Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: YWCS on March 05, 2009, 09:22:06 pm
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It's interesting that people are voting on this one without leaving a comment to say how they voted.
Imagine doing that.
I voted ....... ;D
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I vote yes it would eliminate the dole dosers from the people who want to make an honest living to pay our bills and holidays
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Ive voted yes, voiced my opinion on this on threads in the past so didnt feel i needed to voice again.
Chris
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Keep it in mind that you will be required to pay for a license in each County you work in and that as soon as you employ a w/c ( good or bad ) you will have to immediately pay for a license for him!
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Hi Folks,
I voted Yes.
But what is the idea behind licensing, besides making it harder for any Tom, Dick or Harry to start up?
I have my ideas, but I just wanted to see other peoples views
David
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Ive voted yes, aswell
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I voted yes,.. but I'd want to see some real enforcement for my money,..
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It would prevent them from going after commercial work as it would be illegal to employ them.
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I voted yes, and NWH hit one of the nails on the head
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I have not voted i this as I live in scotland however as some have said not all adheres please look at http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm. I dont no where they got there figures, but I do think they are an acurate reflection. I agree with licencing window cleaners, but believe allot of improvements are needed. More checks done by police, and improve the insurance with hieght restrictions and not only covering the public, but it should also cover your customer.
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Since the Police don't turn out to reports of car theft and burglary etc, why would they turn out to the report of an unlicenced window cleaner??? If you walked into a Poolice Stn and said I saw a man cleaning windows in Boro St just now, don't wait for the police helicopter to arrive. You won't even get a trafic warden,
We would be just paying a lot of fees to council jobsworths.
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Since the Police don't turn out to reports of car theft and burglary etc, why would they turn out to the report of an unlicenced window cleaner??? If you walked into a Poolice Stn and said I saw a man cleaning windows in Boro St just now, don't wait for the police helicopter to arrive. You won't even get a trafic warden,
We would be just paying a lot of fees to council jobsworths.
Here's a joke...
Old man on phone: I think there's a burglar in my house
Police: Sorry we have no available officers and can't get there for 20 minutes
Old man: In that case I've just shot him
Within 3 minutes two helicopters, and 3 squad cars arrived ;D
So just say you're gonna hit him and hang up
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i voted yes as long as its not just another money getting thing for local government and the money is used to patrol the scheme.
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How many so far have voted yes, and don’t support there own trade association FWC!
You wouldn’t need licensing if 30’000 window cleaners joined the FWC that would be 30’000 marketers and a richer = more powerful trade association working on your behalf.
There would definitely be a noticeable difference in professional window cleaners and the other lot. Quoting & getting the job will be easier as the public perception of window cleaners will be different.
I went with the FSB instead
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just a wee point i thought i would throw in lads to think about. its been law in scotland since 1982, its now 2009 and most arent licenced and the public couldnt care less. the worst offenders are commercial w/c so thats not going to help with commercial and insurance companys dont care. i totaly support the slwcn as i am a member but lads its taken a long, long time for it to even be publicaly known that a license is required, and it isnt per county you need one its per council area, so for example in 20 minute driving i could be in 5 council areas not including my own
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I voted No !!
I love competition especially from people who drive a tatty car with ladders on the roof - let the customers decide!!!! Professional looking or not so professional looking its up to them - there is a market for every type of WC
Its called fair trade !
Don't be afraid of the competition use it to your advantage!!!
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just a wee point i thought i would throw in lads to think about. its been law in scotland since 1982, its now 2009 and most arent licenced and the public couldnt care less. the worst offenders are commercial w/c so thats not going to help with commercial and insurance companys dont care. i totaly support the slwcn as i am a member but lads its taken a long, long time for it to even be publicaly known that a license is required, and it isnt per county you need one its per council area, so for example in 20 minute driving i could be in 5 council areas not including my own
Would England have to have the same sort of license as Scotland then, surely we could have just one license and work any where.
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just a wee point i thought i would throw in lads to think about. its been law in scotland since 1982, its now 2009 and most arent licenced and the public couldnt care less. the worst offenders are commercial w/c so thats not going to help with commercial and insurance companys dont care. i totaly support the slwcn as i am a member but lads its taken a long, long time for it to even be publicaly known that a license is required, and it isnt per county you need one its per council area, so for example in 20 minute driving i could be in 5 council areas not including my own
Would England have to have the same sort of license as Scotland then, surely we could have just one license and work any where.
ive no idea mate just be carefull what you ask for it could cost, we are stuck with it so have to make it work
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I have not voted i this as I live in scotland however as some have said not all adheres please look at http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm. I dont no where they got there figures, but I do think they are an acurate reflection. I agree with licencing window cleaners, but believe allot of improvements are needed. More checks done by police, and improve the insurance with hieght restrictions and not only covering the public, but it should also cover your customer.
Those figure were obtained in April 2006 so are coming up for 3 years old, Doug is in the process of updating them we are waiting for the councils to supply new lists. Back then the figures were that around 1 in 5 window cleaners were licensed, but in the last couple of years with the workload that Doug has put in there has been a substantial increase in the numbers of window cleaners being brought into the licensing system, it wouldnt surprise me now if the ratio of licensed to unlicensed window cleaners is now closer to 1 in 3, hopefully in a few more years the ratio will balance out and in future years after that the licensed should out number the unlicensed.
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The thing i could never understand about licensing window cleaners was why just us?
I could pick a plumber,electrician,joiner,plasterer or any other tradesperson out of the paper,flyer or Yellow Pages and it would never cross my mind to ask them if they were licensed or not.
I know window cleaning is a low cost buisness start up and some shady characters could be attracted to it but surely a handy way with a brush or knowing how lay a laminate floor is just as easy a start up.
What i am trying to say is there are just as many crooks fixing houses as cleaning them.
By the way i work in Scotland and was licensed for many years and was only asked to view my license once by another window cleaner who thought i was poaching work in his area,that was over 20 years ago and since then i have come to the conclusion that it is just another tax we could do without.
The bottom line is the customer/client trusts you and agrees with the price and the quality of the job done or you are out whether you have a piece of laminated paper hanging around your neck or not.
Rant over please discuss.
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i voted no,just another cash cow for local councils and more big brother ;D ;D
Agreed! I voted 'No' too.
...I wonder how many of you wouold have voted 'yes' if you were back in your starting up stage???
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Licensing even if poorly upheld does do some good, a few people asked if the insurance companies enforce licenses and yes they do, they don’t check it but if you have an accident and you are not licensed, the policy is revoked, the same goes if you break the terms of the policy e.g. not exceeding 15ft on a ladder :-\, which I do think is a little low.
Secondly and the main point is you need a policy check done. Do you remember that post about inside and out window cleaning, cleaning prince Charles house and he was an ex burglar. Well he probably wouldn't get a license.
I think that two have responsibility of enforcing licences in Scotland, one the police/ or council and second us. We should be making it known to the public and raising public awareness as much as we can.
Tam K, I think that the SWCLN should be much more up to date, I know they were old figures but its not just that its who is licensed as well. It would be helpful if someone logged on there and could check and know for definite if someone has a licence or not but instead it is all old data, advertising that people who have came into the business in the last three years hasn't got a licence when they do. That’s why I haven't joined the SWCLN.
I know that this information has to come from the council and I know mine is a shambles in my opinion but feel the responsibility for the sort of scheme should be there’s, and the information should be made available on there website. But I guess that’s another topic.
Someone asked about one license for all, it doesn't seem to work that way it is selective the council area. I don’t know if this is to restrict the numbers they way the councils do with taxi drivers, but I see no other reason for this. I am also very angry that the councils even enforce a thing like that with taxi drivers or anyone else. The council or government should never oversee a private business in any way shape or forum. Make sure they don’t have a criminal record yes, but never restrict the opportunity to a selected few, this defeats fair competition and is not in the best interest of the public. So now you see the councils setting the maximum number of taxies and the prices they charge, and licences being sold black market style to people wanting involved in that business.... I never want to see that for window cleaners or any other business.
And not on topic but the government intervening with the banks is just another example of this, they should never get involved, if one bank goes, one will prevail stronger, that’s the fairness of a competitive market, the strong(good business men do well) and weak(banks issuing £2k and day payoff's) disappear. The government has overstepped the mark and created a bigger problem.
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I voted No !!
I love competition especially from people who drive a tatty car with ladders on the roof - let the customers decide!!!! Professional looking or not so professional looking its up to them - there is a market for every type of WC
Its called fair trade !
Don't be afraid of the competition use it to your advantage!!!
Do you know what? I voted Yes but having read a few comments like this I'm not so sure. If it's not policed and let's be honest it won't be, then what's the point?
If you look like a ratbag then some people wil think twice, if it look perfectly normal some people will still think twice, it's about building trust.
Last summer I saw group of 4 lads pile out of a rusty skoda and descend upon a few not very large (4 bed) houses, all wearing baseballs caps and hoodies, it must be quite intimidating for older people and they must be signing on to make money 4 people to a house.
Most customers wouldn't put up with this but some would
They wouldn't apply for a licence and if you ask them they would say something unrepetable...
If it's not enforced then what is the point?
