Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: PaulTh on April 28, 2009, 12:28:09 pm
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seems theres a lot of WFP users trying to get the message out to the world or at least Europe that ladders are banned and customers have no choice but to use their new fangled gadgets,this will probably have an effect on trad window cleaners trying to build up work as a lie told often enough tends to become believed as the truth so try and get your facts right guys before you try and line your pockets to the detriment of trad window cleaners.
To clarify the situation HSE is not attempting to ban ladders or stepladders, but ladders should not be the automatic first choice of access. They should only be used after a suitable assessment of the alternatives and the prevailing site conditions. The selection process for access equipment is coming under increasing scrutiny at HSE inspections. This guidance clarifies that for short duration work like window cleaning, provided a number of well-recognised precautions are taken, ladders will remain a common tool for many jobs.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_cleaner
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Wikipedia the font of all truth.
Get over it Ladders are Banned!!
;D
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hmmm I am doing a diploma of Higher education at the mo,,,, The university says wikipedia is bannned as it is a social site note a information sight,,,, 2005 HSE regs stae that basically ladders should only be used by exception ....that is why i will be using WFP system from day one
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bending the truth??? fall off your ladder, and try claiming on your insurance. when they tell you that you shouldn't have been using ladders in the first place,.. tell them that they're bending the truth and see how far it gets you!!
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ladders are gone i used them for 13 years and have been ussing the pole now for a year and half looking back how primative ladders were
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My understanding is that it's OK to use ladders provided you don't have WFPs. If you have WFPs then you should only use ladders in exceptional circumstances. A typical HSE fudge.
From a personal point of view I think any serious window cleaner should be using a WFP setup. It's far safer, quicker and does a better job of the windows.
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Not having WFP isn't an excuse. If the technology exists and is reasonably affordable, then the HSE say anyone in the business should invest as soon as possible.
If you're in the business and can't afford a basic DIY trolley/ backpack (£500 or less) then you really should give up and get a real job!! ;)
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The HSE are actually very specific when it comes to ladder use and window cleaning. They say that ladders should only be used if a safer alternative (WFP, platform, scaffold) is not viable for some reason. They also state that not being able to afford a WFP or not owning a WFP system is not valid reason for using a ladder.
Personally I made the change about 8-9 years ago, before any such rulings were in place. I made this decision for my own safety on the commercial work I was doing. I now look at ladders as a very antiquated and crude method of access. :)
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Oh no! I'm illigal. Anyone want to by my rounds? I need to sell them before I get arrested for Trad W/Cing.
All 6 weekly, easy access (even for losers that use primitive stuff like ladders).All the houses are so small that real W/C's (WFP) can clean them apparently in under 4 minutes!!!! Not bad at an average price of 12 quid, Also after sales fun, the successful buyer can come on this forum and shout about hourly rates of over a hundred quid an hour (prividing he/she does every house in 4 to 5 minutes), must be easy for a pro.
Any takers?
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14799.0;id=6446;image)
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I began wfp 'cos I hated ladders. Funny thing is, I was up them today for two jobs - getting cement off a pane and scrubbing a conservatory roof.
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Also, as far as I know, not affording a WFP system is not an excuse for not using it as the safer alternative to ladders.
(Imagine a gas fitter saying he's not going to get corgi* registered as he can't afford it!)
*Or GAS SAFE
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Fall off and then get back to us,i don`t who in there right mind wants to use them anyway you must be stupid not mad.
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I think HSE have given a little le way as you are allowed to use a ladder on your own as long as the job is not for more than 15 mins at a time. eoe.
Still need to do a risk ass anyway.
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It would be fine if WFP was a total solution but it's not & is far from it. There are many windows & whole premises that WFP is not at all suitable to use on & for many differing reasons. Although over the last couple of years suitability has been helped by brush & pole developements there will always remain many WFP un-friendly properties & these are the type of property where I earn my best wages! ;) Trad for trad money! :-*
WFP for 5 years & still love trad. Not disadvantaged by a fear of ladders, when I see ladders I see pound signs!! ;D
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thay shud be risc asesed when ever you move the lader from one window to the next one this s from a co that runs lader safety traning . and all your laders shud have a tag on them with the dates of when they wor cheked ,and that is 6 muthly, so hands up if yours ant :-[ :-[ :-[
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seems theres a lot of WFP users trying to get the message out to the world or at least Europe that ladders are banned and customers have no choice but to use their new fangled gadgets,this will probably have an effect on trad window cleaners trying to build up work as a lie told often enough tends to become believed as the truth so try and get your facts right guys before you try and line your pockets to the detriment of trad window cleaners.
