Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: lee_gundry on April 10, 2005, 12:54:23 pm
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having now been cleaning carpets & upholstery for 12 yrs,i belive the minimum standard of our cleaning equipment has changed.when i started the most of the units on the market were 50 psi pumps with one 3 stage vac,the top end units were 100psi pumps two 3 stage vacs.i belive that using a 100 psi pump is below the mimimum required pressure to clean most of the work that the average carpet cleaner will come accross.
also the heater units avalible when i started were ok at keeping the water temp constant, but no good at heating up the water to a required level.
what do you think is the minimum required spec of a machine should be for todays carpet cleaners.
Lee G
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Lee,
I agree, having upgraded to the Eclipse I realised 100psi is simply not good enough!! I still have my old machine and for convinience sake I used it to clean some rugs last week, the solution pressure was totally inadequate and made a simple job considerably harder than it would have been with a better machine.
As far as an actual minimum is concerned It would have to be 200psi and twin 3 stage vacs, a decent 2kw heater should be able to supply a constant 60-70 degrees which for me is the ideal in most cases.
Paul
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Well I hope you will both go back to those early customers, apologise and do a free reclean. ;) ;D
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400psi, 240OF and a big blower.
Oh yes and a big shiney t/m
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I totally agree with Dennis, if you can't clean a carpet with 100psi were we all doing our past customers a dis-service .
and when we were using a 100psi we would'nt have believed we could have got the carpet cleaner if we had a more powerfull machine,
so....
the natural progression from this is more power equals better cleaning
I'm sure you can see where I;m going with this ;) ;)
Mike
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Not better but a damn site easier!!!
Paul
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Lee,
For over 20 years we have heard the debate about blasting the soil away, More Power, More PSI, a must for the TM when you have distance from the truck to the head but for your average domestic, a standard HWE,you select the right solutions for the fabric and pre-vac, pre-spray, and agetate, simple
Barry
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If 100psi twin vac is not good enough it means the the machines sold by 4 major suppliers are no good
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Try using a more powerful machine and then go back to 100 psi :P It will drive you crazy!!
twin 3 stage vacuums are fine, I have no complaints with this aspect of my comanche, just the solution pressure.
Paul
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On the subject of psi how many of you chaps change the fan jets in your wands reguarly ? When i started i wasn't into equipment maintenance and my wand went ages before they were changed . The difference was amazing almost like a new pump had been fitted... i now renew them quite often.
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I think the twin 3 stage vacs is the minimum but i belive that 100 psi is below the minimum needed to do a true deep clean.
Lee G
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Lee,
The twin-vac 100psi level is something that I left behind many years ago, and would not wish to return.
However I do believe that given the skill and the time it is possible to produce similar levels of cleaning with such equipment.
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I started with a 50psi and 1 x 2stage vac, my cleaning was the Best in the World, or so I thought, then I moved onto 50psi and 2 x 2stage vac, then even better 50psi and 2 x 3stage vac and then and then I bought Mr Inghams Hybred Roots Blower, upto 1400psi and 100c heat if I want it and guess what??? My cleaning is still the best in the World!!
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ok you can get good results with a 50 psi pump given the time,so can a becks bissel.
what i am asking is what do you think that the minimum spec of a unit should be today.
i thought prochem would have brought out a portable with a larger pump.
a few years ago i was cleaning a nightclub using a extracta xl,i sprsprayed scrubbed & let dwell,started to wand the carpet,results were poor,so i attached my scrubba delux,results were a lot better,eventhough i was still using 100 psi the extra aggitation was what the cleaning task was missing.
Lee G
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Now I agree about a minimum requirement, but dependent on the task you are performing.
Years ago when I had a franchise I was doing hardtop pubs/clubs with bonnet buffing - bloody useless, took ages. That was when I wished I had HWE.
So you are selling the tm for a fleet of Becks Bissel machines? ;D
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Lee,
The point that I was making was that a machine is sometimes no better than its' operator.
If we are to determine a minimum standard for extraction machines that will produce an 'acceptable' result, I fell that it should be operator-matched. For example, an operator with poor wand technique might still produce an acceptable result if using a powerful TM, simply because he will have a degree of redundant power that will compensate for his own shortcomings. That is no to say that with a super-powered machine, operator skill is not important, simply that there will be power to 'waste'.
What I would suggest to a novice with a limited budget is that he minimum for a first purchase should be 2 x 3-stage vacs and 135psi pump (which will deliver about 90psi in use).
Starting with this set-up is likely to produce a better cleaner than starting with an entry-level TM because the machine, being less forgiving, will test the operator skill to a higher degree. If that operator is determined to be the best that he can be, the skill level may be honed to a higher degree.
Unfortunately I have known of an instance where a reasonably good portable operator moved to a TM and became somewhat sloppy in technique to the extent that the end result was to a lower standard than he produced with his portable. :(
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i think you have a good point there john.
a lot of people think that a tm is a miricle worker.