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Now if licensing etc was linked to the Taxmans database I'm sure as eggs are eggs it would all be taken a little more seriously but as for local councils enforcing a licence system...sorry but that is laughable at best.
Another thing is that without the need for individual to carry some form of i.d...what is the point of it all anyhow?
Cheers
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Its worth it got a new customer today 3 visits will pay for 1 year’s fee for the FWC.
She asked me for reference, and I pointed out the logo on my business card, she was happy with that and will check with the FWC.
Even if you are a well presented professional, tell me another way to get a reference sorted as quickly as me pointing to a logo on my business card that she has in her hand?
I show my CRB certificate,
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I think that two have responsibility of enforcing licences in Scotland, one the police/ or council and second us. We should be making it known to the public and raising public awareness as much as we can.
Tam K, I think that the SWCLN should be much more up to date, I know they were old figures but its not just that its who is licensed as well. It would be helpful if someone logged on there and could check and know for definite if someone has a licence or not but instead it is all old data, advertising that people who have came into the business in the last three years hasn't got a licence when they do. That’s why I haven't joined the SWCLN.
I know that this information has to come from the council and I know mine is a shambles in my opinion but feel the responsibility for the sort of scheme should be there’s, and the information should be made available on there website. But I guess that’s another topic.
100% agree with your comment above that licensed window cleaners also need to take a part but the information supplied by the Council needs to be correct.
This is a turning point which we have been pushing and more Councils will be following, Stirling Council have now proceeded which makes it very easy for us the licensed window cleaner to know if an unlicensed window cleaner poaches our work.
Each window cleaner has to declare who they work for or their trading name and this is now on a list on their website which is updated. The lists on the SLWCN are upto date with the Councils who have agreed to work with us.
On Weds I had a meeting and I thought I would never here this that some of the licensing personnel are a waste of time and that the SLWCN should now liase direct with higher authoring.
Just to give an update what is happening:-
Renfrewshire 130% increase in licensed window cleaners, Police in unmarked cars checking
East Ayrshire will now be targetting all Commercial Companies
Edinburgh, full time officer appointed on the job working closely with the SLWCN, over 40 so far caught
Falkirk, on going Police and Enforcement Officer checks
Strlingshire, people now getting caught out with new enforcement officer
North Lanark, some very good local community Police Officers checking window cleaners in their areas
Fife, members working very closely with the Police and several caught out
Areas that are a totally waste of time but will change soon, Glasgow, Dumfries, Highlands, Argyll
We have been given the green light so will tackle these one at a time.
But as said we ALL have to work together and I see this happeing in some areas where members have recognised this. Wait until the summer and we will see hoards coming out of the woodwork so we need this to work to protect our livelyhood.
Can it work in England, I think the answer is why did the AWPC failed because no one backed it and you need members to work together. This is key, this is why it is now working in Scotland because we are all working together.
Some body would need to collectively work with it's members and protect their interests and members need to support it. This is the only way licensing could ever work.
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Why do we need a licence?,
It will stop the dole cheats?, No it won't, do you really think that someone who is willing to break the law by working and claiming benefits is going to stop because he needs a piece of paper. If you want to stop these people then you can make a telephone call to the benefits fraudline which will cost you nothing.
It will slow down the newbies who are coming into the trade, no it won't, they will just get a licence.
It will stop the underpricing of work, well it won't stop that either, a cleaner will always price his work at a rate that he is happy with.
Some cleaners who are already working might have their licence application turned down, because of something silly they did in the past, they have now lost their business and are unemployed.
Once the councils have licencing in place, whats to stop them adding more requirements that window cleaners need to do to carry on working, for example they could insist that all window cleaners need to have vans, that all cleaners need to wear a uniform, they can only work at set times and days of the week, etc etc.
and finally, do you really believe that the councils are capable of enforcing the licence scheme, at the moment we are all supposed to have a licence if we have a tv, yet there are over a million people in the country who don't have one.
Just say NO NO NO
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a little more seriously but as for local councils enforcing a licence system...sorry but that is laughable at best.
Sorry but I have to disagree, firstly I think you are thinking inside the box a little and I don’t mean that they have to go out and start cornering window cleaners.... for instance.....
If the local council created an online portal linked with the DVLA and allow members of the public and licensed window cleaners to report someone they thought was working without a licence. They could enter there regy and give there e-mail address, then all the council have to do is look it up, if they are licensed send an e-mail out to the person that reported it saying yes they are licensed and insured, or send the person who isn't licensed a forum given them x amount of time to apply or it with be passed to the police.
A little ingenuity can go along way!
They are taking our money for the licence, so they sure as hell better be ready to do something for that money.
And I know that solution wont fit every situation but it will catch out most and do allot better than doing nothing at all.
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Actually they wouldnt even have to link it to the DVLA, just have window cleaners give the regy of the cars they use and let a computer look it up, it could be done automatically.
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a little more seriously but as for local councils enforcing a licence system...sorry but that is laughable at best.
Sorry but I have to disagree, firstly I think you are thinking inside the box a little and I don’t mean that they have to go out and start cornering window cleaners.... for instance.....
If the local council created an online portal linked with the DVLA and allow members of the public and licensed window cleaners to report someone they thought was working without a licence. They could enter there regy and give there e-mail address, then all the council have to do is look it up, if they are licensed send an e-mail out to the person that reported it saying yes they are licensed and insured, or send the person who isn't licensed a forum given them x amount of time to apply or it with be passed to the police.
A little ingenuity can go along way!
They are taking our money for the licence, so they sure as hell better be ready to do something for that money.
And I know that solution wont fit every situation but it will catch out most and do allot better than doing nothing at all.
Being worked on ;)
Originally all was reported through Crimestoppers but had to be stopped due to the amount of calls coming through, would not look good on their performance rates ;D
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would like to see the license but.........
I would like to see value for my money and not some fat council guy sitting on his backside all day tied up with paperwork and the lack of attitude because its to cold for him outside.
I also don't agree with this area license like they have in Scotland, a taxi driver doesn't stop his taxi to kick out his passenger to say 'sorry I'm not covered for this area you'll have to get another taxi'.. So why do you have to have half a dozen licenses to cover different areas.
I voted Yes.
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Why do you all need licensing cant you just look after your own business and stop trying to stop someone else from making a living. What makes you think that window cleaning is such a special trade that it needs a licence. I'm actually a joiner and which ive doing since i was 16. i dont need a licence to ba a joiner i just need to know how to do my job thats all that matters to customers. it should be the same for window cleaning aslong as you know how to clean windows (it's not the hardest job in the world is it guys) and your paying the right taxes and N.I. why should you care after all it will be there customers who decide if they want to use them and if there no good they will soon get the push.
can you imagine all the the different licenses there could be if it gets the go ahead
Cashier licence
postman licence
joiner licence
litter picker licence
valeter licence
labourer licence
wheely bin cleaner licence
comon guys it's just competition live with it and get over it
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I don't think that licences will prevent the dole-boys any more than licences have detered unlicenced mini-cabs.
But that's not the reason I voted against.
If they were free once you had passed certain criteria then I'd be inclined to want them in England if only to make it a little harder for the benefit fraudsters to nick our work. But the point is they won't be free they'll cost £100s per district (and I cover 5) and they'll keep putting up the annual cost..that's a guarantee!
And thank you I already pay 30% to HMRC and don't feel disposed to pay yet another tax to local councils in SW London, who by the way will do nothing to police the streets where I ply my trade.
As for plod...don't make me laugh!!!
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I voted no and my reasons are.
Will the council do anything about it like enforcing it.
I can see it would be just another money maker for local councils.
If they were to go round and make checks frequently i would be all for licencing.
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Cashier licence
postman licence
joiner licence
litter picker licence
valeter licence
labourer licence
wheely bin cleaner licence
If it helps to stop illegal workers who contribute nothing to the country, sometimes being paid less than minimum wage by unscrupulous employers, then I say bring it on.
Also do you know many self-employeed cashiers, post men, litter pickers. These are not trades and trades like laborours cant be compared. A window cleaner take a month income from one customer and allot of dole boys can tie up a large piece of that market, joiners etc do work generally as a one off for biulding contractors sell stair cases etc but not the same customer every month, also you wont find a dole boy taking the market from a joiner as they have more expensive tools to buy, which a dole boy isnt likely to fork out.
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Absolutely NOT
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your right about cashiers, post men and litter pickers not being proper trades (but they are still a job and they too would not like someone to take there job from them for a cheaper price). But as far as being self employed the fact is being self employed has got nothing to do with wether you get paid by the same customer each time or if you do a one off. That has got nothing to do with being self employed yes joiners do sub contract to builders but also have there own private work in which they get paid directly by each customer they work for. Window cleaners and self employed joiners will both have to fill in the same tax return forms each year and thats a fact. The tax man does not care if you get paid by the same person each month all there interested in is how much you earn and how much you pay out which will result in how much tax you will have to pay each year. Also there are tens of thousands of labourers who are self employed.
All a licence would do is create uneeded work for the jobs for the boys brigade down at the council.