To clarify the situation HSE is not attempting to ban ladders or stepladders, but ladders should not be the automatic first choice of access. They should only be used after a suitable assessment of the alternatives and the prevailing site conditions. The selection process for access equipment is coming under increasing scrutiny at HSE inspections. This guidance clarifies that for short duration work like window cleaning, provided a number of well-recognised precautions are taken, ladders will remain a common tool for many jobs.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_cleaner
I'm surprised that people are saying they are banned. However, if you were to go to the letter of the law in using a ladder, it would be a lot slower than it once was. Ladders aren't banned but the circumstances in which they may be used are more strictly regulated as are the ways they are used. The exact rules are a bit ambiguous though.
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It won`t be long all i`ll have is a telescopic ladder in the back for the odd window when i have to go from flat roof to upper flat roof,if i can`t pole it i don`t really want to do it.I have some really good what used to be trad jobs which i`ve since converted to WFP,i`m not doing hardly anything traditional anymore it just seems to take to long.Obviously insides and shops but why would any WC want to go up and down a ladder all the time could someone please inform me i did it for 15yrs and had enough,it dosen`t make you anymore of a man because you use a ladder.
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I think people need to speak to the people local to them, just because one person has said it doesnt mean a whole forum has, ive had custys say this to me but ive told them there not banned.
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so how many have ther ladders taged ?????????????/
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so how many have ther ladders taged ?????????????/
i havnt ,
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i ant aming this at any one in pertikuler . if i wos to look at all the ladders in the town how many will be taged ther not going to be many
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What's the law for painters and decorators or satellite dish installers, aerial fitters - don't they spend longer up a ladder for each particular job?
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What's the law for painters and decorators or satellite dish installers, aerial fitters - don't they spend longer up a ladder for each particular job?
they install dishes that low round here they must use ladders just steps ;D ;D
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What's the law for painters and decorators or satellite dish installers, aerial fitters - don't they spend longer up a ladder for each particular job?
For them there is no "Practicable alternative" (Yet) so if they tag their ladders, use all necessary precautions (Ladder stabilisers, stand-offs etc) they are still working within the law as it stands at the moment.
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WFP is as usless as a dingy with a hole when it comes to removing cement, mastic, grease, paint spots, mineral deposits etc etc, perhaps we should be telling the HSE this if he thinks WFP is the perfect window cleaning tool!!!
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add egg to that list too
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When I posted the pics from a house on 1 of my rounds a couple of days ago, most of the prices were approx 9 to 10 quid. Some guys reconed they could do this house in about 10 to 15 minutes. So it seems if I take 15 minutes to clean it and a WFP guy with setting up and packing away is only about 5 minutes faster, then what's the difference in a day if I work about 4 hours? 30 minutes? Who cares?
I intend to nip over to holland and "run" a day with Pingu to see if it's what I can use. The problem with my rounds is this:
I have compact rounds of sqúaddie houses in Germany. If enough of my custies don't like WFP I can't just canvass some other area like you guys in UK can. So it's a risk I will have to take if I go WFP.
I don't need ladders for German custies because they are all cleaned from the inside, (windows ALL open inwards, what a silly idea eh?) so I don't need WFP to replace ladders.
I have had my ladder slip from underneath me once in 20 years, twisted my ankle. I was new to the game and have learned to be more carefull since then.
I know everyone can charge what they like in this business, however, you will be cutting your own throat if you did a job twice as fast for half the price.
Might be worth remembering that IMO.
Because I generally work 4 to 4 and a half hours a day I don't feel knackered at the days end.
