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UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: roger underhill on February 27, 2009, 10:55:16 am

Title: Piping turned pink
Post by: roger underhill on February 27, 2009, 10:55:16 am
Hi,

I Cleaned a two seat settee few days ago, it was a cotton damask, off white.

Clean went well, I managed to get some blue jean dye out and the customer was very pleased……BUT, the piping on some areas of the cushions has turned pink.

It was cleaned using pure clean pre treatment with just water rinse.

I have picked up one of the cushions so I can try a few things.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

best regards. roger
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Ricky M on February 27, 2009, 12:15:12 pm
Bi carb of sod so Ive been told by some one else who seem to know there onions !
I think the method was mix with warm water and mist over the areas with a trigger spray but I aint had this prob so just 2nd hand info
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Ricky M on February 27, 2009, 12:16:09 pm
But I like pink as you can see so I would leave it as it was
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: fenman on February 27, 2009, 12:30:11 pm
It is usually the dye reacting to either acid or alkali cleaners so you will need to try both an acid or an alkali to see which will reverse it.
As most cleaners are alkali the first one to try is acid such as acid rinse or white vinegar.
Before forums like this were around to share information I cleaned my own dark blue suite and ended up with pink patches that appeared  over the next few days and had no idea what caused it.
You can imangine how pleased my wife was.
Believe it or not a couple of months later we cleaned a pale green suite with no obvious problems but the next day got a call to say there were pink patches all over it which again through lack of knowledge we had to put in the hands of our insurers.
That cost us £250.00 excess and as a gesture went back when it had been re upholstered to apply protector.
David
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: clinton on February 27, 2009, 12:55:24 pm
Good post  :)

Just wonder how many cheap suite cleaners damage the good they clean ???
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: roger underhill on February 27, 2009, 01:07:19 pm
Hi, thanks for the replys

I have tried misting fibre and fab rinse....seemed a bit worse so I tried misting fab restorer....no better
tried misting power burst so high ph but still no improvement.

I will get some sod bicarb this afternoon and see if that improves things.

I was wondering if dye has been released from the cord inside the piping?
Rog.
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: markpowell on February 27, 2009, 01:26:32 pm
The colour bleed you mention is normally caused by using too high ph pre-sprays or rinse or due to the fact that the dyes used are unstable to water. Did the piping turn pink whilst you was cleaning or has it happened during drying, colour migration occurs in the last hour of drying time.
If you have tried an acid rinse and getting no joy i guess the damage is permanent.
We should always carry out dye bleed tests not only on cushions but also on any piping and zips.
Good luck Mark
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: derek west on February 27, 2009, 02:47:49 pm
i'd try hydramaster clearwater rinse, fib fab is not strong enough, really sounds like you need to acidify the problem.
worth a shot, what ya got to lose?
derek
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: clinton on February 27, 2009, 02:51:00 pm
Dont think the dye would have come through just in parts of the piping ::)

Have a go with your sod bic and see what happens when it dries mate
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Doug Holloway on February 27, 2009, 04:05:49 pm
Hi Guys

If it is a pH indicator colour then it will change colour by dabbing , gently with ammonia solution, alkai or white vinegar, acid.

Sodiun bicarb will make more alkaline and ofeten provides a more long lasting effect than ammonia.

If it is some sort ofcolour run, then sodium met or hydrogen peroxide may help.

Roger, do some tests with acid and alkali first.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: roger underhill on February 27, 2009, 05:37:40 pm
thanks everyone,

Ill give it my best shot over the weekend and let you know the results
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Simon@arenaclean on February 27, 2009, 06:34:44 pm
I recall something like this years ago but can't bloody remember. I make notes on some jobs when I do them, give me a chance to have a look through my old books. I may not be able to help but something is ringing a bell...