Cashier licence
postman licence
joiner licence
litter picker licence
valeter licence
labourer licence
wheely bin cleaner licence
If it helps to stop illegal workers who contribute nothing to the country, sometimes being paid less than minimum wage by unscrupulous employers, then I say bring it on.
Also do you know many self-employeed cashiers, post men, litter pickers. These are not trades and trades like laborours cant be compared. A window cleaner take a month income from one customer and allot of dole boys can tie up a large piece of that market, joiners etc do work generally as a one off for biulding contractors sell stair cases etc but not the same customer every month, also you wont find a dole boy taking the market from a joiner as they have more expensive tools to buy, which a dole boy isnt likely to fork out.
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Can someone tell me how long the Scottish system has been in place? and do the stats show an annual increase in licensed WC'ers (no matter how small).
The law was introduced in 1982.
The stats on the website were put up to shame the Councils to get their act together which is now in a publication on the "Civic Act" which lawyers get to read etc..
It has now served it's purpose and what we are know getting Council's to do is set a regular target on having xxx window cleaners checked , xxx licenses issued, xxx newspaper campaigns on a yearly basis.
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I think you are kind of missing my point there, in my opinion the window cleaning industry is more funerable to cowboys than other trades because of two things. One you can start up for a fairy low cost, and unlike other trades we repeat the work on a regular basis, so they dont have to advertise as much once they establish there under qouted round.
And yes someone on the dole working as a cashier is taking up a job, but thats more to do with the employer than them so being self-employeed does have something to do with it however the responsability is on them not to take jobs like that so I do agree with your point to some extent.
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honestly i'm not missing the point you just pointed out exactly why there should be no licence. Window cleaning is not some special trade as you say any one can start up for a fairly low price that's because anyone can do it. The only reason why there is so much business for window cleaners because people dont want to do it themselves they find it easier to pay someone to do it for them. But dont kid yourseves if customers genuinely couldn't afford to pay for a w/c they could quite easily clean there own.
Window cleaning is not for example like being a plumber where you need to be corgi registered to even mess with gas. because if a plumber get's something wrong they could potentially kill someone through negligence and incorrect training thats why they need to have a corgi. Window cleaners are not going to kill or harm anyone but themselves from the work they do.
you also mention an under quoted round even charging £5 for a house do 15 of them a day they will earn £75 a day take away tax they will be left just under £60 a day they will earn over £15000 grand a year not to mention the first five grand in a year they earn in a year is tax excempt. My point is alot of factory jobs only earn just over 10k a year so they will be laughing all the way to the bank.
No licence needed
I think you are kind of missing my point there, in my opinion the window cleaning industry is more funerable to cowboys than other trades because of two things. One you can start up for a fairy low cost, and unlike other trades we repeat the work on a regular basis, so they dont have to advertise as much once they establish there under qouted round.
And yes someone on the dole working as a cashier is taking up a job, but thats more to do with the employer than them so being self-employeed does have something to do with it however the responsability is on them not to take jobs like that so I do agree with your point to some extent.
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I think we will have to agree to disagree then my friend, if they have no licence they may have a criminal record for bugulary or worse a pedofile and pearing in your daughter window but if you think because anyone can do it is a reason not to give the public that protection then your entitled to your opinion.
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Criminals regardless of what they have done can be working any where (supermarkets, delivery drivers, even schools) and we don't no about it so i dont think we can narrow that one down to just window cleaners customers can we.
I think we will have to agree to disagree then my friend, if they have no licence they may have a criminal record for bugulary or worse a pedofile and pearing in your daughter window but if you think because anyone can do it is a reason not to give the public that protection then your entitled to your opinion.
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no but supermarket workers and delivery drivers arent working in and around your home so again thats not a very good comparison. Trades put to the side would you have someone work in your home who has had a criminal background check done, or someone you dont know with no company name, id, unform etc and for all you know a criminal record as long as your arm.
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So everytime someone does any work on your home or delivers something to your address you make sure they have had a crb check do you? I dont think so.
no but supermarket workers and delivery drivers arent working in and around your home so again thats not a very good comparison. Trades put to the side would you have someone work in your home who has had a criminal background check done, or someone you dont know with no company name, id, unform etc and for all you know a criminal record as long as your arm.
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At the moment there are thousands of people in prisons being trained up as plumbers, painters and decorators and electrians.
Where are they likely to use this new skill they have aquired, well some will get jobs with firms while some will go self employed, but all of them will be working on the inside of peoples homes and offices, window cleaners normally only work on the outside as a rule.
So who is the greatest risk?
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How many so far have voted yes, and don’t support there own trade association FWC!
You wouldn’t need licensing if 30’000 window cleaners joined the FWC that would be 30’000 marketers and a richer = more powerful trade association working on your behalf.
There would definitely be a noticeable difference in professional window cleaners and the other lot. Quoting & getting the job will be easier as the public perception of window cleaners will be different.
Well said ewan im going to join the FWC now
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hydro if they were inside for pedophilia I couldn't care were they went, as long as they weren't working on my home, and we both know that not everyone who has a criminal background gets refused its only of the council deems them a danger to the public, its the same for taxi drivers, and its in my opinion in the best interest of the public.
And gaz I think we could go on all night mate so I am making this my last repsonse to you, this topic is not about other trades even though I think they may benifit from something similar, the tread is about wether we should licence window cleaners in England. I would however be interested to here your answer to my last post, if there was a window cleaner on your street previously convicted (possibly for pediphilla (a worst case sinario)) would do want him working on your house outside your daughters window, or would you want to do something to stop that from ever happening.
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You will find that sex offenders who are released from prison, go onto a register and as part of their release terms they are forbidden to work or be near where children are.
So this type of person would not be able to be a window cleaner.
A friend of mine is out on a life licence for killing a man over 20 years ago.
The person he killed was by accident but he would not be granted a licence if one was indrodused, yet since he has been out of prison he has worked hard, paid his taxes and kept himself to himself, why should he have his livilihood taken away from him.
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I dont think a licence should take that away from him he has served his time and deserves a new start, but what about the other hand where a window cleaner and his pals beats up your friend while he trys to start this new life, should they be allowed to continue working as a window cleaner.
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if that happened they should be arrested for assault, a licence is not going to stop them in the first place.
We already have laws which protect us, why do we need to replicate them by having a licence scheme.
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yes they should be arrested, once there time is served they shouldn't be concidered fit to continue working as a window cleaner as people convicted of pedophilla are not fit be around children. There is a clear danger they may offend again and a licence could prevent this. However only if people get behind it, in the industry and the public.
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Here is a section which is top secret but all trades in the Civic Act are governed by the "Fit Person Test" where the Police can object to the license. Remember it is not window cleaners that are governed by this but Taxi drivers, pub landlords, wheelie bin cleaners, car valeting, street trader and now tatoo parlours have been introduced. There are a couple of other trades but cannot think to hand what they are.
This document informs what pub licensee holders are governed by a "Fit Person" which is near enough the same as window cleaners. It is all in legal jargon so please don't ask me to explain it, but I feel it is not clear enough.
“FIT AND PROPER PERSON” TEST - LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACT 2005
The Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 (the “2005 Act”) will replace the Licensing
(Scotland) Act 1976 in its entirety. The 2005 Act and the new licences under it come
fully into force on 1 September 2009 at the end of a transition period that began in
February 2008. It replaces the 1976 Act’s system of separate licences for pubs,
restaurants &c with a single all-purpose premises licence and a personal licence.
An issue of concern that has been raised with the way the 2005 Act will work is the
restricted ability of the police to comment on applications for premises and personal
licences.
Under the 1976 Act, various “competent objectors”, including the chief constable,
may object to the grant, renewal or transfer of a licence. Objections must be relevant
to the grounds, as set out in section 17, on which the Board may refuse to grant a
licence. These grounds include that the applicant (or connected persons) are not a
“fit and proper person” to be the holder of a licence. Section 16A also permits the
chief constable to submit “observations”, again relevant to the grounds in section 17.
The 2005 Act takes a different approach. Section 22 allows any person to object to an
application for a premises licence, but subsection (2) limits the chief constable so
that he can only object on the ground that he has reason to believe that the applicant
47
is involved in serious organised crime and that refusal of the application is necessary
for the purpose of the crime prevention objective (in section 4(2)). The chief
constable also has a role, under section 21, of providing antisocial behaviour reports
and a notice relating to convictions for relevant or foreign offences.
We propose to amend the 2005 Act to enhance the police role. We do not propose to
reintroduce a “fit and proper person” test as such, but rather to work within the
existing framework of the 2005 Act to ensure that the police have appropriate powers
and suitable provisions will be included in the Criminal Justice and Licensing Bill.
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yes we could go on all night and i think il leave it on this one your dead right i would not want a paedophile working in my home or anybody's home full stop so at least we agree on something but i think everyone would agree with this.
hydro if they were inside for pedophilia I couldn't care were they went, as long as they weren't working on my home, and we both know that not everyone who has a criminal background gets refused its only of the council deems them a danger to the public, its the same for taxi drivers, and its in my opinion in the best interest of the public.
