Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: traps7 on March 14, 2009, 12:07:56 pm
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Hi guys. After 17 years trad I want to switch to wfp. After looking at Ionics prices and a replacement van I'm sure as a handy DIY'er I can build my own. I've tried the search on this site and various other websites for information but I still have a load of questions.
I'm a one man band living in North Somerset so my water is very hard. I'm thinking of a static RO system in my garage as opposed to a van mount but could someone explain the pros and cons of each? freezing etc? I was also thinking of replacing my 500 weight Escort van with maybe a Vauxhall Combo or Transit Connect as I believe there respective weight limits to be 800 and 900kg and I know it's roughly 1 litre to 1kg. I was thinking anything bigger (i.e Transit size) would for me on my own be overkill. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking of a 1000 litre tank in my garage and maybe a 3 or 400 litre baffled tank in the van. I'd still buy poles etc depending on advice from the major manufacturers. I still dont know exactly the parts or names of them that i need so please correct me if I'm wrong.
I was thinking of a 4040 ro system from somewhere like www.surecleansystems.com as apposed to some of their other RO units as i read the output was better but i dont understand why some other units have 3 smaller ro units as apposed to one long one. Surely the long one is better than 3 short? And are there different types of membranes and if so why? I'm not on a water meter so as much as i care for the enviroment effficiency is not really a concern.
Then do I need a sediment filter and carbon filter with housings, a DI vessel for the resin, tds meters and all the various tubing and connections?
Also I suppose a transfer pump with big bore hose if i do a static system, a 12v 100psi pump in the van, leisure battery hopefilly charging from the vehicle alternator and Im sure a few other things I've forgot.
My cousin has a pro5 static so has been of some help and a friend has experience in RO systems from marine fish so he has been helpful too.
I realise this is the future and don't want to get left behind and this seems a great way to begin to maybe expand. I cannot really afford to go the ionics or other manufactures route as well as buying a newer vehicle for what basically seems a ro unit, some filters, tubing and a couple of water tanks.
Sorry this is all a jumbled mess but I had to get it all out else my head is gonna explode!
Any advice or corrections would be very much appreciated. Thanks.
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Go for it mate
you will not regret it.
Loads of info on here
and looks like you've done some homework.
If you want to have a chat and pick my brains?
Give me a call
Numbers on my sites.
p.s.
not while man u are on the box though ;D
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you seem to know a lot already. would you keep us informed as how you get on? best of luck.
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got a handheld tds meter for sale 10 pluss postage, jonisonvespa@yahoo.co.uk
you will save youself a fortune, buy second hand ebay and here in the classified
work out how much water you want per day, roughly 3 bed semi 20 ltr or less
if you dont want to grow keep tank to min to reduce costs ie diesel.
dont rush into it, do your research especially on ro, id go for a ro-man 300gpd, look at the on going costs ie filters,
its so easy
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im building my own van system for vuaxhall combo, got my stuff from varitech should be here on wednesday .
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you do seem to have a fair understanding already. You did confuse a couple of issues.
All you need for a van mount is a tank,pump, varistream, reel, pole.
600l is a good size, some scudo/experts have 900kg
Water production is a seperate issue.
To produce water in your garage 4040 plus a di vessel. (you can get away with cheaper and inferior ie 300gpd ro)
Find a good supplier and they will advise you. Cleantech are good, so are gardiners and others.
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I thought when people refered to a van mount system they meant they produced the water in the van. i.e had the RO etc in the van. Is that not right? Does it just refer to carrying it in a vehicle baffled tank as apposed to a trolley system or trailer?
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I'm 99% domestic with the odd commercial thrown in, use around 300ltrs per day, around 15-20 houses. semi's and detached. So this set up suits me.
IMO the best way is to produce the water in the Garage/Shed then transfer to van. All your water is being made while you are out working. Come home fill van. RO safer during winter months. Personally I can't see any advantages in having all the kit in the van unless you don't have a Garage or Shed.
My set up is:
1000 IBC with 300gpd RO with RO booster pump. Raised the IBC on pallets so the water gravity feeds to the van tank. (No need for transfer pump). My water is only 110 tds so the 300gpd is adequate. not sure how they perform in hard water area's
Citroen Dispatch with 400 flat tank, 11ltr DI, for final polish of water. (My RO water comes out at 000 tds so no real need for DI but if you ever need to top up away from home you can then make pure water on demand)
100psi pump and varistream controller with 80 amp leisure battery (No split relay). 100 mtrs 8mm hose. and a selection of poles.
The van is ideal for domestic rounds, in and out of small avenues/cul-de-sacs etc. Plenty of room for adding more equipment. I also have a Trolley, Backpack and other stuff for other cleaning services. Plus 3 seats, they always come in handy.
