries and it does carry far greater running costs, you also continue to need trad skills too and it also means a more complex business, not that the cleaning of windows will be any more complex or difficult of course but some ordinary Joe starting out with WFP will not make allowances for the increased running costs and he - or she - will equate the money they turn over to wages just as the majority of window cleaners have always done...a shame that...but there you go...
Viva la WFP! ;)
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you can see hes bin and dun sum un safe things in his time and sadley when trad that wos the norm
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One thing I dont understand is that most people say they have moved over for safety purposes but i see people trailing hoses down a street about 50 metres to do shop fronts, why arent these done trad, it must be quicker and safer,ive even seen this done during that cold spell we had and water freezing on floor, crazy.
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Probably they are the guys who can't do trad.
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Probably they are the guys who can't do trad.
anyone can clean windows which ever method its not rocket science ,its just some are better than others ;D
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im sory if any ones got the wrong i der about the safety i dident go WFP for other peps safety but my own safety , i kowe that may seme selfish , as for icey bits ido thow salt by shops
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I think its down to the window cleaners in the method he use's.
I personally prefer traditional but most jobs i do i do it with WFP only because its quicker.
For me safety does not come into in window cleaning has always been a dangerous job,
If you come into window cleaning you have to realise you could possibly get hurt or even worse.
You can reduce the risks in whatever method you use.
WFP has risks also, Like tripping over things which all WFP chaps will do at some time.
Also electrocution i think would be a higher risk than with ladder.
We all just need to take a bit of care.