Lee G
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I struggled at first with my small TM, having used top portables for 23 years with excellent results. The reason was I couldnt get the solution metering right. I raise this point because, the results I used to attain with a portable (100 psi, twin 3 stage vacs) were no worse than I now attain with my TM. The solution leaving the wand jets now is much more diluted due to the extra pressure and hence the more water used. Of course the argument is that the extra pressure heat, etc. compensates for the lesser solution strengh. Obviously this doesnt come into it, if microsplitting.
The thing is, on results alone, i.e. cleaning appearance, I cant say they have improved for me, since changing to TM from portable, other parts of the job have (speed, faster drying etc) but not the clean appearance.
Though having less power, I think the portable job can be made to be first class, through harder work, technique and a more potent cleaning solution.
Everything together, of course, taking into account the quality of clean, speed of drying, speed of job etc. the TM wins everytime.
Lee is correct though, in that the goal posts are moving all the time. At the moment an absolute minimum I think is the 100 psi with twin 3 stage vacs, however with more and more TMs coming into service, I can see in the not too distant future (only a few years 3 or 4) that the TM will become the only acceptable norm for professional HWE cleaning. This is already so, with most present day TM owners.
Dave.
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How refreshing :D :D
Both Lee and Dave taking an unblinkered view.
Though I do not suggest that it is always the case, very often cleaners take the step of investing in a TM and from that moment adopt an elitist attitude that blinds them to the fact that similar results can be obtained with a machine not bolted to the van floor.
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Having taken the step to become t/m'ed I agree with John, a t/m does not nessasarly clean better, it does however clean an awful lot faster, and leave carpets drier. most t/m'ers are cleaners who are able to capitalise on this and fit more jobs in without killing themselves doing it.
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It is not all about PSI that the machine gives. A key factor is what the GPH of the pump is. Set a portable at 100PSI and run it next to a TM set at 100PSI. Look at the difference (HUGE), the water pressure on the TM will be alot stronger. This is all due to the fact that the TM is producing a much higher GPH compared to the portable.
Richie.
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Richie,
The scenario you paint is often the situation, however not all portables are equal.
With a Flojet 100psi pump the flow-rate is so low that once the trigger valve is opened the pressure will drop to <80psi (dependant upon jetting). With a better pump, however this does not apply. The pumps fitted to my portables have a flow-rate >2gpm, so with normal jetting can sustain both pressure and flow up to 350psi, which is a higher pressure than I normally use.
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Lee,
I was called in some time ago to inspect and quote for the repair of split and worn seams in an M&S store, both the general and district area managers who was there also asked me my oppinion on the cleanlyness of the carpet which had just been cleaned by a TM operator, I thought it was a poor overal job and to proove a point they selected a one square metre area and I pre-vaced, pre-sprayed and rotorvated, and extracted with a low acid rinse using one of their own vax machines and an upholstory tool, it looked as if I had inserted a one square metre brand new carpet, its not the machine thats in question , it has to be the method, I prefer to work up to a standard not down to a price.
Barry
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may sound a bit thick here
but cant see how a truck mount is so much faster than portable
u still have to set up
u still need water, so u fill at home, hose pipe ?
how longs that take.
access to property, have to park at distance from job
and start running houses in. part of your hose in a puddle or gravel, getting dirty, next job closer to property bedroom, u now running yer dirty hose, over nice ladys cream stairs carpet.
from getting my porti out van and set up to start any room in home 10 to 15 mins clean average room say 4m x 4m 45mins
pack up 10 to 15 mins total 1hr 15 mins .
before get asked pre - sprayed rinsed ect , dont vac ask customer when qoute. price on average £28 to £35 depending location ect.
not slating truck mounts they have there place, post on this topic that 3 to 4 years porti no longer used cant see it.
commercial work yes probably expect truck mount, and i would say far better tool for the job.
but your average guy wanting to earn £25000 a year for 30 to 35 hours work a week. porti , training , experience, everytime
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wether you fill up at the sink for your portable, or fill up your tank at home, both take time so you could say things are equal.
but...
when you fill up your bucket, you have to stand thier and watch it, when I fill my tank I leave it and do other things.
darren, if I want to earn £2500 I'll go work for Asda, I don't know any carpet cleaner who'd be happy with this amount (apart from begginers)
Mike
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Darran
you do yourself a diservice, most questions asked are those that most people have thought about but are to embarrassed to ask it themselves.
Barry
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mike i said £25000 a year for 30 hrs equals about £16 per hour
what asda do u work at then.
did not know they paid that well ;D
and i am not a newbie to cleaning just internet .
been cleaning over 16 years and my father before me.
and have not said what i earn, just the average guy in my opinion would be happy with above.
many thanks darren
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Darren
The T/M time saving advantages when cleaning a typical lounge are negligable, if any at all. If you were to clean a houseful of carpets, the time saving would improve but, IMO, not justify the capial outlay. However, when you get beyond the typical, just grubby, residential carpet and start getting high soil levels, trashed carpets, restaurants and licensed premises with all the associated issues, then a T/M will excell, perform the job much, much quicker and in many cases to a higher standard than your typical porty would achieve in just one visit.
