Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: seandyer2003 on March 10, 2009, 04:26:26 pm
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It seems the £3 a house brigade are in commercial too, quoted a huge conservatory inside and out a few weeks back, you can see it here -
www.bents.co.uk
I quoted a very fair price and never heard anything back so i got in contact to see what went on and recieved a nice email
"Hi Sean,
Thanks for your email. Our existing window cleaner won the contract in the end, purely down to finance
Your quote was the most detailed and particularly tailored to our needs, thank you for the attention to detail that you gave, it was very much appreciated. I really don’t think there would have been anything else that you could have done to secure the deal to be honest. Yourself and the other contractors that I contacted came in mostly at the same price, our existing window cleaners price I really don’t think could have been matched at £x00.00.
If this wasn’t down to cost then I feel certain that it would have been Dolphin that would have got the deal, your professionalism was outstanding compared to the other companies, you emailed the quote speedily to me and followed it up, certainly the service that we here at Bents expect.
I have kept your details on file and in the future should an opportunity arise either we will contact you again.
Kindest regards and very best wishes"
But i couldnt understand how cleaners got away with such low price!!! Maybe your on here?? lol IN which case - HOW DO YOU MAKE MONEY HAHA
the guy was half my price??
Out of interest what you reckon for that in and out, once every 8 weeks and not including roof
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Why do people constantly come on here to moan about not winning contracts that they have quoted for?????
It's called business, that's the be all and end all, full stop!!
Just price better next time ;)
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Why do people constantly come on here to moan about not winning contracts that they have quoted for?????
It's called business, that's the be all and end all, full stop!!
Just price better next time ;)
I just wondered how someone can earn money at such daft prices, sorry - thought this place was about conversation, maybe none of us should say anything then it would be a right laugh on here??
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Out of interest what you reckon for that in and out, once every 8 weeks and not including roof
Are you talking trad or wfp?
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Sean,
Tthe Archer here mate,
what you need to understand, is there are some SO CALLED window cleaners around that are hopeless at cleaning windows that give good window cleaners a bad name.
They are prepared to pack in driving buses or warehouse work and try there hand at window cleaning.
Having a quick glance at that conservatory i would want atleast £500, simple as that.
I NEVER NEVER go in to win a contract, i price the contract to what i feel is the correct price.
Dont worry about other people who put in stupid prices, because i always say when i price a job, i am THE BEST window cleaner out there, and if they want me - they will pay...........
I am snowed under with work with my approach & confidence in backing up what i say.
Started carrying a bucket & mop aged 8 for my uncle & been running my own business 19 years so my outlook on window cleaning is similar to yours i would imagine,
Chris (Archer window cleaning) ;)
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whys your name chris and your forum name steve? ???
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I'm not THE BEST window cleaner...adequate is how I'd sum up my efforts.
But I'm cheap and nearly always get the work I'm quoting for and I too am snowed under.
Chris you're Fortnum & Masons and I'm Asda...but we both make money.
Happy days ;)
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£500???? Inside & Outside????
I wouldn't touch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sean,
Tthe Archer here mate,
what you need to understand, is there are some SO CALLED window cleaners around that are hopeless at cleaning windows that give good window cleaners a bad name.
They are prepared to pack in driving buses or warehouse work and try there hand at window cleaning.
Having a quick glance at that conservatory i would want atleast £500, simple as that.
I NEVER NEVER go in to win a contract, i price the contract to what i feel is the correct price.
Dont worry about other people who put in stupid prices, because i always say when i price a job, i am THE BEST window cleaner out there, and if they want me - they will pay...........
I am snowed under with work with my approach & confidence in backing up what i say.
Started carrying a bucket & mop aged 8 for my uncle & been running my own business 19 years so my outlook on window cleaning is similar to yours i would imagine,
Chris (Archer window cleaning) ;)
well i was pretty cuffed that when i got the email she was happy with the company... your price was similat to mine, plus access added. For inside, inside was to be done trad on scissor lift, and outside wfp..
Glad you doing well archer mate, wish i could say i was snowed under, whatever and however your marketing its working :)
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I'm not THE BEST window cleaner...adequate is how I'd sum up my efforts.
But I'm cheap and nearly always get the work I'm quoting for and I too am snowed under.
