Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Slash on April 09, 2009, 04:50:11 pm
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I have been WFP almost 3 years now and am getting some complaints about condensation between double glazing windows,they complain thats it's the WFP breaking the seal and causing the windows to be cloudy within the double glazing,two of my own windows have this problem but I use a Vikan brush, not a wire one! ???
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Some customers would blame WFP for global warming if they could.
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Personally, I don't think it's likely that you're to blame.
Double glazing doesn't last for ever and the quality of the units may differ.
How old are the units with the blown seals? I bet they're about 15 years old.
Point them in the direction of your local 'Window Doctor'; I've heard they're good (you can find them in the Yellow Pages). They'll remove the window, clean it up, replace the seals and put the window back in.
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There is now going to be storm of protests saying that wfp doesn't do this..."what about when it rains"? will surely be one of the catch-phrases ::)
Thing is that too many customers (and they're not ALL stupid) seem to be saying that the sudden deluge of water along with a scrubbing action is causing problems with the seal.
We all know that the actual seal is buried within the window frame so that technically the wfp water/scrubbing action shouldn't get anywhere near it to do damage. However I do windows that have never been wfp'ed and they also have condensation to the point of almost being frosted glass so water does eventually get to the seal and degrade it. Maybe wfp just speeds up this process.
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cheap windows
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several houses I do have this problem.
lot's of them already had these problems before I started cleaning their houses.
the way I see it is this:
there is no way a bit of pure water will CAUSE damage a seal on a dg unit.
however, if the seal is on it's way out or already blown, having more water in the area of the blown seal (albeit once a month or whatever), will probably cause the SYMPTOMS to become apparent more quickly than if the window was not cleaned wfp.
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Personally, I don't think it's likely that you're to blame.
Double glazing doesn't last for ever and the quality of the units may differ.
How old are the units with the blown seals? I bet they're about 15 years old.
Point them in the direction of your local 'Window Doctor'; I've heard they're good (you can find them in the Yellow Pages). They'll remove the window, clean it up, replace the seals and put the window back in.
exactly, ask them how long the guarantee was for? i bet its long past it.. nothing is made to last these days. just looking at you as an excuse and to probably pay via your insurance cover.. which wont be covered anyway..
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Traditional window cleaners come across this also.
They are trying it on.
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im trad and come across this all the time. on windows that have never been cleaned wfp.wouldnt say your to blame.just a case of seals breaking down over time.
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one o my custys windows have gone after 6 months, a downstairs window that i have cleaned trad 5 times since she has had them in, windows that dont get cleaned also do this...
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The units knackered mate tell them to ^%£$"!(*!!!!
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one o my custys windows have gone after 6 months, a downstairs window that i have cleaned trad 5 times since she has had them in, windows that dont get cleaned also do this...
This is a good marketing ploy to get 'em to be more regular...speak!...tell me more...please!
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I am trad and I have some customers that have this on there window, it is the seal that is broken on the double glazing and allowing air to flow between the pains causing condensation as the cold air hits the warm glass, or vice versa. Unless the brush is breaking the seal but this is unlikely.
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I am trad and I have some customers that have this on there window, it is the seal that is broken on the double glazing and allowing air to flow between the pains causing condensation as the cold air hits the warm glass, or vice versa. Unless the brush is breaking the seal but this is unlikely.
The brush can't break the seal as the seal is buried in the frame. On veluxes it's a drop of moisture gets in and the sun heats the water up...becomes steam....condensation!
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The upvc frame surrounding the glass unit has a concealed drain which is routed into the plastic, so even if pure or rain water gets in it should drain away automatically.
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mmmmmmmmmmm how many windows have " gone misty" ? all off them if its down to you huh ?
most of the old double glazed windows contain a silica gel........moisture passes thru both panes of glass all of the time but if cheap windows have been installed as soon as the silica gel breaks down it cannot absorb anyore moisture........
but tell the cutomer if its you then ALL their windows would be misty wouldnt they? if they are still not happy let them get in touch with your insurer because theres no way on this planet your insurer would say your to blame because they would ask window installing companys to tell them why they have broke down..... ..also remember how long water fed poles have been around and how many water treatment companys sell the systems im sure they have done their homework and testing to find that if water fed poles did cause this problem surely they wouldnt be selling them?
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The upvc frame surrounding the glass unit has a concealed drain which is routed into the plastic, so even if pure or rain water gets in it should drain away automatically.
Thats one of the problems there.....
Some fitters leave out/can't be bothered to fit the packers that lift the glass unit above the drain, this results in the bottom of the glass unit being regularly wet and greatly increasing condensation problems. So its them not us ;D
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we live in on a very wet island
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Our own house windows are PVC and get washed about twice-a-month (I know I know; it's Wor Lass's fault; she makes me), and they're fine; no problems; they're about 3 years old.
But I've been told that double glazed units only have a life expectancy of 15 to 20 years.
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Even the very best sealed unit part will only ever have a maximum of 10 year warranty
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PJ is right, they are only ever guaranteed for about 10 years at the most, seals go after a while and it isn't down to just bad workmanship.