In the real world, dirty hoses aren't an issue in the home. A couple of lengths of hose are reserved for use indoors and never touch the drive/pathway.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Darren, I know a nightstaff worker at asda who earns over 25k a year, (perhaps not £16 an hour but he has some great bonuses & benefits)
you must have a low opinion of your fellow carpet cleaners to think they would be happy with 25k, most of the ones I ever meet are gready gits who all aim for over 60k ;D ;D
I use a T/M and it is quicker even on domestics, but then I don't pre-test, pre-vac or any other off those fancy things, jus go in with the pipes blast out the dirt and do an average living room 20x14 in 15 mins @ £65ish I can arrive and be away in 30mins if I want, but I always try and empty the biscuit barrel before leaving ;)
Mike
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As a 100psi boy, with a 9mth old steampro, I am able to get very good results in my work.
I'm not saying I shouldn't have more power, but I'm not willing to change my porty after only 9mths!!
The point I make is that yes, we should keep up with technology but as John states, if the operator works well, i.e. within the cleaning pie, excellent results can be acheived with less power.
Never had a complaint or a call back yet ;)
Chris
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mike
u not listening to the point i am making.
well a would not be a happy customer if you flew in and out my home in 15 mins for £65, even if job looked okay.
we can all clean quick, but u have to let the customer think there getting value for money.
like i have said truck mounts have there place, and for me thats
commercial.
the cost of truck mount and van £25000 to £30000 no wonder u charge £65.
how many days do u have to work to pay for that ;D
be serious 30hours work for £25000 profit 60% nation would be happy with that, also have to look at quality of life, u would be getting.
darren
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Never thought i'd see Mike own up to being ''splash & dash''!!! ;D ;D
Martin
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I was only joking ::) ::) I don't really take 15mins more like 17 ;D ;D
darren, you say you would'nt pay me £65 for 15mins work, thats why I don't want you as a customer, what if your wife spilled some nail varnish on a new bedroom carpet would you pay me £65 to remove it? what if it only took me 15mins would you refuse to pay me?
you believe 'average' carpet cleaner would be happy earning £25,000, looks like I'm not 'average' 8)
Mike
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forgot to mention ;D ;D
a £30,000 truckmount & van package would cost me 3.5 hours a week to pay for over a 5 year lease period
Mike
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With Mike`s splash & dash attitude, you can understand why certain aspects and individuals within the trade are always frowed upon and the terms rogue traders and cowboys sort of comes to mind
Barry
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mike
14jobs @ 15min sorry 17 min a job x £65 equals £910 a week towards a truckmount i really dont want one ;D
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as for wife & nail varnish, be a little hard as he does not where nail varnish. ;)
darren
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I DON'T REALLY DO A LIVING ROOM IN 15MINS, IT WAS A JOKE!!!
some people have no sense of humour :) :)
darren I hope you're as good at carpet cleaning as your are at math ;)
Mike
ps are you saying you're a woman or a gay man?
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Mike
My missus says your in and out of our house in only 10 mins,job done ;D
Paul
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yes I am, but only because she's so ugly if i look at her for any longer that 10mins I'm violently sick ;D ;D
Mike
ps; I also hear your mammas so fat, when she lays face down on the bed she burns her bum on the lightbulb :D
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Paul, I'm sorry, those comments were totally uncalled for. I apologies ;)
Mike
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I do believe we've all got Mike on the defensive for once. ;D ;D
Martin
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Martin
it looks like we have for once ;D
Mike
A little strong for even your sense of humour :o
Paul ;)
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mike nothing wrong with my cleaning or maths
u said 15 mins to do job @ £65
3.5 hours theres 14 fifteen mins in 3.5 hours
times your £65
equals amount, u should look at your own maths.
not slate your cleaning as i dont know you, and would not be
fair. but then again a have heard your ---- ;D
like to insult others take a look at your english
thanks for entertainment , darren
I DON'T REALLY DO A LIVING ROOM IN 15MINS, IT WAS A JOKE!!!
some people have no sense of humour :) :)
darren I hope you're as good at carpet cleaning as your are at math ;)
Mike
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Darren
Dont get wound up by Mike mate.He just likes to throw a spanner in every now and again..
He is straight to the point and doesn't suffer fools gladly ( he will never be a politition).
However a wealth of experience and offers value to the forum IMO ;)
Paul
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Thanks Paul ;)
Darren, nice to see you had the sense to edit out half of the 22 grammatical & spelling mistakes in your post, you would have looked a right idiot pointing out my 1 spelling mistake with so many in your text.
might be worth editing again and finishing the job ;D ;D
Mike
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Priceless.
Dave
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mike u have more than one
wifes a teacher do u want me to send you some home work
;D
spelling mistakes in your last post slagging me again.
never said my spelling ect was perfect.
all u seem to want to do is criticise anyone elses opinion.
truckmounts are poop ;D mr splash & dash.