Chris you're Fortnum & Masons and I'm Asda...but we both make money.
Happy days ;)
Whose making more dosh though :)
My thought is im business to make PROFIT, and as much as possible otherwise id work for someone, its easy to fill your books with low prices, but i want a good round.. But im not knocking you simon, it works for you mate, our view of what we want is different is all :)
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£500???? Inside & Outside????
I wouldn't touch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Neither would i,blimey 500 sheets for that i don`t think so. ???
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let the guy have it he will regret it in the end and then start to miss it out or go off into the sun set then you will get the call
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I'm not THE BEST window cleaner...adequate is how I'd sum up my efforts.
But I'm cheap and nearly always get the work I'm quoting for and I too am snowed under.
Chris you're Fortnum & Masons and I'm Asda...but we both make money.
Happy days ;)
Whose making more dosh though :)
My thought is im business to make PROFIT, and as much as possible otherwise id work for someone, its easy to fill your books with low prices, but i want a good round.. But im not knocking you simon, it works for you mate, our view of what we want is different is all :)
When I say cheap I'm not talking stupid cheap...just pitching my quotes to get the work and keeping it.
I think the difference is that you look at it as a business whereas I look at it as a job that pays the bills with a bit over for holidays etc.
I don't employ..never have...never will.
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let the guy have it he will regret it in the end and then start to miss it out or go off into the sun set then you will get the call
No hes there regular cleaner who does the entrance, but they needed in their words "someone with specialized equipment" haha, o well!
Hope he has proper fully comp insurance as if one of those windows goes through Ouch - wouldnt want to see the price for replacing
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Theres no fool like a busy fool!! ... Simon!! ;)
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i would say he will be insured and proper.
now for the price i couldnt see a proper pic but if excess equipment is needed then even £500 is cheap.
maybe he changed the schedule to less regualar to make it within there budget?
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Theres no fool like a busy fool!! ... Simon!! ;)
Good to see you posting again Groundhog,show us another vid lol. ;D
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i would say he will be insured and proper.
now for the price i couldnt see a proper pic but if excess equipment is needed then even £500 is cheap.
maybe he changed the schedule to less regualar to make it within there budget?
A scissor i reckoned inside ronnie, but yeah 500 is cheap too, i did it for bit more plus access... figuring that after a few cleans it would be down to a day inside, and one out...
Plus money to get ipaf cert, insurances etc, list goes on... muppets
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Theres no fool like a busy fool!! ... Simon!! ;)
Sooner be busy and earn than over-price and not ;)
Anyway I'm happy so let me get on with it 8)
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I think you need to price just to earn your wage at the moment , I certainly do .
if you have spare capacity price to win the contract , there is no point spending the time and effort pricing a job if there is only a slight chance you may win
and when you do win it you can always sell it on at a later date when better things and times come along . there is a recession out there and prices matter to everyone at the moment
be competitive
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everyone prices their work according to their circumstances or goals, yet everyone who comes on here and gets undercut always calls the undercutter a cowboy, maybe they are maybe their not and are just willing to work for a lot less. I consider myself pretty low priced but have been undercut on many a contract some have come back because they are not happy with the service they where getting others havnt so i presume their new window cleaner is doing a decent job as said earlier it is just business and you have to price at what your willing to work for to do a good job.
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That was my point exactly, just because someone is cheaper than you it doesn't mean that they're cowboys; maybe they're just better at pricing than you!!
It's all well and good saying, " I have my prices, if they don't like it sod 'em ", but it doesn't pay the mortgage if you're always being undercut; and some people make it very easy to undercut them.
After 18 years I earn a very good living, window cleaning, carpet cleaning and day to day contract cleaning. I'm not the cheapest nor the most expensive, but if I quote a price I want to get the job. Having an over inflated price in my head and sticking to it cause " I'm the best and the best costs " is the very reason shops like Asda, Aldi etc take a bucket load of cash each week ........... people like value for money too!!!
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They at the very least have a positive opinion of yourself, you may end up being the winner in the end.
Well done for that.
Matt
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Pricing can be so subjective, everyone has a different idea of how it should be done and how much they should charge.
For me it has always been about working out what the average pace a window cleaner works at.
Many years ago when I first started I listened to a very experienced window cleaner, who had moved into other areas, including janitorial supplies.
