Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Philip Hanson on April 01, 2005, 06:46:08 pm
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If you don't have a pole system, let's hear your thoughts about them. Do you think they're a load of rubbish? Are you contemplating buying one? Are you confused by the options?
Most of the window cleaners I meet who use ladders say they would like to get one eventually, but haven't got around to looking into it all just yet.
What's your thoughts?
-Philip
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The only thing that worries about a pole system, having now got over the shock of the cost, is that we have picked up quiet a lot of work from properties that weren't happy with WFP's.
What ever any one posts here about them being better - that still concerns me but just to not have to go up ladders ..... sigh .......
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Did you manage to find out the circumstances of why they wern't happy ? Could it have been an inexperienced pole user...or probably a first clean ? Or was it (as I've had) 'I don't like all the mess'.....what mess ?... a bit of water on the outside ? What do you do when it rains ? ......people are funny....they don't like change, or anything new. Sometimes they just need to be taken by the hand and gently educated. That sounds really patronising, I know...but sometimes.....(customers that is...not you guys.....he said, digging himself out of a hole...lol)
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I'm not sure, had to let some work go cause I havent got one but even the cheapest is alot of money and it would take a long time to pay for itself.
I hear mainly good things about them, the negative concern me but mostly its all the hassle of finding somewhere in my shed to get the water filtered.
I would prefer to build my own and save some money, but need to find out ho to do so.
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ok, way to go...you should be able to find out all you need to know through these message boards and the links they post. Might take a bit of reading though....there's loads of good information out there....
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Hi Duke
Two didn't want WFP's because their carpets and curtains ended up wet and they were both houses with old sash cord windows.
One customer tripped over the hosing (or whatever it's called) and got into an arguement with the w/c. Some were because 'it just don't seem right' type of reasoning but most were because of the poor quality of work.
I've never asked anyone any more detaills but I will do in future.
We recently picked up three close together jobs all done by the same w/c who went over to poles and to me, the windows looked spotless.
I think what it is maybe is that whilst out working we will only hear negative comments from customers as that is why they contacted us in the first place.
I hope so.
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yeah, that'll be it I reckon....I get people the opposite...like the idea and want me....funny old world...
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Ordered mine just waiting for delivery should be early next week hopefully.
Got all my RO/DI filters all set up and 400ltr storage tank.
Has a small problem i connected my RO up to my toilet systern as it was the closest water pipe.
switched on 2 hours later only 2 ltrs of water i thought o christ i spent all this money to find i can't make enough water.
Got onto the supplier of my RO and said the water pressure is to low the reason is it's not on a mains supply but comming from a tank in the attic.
So tomorrow got to change it over to a mains supply probably get moaned by the wife as i have to drill through two walls but its in a good cause
Paul
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If the cost of buying wfp is a problem heres what I did.
50 pence on every clean x 350 cleans = £175.00 a month extra x 12 months = £2100.00 extra per year with no loss of revenue to yourself.
I have spent £3000.00 so far on my system but the majority of it will be paid by the customer base.
Rob
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well im going to get wfp but am worried it doesnt do as good a job. Much of my work is georgian sash windows. Are you saying that wfp doesnt work on these? why???
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They do work on Sash windows matter of fact on every window, you just need to know how to clean them correctly with a WFP. They do take abit longer thou on sash windows thats all.
Justin
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I'm quite keen to get into WFPs but it is confusing, there is no doubt about that.
My problem is my wife who is totally unconvinced by the whole idea. She believes that the customers will never pay good money to have their windows cleaned by a bloke with a "bog brush on a broom handle"
She belives they will not regard it as a proper job. To that end she may be right. I am very tradidional and still finish off with a shammy etc although its more for show than good window cleaning its what the customers like to see.
Loads of people have commented on it over the years.
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my problem is my wife who is totally unconvinced by the whole idea. She believes that the customers will never pay good money to have their windows cleaned by a bloke with a "bog brush on a broom handle.
LOL :) :)
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my problem is my wife who is totally unconvinced by the whole idea. She believes that the customers will never pay good money to have their windows cleaned by a bloke with a "bog brush on a broom handle.
LOL :) :)
i liked that aswell
infact i might use it on a flyer lol
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Sash windows can be awkward, but the biggest problem is when their frames have oxidised.
You also have to take care on the lower sash not to spray water up into the gap between the 2 sashes.
But oxidisation can be a problem on any window, even mild oxidisation can cause spotting.
Fortunately it is only a small percentage of painted or aluminium windows that have this problem.
Changing long held existing customers over to WFP won't be easy, you will probably lose a few, but you should aslo begin picking up new ones because you DO have WFP.
There is a steep learning curve needed though, and that can be part of the problem :-\ It takes a while to become good at what you are doing.