I'll get my coat shall I? ;)
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sat men anker ther ladders to the wall and use standof device as do the the bill bord posers just have a look , and the rest shud as shud window cleaners , how many buileders use scafilldeng when we kowe thay shud ,rownd this way ther wer 17 in cort in a clamp down
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I been thinking about dumping the ladders as the law of averages says i'll come a cropper at some point, either that or my knees are gonna be screwed in the next 10-15 years!! So was thinking of going WFP but worried about losing customers especially in current climate. I do about £200 per day 8.30-5.30 doing it traditionally, what could I do ££££ wise with a WFP you guys?
Have given serious thought about changing but wondered:
How you clean the windows that people leave open at the top during the day, especially as (hopefully!!!) the good weather will be upon us soon?
Although most of my custys are UPVC i still have about 25-30% that have powder coated metal frames, metal frames, wooden frames, and crittle windows. Are windows like this still able to be cleaned or will I have to seriously consider binning them? I 've worked bloody hard building this up so it's a big step.
Would more than appreciate some good honest feedback here from you WFP'ers.
Cheers.
Neil
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I been thinking about dumping the ladders as the law of averages says i'll come a cropper at some point, either that or my knees are gonna be screwed in the next 10-15 years!! So was thinking of going WFP but worried about losing customers especially in current climate. I do about £200 per day 8.30-5.30 doing it traditionally, what could I do ££££ wise with a WFP you guys?
Have given serious thought about changing but wondered:
How you clean the windows that people leave open at the top during the day, especially as (hopefully!!!) the good weather will be upon us soon?
Although most of my custys are UPVC i still have about 25-30% that have powder coated metal frames, metal frames, wooden frames, and crittle windows. Are windows like this still able to be cleaned or will I have to seriously consider binning them? I 've worked bloody hard building this up so it's a big step.
Would more than appreciate some good honest feedback here from you WFP'ers.
Cheers.
Neil
[/quotte}
just change, take the plunge i did Aand i would not look back, WFP is not quite as wonderful as somee wwould say but it does generally do a good job and as long as your regular they should be quite easy to clean even the metal frames (after a few cleans), its so nice knowing your not going to work and today could be that unlucky day, you will loose some work but i honestly dont think you would loose that much i didnt.
some people are just that stuck in their ways they will just not give it a chance even if their windows are spotless
kris
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Neil,
A well put question, but you really need to put that in a different post or start a new topic as this thread is about WFP and HSE.
I am sure many will reply to you on this thread, but that will hijack it away from it's initial thrust.
And other posters; please keep your replies pertinent to the thread, this is potentially a very argumentative thread So I'll be watching this one closely, over a page of replies already deleted.
Ian
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Fair Play. I'll start it off as a main topic. Apologies :'(
Neil.
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Thanks Neil ;)
Ian
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awww i want to read the deleted replies lol, i had my tongue firmly in cheek as i made the first post as i was sure it would stir up a hornets nest and hopefully reeducate the window cleaners who are feeding the public false information,although it seems from some posts that certain window cleaners know more about this law than the people who made it and the people who enforce it(funny that).I agree that a WFP system has a great many benefits but as i only have a few customers at the moment i wouldnt say it good business sense to plough money into buying a system untill i have enough work,it was just that while out canvassing a few people i had got talking to had said about ladders being banned and how a window cleaner had told them this,i just dont think it is right that window cleaners are spreading this about as it has potential to hurt trad cleaners buisiness potential.
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The law is the law,.. just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less the law!
Yes, I agree that this can hurt trad cleaners businesses, so my personal approach is to tell the cleaners not the custies. I only say it to custies when they ask or question my use of WFP, in which case I explain the legailites as part of my reason for switching.
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ive never said to one customer ladders are banned a there is always
a chance to you might have to use them at some point.i tell customers
the benefits of cleaning with wfp for them and the main one for myself
which is....it is safer.
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Ladders are not banned
Ladders can still be used where it is reasonably practicable.
Which means time over cost and effort.
If you still use ladders that is your choice and it isnt illegal.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm
Myth: HSE has banned stepladders
April 2007The reality
We have not banned stepladders - nor have we banned ladders! Despite this, the allegation is regularly repeated and some firms have fallen for the myth and acted upon it.