One of the things he pointed out was with regards to the time it takes a window cleaner to clean an average casement window.
How long?
Well if you take an average casement window to be 3 panes of glass, one narrow opening light, another an opening window pane to the side of the narrow one and the final pane the one under the narrow opening light, about 3 or 4 ft tall and about 5ft wide.
.........90 seconds to clean, including any required detailing.
Think thats slow?
Try it, get the stop watch out and try it for yourself (trad mind!)
It's quicker than you think, and you need to be a fairly accomplished window cleaner to do so...to a high standard mind....
Anyway....You have your average for the average window unit.
By todays standard, where window cleaning is concerned the average turnover for a sole trader window cleaner according to the tax man is around 17k per year. Lop off 5k for overheads, and vehicle depreciation and running costs should be included, plus replacing vehicle about every 5 years (hence 5k) and you are down around 12k for a realistic income....not a great deal.
Once you also allow for setting up and putting away, travelling between accounts and so on, a reasonable target to aim for is about 3 standard semi's an hour.
You are also unlikely to actually spend more than 5 hours a day actually cleaning windows.
And don't forget to allow for holidays -4 or 5 weeks a year - weather affected days - probably 20 or more, not necessarily days off but days where you can't work a full day and those days when you just can't get motivated or other things interrupt your day and you begin to realise why perhaps that the average turnover is only around 17k.
But you know now what the average is, of time taken to clean a window and a house, and of potential turnover.
You can now work out what to price per unit (window) pricing then gets easier, you count up your units, allow for access and you have a consistent method for pricing.
Now you may want to turnover 25k or 35k, but if you want to be competitive and also to remain in business for any length of time then you have to be able to price sensibly.
Charging £20 per standard semi might make you good money (at the average of 3 an hour) but you are going to be at least twice the price of the average window cleaner.
Go in at a fiver and you are going to be half the price of Mr Average...
Neither way is a good way.
You need to compete with Mr Average.
The way you make your money is not to be Mr Average yourself, you don't clean 3 an hour, you aim for 4 or 5.
You become quick AND efficient at what you do.
Charge pennies and you have to go at a hell of a pace all the time and you are never going to make a really good income, and if you are working at the limit of your ability then your standard is going to be poor, you will skip detailing, rub a dry cloth over frosted glass, not bother with sills, take risks on ladders..I know, I've done it!
Why if I just place the ladder in the middle I can get both these windows in one go....all I have to do is dangle my one leg out at 90 degrees as a counter balance!
Running around like a headless chicken and panicking about the recession gets you nowhere...just a lot poorer if you start dropping your prices, and what happens when existing customers hear that you are pricing cheaper than before? Do you drop their prices accordingly just to keep them?
All of the above of course assumes you are trad as against WFP, you are going to be faster with WFP, especially with georgian, leaded and anything over 25ft, but you have far greater setup and running costs to factor in, ergo, your pricing structure needs to be very similar to when you were trad.
Many are constrained by the area in which they live and work, but regardless of where you live, if you are cheaper than everyone else then you are way too cheap!!!!
Ian
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i would say he will be insured and proper.
now for the price i couldnt see a proper pic but if excess equipment is needed then even £500 is cheap.
maybe he changed the schedule to less regualar to make it within there budget?
A scissor i reckoned inside ronnie, but yeah 500 is cheap too, i did it for bit more plus access... figuring that after a few cleans it would be down to a day inside, and one out...
Plus money to get ipaf cert, insurances etc, list goes on... muppets
don't use the "m" word, I got no end for using that one. It seems to be one of the worst words that can be used on here :D :D :D
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well i got away with it till you pointed out just now :) muppet :)
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By todays standard, where window cleaning is concerned the average turnover for a sole trader window cleaner according to the tax man is around 17k per year. Lop off 5k for overheads, and vehicle depreciation and running costs should be included, plus replacing vehicle about every 5 years (hence 5k) and you are down around 12k for a realistic income....not a great deal.
i am glad you said according to tax man its around 17k a year but what you havnt mentioned is a lot of window cleaners still dont declare all their earnings so are probably earning a lot more, also a lot of window cleaners are jehovahs witneses and only do window cleaning part time so they can go preaching in spare time these are supposed to declare all they earn but as said their earnings are for part time work.