Wayne
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One of the most difficult things to know in advance is how much water you will use on an average day.
Guys use anything from 250 (they probably trad downstairs) to 800 litres or more if large commercial.
Personally I would not have anything smaller than a 500 litre tank and ideal would be 650 ltres (I have 600l in a dispatch which suits me very well, my useage varies from 350 to 550l per day, only very ocassionaly could do with a little more).
If the majority of work is monthly you use less water, if 6 or 8 weeks you tend to use a bit more.
Also is useful to know what your water pressure is, to work out if you will need a booster pump for RO or can just rely on the mains pressure.
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Thanks for the help so far guys.
I'm 90% domestic and work on a 6 week cycle. Commercial are on varying cycles.
Pittmonkey, I did wonder about that with van size, i.e. getting in and out of small spaces and cul-de-sacs. But on the other hand I notice on my cousins Vauxhall Combo setup it's on it's limit length ways to get poles in and out with heads on. I can't remember his exact pole sizes though. But he's mainly domestic too.
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Poles are no problem in the Dispatch.
I made 3 pole holders from std drain pipes. They are held at the rear of the van on a cross beam then go through to the storage rack above the drivers position. I dont have a bulk head but if you did you could still cut the diameter of the pipe from the bulk head and slide them through.
Been looking at the Merlin RO's this morning for a mate £250 from WCW up to 750 GDP = 2.100 litres. So more than enough. If I was buying an RO again I would go for the Merlin. It states you dont need a booster pump, weather anyone can verify this it would be helpful.
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Poles are no problem in the Dispatch.
I made 3 pole holders from std drain pipes. They are held at the rear of the van on a cross beam then go through to the storage rack above the drivers position. I dont have a bulk head but if you did you could still cut the diameter of the pipe from the bulk head and slide them through.
Been looking at the Merlin RO's this morning for a mate £250 from WCW up to 750 GDP = 2.100 litres. So more than enough. If I was buying an RO again I would go for the Merlin. It states you dont need a booster pump, weather anyone can verify this it would be helpful.
I would be surprised if a merlin did make 2.100l a day without a booster pump, you do not need a booster pump on ro's but if you have low tap pressure your tds out will be higher and production slower
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So which RO unit would you recomend?
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So which RO unit would you recomend?
A merlin or 300gpd would do you, if you have the funds I would always go for a 4040
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Ok thanks. The way i see it is its still going to be way cheaper and just as good as the ionics route.
So if say I bought a 4040 housing from say sureclean.com do I then need to buy the membrane too? I take it the housing doesn't come with the membrane in it ?
But then I take it I still need the individual pre filters and di unit etc.
The di unit's fine but i dont know which size i need and I'm finding it difficult to find the individual filters and the pictures give no idea of dimensions. And do they have different outputs? Does it matter?
Is this why people tend to go for something like a ro-man complete unit? because its that - complete?
Sorry for all the questions.
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Ok thanks. The way i see it is its still going to be way cheaper and just as good as the ionics route.
So if say I bought a 4040 housing from say sureclean.com do I then need to buy the membrane too? I take it the housing doesn't come with the membrane in it ?
But then I take it I still need the individual pre filters and di unit etc.
The di unit's fine but i dont know which size i need and I'm finding it difficult to find the individual filters and the pictures give no idea of dimensions. And do they have different outputs? Does it matter?
Is this why people tend to go for something like a ro-man complete unit? because its that - complete?
Sorry for all the questions.
Don't say sorry for asking a question you dont know the answer too, there are a few people I would recommend to use as I have personally used them myself, I have not used sureclean so cant comment on what they are selling, I would recommend, Purefreedom, Alex gardiner, gaps water none have let me down, also windowcleaningwarehouse.
Your welcome to give me a call on 01234 870 225 and have a chat.
Ian
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Every way is cheaper than going Ionic's Trap's :)
It's just a question of getting your water down to 000 tds and fitting the van safely. Some say or think it can only be done by spending 1000's. I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree.
BTW the Merlin:
It does say up to 720 gpd (US) = 2.725 ltrs / 24 = 113 ltrs ph. So in theory you should be able to make plenty of water in a 5- 6 hr run while out working.
While a 4040 is still way cheaper than having a branded system, I'm not sure if you really need to go so big. I think they also require a booster pump and are around £250.
Purefreedom are also doing a 450 gpd RO but again a booster pump would probably be needed.
I'm sure you've visited them but if not have a look here www.ro-man.com/shop/index.php/cPath/22
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Every way is cheaper than going Ionic's Trap's :)
It's just a question of getting your water down to 000 tds and fitting the van safely. Some say or think it can only be done by spending 1000's. I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree.