For straightforward, short duration work stepladders and ladders can be a good option, but you wouldn’t want to be wobbling about on them doing complex tasks for long periods. A large number of workers are seriously injured or killed using ladders and stepladders each year. So:
Yes - we want people to use the right equipment for the job.
Yes - there are some common-sense rules for using them safely.
But no - we have not banned them!
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm
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Nice one Dave a link straight from the horses mouth i think thats half the forum been put straight now.
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Ladders can still be used where it is reasonably practicable.
Which means time over cost and effort.
Is Cost an excuse when WFP is really quite cheap?
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Nice one Dave a link straight from the horses mouth i think thats half the forum been put straight now.
yes you are right i'm going back to ladders.... ::) my wife will understand, and i hate spending time at home anyhow :o
oh well it looks like i'l be working 20 more hours a week now i'm back on the ladders , but at least i'l lose the belly , and i like the thrill of knowing i can fall off and hurt myself...afterall if i were to fall and die , at least i have life insurance for my family....
i cant believe i didnt think of this earlier :o
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I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.
Dear Mr. Newcusty:-
MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-
If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-
A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?
B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.
C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?
D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?
E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)
In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"
If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?
I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...
It's the way you tell 'em! ;D
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I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.
Dear Mr. Newcusty:-
MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-
If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-
A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?
B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.
C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?
D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?
E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)
In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"
If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?
I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...
It's the way you tell 'em! ;D
Excelent bit of info,.. Mind if I copy that and use it on my website?
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Yes cost does come into the risk assessment.
If it costs you £10 in time and effort to clean a 50p window, then yes it is reasonably practicable to use a ladder.
The cheapest off the shelf professionaly fitted system is at least £2k, If you want crash tested then it is a lot more.
Not everyone does DIY
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Every last single post on this thread: Groundhog Day ::)
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its amusing to see those who swore blind they were banned are instead now more into health and safety than the health and safety ppl themselves lol i dont want to give anyone any ideas but maybe these same ppl will be lobbying the european parliament for an outright ban now.
Window Cleaning:its not rocket science stop trying to make out it is lol
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Yes cost does come into the risk assessment.
If it costs you £10 in time and effort to clean a 50p window, then yes it is reasonably practicable to use a ladder.
The cheapest off the shelf professionaly fitted system is at least £2k, If you want crash tested then it is a lot more.
Not everyone does DIY
I know what you're saying & you're spot on,.. but in this day and age, if you're in the business and working 3 days a week or more, I don't think 2K is any excuse for not having WFP. Many companies offer systems on a lease arrangement for as little as £10 per week, so regardless, cost is not an issue.
And as for the £10 to do a 50p window,.. I'd say (and I'm sure HSE would agree) windows should be priced accordingly as regards access & risk involved,.. is it worth risking a fall for just 50p??
Obviously some windows are not WFP friendly (Very few) and some area's have access restrictions that make WFP impossible,.. I'll gladly give you those,... but in reality more than 95% of all windows can be cleaned quickly and easily by WFP.
Going by current HSE rules, those windows that can be cleaned WFP should be cleaned WFP regardless, and the other 5% or less off ladders/cherry picker/scaffold. You're not doing the trad guys any favours by muddying that point.
Falls from ladders kill and maim ppl all the time,.. its time to stop taking chances and starting to "work smart".
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I will tell you where i stand in regards to using ladders.
I have been on a 5 Day IoSH managing safely course, All my staff have been on working at height and manual habdling courses, we are chas and safecontractor accredited.
Having spoken to all the above people, nowhere has anyone told me we cant clean windows off ladders even though it would be personal choice.
REALITY = In my business we do not clean off ladders, mainly because i dont want to scrape one of my employees off the floor, we do use ladders but only for access as there is invariably no other means to get on a flat roof etc.
We do not use ladders for window cleaning because we can't , we dont because we won't.
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I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.
Dear Mr. Newcusty:-
MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-
If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-
A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?
B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.
C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?
D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?
E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)
In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"
If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?
I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...