Hot-cold, expansion-contraction, vibration from traffic, houses are in a constant state of movement as they warm up and cool down and that can cause all manner of cracks to appear in the building, not just a blown seal in a double glazing unit!
But even when a seal does eventually go, water from the window cleaner, either trad or WFP will not get in through the seals, humid air will do so (drawn through as the window pane cools, creating a pressure difference between one side and the other) and when it does of course, condensation will also occur.
But try to explain that to a customer and they'll just think you are a right shyster :-\ :-\
Ian
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The action of "weathering" that is heat and cold, expansion and contraction, moves the sealed units about within the frames and eventually causes them to fail.
The vacuum within them then draws in moist air and this builds up as a fine mist, which is not noticed.
Then along comes wfp window cleaner spraying cold water on the glass, cooling the glass and causing the internal fine mist to condense on the internal glass surface.
Customer now notices the drops running down the glass and instantly concludes it is the window cleaner that has done it.
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The action of "weathering" that is heat and cold, expansion and contraction, moves the sealed units about within the frames and eventually causes them to fail.
The vacuum within them then draws in moist air and this builds up as a fine mist, which is not noticed.
Then along comes wfp window cleaner spraying cold water on the glass, cooling the glass and causing the internal fine mist to condense on the internal glass surface.
Customer now notices the drops running down the glass and instantly concludes it is the window cleaner that has done it.
Dead right mate, 1 of my custies works for Schüco. That's basicaly what happens and even Schüco only give a 10 year warranty.The worst units built by them are from end of the 80's to mid 90's.
I'm trad and have had cuties try to claim my sqeegy lives the little scratches you sometimes see in direct sunlight.
It's all our fault. honest ??? ???
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just looking at 1 of the first posts in this topic saying a bet ya they've been in for 15 years.
if they've been in for 10 years or less they still have a guarantee for seals etc av told a few customer about this and have had replacements free of charge not thru me damaging them just general wear.
i don't believe at all waterfed poleing could cause breaking seals tho.
ralph
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Bear in mind that the 10 year guarantee only applies to sealed units that have an assembled date stamped on the inner frame. Look at the inner frame through the glass if you can't see a date then they're not even covered for more than 1 year.
Aren't we a clever lot!
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Bear in mind that the 10 year guarantee only applies to sealed units that have an assembled date stamped on the inner frame. Look at the inner frame through the glass if you can't see a date then they're not even covered for more than 1 year.
Aren't we a clever lot!
I agree; nothing is clear cut with window guarantees; I'm looking at my FENSA guarantee for our windows (which isn't valid because we purchased this house after they were installed, and the previous occupants didn't pay for a transfer of the guarantee (it's in the small print)).
But on the letter I have; and it's not complete; I don't know where the whole document is (though I do have it), it says since the 1st April 2002 window and door installations have been subject to Local Authority Building Control and therefore any new installations need to be recorded either by .... etc blah blah.
So there's lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' when window guarantees are refered to. We have no guarantee, even though they were installed on the 5th Feb 2006.
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hi,i'm a window fitter during the week,i can explain/displel the myths regarding all this(its not wfp thats at fault)does anyone want to know?its a really lenthgy and boring answer if you have the time i'll try and explain it all -its time for me to give something back to this forum,it has helped me learn/earn so much in the past-just ask and i'll try to explain
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hi,i'm a window fitter during the week,i can explain/displel the myths regarding all this(its not wfp thats at fault)does anyone want to know?its a really lenthgy and boring answer if you have the time i'll try and explain it all -its time for me to give something back to this forum,it has helped me learn/earn so much in the past-just ask and i'll try to explain
Yes please, I'm interested in your explanation regarding misted/blown sealed window units.
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Taken from "The Window Man"
Some causes of premature failure of sealed units in PVC-U and Aluminium frames.
(Wooden frames have there own different problems).
PVC-U and Aluminium frames share similar frame arrangements:
The double glazed sealed unit should sit on glazing blocks, not directly on the frame itself, and both panes should be supported equally to prevent "slippage". These glazing blocks should not just be flat frame packers, but should be of the 'bridge' type, which means that water getting past the outer gaskets (as it does) will have a route to escape.
The bottom of the framework should be drained, either through holes "hidden" from view where any water runs out onto the cill, or visible "face" drainage.
The perimeter of the double glazing glass is well ventilated within the framework, as air enters and circulates from the drainage holes.
Clip in beads hold the double glazed glass sealed unit in the frame, preventing most water ingress, with a gasket or double sided tape the other side.
There are variations of the above, but that is the common principle.
When a double glazed sealed unit fails...
It is often said that a sealed unit "is blown" or "has gone misty", etc. This means that a fault, and it may only be a pinhole to start with, like a small puncture, has developed somewhere in its perimeter, and moisture is getting inside and between the two panes of glass. At different times of the year there will be different amounts of moisture in the atmosphere, and even in the hottest of balmy summer days the atmosphere that we breathe has a moisture content (humidity). With changes in sonic and atmospheric pressure being put upon the 'sealed' unit, moisture will be drawn in to mix with the otherwise arid interior of the unit through this breach. As temperatures change the moisture will condense into a liquid, which will continue to build up and up, as the liquid cannot escape anywhere as easily as the moisture that is being drawn in. I have seen sealed units that have had several inches of water laying at the bottom of them because the unit is acting like a tank! When sealed units are manufactured they are not designed to be taken apart again in the future, and therefore in practice they cannot be economically cleaned and put back together. When a sealed unit has failed it will need replacing, and the old glass is usually just scrapped.