And gaz I think we could go on all night mate so I am making this my last repsonse to you, this topic is not about other trades even though I think they may benifit from something similar, the tread is about wether we should licence window cleaners in England. I would however be interested to here your answer to my last post, if there was a window cleaner on your street previously convicted (possibly for pediphilla (a worst case sinario)) would do want him working on your house outside your daughters window, or would you want to do something to stop that from ever happening.
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so if you have got form for anti social behaviour you can be refused a licence ::)
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You make is sound like there are thousands of window cleaners are crooks, when was the last time a legal window cleaner was convicted for house breaking?
To join the criminal underground you need to be good at cleaning windows? I hope Ronnie Biggs is taking lessons before being released later this year.
John McVicar should have picked up a squeggie instead of writing books, the man has lost all his respect from his former associates ;D
Even Robin Hood could have egged the Sherrif of Nottinghams windows. ;D
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if there is no licence to check nobody will have a clue hoe many there really is, they wont advertise it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1047262/Burglar-raided-holiday-cottage-gets-window-cleaner-job-Prince-Charles-country-home.html
Its about giving the public piece of mind and improving the general perseption that the public has of window cleaners.
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So what is the fuss over this guy....he done something wrong,done his time and now is getting on building a new life and a decent round by the looks of it.
The fact that he cleans big ears windows should have no relevance on what he has done in his past.....
This is where a license would stop a guy like him trading....because he has been bought to the spotlight by cleaning royalty the council,guaranteed,would make an example of him and either revoke or not issue a license to him.......
Even the hardest of men who made huge mistakes in the past have the right to do it properly.
Your argument for pedos is non-sensical.A window cleaning license would not be issued to one of these monsters as they are on a register and are (supposedly) continuously monitered both in their professional and social lives.There is no argument for a license based on that category criminal.
Licensing imo would be a local tax that is another burden on the window cleaner.It would in no way discourage benefit cheats to not go out window cleaning,if they feel they can cheat with benefits do you honestly believe they will think twice about a license scheme,do me a favour.
I have tried to find a survey of how many window cleaners have been prosecuted for crimes relating to the property they work on,but i cannot find one,so i guess it cannot be that many.
So would householders feel safer knowing that we have a license,well do they feel more comfortable knowing that we are members of the fed,or members of safecontractor or members of any other organisations that are meant to be in place to represent us?....well i reckon the average householder couldn't give a monky about any of these as long as you are doing a good job at what they see as the right price.If they dont like you they will get rid of you.
So as you can guess i vot a big NO THANKYOU.....keep it in scotland where apparently it makes a huge differance...i dont think.
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I voted yes but having read all comments I'm thinking twice about which way I should have voted. A good way of highlighting the importence of legal window cleaners would be to get your local paper to run a story about legal wcs and illegal ones for eg having insurance etc. I'm sure this would go a long way to making the custie think more when employing a wc. It would also make some of the illegal ones think twice about what they're doing.
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if there is no licence to check nobody will have a clue hoe many there really is, they wont advertise it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1047262/Burglar-raided-holiday-cottage-gets-window-cleaner-job-Prince-Charles-country-home.html
Its about giving the public piece of mind and improving the general perseption that the public has of window cleaners.
All of my customers trust me, on many I have keys for their houses or to gain access while they are at work.
You seem to think that the majority of the public think that their window cleaners is going to rob them blind at the 1st opportunity.
You also seem to feel that if someone breaks the law, then they shouldn't be allowed to work again, or they can work but so long as its not near me.
This guy broke into a holiday home 5 YEARS ago, he went to prison because he didn't pay his fine for this offence, well how is he going to pay a fine if he cannot work.
He has paid his debt to his community and instead of spending the rest of his life on benefits which we pay for and even working while recieving them he has started his own business.
On the Princes job he even employed 2 people as well and in the future its possible that he will employ on a regular basis.
Everyone makes mistakes in their lives from time to time, they get caught and hopefuly they learn from their mistake, but if you are going to send them to prison and then condemn them to a life without the chance to improve their lifestyle, why should they every bother to be law abiding citzens again.
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I voted yes but having read all comments I'm thinking twice about which way I should have voted. A good way of highlighting the importence of legal window cleaners would be to get your local paper to run a story about legal wcs and illegal ones for eg having insurance etc. I'm sure this would go a long way to making the custie think more when employing a wc. It would also make some of the illegal ones think twice about what they're doing.
It won't matter one dot, most customers just want their windows cleaned and at the cheapest price possible, if the cleaner is doing a good job and is on benefits so what they will think.
The majority of the public have no objections about buying smuggled cigarettes or booze, so employing someone who is on benefits is not going to faze them.
As for insurance, well its not illegal to not have it, it just senisble to have it.
I have £5 million of cover but it does not cover the work I am doing, so if I break their windows I will end up paying for it out of my own pocket, I could get cover for this but when the excess is £500 and the extra premium is 20% more it not worthwhile.
But if someone trips over my hose then they can be very rich.
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You seem to think that the majority of the public think that their window cleaners is going to rob them blind at the 1st opportunity.
You also seem to feel that if someone breaks the law, then they shouldn't be allowed to work again, or they can work but so long as its not near me.
I havent said that any where what I have said that, in some cases there is a need to protect the public and the police should make the shout.
And do think that people should get second chances and be able to live an honest life when they leave prison, but I have seen figures close to 40 percent offend again after being released from prison
see http://www.popcenter.org/tools/repeat_victimization/2
so lets be realistic, not everyone who comes out of prison is reabilitated.
On a final point, we disagree and do think the points you have made are good points, as I have said before the system in scotland is not perfect but I think its better than doing nothing and hoping for the best.
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Hi William,
I do agree with most of what you have posted, but not too sure about people not caring if their WC'er is also on benefits, I personally think this is the one thing that people do care about, the insurance I'm sure they couldn't care less about.
Glenn
Glenn
If you did a poll of the general public, the majority would agree with you about benefits cheats, but if you asked them if they would use someone who was on them the results would be different.
At the moment in some parts of the country there seem to be quite a lot of dole boys working as window cleaners.
They seem to have no problem in gaining new customers where the excisting cleaners are losing them wholesale, do you think that these customers know that their new cleaner is not compleatly legit, or do they think that they are lucky to get a cheaper cleaner.
A licence wll not stop this from happening, if the customer was also taken to court and fined, then it would be an improvement, but even if that was to happen a licence to trade as a window cleaner is still not the answer.
What the window cleaning trade needs, is a more pro-active approach to its image.
This can only be done by the trade associations and local trading standard offices.
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The top and tail of all this is to keep on top of your own business and not be concerned about whether Mr competition is legal or not. However if your really concerned and have proof that mr competition is claiming benefits etc. Then there are phone numbers available to you to phone and shop these cheats.
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Closest to me there would be a four hour drive :'( so I wouldn't call it our association. I happily pay £30 or so pounds a year for a licence, but i think that associations that charge £100 to join is a bit of a money making scheme.
I would only invest in that if it directly effected my business in a positive way, and don’t think they grant that. Yes it looks more professional to have there logo on your flyers and website etc, but wouldn’t say that someone who isn't a member isn’t a professional window cleaner, or is just playing at it as you say.
I think if everyone got behind a licensing system or a trade association in Scotland or England it would make a difference to the industry. With a licence its at least an official body who is governing it. How many of you think a licence would just be another expense to a window cleaner but pay hundreds to associations each year.
Most have put some very good points about having a disclosure as part of a licence for window cleaners, but in truth there is a requirement for that in many trades and industries and weather its an association or a licence, there is a need for some action to be taken to prevent unscrupulous window cleaners.
Some have mentioned that it wouldn’t eliminate the problem, well I ask does the justice system eliminate crime, evil prevails when good men do nothing.
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I happily pay £30 or so pounds a year for a licence, but i think that associations that charge £100 to join is a bit of a money making scheme.
In scotand they already charge £100 per year for a licence, and some councils want you to pay for 3 years in advance.
At the moment they get this money and the don't have to do anything for it, if they have to start to work for this money, I can guarntee that the price for a licence will double.
You said you would gladly pay £30 for a licence, but what about £100 or £200-£300, what is the level, you will say thats too much?
and when you reach that point and the councils kept on raising their fees, what will you do, because you will not be abe to make the licence scheme go away.
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Agreed there is a risk of a monopoly there but you are slightly mis led in your figures you are quoting. The last time I renewed mine I played £72 which was for 3 years so £24 a year. Unlike a trade association which advertises that you are a so called professional, a license advertises that you are a law abiding citizen that has been deemed fit to do the job by the police and local council, and not might have but HAS the proper insurance cover to protect the public.
As for monopolising it, a trade association could do that as well, in fact looking at there prices they already are, and what do they do exactly. So if you go down the road of trade associations you might still be a criminal, no insurance etc but you've signed up to pay a yearly bill to an association. That means very little to the public.
But like I just said, if everyone got behind licences or associations they could make a difference in my opinion, action is what is needed, improvement are needed yes, but not sitting doing nothing saying what would happen to all the people that are not deemed fit. The point is to get rid of the unscrupulous window cleaners, I would rather be concerned for there safety and the customers that use there service than what they will do after they get refused a licence.
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46p a week for a licence and it says a hell of allot more about the window cleaner, its also means all window cleaners and there employees, not just the business owner.
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I would like to know where all these rogue window cleaners are???? I have in the trade for almost 30 years and I am either going round with a blind fold on or they don't excist.
There have been dozens of tv programmes on rogue and crooked workers yet I cannot remember 1 where the star was a window cleaner.
If there are vast amounts of rogue window cleaners trawling our neighbourhoods, why are they not on the news all the time????
You make it sound that by having a licence you are protecting the general public, howis this feat achieved???
When you apply and are granted a licence, how is the public protected from window cleaners who break health and safety laws, if you fall on someone from a great height, how is the public procted by the licence you have, the pensioner who is walking down the street, does not see your hose trailing over the pavement,they trip and fall, breaking their hip if they are lucky, how are they protected by your licence???.
None of them are, because the licence is not meant for that, but if you want the licence to protect these people then all window cleaners must go on H&S courses, before they are granted a licence, and when that happens, then the licence is in the public interest.
And it also going to cost more than £24 per year to do that as well.
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£2 a week or £0.46p a week
These amounts of money are not usually discussed on CIU. ;D
Some on here won’t clean a house for £5.00 that takes less than half hour, me included.
Maybe it is a money issue, but at least you will have a choice with trade association over a licence.
But if you don’t have to join what will that do to stop unscrupulous window cleaners…….nothing! They just won’t join and will continue to operate by under cutting decent guys trying to make a living, while they claim benefits. My point and final point is good men have to start doing something to stop this, or the industry will be overrun with these sorts, what ever it is they do, and I think licences for England would be a step in the right direction.
Just reading Hydro there….
The license enforces insurance which protect the public from accidents like that, and agreed I have said improvements are needed and if a health and safety course is that improvement and the price is doubled to £48 I am still happy to pay it, and its still less than an association, and achieve much more than any association with the backing of the governments and schemes like SLWN. Secondly the only time a window cleaner claiming benefits is going to get on the news is if it is Prince Charles estate again, between terrorist attacks and wars there is more to write about in the papers. When people are working illegitimately they won’t advertise it to you. My town is fairly big, but it’s only every couple of weeks I see other window cleaner that I know. So if Joe bloggs is doing a couple of houses for bear money, it’s unlikely I will come across them.
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i voted yes and have to say i did because it would help get rid of the doleys
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here is a link showing what some of the licence fee were in 2007 http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm
You will see that in Glasgow they have a fee of £111 while there are others councils also charging £100.
All of these figures are over 2 years old and all of these council do no extra work in making the licence scheme work.
They do not stop even 1 illegally working window cleaner.
Now do you really beleive that their fees will not rise if they have to employ more staff who have to go out and check every single window cleaner who is working.
You say that because you are licenced you are insured, but what about the cleaners who only take out insurance when their licences need renewing, which can be every 3 years.
You are lucky that you are only paying £24 but at what rate would you pay upto???
The window cleaning trade need to improve from the trade itself not from some goverment department who won't police it correctly.
We need window cleaners to be trained better, to be aware of health & safety especially there own health & safety, we need the public to be willing to pay the going rate for a good cleaning service, not for some cleaner who misses the corners and sills, a licence will not stop this, but better training and awareness of delivering a good service will.
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In Scotland, do plasterers, painter and decorators, pressure washer guys, roof cleaners, oven cleaners... etc require licenses?
No, I know they don't.
So what makes window cleaners such a target that they've got to pay to have a license to work when other trades of similar ilk don't?
Is it 'cos window cleaners can't be trusted? We're just 'burglars in disguise'? The lowest of the low and we can't be trusted and need a license? Crickey, even the dog license was binned! Are we less trusted than dogs?
What's the reason for the license?
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Licensing was brought in as there was a criminal element trading as window cleaners way back in the Glasgow ice cream wars. Edinburgh Council I believe were the first to introduce it.
It is a Safety Community Intiative. The Police are normally the ones who request that a licence be implemented in a Council area. For instance the last Council area Clacks Council, Central Scotland Police requested that it should be introduced.
I for one was glad it came along as you could go into one street and find several window cleaners in it, prices were around £2.50 for 3 bed house now we are getting £8.00 so we have seen the benefits.
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I have already given responses to these points of hydro and tosh, just read it, and
They do not stop even 1 illegally working window cleaner.
thats not true, and you realy cant state that as fact its you opinion and I do agree and have said very early on that it needs to be policed better and gave a solution which I was told was being worked on...
any way I was just wonder, do you mind if we release this as a book now... give the proceeds to charity or something ;D
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I don’t think there are many unscrupulous window cleaners relatively, but there are many unprofessional window cleaners I would say more than there are professional set ups, and that’s the problem with window cleaning.
It’s not just being a member of the FWC it’s everything else as well, rather than just sit back and complain least you can do is support your own trade association and encourage more professionalism.
Turning point would be when the public can distinguishes between the two types of window cleaners, pay the correct price for a professional or take there chances with a cowboy, customers choice always will be.
I just hate it when people blurb on about professionalism.
Many window cleaners Ewan,who have been in the game a lot longer than you,choose to run their businesses in what you may quote as unprofessional.
I think it is a damn cheek of you or anybody else to put down those who do not wish to join a trade association,or those who do not decide to invest heavily in equipement.
At the end of the day we all clean windows,and if one decides to clean with a diy set-up or a top of the range (overpriced)system as long as the job is done properly then that makes them professional.
Sit back and take time to look at wc's who drive round in cars with ladders on,in your mind they are obviously not professional,but take a look at their work you may just change your mind.
Of course there are those wc's that dont clean properly,but i bet there are a lot of "so called professional" wc's who have expensive systems that dont do a proper job either...are they still professional?
::)
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i bet there are a lot of "so called professional" wc's who have expensive systems that dont do a proper job either...are they still professional?
::)
Top post; and I strongly agree with this bit in particular. I do the insides of an 'OCS job' and you should see the mess they leave behind every month. And it is a real mess.
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Guys can I just say the Councils we have worked with it is now working and the stats are old so probably need updating.
One Council area East Ayrshire there is now around 80% licensed. The biggest problem in that area are the Nationals who are refusing to be licensed. The SLWCN lodged a complaint and now the Enforcement Officer is looking to have them all licensed with a view anyone operating in any City Centre wears their license. City Centre Managers are working on this.
We have turned the corner but it will never be perfect but close to perfection.
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No!
Please define 'a professional window cleaner', Ewan.
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No sorry i dont understand.
Are you saying that unless you have a setup that is in your mind "professional" which i presume you mean a top of the range wfp system,a nicely sign written van,a certificate to say you are a member of the fed,another certificate showing your insurance details,a uniform with your company name on and presumably a briefcase to put your sandwiches in...then you are not a professional window cleaner.
Sorry ewan this does not make you a professional in my eyes,it just means that the money you have made through window cleaning you have spent on things that you want.
It comes down to choice wether a window cleaner wants to have all the "top of the range" equipment or merely wishes to use the basic necessary tools to earn a good living.
Choice Ewan,something that a license scheme certainly will not give.
I find your posts on these matters very patronising to the hard working window cleaners who dont wish to join your club of so called professionalism.... >:(
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Sageorgeta,
Shush, let Ewan define what a 'professional window cleaner' is.
He's good for entertainment, mate; don't bite.
Just smile to yourself if you disagree with his answer.
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Ewan,
You obviously haven't a clue and just posted some waffle.
If you're going to spout 'professionalism', please define what that exactly means.
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I think if you take the time to read what has already been said by me you will realise what i think is classed as a professional window cleaner,and it is certainly not someone who has all the gadgets and all the talk....
I know two window cleaners in my area who drive a astra estate and they have a massive round both small commercial and domestic.They are allways pulling in new work,i have asked them before why they dont go wfp (as i am) but they are happy and content with the way they work.
They have a customer base of 700 + , something that i can only dream about.They pay tax,are vat registered,have pl insurance,drive a crappy old car,leave customers very happy and lead a plentiful and fruitful existance.......now tell me they are not professional,because when i went around one of their flats to buy a small part of their customer base it sure looked like they were doing the right thing.
You talk nonsense with all this professional garbage,we are all professional window cleaners because that is what we do for a living...although obviously Ewan we are not up to your heady standards....maybe we should all attend the Ewan School of window cleaning so we all reach your high standards. ::)
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Licensing was brought in as there was a criminal element trading as window cleaners way back in the Glasgow ice cream wars. Edinburgh Council I believe were the first to introduce it.
I for one was glad it came along as you could go into one street and find several window cleaners in it, prices were around £2.50 for 3 bed house now we are getting £8.00 so we have seen the benefits.
At the moment there is no war with window cleaners in England, in fact we are all friendly towards each other, as this forum can testify.
When I first started there use to be 4 cleaners who would turn up to clean a row of 12 shops, we all use to turn up at the same time on a friday morning, it was amusing.
There are now only 2 of us left and I am still charging more than the other guy.
I know one guy who charges £1 for a house, the reason is because he is a pensioner and does not need the money but likes the company of his customers, if a licence was needed he would get one and still charge the same, the same applies to the majority of cleaners in my area, they won't increase there prices because they feel they are giving value for money.