It's the way you tell 'em! ;D
Excelent bit of info,.. Mind if I copy that and use it on my website?
By all means.
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Ladders are banned, there use is now prohibited.
(Which means you are banned from using them under certain circumstances)
Maybe you should get your facts right.
i use mine 7 hours a day,5 days a week,circumsrtance being i need to reach first floor windows ;D
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my ladder goes every where with me, always will. Don,t knock em.
There are many successful window cleaners who have been using ladders for years.
They have been and still are a cheap and easy way for people to start a business.
I will always defend my right to use them any time i like.
I rarely get the thing off the van these days. :)
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Ladders are not banned
Ladders can still be used where it is reasonably practicable.
Which means time over cost and effort.
If you still use ladders that is your choice and it isnt illegal.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm
Myth: HSE has banned stepladders
April 2007The reality
We have not banned stepladders - nor have we banned ladders! Despite this, the allegation is regularly repeated and some firms have fallen for the myth and acted upon it.
For straightforward, short duration work stepladders and ladders can be a good option, but you wouldn’t want to be wobbling about on them doing complex tasks for long periods. A large number of workers are seriously injured or killed using ladders and stepladders each year. So:
Yes - we want people to use the right equipment for the job.
Yes - there are some common-sense rules for using them safely.
But no - we have not banned them!
So Ewan, Dave Morris is talking rubbish? I bet you argue with your reflection in the mirror. ???
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Ladders are banned, there use is now prohibited.
(Which means you are banned from using them under certain circumstances)
Maybe you should get your facts right.
AHH, so they were banned at 6.51 pm but now they aren't, I see, silly me, I misunderstood ::)
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So ignore what you said at 6.51 then? ok
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I'd love to answer that Ewan, but I can't fart loud enough.
This forum is there to help eachother when we need help and also for a certain amount of good banter. You never seem to fit in to either. I know I will get into hot water with the Forum Mods so I'll close this pointless tit for tat with you and your posts(That I find really hard to understand).
Do me a favour Ewan, if you have an opinion, try and stick to it.
Now it's goodnight from me.
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When the working at heights legislation first came out I read "reasonably practicable" and immediately thought of armies of lawyers rubbing their hands together.
"Reasonably practicable" is a get out pure and simple, that phrase is used again and again throughout EEC regulations, I have seen it used for conservation projects, and even fisheries regulations.
Dave Morris is spot on as usual, and until I can levitate onto a flat roof, I have no choice or other "reasonably practicable" method of gaining access other than using my ladder.
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I don't lead with a ladder discussion but if a prospect asks I have this home made flyer to hand.
Dear Mr. Newcusty:-
MalcGold window cleaning welcomes you as a new customer and we hope you don't mind a word about safety:-
If your window cleaner falls from his/her ladder on your property and injures himself or damages your (eg) vehicle is it?:-
A) His problem - surely he carried out correct risk assessment procedures beforehand?
B) Your problem - you should know whether he can use a ladder on your property for cleaning windows or not.
C) His insurer's problem (if he has any) - but will they pay out?
D) Your insurer's problem - but will they pay out?
E) Who knows until it goes to court? (With all the attendant hassle beforehand)
In all honesty as your window cleaner I would say "E" above - so I personally follow HSE guidelines and choose what I believe to be the safest method to clean your windows. I believe the safest method for your property is a Waterfed Pole System. I know my insurer is aware I use the system and the first question in the HSE guidelines for window cleaning about ladder access is "Can the work be done from the ground (eg WFP)"
If a ladder-using window cleaner should approach you and say that his method is perfectly ok to use then perhaps you could put the above questions to him and gauge his response?
I used this on one "blow-hard" fella out canvassing three months ago and left it with him - three days later he phoned and asked me to do his windows. He seems happy so far ...
It's the way you tell 'em! ;D
I dont mean to be overly pedantic Malc, but you say that you use this home made flyer, but in the flyer it states that " you believe the safest way for your property is wfp " how do you know? did you inspect the property and then drive home and print up this flyer specially for this house?
Surely every property is different. Perhaps a phrase like "In my experience most properties are ideally suited to wfp"
I like the intention in the flyer but if it was presented to me at my home I would take it for what it is ....a sales gimmick.