The most common causes of premature failure in this type of frame are:
Not sealed correctly during manufacture:
If a sealed unit is not fully sealed all the way round, or not sealed properly, the unit is likely to fail within a relatively short time scale, and this will be normally within a year or so.
Not seated correctly on glazing blocks:
Difficult to be exact about to what extent this will contribute to premature failure, as each case will vary. Worst case would be if drainage was blocked altogether with even a small amount water getting in, which could reduce the life of a 'good' unit by around 50% in terms of its otherwise fair life expectancy, see below.
Exterior seals not fitting correctly, letting water in:
Again, similar to above, but if some of the water getting in contains washing up liquid or similar, then this will attack and degrade the perimeter seal, usually along the bottom edge. Anything stuck together will come apart quicker if immersed in water, and even quicker if that water contains a solvent or any oil based contaminants.
Flexing of the framework:
Very difficult to quantify, but any pressures put upon the sealed unit will not do it any good at all. Installations most at risk are those of the frames which go to make up the structure of a Conservatory, which should always be fully reinforced if PVC-U to help reduce flexing caused by wind loads.
MOST IMPORTANT:
1. One of the BIGGEST mistakes a window supplier or the fitter on site can make is in the use of solid 'flat' packers to sit the glass unit on. All sealed units NEED to be sitting on 'bridge' packers, that is so that any water ingress past the outside gasket will have ready access to egress out through the drainage system of the frame. The use of solid 'flat' packers, and often blocking drainage may well be the biggest single cause of premature sealed unit failure that we see today. Leaded designs let even more water past the outer gasket because of the bumps the lead causes on the outer pane of glass.
2. Any company that (wrongly) does not use bridge packers should at least make certain that their fitters are trained in the correct placement of their flat packers (I.E. inside of the drainage slots, and certainly not over them), AND should also engineer the frames so as to have a drainage slot in between the packers in the middle, as well as at each end.
In old aluminium frames the often used glazing block was with a soft packer, and very often not fitted properly at 90 degrees to the unit, (looked like a piece of 'Spanish'), and this has proved to be a disaster, as the unit will inevitably fail prematurely due to the soft glazing packer pressing into the edge seal.
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you will have noticed this more since we had low low temperatures, the whole unit has took a battering i had 2 go within days of thawing 5 years old and south facing they will always go first
paul
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It doesn't matter how the windows are cleaned. Sealed units only have a limited life. The glass has to be loose enough to allow it to expand and contract. Over a period of time that continual movement ( albeit microscopic) wears the rubber seals. The seals also harden with age and lose their grip.
A combination of these two factors causes the seals to blow. Then the gas inside the window, nitrogen in most instances, escapes when the windows get hot and the gas expands. As the temperature drops the gas contracts and air is drawn in. The moisture in the air forms as condensation as the process has begun.
The units are very cheap and quick to replace. You would be amazed.
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I've take most info and put it in a letter that I give my customers if they mention it.
Re : Broken down double glazed sealed units:
When a double glazed sealed unit fails...
It is often said that a sealed unit "is blown" or "has gone misty", etc. This means that a fault,
and it may only be a pinhole to start with, like a small puncture, has developed
somewhere in its perimeter, and moisture is getting inside and between the two panes of glass.
At different times of the year there will be different amounts of moisture in the
atmosphere, and even in the hottest of balmy summer days the atmosphere that we
breathe has a moisture content (humidity). With changes in sonic and atmospheric
pressure being put upon the 'sealed' unit, moisture will be drawn in to mix with the
otherwise arid interior of the unit through this breach. As temperatures change the
moisture will condense into a liquid, which will continue to build up and up, as the liquid
cannot escape anywhere as easily as the moisture that is being drawn in.
When sealed units are manufactured they are not designed to be taken apart again in
the future, and therefore in practice they cannot be economically cleaned and put back
together. When a sealed unit has failed it will need replacing, and the old glass is usually
just scrapped.
This almost always means little or no alteration or disruption to the framework, if it is
sound as the glass sealed unit is designed to be removable and replaceable.
Kind regards,
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if you say see my insurers the ins will blank them opening up the custy to sue you directly be like the catholic church explain NOTHING
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When I worked trad I cleaned stock houses for a building company, These were double glazed in wooden frames.
Some of these units had failed even before the houses were sold.
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As a rule:
Wooden framed sealed units are only guaranteed for 5 years
UPVC framed sealed units are guaranteed for 10 years.
If a customer complains their windows are misting or have blown seals, ask them how old their windows are and mention if they fall into the time frame mentioned above they should be able to have them replaced under the guarantee providing it's worth the paper it's printed on. Outside of this time frame and it's tough luck, they will have to put up with it or splash some cash to have them replaced. WFP won't damage the sealed units.