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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/professionalism
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Maybe the examples of the window cleaner you mention are very professional and they sound successful.
But like you say you’re not like them, and your definition of professionalism is only to make a profit, same as cowboys really, isn’t it.
Tosh still working on his answer.
So you have now desended to the realms of calling me a cowboy?
Well i really am gobsmacked that you have the nerve.
Of course i want to make a profit...thats why i work.
I think i read somewhere before that you started up and didnt make any money for two years (i maybe wrong)....well when i started out my main goal was to make money,call me old fashion but that is what business is about,not necesarilly having all the fancy gadgets.
You certainly can talk about what some might seem to believe a sound business background,but to me you show signs of weakness in your condescending attitude,signs that you really are not what you pretend to be.
As you have no knowledge of how i run my business will take your negative comments with a pinch of salt,probably as many others take most of your infantile posts.
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I'm sort of agreeing with ewan on this, and i'm sure many who stay silent know what he means even if he doesn't put it very well.
For a start your example was very poor. The two lads with 700 customers that are vat registered, but drive a banger and live in a flat, are not exactly my idea of a success story. Do you mean they are nice blokes who work hard and do a good job? Okay, and maybe i'm shallow, but the money side of things has to come into this and most would split this work between them and stay under the limit.
The idea of doing commercial without wfp? What?
A true professional is someone with integrity who carries it into all areas from marketing, appearance, standard of work, dealing with complaints etc.Ewan must be pretty good or he wouldn't still be around, and his low earnings for years one and two probably reflect an investment and tax strategy, rather than he's clueless.
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I don’t mind a good debate, in my mind mine and others opinions are not right or wrong they are just points of view, professional would be being courteous to that and not allowing a debate to degrade to a slagging match.
A professional window cleaner is someone who cleans windows as there profession, there lively hood. However professional window cleaners can behave in and un-professional manor, either by there conduct and/or not abiding by the law and in my opinion, that’s when they become what you call cowboys.
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I'm not in the FWC. But i do have a shiny van and wfp and top of the range poles. I have a smart appearance, signwriting and use a laptop for my round.
So if i splash out and join a federation that i have no need to do, i will become professional overnight?
Can't see any of my customers saying "i'm not using him he's not in the Fed!"
It's just windowcleaning at the end of the day - Ewan, we are hardly master craftsmen are we?
I can see a customer being more impressed with a licence or a clean record though or some proof of being trustworthy. I think signwriting goes some way to install confidence with the customer, likewise a buisiness card. They know who you are and how to contact you and you are easily spotted all over town.
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In America you have to register every business at the local town hall. That should be the case over here in my opinion.
One central database for all businesses.
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Ewan its not what anyone thinks is a professional window cleaner, hydro posted the definition from a dictionary, and that is fact not opinion. You view of a professional window cleaner being a member of the FWC is obscured and in my opinion incorrect, you can be a professional window cleaner and not have a WFP be a member of an association, have a licence if we are talking about England, have sign written van, have a uniform have a logo etc. Admittedly these things add to a professional appearance but do not define you as a professional window cleaner. Someone could have all these things from the get go if they have the money, but they are not a professional window cleaner, until they do it as there job, and are experienced enough not to be considered an amateur of there trade.
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Exactly, wfp has nothing to do with being a professional window cleaner - Ewan knows this - he's still using ladders. He's been on some training/buisiness courses and maybe attended a trade show but for some reason because he has joined the FWC he likes to goad all members on here as being unprofessional cowboys which in my opinion is a highly unprofessional thing to do ::)
The post was about licencing anyway not about who's a cowboy.
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Ewan, why don't you start a topic all about the Fed and how it can benefit windowcleaners on this forum?
I have had no interest in parting with £100 or more on something i haven't needed in over two years. Perhaps you can enlighten me on what i'm missing?
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A true professional will carry themselves and execute all works in such a way that they will leave the client satisfied that the money they have spent, was spent well and will happily recommend the tradesman to their friends and family.
If you operate at this level and with this in mind, in your every day life and don't worry about what the rest are doing your life will become succesful. It cannot fail.
There are a lot of people on here that I laugh at because they have this high and mighty attitude of professionalism but day in and day out they come on here back biting, bitching and generally being complete morons!!!
The test of the man is across all things that he does and how he represents himself in all avenues of life!!!
Some of you behave like complete clowns and then expect to be taken seriously. If half of the time spent on here was spent on business development there would be some millionaires amongst us!!!.
It is very easy to look through postings and see those that carry themselves in such a way to be professional, by their manner, responses and the way they are never drawn into the clutter.
If I sub work it will be to the silent professionals who show their calibre.
I heard a saying ' listen to the quiet man' - it is not always those that shout the loudest that say the right things. When you speak to someone who speaks softly you automatically have to sit forward (try it , it works), they have your attention and you listen.
Rob ;D
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Ewan its not what anyone thinks is a professional window cleaner, hydro posted the definition from a dictionary, and that is fact not opinion. You view of a professional window cleaner being a member of the FWC is obscured and in my opinion incorrect, you can be a professional window cleaner and not have a WFP be a member of an association, have a licence if we are talking about England, have sign written van, have a uniform have a logo etc. Admittedly these things add to a professional appearance but do not define you as a professional window cleaner. Someone could have all these things from the get go if they have the money, but they are not a professional window cleaner, until they do it as there job, and are experienced enough not to be considered an amateur of there trade.
Your missing the point.
I think I hit the nail on the head and also agree with M-Clean's look at it, but please enlighten me more.
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Sorry Ewan you have not enlightened me anymore my friend, you are still giving of a condescending attitude and appear to think that if you drive a ford escort estate you cant be a professional, I think it is you that is missing the point. All the things you say makes a professional can be bought; my definition is someone with integrity, knowledge. But I think I am going to leave it there, we have gone way of topic and I think this thread was settled about a page ago. The votes are in, and I concur.
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All the things you say makes a professional can be bought; my definition is someone with integrity, knowledge.
I agree, he's confusing integrity with image.
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Okay, on the one hand I disagree with licencing in England. It would only be adding beaurocracy and cost where it's not needed.
But on the other hand, I reckon I know one-or-two part time window cleaners who are probably not declaring their window cleaning income to the tax man.
Now, if a license was introduced, and there was some form of communication between the licensing office and the tax man; those window cleaners who have 'proper jobs' and work part time as window cleaners would find it more difficult to conceal their income; especially if 'us' window cleaners with licenses policed the licenses held by new window cleaners.
Other than that, I can't see the point of it; and there's no guarantees that one government department can or will share information with another.
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No I’m not. ::)
It’s not me that’s confused.
i think you have spent your whole life a little confused ::)
shame :-\
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Okay, on the one hand I disagree with licencing in England. It would only be adding beaurocracy and cost where it's not needed.
But on the other hand, I reckon I know one-or-two part time window cleaners who are probably not declaring their window cleaning income to the tax man.
Now, if a license was introduced, and there was some form of communication between the licensing office and the tax man; those window cleaners who have 'proper jobs' and work part time as window cleaners would find it more difficult to conceal their income; especially if 'us' window cleaners with licenses policed the licenses held by new window cleaners.
Other than that, I can't see the point of it; and there's no guarantees that one government department can or will share information with another.
I agree with Tosh, but I also think if England goes the way of Licensing, it shouldn't be up to us window cleaners to police it as this could cause problems. Each council should make sure each house occupant knows to ask for a licence and is fully aware that they shouldn't employ anyone without one (perhaps a fine for them, after all they would probably be employing dole boys) There should be extensive newspaper coverage and perhaps TV coverage to educate people. Only then when people are fully aware we just might see some difference.
I for one voted yes to licensing once again purely for the dole boys and beer money brigade who take a lot of work off the rest of us.
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Now, if a license was introduced, and there was some form of communication between the licensing office and the tax man; those window cleaners who have 'proper jobs' and work part time as window cleaners would find it more difficult to conceal their income; especially if 'us' window cleaners with licenses policed the licenses held by new window cleaners.
Other than that, I can't see the point of it; and there's no guarantees that one government department can or will share information with another.
So whats the point of paying for a licence, when to make it work effectivly, we have to police it.
At the moment you can inform your local inland revenue office about these part time window cleaners without the need to pay for the privilage.
A lot of the people who are shouting for a licence are only doing it because they think that the part-timers and dole-boys will dissappear and they will cream up the whole neighbourhood.
This is not going to happen, even if all of the councils employed thousands of enforcment officers to police it.
This has been proven in the other licence schemes that are now in place.
There are still Taxi drivers who are not insured or licenced, yet the police and the local council regulary carry out spot checks.
There are still many gas fitters who are not Corgi Registred who carry on working on gas boilers and they can go to prison if they are caught, yet the corgi licence has not stopped them.
There are thousands and thousands of people who watch tv's yet they can be fined £1000s' or go to prison, there are also hundreds of detector vans on the streets every day, but they cannot stop it.
So do you really think that a window cleaning licence is going to be more effective than the other licence schemes, that are failing day after day.
You will say, "well it will catch a few" and yes it will and these few will be replaced by others, who see a harmless and easy way of making money.