I am not pro wfp or trad I use both nearly every day as I do mewp's there is a place for all useful equipment within the HSE laws.
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PaulTh, i was gonna quote your posts in this reply, but they were to long a read before it got to my bit.
So, what, who, where are you on about? I realised the why when i read you just have a few customers and probably dreaming of getting wfp.
It's a bit general, a criticism. And i reckon based on other peoples reactions to your post rather than a genuine personal experience.
Get a free advert on yell.com. I've had a dozen good jobs from this in the last 6 weeks. It's free, so can only be good for your business. ;)
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To bluez:- "how do you know it's safer to use wfp on a particular property - I paraphrase - etc"
1. I only canvass properties that are IMO best suited to wfp (so only 99.9% IME ;D)
2. I never lead with my method of working
3. If the custy/prospect makes an issue of wfp (about 1% IME) I sometimes use this flyer.
4. The whole point I make is I don't know (as in a precedent set in law) the legalities but I believe I do and (to the custy) "do you want to take a chance?"
Tell me bluez, which properties are safer to clean using ladders - I'll then make sure I leave them for trad. users.
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I have read all the posts on this thread, and have found it very interesting. I have recently joined the forum, so a big 'Hi' to everyone.
I am a trad. window cleaner with 12 years experience. I have nothing against WFP, it's that I simply prefer to be 'up there' so I can see that I have done my job well enough to keep my customers happy. I spend as much, if not more time, checking my ladders are correctly positioned and safe before using them than I do cleaning the windows. You may say that trad. is slower and therefore less lucrative than WFP. In my case that is certainly true, but I believe it is more important to do the job thoroughly and well, rather than quickly and shoddily. By this I am not implying that anyone reading this is. If you can combine speed with genuine quality, then fair play to you. I may be behind the times in the view of some, but then I don't try to compete with anyone. As long as my customers are happy, and I earn enough, everyone's a winner aren't they?
John.
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I did the same thing, even carried a ladderm8rix around the house.
The thing is, you don't have to get up right to the glass to know you've done a good job. It will come with experience, and time.
wfp is the way to go, and when you are finally using it, then you will start to dislike using ladders more and more.
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my Gripe wasnt with anyone in this forum it was just in general and to try and educate window cleaners that ladders are not banned if however i encounter this propoganda in future when canvassing i will come up with a couple of reasons not to go with wfp for the customer for instance "its not very green is it? using a bathtub of water to wash your house windows? or let them know that even though wfp does the job in half the time you will find they probably charge you almost double the price lol so therefore ripping you off 3 times the cost of your windows etc lol fight fire with fire i say.
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Paul I can understand your frustration, but two wrongs dont make a right.
Not all of us use 25 ltrs to clean 1 or 2 houses, that is an obscene waste of water. Not all charge more for using WFP, why should we when it's quicker.
So resist the urge to bend the truth.
I can never understand the antagonism between the two methods users.
There is place for both. Ladders aren't banned, and if I wasnt such a coward I would use them and save me hours refilling and making pure water. Having said that i'd work longer hours, so it counter balances.
But my own non scientific risk assessment leads me to conclude that for the money at stake in cleaning windows death or serious injury are to be avoided at all costs.
I would never stoop to wrongly advising potential customers that ladders are banned, or that they might get sued if their WC falls. I tell them straight I use WFP for uppers only and trad lowers purely because I dont want to fall off. They can take it or leave it, im not bothered, but those who go with it allways tell me their windows & frames are all cleaned to a high standard and their pleased with the results.
Lucky me ay!. I pass jobs to trad cleaners, trads pass jobs to me they cant do.
It's the way this should work isnt it?
Peace and love to all. ;D ;D
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yeah i know m8 i was just at the windup and youve hit the nail on the head its not about the different methods wfp is safer i totally agree,its about certain window cleaners(not all wfp users) "spiel" to gain customers to the detriment of new guys starting out with ladders,just keep the bs down a little lads theres plenty of work to go around.
spiel /spil, ʃpil/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [speel, shpeel] Show IPA Informal.
–noun 1. a usually high-flown talk or speech, esp. for the purpose of luring people to a movie, a sale, etc.; pitch.
–verb (used without object) 2. to speak extravagantly.
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my Gripe wasnt with anyone in this forum it was just in general and to try and educate window cleaners that ladders are not banned if however i encounter this propoganda in future when canvassing i will come up with a couple of reasons not to go with wfp for the customer for instance "its not very green is it? using a bathtub of water to wash your house windows? or let them know that even though wfp does the job in half the time you will find they probably charge you almost double the price lol so therefore ripping you off 3 times the cost of your windows etc lol fight fire with fire i say.
Think before you post Paul Th
First of all, on a regular clean of a basic semi I would use about 15 litres (ten minutes of scrubbing at 1.5 litres a minute) - And if I harvest water off of my roofs and use DI only that's pretty green isn't it?
How much water and electricity does a washing machine - from the mains supply - use to warm the water, clean and rinse soap filled cloths and applicator, say three times a week? What about the soapy water from your bucket that you chuck down the drain - how much cleaning does that need before it is potable again? Or do you throw it on the garden and damage grass, plants and worms?
And your assertions re: charging are a sweeping generalisation that may have no basis in fact.
Fight Fire with Fire, you say? Accuracy with Falsehood more like.
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To bluez:- "how do you know it's safer to use wfp on a particular property - I paraphrase - etc"
1. I only canvass properties that are IMO best suited to wfp (so only 99.9% IME ;D)2. I never lead with my method of working
3. If the custy/prospect makes an issue of wfp (about 1% IME) I sometimes use this flyer.
4. The whole point I make is I don't know (as in a precedent set in law) the legalities but I believe I do and (to the custy) "do you want to take a chance?"
Tell me bluez, which properties are safer to clean using ladders - I'll then make sure I leave them for trad. users.
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Fair enough Malc I can see the usefulness in these circumstanes. Can you see how it might feel a bit contrived to the customer?
Bear in mind that I do like the content just a bit unsure how it might be interpreted. I dont really understand the point in your last question , I dont mind if you leave them or not I am not advocating one method or another only pointing out how I believe producing this flyer will be pecieved.
I might be wrong..............I was once before, it was a long time ago though ;D
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I changed to wfp about 4 years ago i have no axe grind with either method but just point finger at wfp users saying ladders are banned is one sided. I've lost count the times ive heard trad w/c slating wfp without any experience of system. Most wfp users on this site have the benefit of starting trad and switching to wfp which in itself speaks volumes
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I changed to wfp about 4 years ago i have no axe grind with either method but just point finger at wfp users saying ladders are banned is one sided. I've lost count the times ive heard trad w/c slating wfp without any experience of system. Most wfp users on this site have the benefit of starting trad and switching to wfp which in itself speaks volumes
Good point and well made!
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm
Myth: HSE has banned stepladders
April 2007The reality
We have not banned stepladders - nor have we banned ladders! Despite this, the allegation is regularly repeated and some firms have fallen for the myth and acted upon it.
For straightforward, short duration work stepladders and ladders can be a good option, but you wouldn’t want to be wobbling about on them doing complex tasks for long periods. A large number of workers are seriously injured or killed using ladders and stepladders each year. So:
Yes - we want people to use the right equipment for the job.
Yes - there are some common-sense rules for using them safely.
But no - we have not banned them!
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For window cleaning IMO they should be banned,i know certain jobs in particular need them more but for cleaning windows these days you don`t need them.If certain windows don`t come up good with WFP customers will just have to accept that on the upstairs i would say the majority would,ladders are just to much like hard work now for me.
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Ewan, correct me if i'm wrong, but it only seemed five minutes ago you were advising someone of the way to use a stand off and a stabilising device, even telling them that's what you yourself used. So you use ladders then tell us they are banned?
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Think I'll look for another thread. :)
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i will never stop using ladders,and when someone works for me like tommorrow he is a self employed w/c short of work who has his own equitment which includes ladders,although i wouldnt use someone with a wfp set up unless they left it at home and brought some ladders with them ;D