BTW the Merlin:
It does say up to 720 gpd (US) = 2.725 ltrs / 24 = 113 ltrs ph. So in theory you should be able to make plenty of water in a 5- 6 hr run while out working.
While a 4040 is still way cheaper than having a branded system, I'm not sure if you really need to go so big. I think they also require a booster pump and are around £250.
Purefreedom are also doing a 450 gpd RO but again a booster pump would probably be needed.
I'm sure you've visited them but if not have a look here www.ro-man.com/shop/index.php/cPath/22
I have 2 4040's and no booster pump as I blwew it up, so you dont have to have a booster pump ;), I will get round to buying another, but at the mo I dont need it, I have static set up 2000l of water a day is fine for now.
Us gallon is diffent to uk gallon isnt it ?
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US gallon = 3.785 ltrs
UK gallon = 4.546 ltrs
I think they all quote their spec in US gallons.
Just had a look at Gaps and you maybe right Ian. Some interesting stuff here www.gapswater.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_copy_of_Reverse_osmosis_kits.html
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US gallon = 3.785 ltrs
UK gallon = 4.546 ltrs
I think they all quote their spec in US gallons.
Just had a look at Gaps and you maybe right Ian. Some interesting stuff here www.gapswater.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_copy_of_Reverse_osmosis_kits.html
get it right at the start and you will not pay twice. I went straight for 4040 ro because i am expanding all the time it was over kill but hay I got my water quicker and saved myself time (which to me is limited) I started with a van mount as I had no staorage space due to where I live, after time I found space and trust me i am limited for space but now have 2 1000 ibcs on static, less hassle and less time consuming anyone that says different is lying or has not done it.
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Don't go for a merlin, water tds a little higher than other ROs and waste ratio is very high - which is a factor if you are or will be on a water meter.
Ro-man 300gpd unit is cheap and works well. If you are only running one van and use a 1000 litre static system (e.g. in garage) you should have no problem.
IMO Dispatch style van with 900kg payload is good because you can fit it with a 600 litre tank and can fit your poles inside.
Go for coloured water tanks as opposed to clear ones to prevent algae build up (though less of a factor if you work with van doors closed and static tank is not exposed to daylight).
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Ok I'm thinking of having 300 litres in the van maximum with 1000 litres static at home. After searching and speaking to people I think this will be adequate. I like that Gaps site. Think I might give them a ring. I just hate speaking to people on the phone. It just looks a lot simpler to have one big ro membrane than say 3 little ones. Less connections, changes etc. But maybe I'm wrong. I think though I need to know how much in litres or uk gallons I need it to comfortably produce a day to keep my static tank filled if say I was using 300 litres a day.
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Ok I'm thinking of having 300 litres in the van maximum with 1000 litres static at home. After searching and speaking to people I think this will be adequate. I like that Gaps site. Think I might give them a ring. I just hate speaking to people on the phone. It just looks a lot simpler to have one big ro membrane than say 3 little ones. Less connections, changes etc. But maybe I'm wrong. I think though I need to know how much in litres or uk gallons I need it to comfortably produce a day to keep my static tank filled if say I was using 300 litres a day.
I personally do not think 300l is big enough tank I would say 500 min 650 if you get a tranist or simalar, We use about 350/400 a day per van on a normal days work new cleans we can drain the 650l and also commercial work is also nearing 600l of water, it is better to have to much that to little as to little will cost you money, that goes back to what I said buy wrong buy twice
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traps 7 after yesterday there is no way i would give you good advice
hope to see you in champs we are bringing our own ref this time ;)
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I'm only on my own though and I'm thinking even if I did expand from a 300 litre and need a 500 litre tank, I think I could just come under the weight limit of say Vauxhall Combo (800kg max), operator, tools etc included and it would just be a case of fitting a new tank. I can't realistically see me expanding in regards to employees in the near future. And to be honest I don't know if I even want to. Also considering what was said earlier about parking etc in cul-de-sacs I think a Transit size van would be too much for me and for a newish one a lot dearer. VW Transporter would be nice but I can't afford a new enough one. I was thinking something like a three grand 05 plate Combo as a guestimate. At the moment I probably do something between 10-15 average size houses a day. Anyone else with similar work load think 300 litres would be enough? My work is close so at worst I could pop home for a refill if I occasionally went over, although I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. Someone else said about running the van tank through another di vessel so worst case you could fill up on site or have I misunderstood that bit?