I've been going for 12 months with my system, for quite some time now I would say that in most cases, even on a first time clean I will do a top job, something you will struggle do in the first few weeks of first time cleans.....and of course everything for a month is a first time clean :o :o
Ian
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More money I suppose, so maybe the trad guys can stick to sash?
Graham.
Gee , thanks.
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Most of my customers are spread out and all domestic...so how will it save me time setting up to clean one house, maybe a terrace with 3 sash windows? Traditional methods mean it maybe only takes 4-6 minutes for a £5 charge. Theoretically I could charge more but as I understand things, it would take 5 minutes just to unravel the hose and setup the wfp.
Mark
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Have a look at the backpacks, fastest thing out there.
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Yes i completely understand. 50% of my work is houses with sash windows many with naff paint so what do i do get the gear just for 50% of my work just to keep the hse happy? Man life is so complicated!! ???
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No.Carry on in a safe manner as you usually do.
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:) The trad way will be always a tough one to follow its been around for many years,
and still will be,I think it all comes down to the work you have and are doing at the present,it is a cost of out lay to say the least,it will always be a mixed bag,some like it,some cant stand it,some think by the time you have unrolled this pulled out that!
the trad way you would have been done and gone,so it all comes down to you,and personal choice,and if you have the work to support it.and it is an on going cost,
you pay your money and takes your choice. ??? :-\
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I am building the system bit by bit and now i just need to buy a backpack and pole to be complete! THANK U GUYS for the info re:best kit to buy!!
I can't wait! the anticipation is killing me, i'm like a kid with a new toy!
i've explanned to my customers about new regs with working at heights and how i'm going to be cleaning with wfp and they seem intriged by the new system and pleased that i'm off the ladders!
They were manly sold over by the fact i was changing to wfp due to legislation on the 6th april, so if they have any quarms it's gonna be with the law and not me!!!
The only negative feedback i've encountered is from the missus '''what the heck is that huge white industial thingymajig and hoses and filters doing setup on the patio what are doing setting up a Flipping LABORATORY in my garden ???' but she's coming round......we'll see........eh!
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Well the best of luck to you.I personely have been there & done it & returned to trad method.I earn a d**n site more & keep my customers & myself happier without the day to day hastle of wfp.
I come home from work & chuck my scrims & microfibres into the washing machine every other day & change my rubber (oooer) & I'm ready for my next days work.
No extra work apart from the books which take 2 mins if I'm honest.
Honestly, good luck with it.
But please do me a favour & don't harp on about the safety aspect as myself & a lot of others are sick to the back teeth with it.
In every single job you come across people who are good at there job & people who generally don't give a toss.THESE people are the ones who 99% of the time muck up & have "accidents".I know loads of window cleaners in my area & not one of them have had an accident or mishap that wasn't there own falt through being daft.
I personally have never had 1 mishap.I am very fast,good at my job & VERY careful with all of my performance at work.Probably because I am responsible for what I do & nobody else.
I have an "A" frame ladder which in my opinion is the safest, most vital & most secure piece of equipment a window cleaner can use.It is secured at the top via the grooved rubber bung at the top & the splayed feet prevent twisting.
Just like any piece of equipment made for the job, if used correctly by somebody competent,then it does what it is supposed to do.
Rant over (until I get somebody who can't even clean windows using the trad method telling me I am wrong).
Keep smiling ;D
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I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that WFP seems most suited to largish commercial work and upstairs windows that fit ok.
Last month I was all for it.
The month before I dismissed it somewhat.
Last Saturday out of 14 jobs only 2 could have been done with poles top to bottom.
I feel like a sunshine or rain barometer at the moment with regards WFP.
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Justin,
Couldn't agree with you more about accidents, when used properly ladders are fine, it is almost always the users own fault.
I can't be bothered to extol the virtues again of WFP (well ok, just a little bit then ;)) but once you have got through the learning curve, whether doing domestic or commercial, its at least 30% quicker overall.
It's also much easier too.
Stuff safety, that bit is obvious and doesn't need continually harping on about, but it is handy to sell it to a customer (I don't overplay that either by the way) I just love the fact that life is easier for me now.
It has its frustrations, both methods do, I still use traditional, but I no longer climb ladders (other than my 6ft pointer).
Each to his own I say! And the longer it takes for the local competition to include WFP in their repetoire the better ;D
Ian
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im like justin and Ross. One minute im up for it and the next i cant be bothered!! I know 40-50% of my work isnt suited for it! But feel pressured to get it cos of the new regs! Im hopefully getting a scudo/expert or dispatch this week and will be then looking at the gear, but like jusatin and Ross im not convinced and if it wasnt for the regs then i wouldnt even entertain it! I just dont wanna face a fine for walking along a sloping roof or something daft!