There are already many ways and methods of stopping these people working in our industry, why not use them, or do you really want to pay out your hard earned money and still have to police the licence as well.
Even if the law was changed and the customers' were held responsible for employing an un-licenced window cleaner, it still would not stop the part timers or dole boys.
If you want to prove to your customers that you are trustworthy, then you can apply to your local police for a copy of any details they hold on you, its the same form that you need to have if you want to go to the USA and have a past record, you can then give each of you customers a copy, I don't think that many will be that bothered, but at least you will feel better and it is only going to cost you £10.
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This thread is 7 pages long so I've not read every page and post written, my apologies if I cover something already said....
I don't agree with licencing per se, it isn't well policed in Scotland and it also means there are often conditions attached, ie, got a criminal record? Then forget it! No licence for you!!
But I do think that all businesses and not just window cleaning should be registered (as stated on a previous page) like the Americans do.
This doesn't mean getting a licence as such but it does mean that you are at least recorded as having a business doing window cleaning/decorating/bricklaying/mechanic...whatever.
Exactly how it would work I don't know! Somehow linked to the tax office I suppose, and of course linked to the local council.
Maybe it won't stop those claiming benefits completely, but at least if you see someone you suspect of operating without being registered then...whatever their trade, then at least they can be checked out.
A licence has to be renewed at further cost, but simple registration need only be updated should you move house and so on and of course if you finish in whatever job it is you do then you should also be required to de-register.
But who polices it??
Mmm....well I suppose it really comes down to any authorised people to do so; the police might have a report of someone and feel their collar and check their details, maybe a health and safety officer or other council official might see a trader and ask to check out their details.
Maybe not that different from a licence as such I know but when you submit your tax details you register your business with them as it is, but of course there is no way for anyone to know if you are a bona fide business or not.
But if you are also registered with your local authorities then at least it makes it easier to to be checked out.
The problem with 'applying for a licence' is that you have to supply no end of personal info and someone or some committee will decide on your suitability, having the power to either grant or deny you said licence.
But who the hell has the right to decide whether I can be a window cleaner or not? Or a car mechanic?
Most of us who are already bona fide window cleaners are only really interested in weaning out the dole cheats...aren't we?
Ian
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yes and disabled ????
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Ewan,
Your last post has been removed, you can't come on here and infer someone is an arrogant prat.
RE-post if you must but keep your reply polite AND professional.
Antagonistic argument is not wanted on the forum.
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De-lurking to say a resounding NO to licensing.
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So whats the point of paying for a licence, when to make it work effectivly, we have to police it.
At the moment you can inform your local inland revenue office about these part time window cleaners without the need to pay for the privilage.
I reckon the police/council have things that they consider more important to do with their time than to spend limited resources on checking that window cleaners have licenses.
Therefore the only people who could 'police' a license would be bona fide window cleaners with licenses.
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So whats the point of paying for a licence, when to make it work effectivly, we have to police it.
At the moment you can inform your local inland revenue office about these part time window cleaners without the need to pay for the privilage.
I reckon the police/council have things that they consider more important to do with their time than to spend limited resources on checking that window cleaners have licenses.
Therefore the only people who could 'police' a license would be bona fide window cleaners with licenses.
If thats the case and I agree with you, then there is no point in us paying for a licence, all we have to do is let the revelent authorities know the details of the cleaners, we suspect are trading as a window cleaner when they shouldn't be.
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For those who would like licensing, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
The more regulation you introduce, the more you invite the costs. For instance if a trade is worth regulating, it's worth taxing. As far as I am aware in Britain you don't have to charge VAT on every customer, if that happened you would lose 15% on your price in one go. If you didn't include VAT in your price then that would mean VAT evasion.
Before you know it your tax bills would be alot more seriously looked at.
The main reason I mention this is ENVY!. I wish it would be so easy on the continent to start a business as it seems to be in the UK. Would any of you lads be happy for tight regulation as this, if it meant cutting down the dodgey/dole cheaters?
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Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.
Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....
who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?
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Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.
Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....
who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?
If it degrades to name calling it should be deleted, and I really cant see anything that Ian has said there that would cause offense to someone?
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FWC is the authoritative organisation for window cleaners that is recognised, if that doesn’t sit well with some individuals on here and they made the decision not to be a member that’s there choice,
The FWC appears to me to be a self-serving organisation. Don't you remember when Philip Hanson asked to look at their accounts (which is something any member can do), yet they put him off, giving him excuse after excuse till his membership ran out; then they wouldn't renew it!
Therefore he couldn't look at their accounts! (Philip Hanson was an ex-accountant and the editor of the Professional Window Cleaning Magazine at the time).
What did they have to hide?
Then what was that business about the sale of their property, which sounded like some executive members made a lot of money; but it was all shushed up? I don't know the full story on this mind.
So I'm not going to part with my hard-earned to give to some organisation that has intangible benifits for me, but a lot of benifits for the organisers.
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yep good idea, maybe £250 a year
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Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.
Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....
who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?
I used the word "de-lurking" in this thread. I wasn't aware it had another meaning.
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the Lurkers from 78
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG_uWZxKaoU
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I suppose it has lots of meanings. I've always found the word funny and like your use of it. It was really just a device to get ian when he wasn't expecting it.
It's a tradition on this forum to attack the mods.
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Re lurking and amusing use of the word de-lurking, it refers mainly to the two main selling techniques of a street or market trader. One is to stand out the front and greet people, the other is to lurk unseen or unnoticed and then when some one shows any interest shoot out and . march them into the shop to make a purchase. George Cole as a spiv in the early st trinians hid in bushs' and then shot out when someone metioned nylons.
Which of course brings me to Ian Giles, lurking mod, who suddenly leaps out and deletes peoples comments, and then has the gaul to say....
who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?
Slumpbuster, if I read a post that can be considered flaming then I'll delete it, myself or Dave can't read every post written on here, but when we come across one that goes against the spirit of the forum then it has to go.
When a few are noted by the same author then we tend to check back on their previous posts and check on their tone.
In the past some people have been antagonistic in a great many of their replies, some people will read them and will be put off posting for fear of being attacked or derided.
Sometimes it is just because someone is angry and simply needs to be pulled up, unfortunately many hide their email addresses so what would have been a private word to tone things down becomes a public one on the open forum.
As for the comment I made that you referred to, if you read my post it should have been obvious that when I said
'who the hell has the right to decide whether i can be a window cleaner or not?'
it was aimed at whatever committee might be appointed to decide whether or not I was suitable material to be licenced as a window cleaner.....should I ever have to apply for a licence that is!
Ian
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FWC is the authoritative organisation for window cleaners that is recognised, if that doesn’t sit well with some individuals on here and they made the decision not to be a member that’s there choice,
The FWC appears to me to be a self-serving organisation. Don't you remember when Philip Hanson asked to look at their accounts (which is something any member can do), yet they put him off, giving him excuse after excuse till his membership ran out; then they wouldn't renew it!
Therefore he couldn't look at their accounts! (Philip Hanson was an ex-accountant and the editor of the Professional Window Cleaning Magazine at the time).
What did they have to hide?
Then what was that business about the sale of their property, which sounded like some executive members made a lot of money; but it was all shushed up? I don't know the full story on this mind.
So I'm not going to part with my hard-earned to give to some organisation that has intangible benifits for me, but a lot of benifits for the organisers.
Tosh
At the time the FWC could question the motives of Philip Hanson, not saying there was any, but they could question it.
Also dont you think it was a coincidence that the APWC was formed after all the hype on the forum, dont you think everyone was beaten into a frenzy of Fed bashing.
If I was a fed committee man at the time i would not of bowed down to any of it.
Yes some of the fed committee members did benefit from the sale of the building , but they had no greater entitlement than any other Assurance society member at that time. All Assurance society members got equal pay outs, you have to remember it was the society who owned the building and not the fed.
The Fed is now run without owning any assets and there is nothing left for anyone to profit from, There are some great committee members at the moment and they are all working hard to make the fed better, as an employer i find the advice the fed offer second to none. Even as an individual i would reccommend them as a way of enhancing your business profile.
I get asked lots of times how i have grown my business and one point where people dont believe me is when i say one thing you need to do is to show professionalism and one way of doing that is to be accredited to some organisations.
Just pick up any tender document and you will know where i am coming from, Increasingly you get the question, what quality assurances/ h&S assurance/ monitoring proccesses do you have in place and what accreditations or trade organisations do you belong to ?
Why do you think they ask these questions and what weight do you think they carry ? for me they are priceless.
I have 4 badges , soon to more and i would say having a relevent trade accreditation is a must for my business.
Dave
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Dave,
As I understand it; what-ever Philip Hanson's motives were for wanting to see the FWC's accounts; he had a right to do so under their rules.
But the FWC kept on 'putting him off' until his membership ran out, then refused to renew it and wouldn't let him look at the accounts.
Why? If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to hide. I've ran the accounts for a large organisation; and I'd've shown them to anyone! Why? Because I had nothing to hide!
What did the FWC have that they wanted to hide? Expensive dinners at posh restaraunts and putting it through the books as 'entertainment expenses'?
Who knows? They wouldn't let Philip see them!
=====================================================
And with regards to the sale of the FWC's premises; you've indicated that some committee members made money (probably a lot since it was sold at the peak of the property market), but it would be interesting to know how much they were paying for the FWC premises prior to the sale, and what they're paying now; probably rental costs?
I bet it's a lot more; and it's FWC members who're paying for it; when (maybe and probably); the office accommodation could've been more cost effective without the sale.
I mean, if these committee members were so concerned with window cleaners, wouldn't it make sense to keep the cheaper premises, rather than rent somewhere at a higher cost which the members have to pay for?
I say again, I won't pay into the FWC which may have intangible benifits for me, but many benifits for certain members of the committee.
At least that's the way it looks to me.
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So can the mods just lock and unlock threads at will then!!!!!!!!!
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Yes of course; they can also amend and/or delete them.
There's also a seperate area of the forum they can discuss 'us posters too'; I used to be privy to it when I was a mod, and we'd talk about certain members if we thought they were being naughty.
For example, posts in the moderators area were stuff like , 'KEEP AN EYE ON YWCS - HE'S PROBABLY A COMMUNIST', and others of similiar ilk.
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Tosh
The FED have legal requirements where they cant abuse members money, they are covered by certain legislation.
Would you have handed over your accounts to who you thought might be a potential competitor, and be dictated to, i certainly wouldn't.
PH membership was revoked, which the Fed were entitled to do.
In the last 4 years I have seen both sides of the coin and know the ins and outs of the full story.
At the time there was lots of suspicion and paranoia, just like the Russians and the Americans in the cold war, do you think either side would fully disclose what was going on behind closed doors.
As for Building ownership, do you keep the money locked up, or do you release it for member benefits, just have a look at whats been achieved in the last 4 years.
Anyway the fed has nothing to do with me, but i know it is good for my business, and I like the people running it and I trust them, I also know there hearts are in the right place and a lot more can be achieved.
YWCS
Why you frowning, you look like you think i am abusing the privelidge or something, hang on I will frown back
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Here Goes
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Hows that >:(
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Dave, I'll trust your judgement on the FWC, since you obviously know far more about it (and the saga) than I do.
I shall not be negative about them in the future.
Regards,
Tosh.
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YWCS
For your information, I have not locked a single post for about 6 weeks , nor do i ever lock a thread unless I can t be bothered to unpick all the swearing and insultive posts.
Hang on i feel another frown coming on
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>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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The person who created the thread can also lock a post, also it has been known to accidently lock a post as my post button is right next to my lock button.
You also see as it was pointed out to me it was instantly unlocked without any fuss, just look at Toshs other post where he locked it himself.
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Ask Tosh about me, he knows me, ask anyone who knows me they will tell you I am chilled, ask my staff, nothing dictatorial about me whatsoever.
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Yes, and I still think licensing for England is a bad idea. Just look at what the poor Sweaties (Jocks) moan about where you have different licensing areas; zoned too; so you don't just pay for one license; but a multitude of them depending on the areas you work in.
PS.
Dave is a proper big barstewart; big guy, big mouth; not shy!
And I feel safe typing this behind my computer screen at least 100 miles from where he can find me.
;D
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I dont think anyone would have any bother finding u tosh with ur outfits ;D
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OK back to the original question.
If the licence was introduced into England, Wales and Northern Ireland and it was enforced with all the powers that the councils have and can apply, these are some of the ideas they might use.
1 They can break their areas into different zones, and you will end up paying to work in each zones, instead of just 1 council area (this is already happening).
2 They can dictate what vechicle you should use, so for you who use a car to carry your ladders, you might have to buy a van.
3 They can dictate that your vechicle undergoes a separate vechicle road safety test (this will affect those who use wfp)
4 You will have a search carried out on your past, and if it is not squeaky clean, you could find yourself out of business.
5 They could have different fees for the type of work you do (domestic or commercial being charged differently)
6 They could insist that you have a yearly medical, which you will have to pay for.
7 They could insist that all your equipment is inspected and tested every year (you will have to pay for this)
8 If you have not upto date on your Council Tax Bill, they could revke your licence (this is also being carried out)
9 If you are a council tenant and you are behind on your rent, they could revoke your licence.
10 If you owe a council parking fine, your licence could be revoked.
11 They could insist that you are trained in the safe way of using ladders or wfp (you will have t pay for this)
The list goes on and on, on what they could do, and they might not do all of the above, but I bet they will do some of them.
If you want a licence and you want that licence to work, then it is going to cost you, and the fees that are being charged at the moment are not enough to cover that cost, so the fees will have to be increased.
Vote YES at your own PERIL, because as soon as the licence happens, there is no going back.
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It would prevent them from going after commercial work as it would be illegal to employ them.
do you think a business cares? i know loads of people in scotland large comapnies working for banks who dont have a licence.
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I voted no. I am an ex construction worker who has seen CSCS be forced upon us with no real benefit to the tradesman, just a money spinner for the government which is really what these licences will end up being. They wont stop the wc that we would rather see out of the trade for claiming benefits and working etc etc just like part p has not stopped none licenced sparkys wiring your bathrooms up.
Its madness, you should not need a licence to be a chippy, spread, sparky or a wc. I do agree that something needs to be done to try and stop the cowboys/uninsured etc.
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I think most people look into the license in a negative way instead of a positive way. What is it you want from the licence and lets be reasonable here and not for personnel interest.
You need to take your window cleaning hats off and put your business hat on and find what would grow your business.
Lets take for example a National licence, what are the benefits to me the sole trader. Not much as a National licence would cost a lot more than a single licence, probably around £400 per year. The only people it would benefit would be the Nationals. I only work in 5 areas so total cost to me would be around £200.
Now business head on protecting the sole trader like myself. A lot of local window cleaners are loosing business as corperate businesses are now issuing contracts as a National contract. Before it used to be the local store manager that found the local window cleaner. This is now disappearing as local businesses cannot compete with Nationals.
Now if a National had the contract and was able to pay for a National licence they would probably keep the work in house. If they had to fork out on individual licences then they would more than likely tender it out to the local window cleaner. In the end the local window cleaner wins with a single licence.
There are two sides to every story but you need to way the pros and cons. There are more sole traders than Nationals so in theory it should benefit the sole trader than the National. This is just one example of many
What we all have to think what would improve our industry.
Now the big issue which a lot have, COUNCILS DO NOT HAVE THE FINAL SAY IN RUNNING THE LICENCE. This is where a strong body needs to represent window cleaners and repel any changes they bring in that can damage the industry. IT CAN BE DONE.
The only time when it cannot if it has already been passed as law which makes it harder to reverse.
Licensing or whatever tool this industry needs can be achieved to benefit us but it will not please all as it is human nature to be negative and never look at the positive benefits.
These are just my thoughts but no one yet has said if licensing was to be introduced they want it run this way. We just look at the issues with Councils and as I have said they do not have the final say. We the members of the public have more power but you need to know what proceedures to go through.
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all fair but no one is punishing the big nationals at all. They clean all public building just about plus the parliament also. They do what they want and the councils dont give a flying feck man!!
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;) Yes they are and they are now getting very unhappy.
Quite a few pics of Mitie up and down the country are sitting in "to be caught" box of the local authorities :)
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what about them other mobs i told ye about?
also whats the drill with having to go all the way through to west lothian to have my pic taken. >:(
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I did hear local community Police Officers in some areas of North Lanark have been checking window cleaners. The mob you informed us seem to be licensed but checking if they have licensed their employees.
There is nothing on the West Lothian application stating you need to go there to have your pic taken, who gave you this info please.
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woman on the phone told me i had to go through to their offices to have picture taken. Shge said they changed it a fe wmonths ago. It seems they do what they want
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I voted yes and would be in favour if it was enforced. But, I doubt it would be and I doubt it would even happen.
Good idea though.
Does it stop the doley, beer money gang in Scotland???
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bump for DA can you find out about this west lothian cooncil >:(
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Will do. I'm with you one this one and 100% sure it is illegal what they are doing. What tends to happen some trade must be scamming the system eg:Taxi Drivers but it does not warrant doing it for all trades.
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50 mile round trip for me to go there for a daft picture
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DA any further info before i have to make this drive for my picture to be taken
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Nothing in my in box yet.
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if you hea rof anything let me know becaus ei cannot be bothered to be driving all that way for my pic to be taken. ideally a contact name would be superb whom i could speak to and ge tit sorted out
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To answer the original question...
Get stuffed.
I don't need to prove myself and have a license to clean windows.
Safety glasses for kids playing conkers...
No photography at airports or stations...
Can't use ladders...
Plastic glasses in pubs...
What next? ::)
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A national id card to prove who you are. :(
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A national id card to prove who you are. :(
Good point there but,ID card would make the Jeremy Kyle muppets jump. You could not only trace them when they admit to spending benefits on dope and booze, it would stop your dodgey beer crew cleaning windows.
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To answer the original question...
Get stuffed.
I don't need to prove myself and have a license to clean windows.
Safety glasses for kids playing conkers...
No photography at airports or stations...
Can't use ladders...
Plastic glasses in pubs...
What next? ::)
Speed humps on motorways.