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traps 7 after yesterday there is no way i would give you good advice
hope to see you in champs we are bringing our own ref this time ;)
Yeh you took a beating LOL but I think you may have the last laugh come May. 18 All.
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not if we lose form like when overmares scored or when forest beat us or when ian rush even started scoring im going to shut up now time to pray
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Tank size: Plan for your busiest day. You can always just half fill the tank on the other days, but if you go too small to start with and run out during a big job, you'll have to travel all the way home for a refill. Personally I'd recommend a 650 litre tank for a 1 man operation.
Reverse osmosis: Merlins are good IF you have decent water pressure, and IF you aren't on a water meter. Below 50psi they don't work as well, and the output TDS will rise rapidly, and the waste water ratio is VERY high on a Merlin,.. often 4 parts waste to 1 part pure. If you have low water pressure, a 20" RO with a low pressure membrane might be a better option. Arthur at surecleansystems.com is the man to talk to as he sells both, as well as many other RO's.
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pop over to the DIY WFP site / forum
e.mail for a link
diywfplink@yahoo.co.uk
my opinion ( and its been said many time by others in the past ) its easy to over buy ( be oversold ) and RO unit, you can allways upgrade a RO unit by adding another membrane, i use a 100 GPD RO unit and its fine, it runs 24 hours a day, you say you will have a 1000 L tank at home, thats 3 days water stored in the tank right from the word go, add to that water stored in your van tank, you will need your RO running 24 / 7 into that 1000 L tank, but thats not a issue, as i said, if you find your running short on water, add another membrane ( thus 200 L per day ), you could start off with a 200 or 300 GPD unit though and just let it run, so you will start the week with the van tank and home tank full
i have a 400 L tank in my van, and thats overkill ( its never got more than 300 L in it )
if i use 250 L a day i know ive earnt more than i aim to, normally 150 - 200 L a day is amount that leave my brush
its easy to get into the splash your water around and have the pump hammering away on full, why, really no need to have that much water used, so why use it ? ? ?
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Traps your practically there, 500l would be a good compromise in the van. I have 650 and haven't drained it yet (come close though). Despatch has 900kg load if it's an HDI, less if it's the normal turbo. Latest models carry even more.
DIY is laughably easy if you have a pinch of common sense. The only tricky bit is securing the tank to the chassis. Personally i'd go for a lay flat tank for diy or an upright if it was a pro installation, try and find a van with a steel bulkhead too. As for poles - buy the best you can possibly afford because that's your main tool.
300gpd is plenty for a sole trader and if your tap pressure is good you can run it through the night with no booster pump - you'll never need to produce water faster on your own so a 4040 is overkill but fine if you want it.
I wouldn't bother with a split relay if your round is compact - just charge the battery overnight.
Which town are you from?
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ftp I'm in Weston super Mare. So how do I find out my mains pressure? I was hoping that I could avoid a booster pump by just leaving it connected pretty much permanently with some sort of auto shut off or solenoid. Would that make sense?
And is a split relay for charging via the alternator? Why bother bringing a battery in every night when it could charge while the vehicle one is, or am I missing something?
Questions, questions.... I feel like Johnny 5 out of that film Short Circuit. Anyone see that? ...Input, Input.
I think my heads gonna explode soon!
Looking on the bright side, at least I can still clean trad until its all 100% installed and working. I don't suppose you need to switch overnight.
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I charge my battery in the van via a charger and extension lead. If your round is really compact you might not do the mileage to keep both batteries fully chaged (van and pump). Auto shut off can be fitted to your static dead easy. You need a guage to test your pressure. Gardiners lent me one when i started up (didn't buy a system from them but do purchase their poles) they are always very helpful. Your booster pump could always be purchased at a later date if you wanted. Most ro units come with a built in guage. Higher the pressure the more efficient your ro will be with lower tds generally speaking. Lower tds of course means your polishing resin will last longer too.
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matt have to agree with you i have 500ltr tank in van and rarely use it all, if your prices are right and dont have your pump to high then you will earn good money, its all experiance 9yrs wfp
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trapps
Talk to aurther in sure clean
good bloke and will not see you wrong.
only bought my full system off him about 1.5 months ago :) :) :)
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ftp I'm in Weston super Mare. So how do I find out my mains pressure? I was hoping that I could avoid a booster pump by just leaving it connected pretty much permanently with some sort of auto shut off or solenoid. Would that make sense?
Yes you can avoid a booster pump. But having one will be of great benefit.
It will almost double production time and the booster on my 300gpd gets me a tds of 7 before DI vessel. Without the booster my ro produces water at 28.
A booster pump is beneficial, but not essential.