I feel exactly the same as Justin in the sense i can go out and am v.fast with a squeegy and can earn good money then come home and thats the end of it. My time is mine and my famillies!
Call me wrong but im under the impression that there are many window cleaners who are bored with the job and this wfp gear has given them a new lease of life and they like all the gadgetry and all the flaffing around with connectors here and pumps there!
But i wonder if after all the expense and hassle of keeping it all going you really are earning much more. If you knock of the expense and time of running it all against your increased earnings is it really that much better? On a domestic round i doubt it.
I reckon i will still use ladders most of the time when i get kitted out and will use the wfp as another string to my bow. What i will be looking for is a couple of monster contracts so it hasnt all been a waste of time!!
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that saddens me....but it's your thread trad guy's...
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first full day polling today.the job took me about an hour longer. but the job i did was better as i cleaned the frames .where as i usually just do the sills.the windows did spot hear and there a bit ,but the windows did look polished ,shinier than usual.
bit wierd not going up the ladders after 15 years
eddie
essex
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changed over to wfp 6 weeks ago. lost about 20 customers so far. mostly whingers or tops only. so not too botherd. some of them will come back. on the plus side im picking up 5 new customers a day because of new van and wfp. today i pulled on to a street i av been doin for 4 years, and i hav allways just had 1 customer even tho i av canvassed the area twice in 4 years. picked up twelve new customers because it looks profesional with the sighnwritten van and wfp. i couldnt belieave it.
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Mark F,
You are right in one thing, I was one of those window cleaners that had enough of the job, 20 years in, 48 years old, worthless personal pension, to old to retrain and get a job that could pay me as well for the hours I would work compared to that of a window cleaner.
A few close calls with the ladder, and as you get older you become more aware of your own mortality.
I could see myself climbing ladders for the rest of my life, retirement? don't think so :-\
Took the plunge into WFP, best thing I have ever done bar none.
Income up 5 grand over the last financial year, I don't mind saying that either, not looking forward to the extra tax I'm going to have pay though :-[
And I've still got room for growth too.
Ian
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Well said Ian, always room for growth. (though hopefully not sideways)....Mortality ? I don't know how I'm still here......gawd bless the pole....
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Hi Ian
£5 000 - very impressive.
That is good going.
Having yo-yo'd in another posting away from WFP I'm now yo-yoing back in favour of WFP's.
Life has it's predicaments doesn't it. ???
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mmmmmmmmm food for thought hey!? But i bet most of that 5k is due to your renewed enthusiasm as opposed to wfp............anyway when i get mine we shall see hey!
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well mixed receptions all around there about the WFP.
Went out today for the first time ive ever used my pole, as duke knows it came today and i said to 5 customers, look im gonna practice on ur windows ill come back tomorrow and if your happy u can pay me. that way i know if the job i have done is good.
Another thing about the pole on the first day was, it did seem to be depressing in a lot of ways because i was thinking well this is to much faffing about, taking ages to swap poles for bottom windows etc and getting round backs, trolley getting trapped or cars in way so cant get round.
Did take me an hour and 15 mins longer for the 5 than it would have done, due to regular fill ups and so forth.
I am new at it though, and i do need a longer hose on it so that i can just rush on with it instead of carting the trolley here there and everywhere. That way ill save time.
I cant see myself properly ditching the ladders though as since ive been window cleaning for 5 yrs ive been bettering myself all the time and i know i can go out and earn some serious cash with them.
I know one thing though the pole will come in handy for some commercial work i have, but unless i match my speed residentially with it i may just stick to ladders for now, just to be on safe side. They have got me where i am now so ill stick with them.
Im one of them switched to the pole because everyone else has and heard good things about them, but ill just see how it goes if i dont like it ill just do big houses and commercial with it. but now ive got it im glad i spent the cash, its a good little extra to have and its a good piece of equipment that looks the part and makes people think ur running a successful business.
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It is not a them and us decision, WFP is a tool within your box of other tools, a bloody good tool if used right, but like every tool, it is there to provide for a specific purpose.
We use ladders, we use WFP van mount systems, we use WFP trolley systems, we use scrim, we use microfibre and I will continue to use and try anything new that comes on the market if I think it will improve our business in some way.
WFP is seen as a big investment for a lot of people because in the past there biggest extravagance was along the lines of buying pre-washed scrim instead of unwashed or Fairy Liquid instead of Asda Saver!!
Look on the carpet cleaning threads, to just get started in that business you are looking at investing upwards of £3000 just on a basic machine. I have just ordered a new CFR upholstery cleaning tool, which is basically a couple of pieces of hose with a spray jet at one end... best part of £400 with the conversion kit. And all just to leave suites dryer quicker!!
You may not use your WFP system all the time but if you want to get into any commercial work, you will need to have one very soon.