17k a year working just 4 days a week works out at £81 a day and by all the posts on here even on the lowest price work more than this amount is being earned.
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well i got away with it till you pointed out just now :) muppet :)
how dare you, you have degraded your self with your muppet insult, so how how double dare you ;D
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Ian - are you sure that isn't 17k after costs?
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Nice email though, well done on that side.
Shows you might win future quotes purely on your professionlism (is that a word?) I won a contract over someone i know, i was more expensive, but i think my approach won it over.
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Yeah i was chuffed with that, as i wondered how i was percieved by the people i spoke too, i only met here for 10 mins too, and sent 2 emails so i did something right to be thought of so well :)
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Ian - are you sure that isn't 17k after costs?
Nope, its very roughly 17k turnover, not income after expenses!
Trevor,
Yep, agree with you that there is often a few bob of undeclared income, and I also agree that many can do far more than 17k and for myself, on any day where I am reasonably busy anything under £150 would be very disappointing, but I also have days where I'll only do half that...not counting those where I earn nothing of course!! :'(
But it is when you add all the days together at the end of the year, that is when you know what you are really earning, I know some may fiddle their earnings, but the majority of us are pretty honest.
I'm an experienced old pro now, I know how to run a business and over the years I've honed my round and my skills....but it all takes time.
But when pricing and working you just have to have a good system in place, and not just 'guess-timation'.
Those that go in too cheap undervalue themselves, you need to compete of course, especially if you are building your round, but there are other areas that are important, not just price.
Turn up to price up a job with a fag hanging out your mouth, greasy, untidy hair, scruffy appearance, unshaved and so on and you will struggle to get work period.
If you are WFP you could spend well over a grand on a single pole, 5k or more on a system, you just can't risk going in at cut throat prices.
If you want to be considered a professional then you have to know and understand your job inside out, and if you want to get good prices then you also need to 'exude' that professional air...as against the description of the scruff-bag I made earlier!
Ian
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this man talks and makes sense ;D
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If you are WFP you could spend well over a grand on a single pole, 5k or more on a system, you just can't risk going in at cut throat prices.
Ian
Thing is if somebody has just lashed out 5k on a system then they'll want to recoup their money asap and do this by putting in silly cheap quotes just to get the work. Not saying it's right but I can see the logic.
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Ian - are you sure that isn't 17k after costs?
Nope, its very roughly 17k turnover, not income after expenses!
Trevor,
Yep, agree with you that there is often a few bob of undeclared income, and I also agree that many can do far more than 17k and for myself, on any day where I am reasonably busy anything under £150 would be very disappointing, but I also have days where I'll only do half that...not counting those where I earn nothing of course!! :'(
But it is when you add all the days together at the end of the year, that is when you know what you are really earning, I know some may fiddle their earnings, but the majority of us are pretty honest.
I'm an experienced old pro now, I know how to run a business and over the years I've honed my round and my skills....but it all takes time.
But when pricing and working you just have to have a good system in place, and not just 'guess-timation'.
Those that go in too cheap undervalue themselves, you need to compete of course, especially if you are building your round, but there are other areas that are important, not just price.
Turn up to price up a job with a fag hanging out your mouth, greasy, untidy hair, scruffy appearance, unshaved and so on and you will struggle to get work period.
If you are WFP you could spend well over a grand on a single pole, 5k or more on a system, you just can't risk going in at cut throat prices.
If you want to be considered a professional then you have to know and understand your job inside out, and if you want to get good prices then you also need to 'exude' that professional air...as against the description of the scruff-bag I made earlier!
Ian
all the things you have said are good advice but in the real world this isnt always true, there are many large firms out there that quote absolute peanuts for jobs, their appearance is very proffesional fancy brochures, very well presented risk assessments and method statements, loads of certificates in training in fact more bulsh-t than you can fit on a shovel but when they are awarded the contract the workforce they send are on just above minimum wage and dont care a bit about the job they are doing.
i have a succesful business and have been doing it for 26 years and i am sorry to say a lot of the time contracts are awarded mainly on price so long as all other paperwork is in place.
a cant compete with firms like this but i also cant overvalue my services but i would expect my employees to be earning far more than the 12k average that you stated above.
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What a horrible job.