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I built my own system into a vauxhall combo. Firstly the van. If you get the 1.7ltr diesel your payload is 600kg. If you get the 1300 diesel the payload is 1743kg.(thats the only difference, it wont affect the road tax ). In that van I put a 400ltr lay flat tank, which I bought from a place in hoddesdon. I bought the pump from ebay along with the microbore. I used hozelok hose trolleys and a 24' pole from gardiner poles. On the pole I had a trigger from kirby's(great triggers but the return springs keep breaking, and at 14.00 a set its a bit expensive). I bought my ro system from ro-man (4 stage + di ) and that pumps into a 1000ltr static tank that I bought from a place in bicester and they will deliver all round the country. This system used to do 10 -12 large 4 bed houses with conservatories and still have a hundred litres left.
I made a fair few mistakes- buying 1/2 inch hose that weighs a ton when its got water in ( most of the time ).I wouldnt have hozelok trollies, I would have gone for the metal ones, easier to rewind and the things stay in one piece). Hope this helps some. Any questions you can ring me on 07786 523226
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ftp I'm in Weston super Mare. So how do I find out my mains pressure? I was hoping that I could avoid a booster pump by just leaving it connected pretty much permanently with some sort of auto shut off or solenoid. Would that make sense?
Yes you can avoid a booster pump. But having one will be of great benefit.
It will almost double production time and the booster on my 300gpd gets me a tds of 7 before DI vessel. Without the booster my ro produces water at 28.
A booster pump is beneficial, but not essential.
Oh right, thanks. I didn't know it made a difference to tds reading. I just wanted to save on buying a pump and the running costs.
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I just want to get the expensive bits right for me personally. i.e. van, ro unit, and tank sizes. Thanks for all your help guys.
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ebay 250ltr ststem every thing you need.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WATER-FED-RO-SYSTEM-FOR-SALE_W0QQitemZ320350091079QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_HomeGarden_CLV_Cleaning_CA?hash=item320350091079&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1686%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
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pop over to the DIY WFP site / forum
e.mail for a link
diywfplink@yahoo.co.uk
my opinion ( and its been said many time by others in the past ) its easy to over buy ( be oversold ) and RO unit, you can allways upgrade a RO unit by adding another membrane, i use a 100 GPD RO unit and its fine, it runs 24 hours a day, you say you will have a 1000 L tank at home, thats 3 days water stored in the tank right from the word go, add to that water stored in your van tank, you will need your RO running 24 / 7 into that 1000 L tank, but thats not a issue, as i said, if you find your running short on water, add another membrane ( thus 200 L per day ), you could start off with a 200 or 300 GPD unit though and just let it run, so you will start the week with the van tank and home tank full
i have a 400 L tank in my van, and thats overkill ( its never got more than 300 L in it )
if i use 250 L a day i know ive earnt more than i aim to, normally 150 - 200 L a day is amount that leave my brush
its easy to get into the splash your water around and have the pump hammering away on full, why, really no need to have that much water used, so why use it ? ? ?
Matt, do you wfp downstairs windows or do them trad?
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pop over to the DIY WFP site / forum
e.mail for a link
diywfplink@yahoo.co.uk
my opinion ( and its been said many time by others in the past ) its easy to over buy ( be oversold ) and RO unit, you can allways upgrade a RO unit by adding another membrane, i use a 100 GPD RO unit and its fine, it runs 24 hours a day, you say you will have a 1000 L tank at home, thats 3 days water stored in the tank right from the word go, add to that water stored in your van tank, you will need your RO running 24 / 7 into that 1000 L tank, but thats not a issue, as i said, if you find your running short on water, add another membrane ( thus 200 L per day ), you could start off with a 200 or 300 GPD unit though and just let it run, so you will start the week with the van tank and home tank full
i have a 400 L tank in my van, and thats overkill ( its never got more than 300 L in it )
if i use 250 L a day i know ive earnt more than i aim to, normally 150 - 200 L a day is amount that leave my brush
its easy to get into the splash your water around and have the pump hammering away on full, why, really no need to have that much water used, so why use it ? ? ?
Matt, do you wfp downstairs windows or do them trad?
i used to trad downstairs and i would use about 100 - 125 L a day
for a while ive done all the windows, thus i use 150 - 200 L a day, i find downstairs uses less than up, i guess its because i can see the rinsing
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Most days I use 400 litres plus, but my work is largely on an 8 week cycle.
Also I suppose it depends on how long a day you work. Must make things more simple in using less water - smaller van etc.
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traps 7 if you are currently cleaning 10-15 houses per day you could expect to increase that to 20 or so once you get the hang of wfp.
This would cover the extra overheads/running costs of wfp and the extra profit would justify your investment. On the other hand you could just work less for same money.