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yep thats how i hope it will work out. I may go on a course to cos i cant believe there isnt a way round it so as to get sash windows etc done to a good standard.
The way i see it is if im up a ladder and i get collared i can say " well i have all the gear but cant use it here cos of this or that reason".
And then on the stuff i can use it i will. Just seems such hassle when i just view my job as quick money so i can do other things i want. Window cleaning will never be my life hence i cant get enthused by all this stuff! Anyhow we shall see.
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D G Windows,
As a base indicator of speed, read the following ;)
Monday (4th April) I had 3 domestic accounts to squeeze into my commercial round.
All three were stand alone accounts, all £8.00 each.
Pulled up at the first one at 12:17pm, at one point some guys doing landscaping next door chatted to me for 5 minutes asking about the system.
The house was a 3 bed detached, georgian on the front, standard UPVC on the back.
Second house was 500m up the road, 3 bed semi, all UPVC, builder next door chatted to me this time, lost 5 minutes talking to him too >:(
Had to do a little gardening, a woody shrub was all over one window so I did a little impromptu pruning by snapping of the offending branches and burying them in the bowels of the bush ;D
So a little more time lost :-\
Third house was about a mile away, another 3 bed semi, and this time no one talked to me and caused any distractions.
Checked the time when I got back iin the car to drive off after packing everything away........Time taken for all 3 accounts?............well I was driving off and the clock was on 1:14pm, so three accounts, with distractions, all stand alone with a fair old distance having to be covered still only took me 57 minutes.
Without pruning or talking to others that would have been at the very least 10 minutes quicker.
I use the Unger poles, and it is the work of a moment to either unclip the brush head and attach it to a short pole, or to just hold the brush by itself, the assembly gives you a reach of about a foot or so.
But even with the other systems, you do the tops, pop the quick release at the junction between main hose and pole hose and swap it for the the pole hose on the shorter pole, what could be easier?
Often with trad you are carting about 2 ladders, your extention ladder and your pointer ladder, plus bucket of water.
Its all a learning curve, you adapt and find the quickest and easiest method of getting around whatever property you are cleaning.
Ian
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true...and I rarely even use the short pole now....the 24 footer...collapsed...seems to reach everything fine anyway....ok, sometimes I have to use it sideways or even upside down....but it gets there and saves time on pole switching. The only time I seem to use the short pole now...is either big bungalows (coz it's lighter and I don't need the height)...or when I want to wash the van...great for that !!!!
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washing the van theres an idea im going doing it now with the pole might aswell lol
my vans filthy, cant wash it thru car wash and that cos of gap in door cos someone tried to rob it oops.
Cheers for reminder duke :)
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Hi Ian
Very interesting posting.
That's exactly the type of info I'm after as I'm thinking albeit in a yo-yoing off and on fashion about going over to WFF's.
Cheers
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Rosskesava have you got any commercial work to back you up with the WFP?
Also have you got a good business so that u can afford one, and not be struggling.
Id personally say if your round consists of terraced houses and no real big stuff or office work etc then dont bother yet but if you have all types of work, and got a good compact round. Just go out and get one and look at all the info to expand.
If your looking at all diff poles, theres a few of us residential guys with the omnitrolley from omnipole, it comes with a short tubing but im extending for longer work length.
I was like you um and arring but i just went out and got one in the end, when u got one your forced to get into it, and who knows maybe one day work wont be around without one. If your confused, im sure Duke on Msn messenger will help, hes currently helping me thru the process, im fixing to go and work a day with him to get to know the ropes more.
Hope you dont mind man :o)
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Ross,
Is that a hearse you're driving? Is that for real? Many people talk about pole users looking like ghostbusters. You even have the appropriate transport! SUPERB! ;D LOL
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Of course you can use both (I've an aquatec trolley) and for 80% of my work it's pole and for the rest it's ladder. I have a choice - it's great!
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I have had my pole for 3 weeks now, I am still using trad methods aswell, I am still waiting for my gizmo to control the water flow better, when that comes I may be doing only the fronts straight out of the back of the car and then do the rears traditionally because a ladder is easier to get round the back of a house, I have a 100ft hose to mine so can get round the back of some with it and have targetted alot of 3 storey properties with quite alot of success.
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It seems to me that if you have an already established round you will have built it up over a period of time to suit your needs.
Subconciously you will have chosen customers with houses that suit you and your method of working.
Equally, to some extent they will have done the same with you. They like you and the job that you do.
If you now change to WFP there is no guarantee that the same customers are still ideal. Everything has changed now and it may well be that you would have to start canvassing up a whole new set of customer who fit the new formula.
This is just a fact of life. Its not that one way is better or worse but trying to cross over from trad to WFP is going to cause a few hiccups.