Simon
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: derek west on February 27, 2009, 06:37:11 pm
with it being on the piping, could something have leached through, i.e from the stuffing / lining etc...
just a thought.
derek
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Simon@arenaclean on February 27, 2009, 07:20:01 pm
Ok I've tracked it down, sadly not a solution but the reason. Derek and others are right. The piping is probably made from viscose which means the dye will be unstable in water or anything above PH 6/7, particularly on Damask suites (that's what rang the bell) It can be stabilised with a low acidic treatment, I used to use fibre bond PH about 3 if I recall, but have not needed it for years, then cleaning with Fib Fab rinse or similar. You can test with a your normal prespray but if it has piping i'd start with ready to use fib fab rinse and certainly never use high PH treatments. Apply solution to a cotton bud and test at back of cusion and keep the area as small as possible because it could stick out like a sore thumb! If there is any doubt don't wet clean and do similar test with OMS, dye can still be unstable so take much care. My old guvnor once clean one by using dry cleaning solvent as barrier before carefully wet cleaning it, two things, 1 he was genius and 2 had kahuna's as big as grapefruits. Not for the faint hearted. BTW was this an old suite? I have not seen one for a while. Sorry it does not offer a solution as it does sound like a dye bleed from viscose in the piping. With the high PH solutions you've tried already acetic acid might take it back. If it looks like a claim you will have nothing to lose.

Cheers and good luck
Simon
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Graeme@Access on February 28, 2009, 07:31:54 am
Sodiun bicarb will make more alkaline and ofeten provides a more long lasting effect than ammonia.

Thats because the reaction of the dye is reversible with ammonia, but not with sodium bicarbonate. Weak acid/base interactions occur in an equilibrium (basically they go back and forward) between the ammonium salt and ammonia.  As ammonia is a gas it will boil off driving the reaction in one direction (eventually towards the acid)

Its called Le Chatelier's principle >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chatelier%27s_principle

Sodium bicarbonate operates this way also, but in the opposite manner driving the reaction towards the alkai.  It does this as when bicarb reacts with an acid it gives off carbon dioxide.

Hope this helps.

Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: roger underhill on March 02, 2009, 08:08:28 pm
Hi

Just like to give everyone an update on the problem as without this no one really knows whether the advice is relevant or not.

First of all, thanks again to everyone that chipped in with some very good info.

I used a cotton bud to apply a mix of sodium bicarbonate ( 4 teaspoons in cup warm water)

Dried with hairdryer and then applied 6% solution of Hydrogen Peroxide, again using cotton buds.

Dried again and the results are perfect.

Thanks folks
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: derek west on March 02, 2009, 08:35:22 pm
why 2 proceedures.
did the bicarb do anything?
and if not, would the HP have done it without the bicarb?
just a quiery
derek
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: clinton on March 02, 2009, 08:41:26 pm
Good news and 1 to keep just in case :)
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: roger underhill on March 02, 2009, 08:50:10 pm
Hi Derrick,
I reckon the problem was compounded.
one was problem with ph levels whilst dye bleed from
a red yarn inside the piping needed the peroxide.
maybe the peroxide would have done the whole job, but
that was the way i did it.
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: derek west on March 02, 2009, 08:52:01 pm
cheers for the reply roger
derek
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: roger underhill on March 02, 2009, 08:52:17 pm
sorry for mis-spelling Derek mate
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: derek west on March 02, 2009, 09:04:16 pm
no problem rowjer. ;D people spell it wrong all the time.
darewick
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Doctor Carpet (Ret'd) on March 02, 2009, 10:33:34 pm
My English teacher always used to mention that England's most famous writer spelt his name in many ways although probably not as we were led to believe as "Bill Waggledagger" ;D
Title: Re: Piping turned pink
Post by: Graeme@Access on March 03, 2009, 03:59:34 pm
Hi,

Just one thing about the fact that he used both procedures. This is probably a good thing as the peroxide is much more active at pH >7.

So if it was a bleaching problem then the bicarb would have activated the peroxide.

Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions