Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jsm on February 11, 2009, 04:13:39 pm
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Just reading this on the Brodex site , the latest news letter bit -- mmmmmm RIP L5 heaters lol
Hot or Cold ?
Is Hot water the best for cleaning?
You do not wash the dishes at home with cold water do you? Nor do you wash the dishes at home without detergent therefore it is not the hot water alone that clean them. Brodex have spent 1000’s of pounds researching the cleaning power of pure water and have concluded that it is the structure of the pure water, it’s self that does the cleaning not the temperature of the water, this has little effect.
In 2007 a leading resin supplier warned the industry that Hot de-ionised water could actually be corrosive and detrimental to some framework because oxygen will leave the water at high temperatures resulting in a higher concentration of dissolved carbon dioxide which increase it’s acidity. Brodex advice in stubborn dirt scenarios is to either pre-treat with detergent or double clean to avoid costly law suits due to damage.
REASONS NOT TO USE HOT WATER
• Can crack the glass
• Unnecessarily high running costs
• Extremely high initial outlay
• Increase leaks on machines
• Increases the corrosiveness of the
water
• Is an expensive gimmick
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What if you replace the RO?DI with pure rainwater ?
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this has been posted loads of times,
guess who doesnt supply hot wfp units
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Funny, id like to see this "research" i bet its made up as per usual..
Ionics sell a hot system and they say its the best - so yeah,
the ones who dont sell it say it rubbish and corrosive with nothing to back that claim up apart from hear-say
and another who does sell it tells you its the best..
REASONS NOT TO USE HOT WATER
• Can crack the glass - if your an idiot who put it on too hot
• Unnecessarily high running costs - Nope.. made up fact
• Extremely high initial outlay - Nope.. made up fact
• Increase leaks on machines - Yes, so you need hot seals - simple fix
• Increases the corrosiveness of the
water - Really? - Please back that up with evidence
• Is an expensive gimmick - Nope.. Brodex are an expensive gimmick!
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yes it has , so shuve it whear the dont shine not you but bodex , most woodent go back to cold
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thats an interesting article, brodex obviously believe it or they would just simply supply hot water systems as well
they dont state what frames exactly are prone to corrosion, steel frames perhaps
over what period of time would it take them to noticably corrode
given a choice would you wash up in cold water or hot
when i wash glasses i run them under the hot tap before putting them on the drainer
my local washes their glasses with very hot water
would the oxgen in the hot water being more active make it clean better
it would help if they stated which frames may be prone to corrosion as you would know then to do them with cold or simply avoid the jo b
scaremainering
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Anyone has got a little bit of knowledge on chemistry knows exactly why hot water cleans better then cold. Sure pure water does it's job as well, but that's half the truth.
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I'm sure that Brodex (or the resin manufacturer) have got their chemical facts right.
However whilst this may be the fact in the laboratory, in reality there are far more things in the environment that will be corrosive to window frames than a little hot water.
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when i wash glasses i run them under the hot tap before putting them on the drainer
my local washes their glasses with very hot water
Yes you are supposed to rinse away the detergent with hot "running" water after you have washed them, it prevents bacteria build-up.
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hi chrisy
i didnt know the reasons behind it
im just doing as im told
as usual
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This whole "pure water" thing makes me laugh. Here's a list of some things that have been stated on this forum about it.
1. It's sterile
2. It's corrosive
3. It puts holes in your t-shirts
4. It strips pollish from car body work
5. It rots van floors
6. It rots wooden window sills
These are just a few of what I can think of for now. But, we have people collecting rain water from roofs that only reads 005ppm :o So to me, what's the difference? does 5 parts per million realy make all the difference? ;D
Tony
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Funny, id like to see this "research" i bet its made up as per usual..
Ionics sell a hot system and they say its the best - so yeah,
the ones who dont sell it say it rubbish and corrosive with nothing to back that claim up apart from hear-say
and another who does sell it tells you its the best..
REASONS NOT TO USE HOT WATER
• Can crack the glass - if your an idiot who put it on too hot
• Unnecessarily high running costs - Nope.. made up fact
• Extremely high initial outlay - Nope.. made up fact
• Increase leaks on machines - Yes, so you need hot seals - simple fix
• Increases the corrosiveness of the
water - Really? - Please back that up with evidence
• Is an expensive gimmick - Nope.. Brodex are an expensive gimmick!
You obviously have a hot water system ???
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This whole "pure water" thing makes me laugh. Here's a list of some things that have been stated on this forum about it.
1. It's sterile
2. It's corrosive
3. It puts holes in your t-shirts
4. It strips pollish from car body work
5. It rots van floors
6. It rots wooden window sills
These are just a few of what I can think of for now. But, we have people collecting rain water from roofs that only reads 005ppm :o So to me, what's the difference? does 5 parts per million realy make all the difference? ;D
Tony
2, 3 and 6 are accurate. I don't know why but it is more corrosive than rain water. Some hinges on glazed doors will go rusty with pure water but don't with normal exposure to rain. Pure water has made holes in my cotton t-shirts.
Also hot pure water is more acidic because it has a higher level carbon dioxide (I don't understand the science). Hot pure water must be more agressive to achieve its superior cleaning results - why else would bird poo and snail trails disolve far more easily?
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Just reading this on the Brodex site , the latest news letter bit -- mmmmmm RIP L5 heaters lol
Hot or Cold ?
Is Hot water the best for cleaning?
You do not wash the dishes at home with cold water do you? Nor do you wash the dishes at home without detergent therefore it is not the hot water alone that clean them. Brodex have spent 1000’s of pounds researching the cleaning power of pure water and have concluded that it is the structure of the pure water, it’s self that does the cleaning not the temperature of the water, this has little effect.
In 2007 a leading resin supplier warned the industry that Hot de-ionised water could actually be corrosive and detrimental to some framework because oxygen will leave the water at high temperatures resulting in a higher concentration of dissolved carbon dioxide which increase it’s acidity. Brodex advice in stubborn dirt scenarios is to either pre-treat with detergent or double clean to avoid costly law suits due to damage.
REASONS NOT TO USE HOT WATER
• Can crack the glass
• Unnecessarily high running costs
• Extremely high initial outlay
• Increase leaks on machines
• Increases the corrosiveness of the
water
• Is an expensive gimmick
LOL I wonder where they got that from? Sounds to me like the crap tucker poles or whatever they are called now used to say.
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I can assure you that hot water is much more corrosive than cold water - can't remember exactly but the pH of boiling water is normally around 4, acidic.
As alex G has stated there are other things in the environment much more corrosive but its a stand that Brodex have taken, they could sell Hot water systems just as anyone else can - but they don't.
As for the pub cleaning glasses with hot water, its not going to damage the glass is it? Glass is an incredibly inert material unaffected by acidic or alkaline solns.
I'm not saying hot water will ruin frames and sills - I'm just saying it could.
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This whole "pure water" thing makes me laugh. Here's a list of some things that have been stated on this forum about it.
1. It's sterile
2. It's corrosive
3. It puts holes in your t-shirts
4. It strips pollish from car body work
5. It rots van floors
6. It rots wooden window sills
These are just a few of what I can think of for now. But, we have people collecting rain water from roofs that only reads 005ppm :o So to me, what's the difference? does 5 parts per million realy make all the difference? ;D
Tony
yes of course it does
it turns the water into a sterile corrosive hole putter in of t-shirts and van floor wooden window sill liquid
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i phoned a friend
hes a scientist in the car industry dealing with car corrosion proofing
he knows all about reverse osmosis and de ionisation
the way he has explained it to me is
you put de ionised water into a battery and charge by running an electrical current through it, this works by speeding the molecules up which creates carbon dioxide .
this raises the acidity of the water creating sulphuric acid
the more you agitate these molecules he stronger the acid
sulphuric acid can be used to clean steel as it strips the oxide off the surface and if you put a block of ali in sulphuric acid it will dissolve the metal
raising the temperature of the water speeds up the molecules raising the acidity of the water creating a weak sulphuric acid
so there you go ...................brodex do have something, which is probably why they are not suplying hot water systems
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If you Google 'is hot water more corrosive than cold', then Brodexs' point is proven.
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Holes in T shirts! Just imagine the damage if you got pure water in your eyes. ::)
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ive also spoken to someone about this subject to a lecturer at cambridge i know and this theory only applies when the water is very hot the temp you use heated wfp systems at would hardly make any differance from a science lecturer at cambridge uni
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The fact will be in the readings, has anyone tested their PH after hot!!!!! If they have then they will know how acidic their water is?
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MAN, THAT WOULD HURT! LOL
i've never got a hole in my workwear in over 3 years wfp, even with hot!
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Probably acid rain. ;D
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dougs right someone with hot wfp should check the ph and find out how acidic it actually is
and then find out what the threshold is before it starts damaging frames
i would put money on the acidity being too weak to cause any real damage
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What about all the other points, they all seem valid to me
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Hot is best,i can see some people trying to get out of spending money by looking for bad points about hot.Try hot water on PVC windows and then go back to cold water,i can`t see any hot user doing that.
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We have a Thermopure system and a cold water system, Thermopure is leaps and bounds better than cold water cleaning, bird poop comes off with one pass of the brush.
Brodex did a promotion before Christmas, have a free try out of our system and we'll give you a free Prolong Pole worth £252 for free.
Had the try out, had our Thermopure van there as well, still waiting for my free pole! Wouldn't care but we have bought several poles off Patrick at Brodex in the past, including two 56 ft poles.
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There are a hew muppets on here !
All you do is slag people off..especially Brodex.
I have 3 systems..all cold water.
My first system is an Ionic.
Then I bought a Brodex system, and last year i bought another Brodex system...
Work that one out !
Brodex offered me a hot water system years ago.....NO THANKS
But what would I know....I've only been in the cleaning game for 24 years.
I have also studied industrial chemistry.
Reading some of your posts made me angry at first :o, now I just laugh! ;)
Some of you are clearly ignorant to the FACTS.
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There are a hew muppets on here !
All you do is slag people off..especially Brodex.
I have 3 systems..all cold water.
My first system is an Ionic.
Then I bought a Brodex system, and last year i bought another Brodex system...
Work that one out !
Brodex offered me a hot water system years ago.....NO THANKS
But what would I know....I've only been in the cleaning game for 24 years.
I have also studied industrial chemistry.
Reading some of your posts made me angry at first :o, now I just laugh! ;)
Some of you are clearly ignorant to the FACTS.
you must be one of the fortunate ones ,i dont own a brodex system but to be fair they do look well built but when it comes to their poles and customer service then the only thing i can say about the service i have had from them is appalling,.
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There are a hew muppets on here !
All you do is slag people off..especially Brodex.
I have 3 systems..all cold water.
My first system is an Ionic.
Then I bought a Brodex system, and last year i bought another Brodex system...
Work that one out !
Your post added no increase in knowledge. It just insulted people. What qualification do you attain with your studies?
Kevin.
Brodex offered me a hot water system years ago.....NO THANKS
But what would I know....I've only been in the cleaning game for 24 years.
I have also studied industrial chemistry.
Reading some of your posts made me angry at first :o, now I just laugh! ;)
Some of you are clearly ignorant to the FACTS.
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Holes in T shirts! Just imagine the damage if you got pure water in your eyes. ::)
I have also had holes in tee shirts, I have also noticed that it rusts metal faster, and when some of the water drops from the upstairs into my eyes, it can be painful.
As for using hot pure water that causes the problems that Brodex has stated, well on some windows it is possible, but on other windows, hot water is a better way to clean with.
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How long does it stay hot for?
Any liquid when in droplet formation will loose any stored heat in seconds. Theres so much surface area exposed to the air with a droplet that the heat will just pass out of the water almost immediately, thus returning the water pH to a normal level.
Bit different if something was immersed in a vat of warm water, it'd be exposed to a liquid at a lower pH for a considerable period of time.
I dont think the acid line is going to stick somehow, those who use hot might get through seals/pumps etc a tad quicker than cold WFPers but thats all.
Matt
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Personaly, I don't think hot wfp will do any more damage than cold in the real world.
Listen to some & you'd be forgiven for thinking you were cleaning windows with acid!! ::) ::)
I think it's boring, companies will always promote what's in their best interests, it's business!!
Tony
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fat boy slim
i thought you were a singer and music producer..................things not going too well then.........................never mind ..........welcome to the muppet show ;D
i thought the whole point of this thread is that brodex dont offer hot wfp as its too acidic and may cause damage
but you claim they offered you one years ago
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i thought the whole point of this thread is that brodex dont offer hot wfp as its too acidic and may cause damage
Yeah, ironic realy. They'll happily sell you a pole that will do you more damage ;D
Tony
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fat boy slim
i thought you were a singer and music producer..................things not going too well then.........................never mind ..........welcome to the muppet show ;D
i thought the whole point of this thread is that brodex dont offer hot wfp as its too acidic and may cause damage
but you claim they offered you one years ago
Indeed they did, and if you have seen their new brochure, they will be bringing one out shortly.
As far as cystomer service.....A million times better than our Wiltshire "friends" service
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hot hot all the way for me it dus a beter job then cold
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I've never had a problem with brodex customer service - although I've never had much need to come back to them about anything, poles are really well made and seem to last an eternity.
Our first 25ft carbon (ecolite or something) is still going (although could do with being changed soon) after about 4 years. I use it every day for nearly everything too.
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As far as cystomer service.....A million times better than our Wiltshire "friends" service
welcome to the window cleaners Rebel Alliance
the only criteria of joining us fight the dark side is posting lines like that
;D ;D ;D
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Isn't it more likely that you made a study of industrial language? Chemistry is quite a different subject, and if you had studied it you would know that;
The only relevant chemistry point is that carbon dioxide dissolves more easily in hot water to make very weak carbonic acid.
Interesting that a company that thinks hot is no better than bird lime, should be launching it's own hot system.
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i run a brodex hot water system .works fine .
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I rang Issac Newton on his cell phone and he said "its like this john", then he had to go as a bloody apple had fallen on his head! So close, will try ringing him l8r.
Jon.
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There are a hew muppets on here !
All you do is slag people off..especially Brodex.
I have 3 systems..all cold water.
My first system is an Ionic.
Then I bought a Brodex system, and last year i bought another Brodex system...
Work that one out !
Brodex offered me a hot water system years ago.....NO THANKS
But what would I know....I've only been in the cleaning game for 24 years.
I have also studied industrial chemistry.
Reading some of your posts made me angry at first , now I just laugh!
Some of you are clearly ignorant to the FACTS.
Hi Sean ;D
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i dont have wfp
the reason im taking such an interest in this thread is that im going that way later this year
ive read a lot of sites and have chosen a supplier reccomended by several people on here, ive looked on the brodex site , and to be honest i dont see what extra benifits im getting for the extra money
it was my intention to add a heater and go hot wfp...........hence the interest in this thread............................its likely that i will still do that
i was talking to a heating engeneer last night about this
oh yes he said its the first thing plumbers learn..............if you heat oxygenated water it becomes corrosive and rots the system from the inside out, thats what keeps the pumbing industry afloat
they get over that by adding furnox when they fill a central heating system as it takes the oxygen out of the water and stops the process starting
so ive had it from the car industry, and now a heating engineer
brodex say it and they got it from a resin manufacturer
if a resin manufacturer doesnt understand this process who would
several people who use hot wfp have said it burns holes in their clothes and stings when they get it in their eyes....................why would they lie
so heated pure water is acidic......................accept that as a fact
the question is how acidic.........................and how acidic does it have to be for it to cause damage
its something everyone who uses wfp needs to know for their own protection if a claim is made against them
and something those lookig to go into wfp need to be aware of
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There are a hew muppets on here !
All you do is slag people off..especially Brodex.
I have 3 systems..all cold water.
My first system is an Ionic.
Then I bought a Brodex system, and last year i bought another Brodex system...
Work that one out !
Brodex offered me a hot water system years ago.....NO THANKS
But what would I know....I've only been in the cleaning game for 24 years.
I have also studied industrial chemistry.
Reading some of your posts made me angry at first , now I just laugh!
Some of you are clearly ignorant to the FACTS.
Hi Sean ;D
I am confused ithought you were Glyn.....who is Sean ?
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Well that's it then, no more hot baths for me - cold showers from now on (that'll please the wife).
What a load of testicles, i've never heard so much rubbish in all my life! Pure water burning holes in T shirts - brilliant. You couldn't write this rubbish for april the 1st.
What's rainwater then? Very nearly pure water of course. What do you think they use to put in your eyes with your contact lenses? Very clean water with a low saline content - that's all pure water is - very clean water.
If your tap water comes from a limestone area it's going to be slightly alkaline, if it comes from a granite area it's likely to be slightly acidic.
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There are a hew muppets on here !
All you do is slag people off..especially Brodex.
I have 3 systems..all cold water.
My first system is an Ionic.
Then I bought a Brodex system, and last year i bought another Brodex system...
Work that one out !
Brodex offered me a hot water system years ago.....NO THANKS
But what would I know....I've only been in the cleaning game for 24 years.
I have also studied industrial chemistry.
Reading some of your posts made me angry at first , now I just laugh!
Some of you are clearly ignorant to the FACTS.
Hi Sean ;D
Hi Glyn,
Do I take it from your above comment that you suspect 'fatboy slim' to be a pseudonym for Sean Rimmer MD of Brodex?
I don't think that Sean would be that sneaky as he has often come on here under his own name. Of course it could be a Brodex employee doing some undercover work or it could be a genuine customer.
If we could see his IP address (which admin can) we could check it out.
Just checking - aren't you Glyn from Ionic Systems? ;)
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There are a hew muppets on here !
All you do is slag people off..especially Brodex.
I have 3 systems..all cold water.
My first system is an Ionic.
Then I bought a Brodex system, and last year i bought another Brodex system...
Work that one out !
Brodex offered me a hot water system years ago.....NO THANKS
But what would I know....I've only been in the cleaning game for 24 years.
I have also studied industrial chemistry.
Reading some of your posts made me angry at first , now I just laugh!
Some of you are clearly ignorant to the FACTS.
Hi Sean ;D
Hi Glyn,
Do I take it from your above comment that you suspect 'fatboy slim' to be a pseudonym for Sean Rimmer MD of Brodex?
I don't think that Sean would be that sneaky as he has often come on here under his own name. Of course it could be a Brodex employee doing some undercover work or it could be a genuine customer.
If we could see his IP address (which admin can) we could check it out.
Just checking - aren't you Glyn from Ionic Systems? ;)
its starting to get like the old days
next we will see ironics member of staff (of course forgetting to mention that ;)) posting about how they won a billion pound contract just because they have the words ironics reach and wash on the side of the van
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Hi Alex
Sean Rimmer wasnt the MD of Brodex although he claimed to be! he was just an employee of Brodex and he also used to state that he held a qualification in Industrial Chemistry just like fatboy slim.
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i can understand what your saying ftp
i can tell you think im being stupid about this and your not on your own
but all the evidence shows that its a fact that pure water becomes more acidic the hotter it gets
you put summer coolant in your motor to prevent corrosion from the hot water
every other industry recognises these facts and takes steps to prevent it
so hot water is more corrosive than cold..................undisputable fact
its not what im arguing about
im being pedantic i know but before i invest in a system i want to know how corrosive hot wfp is
or is all this about destroying window frames just a load of bunkum put about by a supplier that only supplies cold water systems
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Hi Alex
Sean Rimmer wasnt the MD of Brodex although he claimed to be! he was just an employee of Brodex and he also used to state that he held a qualification in Industrial Chemistry just like fatboy slim.
Have a look here Glyn,
www.linkedin.com/pub/4/139/1b6 (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/4/139/1b6)
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now do tell me wear in a boller you get bits that rust as tis coper brass and stanlessteal , it the rads that rot with water be it hot or cold , so wear is it going to rot on your sictem as ther are no rads
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Hot pure water is more acidic than cold, I've done the tests an posted pics on here to prove it. However how acidic at the tempritures that window cleaners use it who knows. The ph scale is a logerithmic scale as well so 5 is a lot more acidic than 6. Have there ever been any claims made against wcs because of damage to metal frames?
One thing is fir sure though, if you don't sell a product your not going to rave about it. How many trad cleaners that have no intention of going wfp have slated wfp to their customers, theirs been a few on here that have converted afterwards.
Simon.
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hot or cold pure water cleans, i imagine on first cleans hot would be a great
advantage but on regular maintenance cleans cant see there being any great
advantage.keep hearing that hot cleans better surely they do the same job one
is just quicker than the other and that is dependant on the job you are doing
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Hi Alex
As I wrote, he claimed to be the MD at Brodex but he was never shown as even an ordinary Director or even a shareholder at any of the Brodex Companies on any Companies House records or documents, which are the Only records that are legal and by law your name and address must appear in these records before you may call yourself a Director.
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I have been wearing the same trousers for work now for 3 years, no damage from pure water that I can find, ditto my polo shirts, not an iota of damage caused through water rotting holes through the fabric....
I'd not dispute that the hotter water gets the more likely it is to absorb CO2 from the atmosphere, cold pure water is also more likely to absorb CO2 as well (to a lesser degree of course)
But ultimately the water we use is only a tiny bit purer than rain water, hell there have been occasions when the water I've used hasn't been as pure as rainwater, ie, when my resin needs changing.
I wonder how long it is going to be before someone has a customer who tries to blame the window cleaner for their windows oxidising?
Now I know that it is caused by UV rays from sunshine of course, but no doubt someone will here of windows being rotted from pure water used by window cleaners and try and use that erroneous fact to sue their window cleaner for some nice new windows!!
Pure water isn't battery acid! The weak carbonic acid that it becomes is so weak that it is an insult to any decent acid to call it acid at all!! If it was then all rain would be acid rain, houses would melt, cars would be stripped of paint.
Water is of course an amazing substance, ultra pure water (waaaaay purer than the stuff we use to clean windows) freezes at several degrees below zero C, the purified water we use will happily freeze at zero degrees C (or as near to it as dammit) so in chemical terms it can't be that pure can it?
A mate of mine works for a police forensic lab, and he has said that the water we use wouldn't be pure enough for them, they measure it in parts per billion, not parts per million as we do.
As soon as I'm in a position to do so I'll be getting set up with some of hot water system...but not the Ionics thermopure that's for sure! (nowt wrong with it, it's just so bloody expensive!)
Ian
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you scrufiy git not changing your panits :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Anyone got some litmus paper and I'll test it,..... ?
I honestly expect the difference to be so small that it can only be measures with a digital meter though,.. though I don't dispute there will be a slight difference in PH.
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thanks lads
i know ive rattled on about this , but i can see so many advantages to hot wfp that i want to go down that route
i dont want to be sued a few years down the line for ruining someones frames
reading todays replies i feel better about the whole thing
i bet theres more harmfull muck raining down on us from the atmosphere
than we could produce by heating pure water
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If hot water is not more agressive how does it clean better? Everyone seems to ignore this simple point.
The water must be heated to a high enough temperature to alter its characteristics, otherwise there would be no point doing it.
In my experience pure water only makes holes in COTTON. e.g 100% pure cotton t-shirt.
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our pure water isnt really that pure
i use water thats upto 010 TDS
its rained with purer water
so when i am in orlando and it rains, i need to dash for cover before it melts my mickey mouse eye hat
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mike the chamois.
As you say we are all getting a bit pedantic, but this thread as ftp and others point out is full of rubbish. Hot water is pref
ered by all who try it.The negative posts come from those who haven't got it.
Stop thinking and start doing-and guess what- you'll make some money, and kick yourself for not doing it sooner.
Even if you buy a top of the range ionics thermopure it will still be the best money you ever spend.
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If hot water is not more agressive how does it clean better? Everyone seems to ignore this simple point.
The water must be heated to a high enough temperature to alter its characteristics, otherwise there would be no point doing it.
In my experience pure water only makes holes in COTTON. e.g 100% pure cotton t-shirt.
OK think back to double science at school..
by heating anything you give it energy, the molecules move around more.. these molecules moving around in the heated water will dislodge more of the contamination/bird cr*p, etc on the window..
Look at it another way - when you heat something it will melt, from its solid state to a liquid so its easier to remove, so that could be the same for bird cr*p on the window.
It comes out warm from the birds innards about 30-40 degrees - when you put warm/hot water on the dried (frozen) solid state bird cr*p, it melts it, making it easier to remove..
Only logic really..
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If hot water is not more agressive how does it clean better? Everyone seems to ignore this simple point.
The water must be heated to a high enough temperature to alter its characteristics, otherwise there would be no point doing it.
In my experience pure water only makes holes in COTTON. e.g 100% pure cotton t-shirt.
OK think back to double science at school..
by heating anything you give it energy, the molecules move around more.. these molecules moving around in the heated water will dislodge more of the contamination/bird cr*p, etc on the window..
Look at it another way - when you heat something it will melt, from its solid state to a liquid so its easier to remove, so that could be the same for bird cr*p on the window.
It comes out warm from the birds innards about 30-40 degrees - when you put warm/hot water on the dried (frozen) solid state bird cr*p, it melts it, making it easier to remove..
Only logic really..
indeed :)
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If hot water is not more agressive how does it clean better? Everyone seems to ignore this simple point.
The water must be heated to a high enough temperature to alter its characteristics, otherwise there would be no point doing it.
In my experience pure water only makes holes in COTTON. e.g 100% pure cotton t-shirt.
Bloody 'ell....................
.............which is why you wash dishes in hot-water, you use hot-water in the washing machine and the dish-washer uses.....guess what ;D ...yup, you guessed it HOT WATER !!!!
By the way Im cold WFP
Thats not hot water that makes holes in your cotton t-shirt its your B.O. (well what else could it be? ;D ) your washing machine dont make holes in t-shirts does it, why should wfp then?
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I'd be looking for moths in the airing cupboard if i was you. ;)
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If hot water is not more agressive how does it clean better? Everyone seems to ignore this simple point.
The water must be heated to a high enough temperature to alter its characteristics, otherwise there would be no point doing it.
In my experience pure water only makes holes in COTTON. e.g 100% pure cotton t-shirt.
OK think back to double science at school..
by heating anything you give it energy, the molecules move around more.. these molecules moving around in the heated water will dislodge more of the contamination/bird cr*p, etc on the window..
Look at it another way - when you heat something it will melt, from its solid state to a liquid so its easier to remove, so that could be the same for bird cr*p on the window.
It comes out warm from the birds innards about 30-40 degrees - when you put warm/hot water on the dried (frozen) solid state bird cr*p, it melts it, making it easier to remove..
Only logic really..
I was just about to post something similar.
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mike the chamois.
As you say we are all getting a bit pedantic, but this thread as ftp and others point out is full of rubbish. Hot water is pref
ered by all who try it.The negative posts come from those who haven't got it.
Stop thinking and start doing-and guess what- you'll make some money, and kick yourself for not doing it sooner.
Even if you buy a top of the range ionics thermopure it will still be the best money you ever spend.
Couldn`t have put it better myself.
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thanks
thats what i want to hear
i just wanted to be sure
at the start of the year i put together a plan that includes
newer van
hot wfp
full wrap signwriting
marketing campaign
one slight hiccup...........................need more money
need to increase size of round....................bad start to year
then someone points out that hot wfp is acidic and could damage frames
so to above list i need to add.................chill out
and stop worrying about nothing
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thanks
thats what i want to hear
i just wanted to be sure
at the start of the year i put together a plan that includes
newer van
hot wfp
full wrap signwriting
marketing campaign
one slight hiccup...........................need more money
need to increase size of round....................bad start to year
then someone points out that hot wfp is acidic and could damage frames
so to above list i need to add.................chill out
and stop worrying about nothing
Newer van, maybe, some good deals on 3 year old ones, save thousands.
Hot wfp? Start with Cold, and save some money, in time, upgrade it to hot.
Full vehicle warp? A lot of money, not particularly necessary. Nice logo, name and telephone number, and what you do is all you need on there.
Marketing campaign, avoid yellow pages etc. just cost money, and doesn't net you much work. Canvass, canvass and canvass, and then some. Leave your leaflet and card everywhere. Do good work, and you will get more and more work.
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thanks tim
plan was ambitous but if you dont aim high you wont get anywhere
its better to aim too high and come in a bit lower than aim too low and hit your target
i like the idea of a trolly as some of my jobs are awkward from a van, not a problem trad but i would have a hose trailing halfway across the estate with wfp
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http://blog.visiondecor.com/index.php/2008/11/18/the-explainer-why-does-hot-water-clean-better-than-cold-water/
The above link expalins why hot and cold are diferent in cleaning.
We all know why Pure Water cleans windows better than tap water, and the answer is that Pure Water is more aggresive than tap water and it also has less impurities in it than tap water.
So if Pure Water is aggresive when cold and we now know that when you heat up water it becomes more aggresive then it only logical that Hot Pure Water will be more aggressive than Cold Pure Water, and something this aggresive could cause problems on some materals.
I have had tee shirts that have developed holes in them quite quickly and the reason I know that its Pure water that is causing it is because I brought several of them and I only used a few for window cleaning the others I wore elsewere.
The ones I used for window cleaning devoloped holes while the other did not, It does not happen with every teeshirt.
I have noticed that in the summer it gets worser than the winter months, so it could be because the water is at a higher tempreture.
The same applies to the stinging of the eyes when some drops drip into my eyes, its stings more in the summer months than it does in the winter.
At the moment I use cold but I will be converting my system to hot soon, but I will be looking for signs of extra wear and tear on my customers windows and if I see any signs of damage occuring on them windows, then I will clean with cold.
As for Brodex bringing out a Hot Water system, well why not, hot water imo will only be damaging to a limited amount of customers houses, while the rest it will be perfectly ok for.
Wfp cleaning is a learning curve all the time, as more and more cleaners are using and modifing it, we come across new knowledge about wfp, and if we can learn from it then you can only get better at it.
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I only use hot in the winter! Keeps your line`s from freezing up - keep on working, keep on earning! at my heaters lowest setting I could only manage 18 deg at the brush head ( 58 deg from the heater ) that`s a loss of 30 deg over a 100 meter lengh of 8mm mini bore! as long as you are over 1 deg you are still working and earning!
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So if Pure Water is aggresive when cold and we now know that when you heat up water it becomes more aggresive then it only logical that Hot Pure Water will be more aggressive than Cold Pure Water, and something this aggresive could cause problems on some materals.
No, not necessarily, just because its more aggressive than something doesnt mean its aggressive ENOUGH to start eating t-shirts and rotting window-sills, its water for gods sake, you drink it; your body is 87% water.
If thats the case why hasnt my kettle, shower, bath, washing-machine, swimmingpool all fallen apart at the joints? Why do my clothes come out the washing machine with no holes in them?
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The whole "agressive" thing makes me laugh too. Why then do most people clean con' roofs with tap water then only rinse with pure? Have you ever cleaned windows with tap water? I have & they clean just the same as pure only obviously you're left with some disolved solids once the water has evaporated. I can clean my own windows with my tap water (80-90ppm) & they clean great, any dirt or bird poo isn't any harder to get off & dry leaving only minimal water marks!
I know why It's termed as agressive but come on, this has no bearing on cleaning power in reality, only to leave a spot free finnish. ???
Tony
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The word 'aggressive' seems to be loosely used on this thread as if we're talking about sulphuric acid or something.
Why is that some people seem to loose all sense of sense on an internet forum ;D
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The word 'aggressive' seems to be loosely used on this thread as if we're talking about sulphuric acid or something.
Why is that some people seem to loose all sense of sense on an internet forum ;D
My thoughts exactly! ;)
Tony
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All sorts of rubbish spouted about - it "eats" algae on conservatory roofs too, which is strange because algae grows quite well in pure water filled ibc's and van tanks. I've even read how pure water disolves dirt because it tries to revert to it's natural state. Total bunkum of course - the brush does the work and clean water washes the particles away. But because it's so clean the water can be left on the glass (which isn't sterile either ;D).
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Ive just done some research on 'holes in cotton'
someone posted on this thread that they'd had holes develop in their 100% cotton (in capital letters, to emphasise their point ;D) and it could ONLY be put down to hot-WFP.
Anyway, back to the highly technical research Ive been inspired to participate in regarding the likelihood of holes developing in our garments when using hot pure water, it seems its a somewhat more common ailment of leaving the confines of your house than was obviously thought ;D ;D ;D
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=holes+in+cotton&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB278GB278
in other words, type in 'holes in cotton' into google and you have your solution ;D
It seems that quite simply it happens because ITS cotton ;D ;D
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I must admit, not meaning to beat a topic to death ;D , but I was rather surprised to find that no-one on those other forums suggested that the holes in the cotton garments might be caused by hot pure water window cleaning systems. Perhaps some of us ought to join those forums and post on the relevant topics suggesting theyve been caused by a highly caustic/acidic and reactive chemical compound otherwise known as aqua which their window-cleaner is in all likelihood using ;D ;D ;D
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I get holes in t-shirts from cold pure water. As an experiment put 1 scrim in pure water and 1 in ordinary water to soak for a few hours and compare results.
I had to stop using pure water to wash scrims because they quicly developed holes. Does not have this effect on micro-fibre cloths though.
I have been cold wfp 3 years and may switch to hot when I change my van, but I don't want to bury my head in the sand as some prefer to, about the potential downside of both hot and cold wfp.
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what happens in areas with a low tds scotland , cormall lake district and parts of wales and all of cyrprus and greek isles (002) does their clothes full to bits when being washed i dont think so
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If you do not believe me try hand washing a cotton t-shirt a couple of times in pure water and you won't want to wear it again. Or try soaking a scrim for a few hours in a bucket of pure water. THEN post a reply. My observatuions are based on 3 years wfp.
Pure water is not the same as rain water. As I understand it purified water has a lower hydrogen content but will reabsorb hydrogen.
Rain water falls several thousand feet so has plenty of chance to reabsorb hydrogen. Also it is formed by water vapour collecting around dust particles in the atmosphere so cannot be compared to pure water.
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Broadex have alot of money to invest into what ever they see to be the best cleaning, so to all the peeps who say they dont promote hot water cleaning coz they dont sell, just take a min to think why they dont, coz if they wanted to, they very well could. They dont because of reasons stated.... But thats just my logic.... And I also brought a system from them lol.....
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So if Pure Water is aggresive when cold and we now know that when you heat up water it becomes more aggresive then it only logical that Hot Pure Water will be more aggressive than Cold Pure Water, and something this aggresive could cause problems on some materals.
Ok you seem to think that Pure water is no diferent than tap water, as an experiment try drinking the stuff, it won't affect you at all as its ONLY water.
No, not necessarily, just because its more aggressive than something doesnt mean its aggressive ENOUGH to start eating t-shirts and rotting window-sills, its water for gods sake, you drink it; your body is 87% water.
If thats the case why hasnt my kettle, shower, bath, washing-machine, swimmingpool all fallen apart at the joints? Why do my clothes come out the washing machine with no holes in them?
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If you do not believe me try hand washing a cotton t-shirt a couple of times in pure water and you won't want to wear it again. Or try soaking a scrim for a few hours in a bucket of pure water. THEN post a reply. My observatuions are based on 3 years wfp.
Pure water is not the same as rain water. As I understand it purified water has a lower hydrogen content but will reabsorb hydrogen.
Rain water falls several thousand feet so has plenty of chance to reabsorb hydrogen. Also it is formed by water vapour collecting around dust particles in the atmosphere so cannot be compared to pure water.
ive used pure water for trad downstairs for over 5 years, i still have the same scrims, i now use micro fibre clothes and i can honestly say i havent noticed the water eating away at them
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Quick google found this:
Non-laboratory uses
Distilled or deionized water are commonly used to top up lead acid batteries used in cars and trucks. The presence of foreign ions commonly found in tap water will cause a drastic reduction in an automobile's battery lifespan.
Distilled or deionized water is preferable to tap water for use in automotive cooling systems. The minerals and ions typically found in tap water can be corrosive to internal engine components, and can cause a more rapid depletion of the anti-corrosion additives found in most antifreeze formulations. Distilled or deionized water is especially important in automotive hybrid system component cooling systems, mixed with hybrid system coolant, to prevent corrosion and/or electrolysis of hybrid components.
Using distilled water in steam irons for pressing clothes, as well as other appliances such as humidifiers and cigar humidors which boil water, can reduce mineral scale build-up and help the appliance last longer.
So rather the opposite regarding corrosive properties?
Then another search found this:
http://www.finishing.com/110/17.shtml a familiar name popped up on there too.
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Ok you seem to think that Pure water is no diferent than tap water, as an experiment try drinking the stuff, it won't affect you at all as its ONLY water.
We're not talking about drinking it, we're talking about the effects (well, non-effects actually) of WFP water on our customers property and any possible liabilities from that.
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I drink pure water when I'm out working,... even made a cuppa from the hot stuff!!
I don't doubt that it is more acidic,.. but I seriously doubt the difference is enough to cause damage to windows or frames.
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Let me throw something else into the equation: The Resin
there are different types of resin.
In the last couple of years FOOD GRADE RESINS have come to be more common. I'm assured by ROMan literature that being food grade means it's safe to drink. I even use it for my tropical fish and I haven't seen them complaining.
But I wouldn't risk it with non food graded resin,
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i cant believe people are still arguing against hot wfp being more acidic than cold
next they will tell us the world really is flat afterall
the question is not if hot wfp is acidic..........................its how acidic
and wether its enough to cause the damage that its claimed it could do
i dont want sueing in 10 yrs for damage to frames so im considering a disclaimer in my terms and conditions claiming its still relatively new techonology and the long term effects are still unknown , so far as im aware no damage is caused by this systemand im using in good faith,...............or words to that effect
i will need to give to a solicitor for the corect legalese
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I drink pure water when I'm out working,... even made a cuppa from the hot stuff!!
I don't doubt that it is more acidic,.. but I seriously doubt the difference is enough to cause damage to windows or frames.
Dude, that is actually dangerous, and you could really have bad health consequences from it in the long run (not kidding)
Water purifying companies purify the water to the highest degree, but put minerals and nutrients back in the water, because the purified water is so pure, it actually leaches your body from nutrients. Saw it on a video on water management company.
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brodex must of changed their minds as in the feb issue of cleaning and maintenance magazine it states brodex are introducing its water heater for water fed pole systems which will enable every water fed pole user to easily enable their system to produce a continuous supply of hot water when required, they are also releasing a new brush head.
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your right trevor
i checked this out with brodex last week and they are re introducing hot wfp to their range, which makes a total nonsence of their claims
i think its a good thing that the water is a mild acid as its going to improve its cleaning properties and make short work of bird lime etc
i just dont want to be sued
im still waiting for an explanation from their technical dept ::) ::) ::)
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wow ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I drink pure water when I'm out working,... even made a cuppa from the hot stuff!!
I don't doubt that it is more acidic,.. but I seriously doubt the difference is enough to cause damage to windows or frames.
Dude, that is actually dangerous, and you could really have bad health consequences from it in the long run (not kidding)
Water purifying companies purify the water to the highest degree, but put minerals and nutrients back in the water, because the purified water is so pure, it actually leaches your body from nutrients. Saw it on a video on water management company.
I had a customer who had a ro under his sink for drinking - after a while drinking the stuff he said he felt like S...t !! so may be some truth in that as we need the old nutrients and stuff.
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what happens in areas with a low tds scotland , cormall lake district and parts of wales and all of cyrprus and greek isles (002) does their clothes full to bits when being washed i dont think so
you've not seen how my wife does the washing then :o :o :o