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That was my point exactly, just because someone is cheaper than you it doesn't mean that they're cowboys; maybe they're just better at pricing than you!!
So if I price 20 three bed houses at £25 each and get half of them thats £250. So lets say you price another 20 at £10 each and get them all, thats £200, and double the work!! Does that make you better at pricing? I think not!!! ;)
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It seems the £3 a house brigade are in commercial too, quoted a huge conservatory inside and out a few weeks back, you can see it here -
www.bents.co.uk
I quoted a very fair price and never heard anything back so i got in contact to see what went on and recieved a nice email
"Hi Sean,
Thanks for your email. Our existing window cleaner won the contract in the end, purely down to finance
Your quote was the most detailed and particularly tailored to our needs, thank you for the attention to detail that you gave, it was very much appreciated. I really don’t think there would have been anything else that you could have done to secure the deal to be honest. Yourself and the other contractors that I contacted came in mostly at the same price, our existing window cleaners price I really don’t think could have been matched at £x00.00.
If this wasn’t down to cost then I feel certain that it would have been Dolphin that would have got the deal, your professionalism was outstanding compared to the other companies, you emailed the quote speedily to me and followed it up, certainly the service that we here at Bents expect.
I have kept your details on file and in the future should an opportunity arise either we will contact you again.
Kindest regards and very best wishes"
But i couldnt understand how cleaners got away with such low price!!! Maybe your on here?? lol IN which case - HOW DO YOU MAKE MONEY HAHA
the guy was half my price??
Out of interest what you reckon for that in and out, once every 8 weeks and not including roof
I think the w/c who got the job... was obviously happy with the price!
Good on him!
Customer happy, he's happy, everyone should be happy for him!
I note only one person has had the guts to quote a price £500
NO-One else???
Why are people so scared to offer a quote ??? ??? ???
Your not going to get the job, it's already gone!
What price did you offer, now that it's immaterial ??? ??? ???
That's too big a job for me. :'(
I would need three others helping... and I would be looking for £1200.
Hopefully do it early morning!
There that didn't hurt now did it? ::) ???
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The reason I didnt put in an offer of a price was it wasnt entirely clear by the picture what it involved (size, access, difficulty-----horizontal cross beams inside?)
But the figure that jumped into my head at first glance was £650.
Ooooooo....that hurt. ;D
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Looking at that, and considering 1 day in & 1 day out (I reckon it might take an hour or 2 on a 3rd day finishing up too) add in scissor lift costs, IPAF training, etc etc,.. €900 + Vat would be my figure if it was quarterly,.. Maybe a bit less for 2 monthly,...
I would have tried to do a deal where the high internal glass wasn't cleaned as regular as it often is only a bit dusty and that's not visible from the ground. External and lower internal every 2 months, a full clean every 6 months and spread out the price,...
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i cannot see a proper pic either
BUT
i can see the front, i guess by the looks of its, its a big glass building ( so the rear will be the same )
1 day for the outsides with WFP
then they will do the lower bits inside everytime and the higher glass inside will get done every 6 months ) they might even use a dry brush on the higher insides to get rid of the cobwebs
500 quid doesnt look so bad now does it
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That was my point exactly, just because someone is cheaper than you it doesn't mean that they're cowboys; maybe they're just better at pricing than you!!
So if I price 20 three bed houses at £25 each and get half of them thats £250. So lets say you price another 20 at £10 each and get them all, thats £200, and double the work!! Does that make you better at pricing? I think not!!! ;)
Yeah but what if you and him were both competing for the same 20 houses? Here's the result:
Miscontractcleaner: 20 jobs and earns £200
Groundhog: Sweet Fanny Adams
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That was my point exactly, just because someone is cheaper than you it doesn't mean that they're cowboys; maybe they're just better at pricing than you!!
So if I price 20 three bed houses at £25 each and get half of them thats £250. So lets say you price another 20 at £10 each and get them all, thats £200, and double the work!! Does that make you better at pricing? I think not!!! ;)
Yeah but what if you and him were both competing for the same 20 houses? Here's the result:
Miscontractcleaner: 20 jobs and earns £200
Groundhog: Sweet Fanny Adams
And he would be welcome to them! I guarantee that I would find plenty of others willing to pay my prices!! I know this because I already have over 400 of them on my round!!!! And also just because someone is cheaper dosn't mean they will automatically get the work, earlier today I priced up 3 houses in a small cul de sac, they already had a window cleaner, but weren't happy with his work, a friend of theirs recommended me to them, I priced up each house at £25 (my min price) and I got all three, their now sacked cleaner used to charge them £10 each!!!! ;D Work smarter Simon, not harder!!!!! ;)
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that is the biggest job i have ever seen and i would not know how to price it, probably whoever came in very cheap doesn't know either.
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I wouldn't touch it. The hardest part for me would be the inside roof unless you have a scissor lift it could turn out to be a very tricky and time consuming job.
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Groundhog, are you still using a trolley and a Harris pole?
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Groundhog makes a good point - you have to work faster (and less thoroughly) at low prices. Some custies don't mind paying for quality and diligence.
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Are you less thorough on poorer priced jobs? I offer the same service on every job i do i.e. the best i can. Maybe i shouldn't.
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Are you less thorough on poorer priced jobs? I offer the same service on every job i do i.e. the best i can. Maybe i shouldn't.
No I'm not less thorough on my poorer priced jobs - none are that poor! The illustration showed pricing differences of £25 to £10 for the same property.
But... if I have a well priced job and the custy is in then I do a bit of "unnecessary extras" like wiping the cills with a towel at the end or the brasswork on a door, even tho' I know that they will dry perfectly clear.
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Yes it's a bloomin pain if they are in - you have to clean in slow motion. ;D
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Groundhog, are you still using a trolley and a Harris pole?
A trolley!??? You must be joking!!! I have a van mount, and a fantastic Harris pole!! ;D
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;) Lost another customer today... "Just a little note to say, your services are no longer required, due to my financial situation! ::)
I reckon she's been on this site, looked at this thread, worked out it's me and seen I am too expensive :o :o :o
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Plenty more were she came from!!! ;)
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That was my point exactly, just because someone is cheaper than you it doesn't mean that they're cowboys; maybe they're just better at pricing than you!!
So if I price 20 three bed houses at £25 each and get half of them thats £250. So lets say you price another 20 at £10 each and get them all, thats £200, and double the work!! Does that make you better at pricing? I think not!!! ;)
How close together will you get them though?? I f you have to travel youd be better with 20 £10 houses one after the other, still only a days work ! If you get them at £25 close though then that s cool, wish it was like that somewhere here :)
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It seems the £3 a house brigade are in commercial too, quoted a huge conservatory inside and out a few weeks back, you can see it here -
www.bents.co.uk
I quoted a very fair price and never heard anything back so i got in contact to see what went on and recieved a nice email
"Hi Sean,
Thanks for your email. Our existing window cleaner won the contract in the end, purely down to finance
Your quote was the most detailed and particularly tailored to our needs, thank you for the attention to detail that you gave, it was very much appreciated. I really don’t think there would have been anything else that you could have done to secure the deal to be honest. Yourself and the other contractors that I contacted came in mostly at the same price, our existing window cleaners price I really don’t think could have been matched at £x00.00.
If this wasn’t down to cost then I feel certain that it would have been Dolphin that would have got the deal, your professionalism was outstanding compared to the other companies, you emailed the quote speedily to me and followed it up, certainly the service that we here at Bents expect.
I have kept your details on file and in the future should an opportunity arise either we will contact you again.
Kindest regards and very best wishes"
But i couldnt understand how cleaners got away with such low price!!! Maybe your on here?? lol IN which case - HOW DO YOU MAKE MONEY HAHA
the guy was half my price??
Out of interest what you reckon for that in and out, once every 8 weeks and not including roof
I think the w/c who got the job... was obviously happy with the price!
Good on him!
Customer happy, he's happy, everyone should be happy for him!
I note only one person has had the guts to quote a price £500
NO-One else???
Why are people so scared to offer a quote ??? ??? ???
Your not going to get the job, it's already gone!
What price did you offer, now that it's immaterial ??? ??? ???
That's too big a job for me. :'(
I would need three others helping... and I would be looking for £1200.
Hopefully do it early morning!
There that didn't hurt now did it? ::) ???
Looks bigger than it really is, doesnt include roof.. 2 days inside on picker tradding, 1 outside poling. Lad who got it charged 400 including cherry picker, so was making v little..
Im happy for him, i just cant see the profit in it :( Would rather clean domestic than work like that, i was only upset as i felt for the first time my quote was bang on, not a guess but based on fact , and i was sure it was in the bag, till i found out how little someone had got it for, but like i say fair enough, if hes happy with his wage and does a good job then fantastic, theres more work out there..... I will get some more commercial at a decent price eventually :)
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200 panes of glass
EXTERIOR
1 min per pane exterior WFP = 200 mins
20 min setup and tidy up
Total 220 mins
INTERIOR
40 cycles trad with personnel lift * 12 mins = 480 mins
20 min to take off trailer and get in position
Total 500 mins
Total Labour 12 hours
Staffing Costs 12 Hours * £10 = £120
Equipment Costs £150 (for personnel lift) less if you have your own one
Van & WFP System £40 (£10 per hour)
Total Costs £310
Guy is taking £90 profit.
This is how I have been advised to price up commercial work if I want to win it.
Some of the bigger companies are happy to make a very small profit. They make it up by getting the Contract Cleaning or supplying the paper towels etc.
Sad but true.
Commercial is WAY more competitive than domestic in my experience. You will almost always be competing and the lowest price usually gets it. You do get the odd stupid company that only gets the one quote. Maybe 1:20 of your quotes will be like this and usually smaller buildings.
My conclusion, if you are a guy on your own, focus on high end domestic as you will make far more per hour IMHO
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brilliant summary, i will try and digest this, and believe you are probably right.
staff and van and scissors and twelve hours labour to make ninety quid isn't good.
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200 panes of glass
EXTERIOR
1 min per pane exterior WFP = 200 mins
20 min setup and tidy up
Total 220 mins
INTERIOR
40 cycles trad with personnel lift * 12 mins = 480 mins
20 min to take off trailer and get in position
Total 500 mins
Total Labour 12 hours
Staffing Costs 12 Hours * £10 = £120
Equipment Costs £150 (for personnel lift) less if you have your own one
Van & WFP System £40 (£10 per hour)
Total Costs £310
Guy is taking £90 profit.
This is how I have been advised to price up commercial work if I want to win it.
Some of the bigger companies are happy to make a very small profit. They make it up by getting the Contract Cleaning or supplying the paper towels etc.
Sad but true.
Commercial is WAY more competitive than domestic in my experience. You will almost always be competing and the lowest price usually gets it. You do get the odd stupid company that only gets the one quote. Maybe 1:20 of your quotes will be like this and usually smaller buildings.
My conclusion, if you are a guy on your own, focus on high end domestic as you will make far more per hour IMHO
The guy doesnt do contract cleaning or anything though, form what i understand its just him and an employee...
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Then he must be satisfied with a low profit margin and does not value his own time highly enough.
Perhaps he is hoping to make money by building a large business and wants to get volume? Risky strategy.
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maybe he already owns his own cherrypicker that he uses for other work also then i think it can be done ok for £400 but if he haas to knock out hire charges from this i think he will struggle.
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200 panes of glass
EXTERIOR
1 min per pane exterior WFP = 200 mins
20 min setup and tidy up
Total 220 mins
INTERIOR
40 cycles trad with personnel lift * 12 mins = 480 mins
20 min to take off trailer and get in position
Total 500 mins
Total Labour 12 hours
Staffing Costs 12 Hours * £10 = £120
Equipment Costs £150 (for personnel lift) less if you have your own one
Van & WFP System £40 (£10 per hour)
Total Costs £310
Guy is taking £90 profit.
This is how I have been advised to price up commercial work if I want to win it.
Some of the bigger companies are happy to make a very small profit. They make it up by getting the Contract Cleaning or supplying the paper towels etc.
Sad but true.
Commercial is WAY more competitive than domestic in my experience. You will almost always be competing and the lowest price usually gets it. You do get the odd stupid company that only gets the one quote. Maybe 1:20 of your quotes will be like this and usually smaller buildings.
My conclusion, if you are a guy on your own, focus on high end domestic as you will make far more per hour IMHO
this is how alot of firms price and that is why some buildings are so poorly cleaned for instance the time you give for labour is for someone who is pretty efficient and works at a resonable workrate but it doesnt allow for unforseen delays ie[ manager saying can you do those over there whilst we move this gear], also the labour cost of £10 an hour means he must be paying about £7 an hour by the time you factor in holidays and N.I.C
this is for someone who can wfp, trad clean and have a I.P.A.F licence.
this in my opinion would also be a two man job for safety reasons i e coning areas off where cherrypicker is used.
so the reality is they send two men and want it done in under the day the men are on low wages and dont give a monkeys so they rush the wfp and leave it spotty and try to miss as much of the insides as possible whilstspending half the time larking about.
i ave already said in another post job could be done for £400 if they owned own cherrypicker but to hire out of this cost i think they will only cover wages if lucky.
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Yes. This is exactly what we are up against with commercial.
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Also, I do not believe that IPAF is a legal requirement. Most guys using personnel lifts do not have ipaf.
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Pricing can be so subjective, everyone has a different idea of how it should be done and how much they should charge.
For me it has always been about working out what the average pace a window cleaner works at.
Many years ago when I first started I listened to a very experienced window cleaner, who had moved into other areas, including janitorial supplies.
One of the things he pointed out was with regards to the time it takes a window cleaner to clean an average casement window.
How long?
Well if you take an average casement window to be 3 panes of glass, one narrow opening light, another an opening window pane to the side of the narrow one and the final pane the one under the narrow opening light, about 3 or 4 ft tall and about 5ft wide.
.........90 seconds to clean, including any required detailing.
Think thats slow?
Try it, get the stop watch out and try it for yourself (trad mind!)
It's quicker than you think, and you need to be a fairly accomplished window cleaner to do so...to a high standard mind....
Anyway....You have your average for the average window unit.
By todays standard, where window cleaning is concerned the average turnover for a sole trader window cleaner according to the tax man is around 17k per year. Lop off 5k for overheads, and vehicle depreciation and running costs should be included, plus replacing vehicle about every 5 years (hence 5k) and you are down around 12k for a realistic income....not a great deal.
Once you also allow for setting up and putting away, travelling between accounts and so on, a reasonable target to aim for is about 3 standard semi's an hour.
You are also unlikely to actually spend more than 5 hours a day actually cleaning windows.
And don't forget to allow for holidays -4 or 5 weeks a year - weather affected days - probably 20 or more, not necessarily days off but days where you can't work a full day and those days when you just can't get motivated or other things interrupt your day and you begin to realise why perhaps that the average turnover is only around 17k.
But you know now what the average is, of time taken to clean a window and a house, and of potential turnover.
You can now work out what to price per unit (window) pricing then gets easier, you count up your units, allow for access and you have a consistent method for pricing.
Now you may want to turnover 25k or 35k, but if you want to be competitive and also to remain in business for any length of time then you have to be able to price sensibly.
Charging £20 per standard semi might make you good money (at the average of 3 an hour) but you are going to be at least twice the price of the average window cleaner.
Go in at a fiver and you are going to be half the price of Mr Average...
Neither way is a good way.
You need to compete with Mr Average.
The way you make your money is not to be Mr Average yourself, you don't clean 3 an hour, you aim for 4 or 5.
You become quick AND efficient at what you do.
Charge pennies and you have to go at a hell of a pace all the time and you are never going to make a really good income, and if you are working at the limit of your ability then your standard is going to be poor, you will skip detailing, rub a dry cloth over frosted glass, not bother with sills, take risks on ladders..I know, I've done it!
Why if I just place the ladder in the middle I can get both these windows in one go....all I have to do is dangle my one leg out at 90 degrees as a counter balance!
Running around like a headless chicken and panicking about the recession gets you nowhere...just a lot poorer if you start dropping your prices, and what happens when existing customers hear that you are pricing cheaper than before? Do you drop their prices accordingly just to keep them?
All of the above of course assumes you are trad as against WFP, you are going to be faster with WFP, especially with georgian, leaded and anything over 25ft, but you have far greater setup and running costs to factor in, ergo, your pricing structure needs to be very similar to when you were trad.
Many are constrained by the area in which they live and work, but regardless of where you live, if you are cheaper than everyone else then you are way too cheap!!!!
Ian
Ian; that is one of the most realistic and honest posts i have read on cleanitup.
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i flamin well hope IPAF is a legal requirement, it cost me £200 for a scissor lift course and pass :-[