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UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: lee_dewing on February 10, 2009, 04:08:56 pm

Title: doing tax return
Post by: lee_dewing on February 10, 2009, 04:08:56 pm
hi, i use an accountant, charges me £280 a year, not overly happy with him 3rd one i've had in 5 years window cleaning.

Just wondering does anyone do their own tax return, ive heard if you send your accountants to inland rev they do your return free.

anyone know about this or any reading matter that can help you be more savvy.

not got p/c yet, but hoping to get laptop and george, and keep all my reciepts, be more tidy and organised :D
thanks lee
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: dai on February 10, 2009, 04:32:36 pm
Lee I just saw your post after I had posted mine. I am definitely doing my own from now on.
I have just paid my accountant £300, and will probably have to pay and extra £100 because they screwed up.
Your local tax office will give you any advice that you require. It seems crazy to pay someone else to enter your own figures on a tax form, lets face it they had nothing else to do, all my receipts were sorted by date and order the expense occurred. Each bank statement was in it's own clear envelope with receipts for that month.
Talk about money for old rope.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 10, 2009, 04:38:12 pm
If you turn over less than 30K per year and you're a sole trader, anyone of at least average intelligence can do their own accounts.

That's why it's called Self Assessment; not Accountant Assessment; it's easy guys!
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: mikethechamois on February 10, 2009, 04:39:01 pm
i do mine online and at the end of the tax year they do the assessment free of charge, the upside no fees the downside you cant be creative

the details are on their site but you need a government gateway password which is a pain but essential for your security
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Dean Taberner on February 10, 2009, 08:39:35 pm
Hi guys,

I did my own for a few years when I worked alone and it worked fine,

Its very easy if your go on the revenues courses which are free and you get loads of advice from their small business teams.

Since ive started employing and had subbys though, I realised an accountant was the way forward.

Dean

Title: `
Post by: Tosh on February 10, 2009, 09:00:52 pm
I think I'll do a DIY tax guide...
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: chris@c.m.s on February 10, 2009, 09:28:48 pm
Yes Please Tosh  :)
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Rogue Trader on February 10, 2009, 10:12:01 pm
it is definately worth using a good accountant , i worked out that i would have to pay around 6k in tax but my accountant did it and my bill was £1700 just paid and £800 in July , definately worth his £200 fee i think!!!! accountants are accountants for a reason. ;D
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 11, 2009, 08:25:01 am
it is definately worth using a good accountant , i worked out that i would have to pay around 6k in tax but my accountant did it and my bill was £1700 just paid and £800 in July , definately worth his £200 fee i think!!!! accountants are accountants for a reason. ;D

That's a big difference, how did your accountant save you that much?  Did he do it honestly or creatively?
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 11, 2009, 08:43:58 am
Just an afterthought...

Remember for your average sole trading window cleaner; tax is fairly simple. 

You have your Turnover and your Expenses.  You deduct your Expenses from your Turnover and what is left is called your Profit.

You're taxed on your Profit.

There's no magic wands that an accountant has that can reduce the amount of profit you've earned and as long as you know what your expenses are, what's the problem?
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Rob.Hall on February 11, 2009, 09:00:04 am
As mentioned you can go on a self assesment course with the Tax Office.

They are updateing the course and will be holding them after April time.

For a newbe they have a course on what you need to know when going self employed. Cant remember the exact name but you will find it on there web site.

Courses are held locally so you dont have to travel to far.

Hope this helps.

Tosh...its a great idea....maybe you could do a little business on the side for self assessement!
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Sir Squeaky on February 11, 2009, 09:03:50 am
it is definately worth using a good accountant , i worked out that i would have to pay around 6k in tax but my accountant did it and my bill was £1700 just paid and £800 in July , definately worth his £200 fee i think!!!! accountants are accountants for a reason. ;D
Something wrong there.
Did you forget your expenses? ;D

My accountant used to be £175 or so.
I do it myself now.

He would have to find an extra £800 of expenses just to cover his £175 fee!
And there just isn't £800 of expenses i've forgotten about! ;D
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: lee_dewing on February 11, 2009, 03:34:35 pm
sorry to hear about bad luck dai :(
thanks all.
I let my guy do this one yearapril 08-april 09
then in mean time contact inland rev and as 0f april 6th this year make sure i'm in 21st century computerised and keep all reciepts.
thanks lee
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Rogue Trader on February 11, 2009, 08:27:44 pm
it is definately worth using a good accountant , i worked out that i would have to pay around 6k in tax but my accountant did it and my bill was £1700 just paid and £800 in July , definately worth his £200 fee i think!!!! accountants are accountants for a reason. ;D

That's a big difference, how did your accountant save you that much? Did he do it honestly or creatively?

im know he is honest and good and comes highly recommended he knows the system and what can be claimed for , he does this as his profession and so has his finger on the pulse regarding saving his clients money , my time is better spent cleaning windows and trusting his work.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: seandyer2003 on February 11, 2009, 08:31:59 pm
Hi guys,

I did my own for a few years when I worked alone and it worked fine,

Its very easy if your go on the revenues courses which are free and you get loads of advice from their small business teams.

Since ive started employing and had subbys though, I realised an accountant was the way forward.

Dean



I am planning on doing one of them courses. keep forgetting to book though!!
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Neil Williams on February 11, 2009, 08:53:00 pm
There's no magic wands that an accountant has that can reduce the amount of profit you've earned and as long as you know what your expenses are, what's the problem?

As per others. I pay an accountant because he knows about accounts and tax. An accountant gets a window cleaner because he wants someone who can get the right results on his double glazing.
If you work from home did you know you can claim a proportion of your interest on your mortgage. You can claim proportionally on your electric usage and gas etc.
That's why I pay someone who knows these things.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 08:10:11 am
If you work from home did you know you can claim a proportion of your interest on your mortgage. You can claim proportionally on your electric usage and gas etc.
That's why I pay someone who knows these things.

I know that from this forum, though different people work out how much their office expenses out in different ways.  But rather than fanny about with gas/electric/mortgage calculations, I've claimed for £10 per week which I think is more than fair in the tax man's favour.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: mikethechamois on February 12, 2009, 08:46:40 am
be very carefull how you claim as using your home as a place of work

if you dont do it right you can be hit for capital gains tax when you sell

offsetting a portion of your mortgage re payments is not a good idea

c&r accept that a portion of your bills goes towards running your business as you are a smallbusiness without seperate office facilities

any amount they deem as reasonable they will accept

so £10 a month towards your household bills is acceptable

if you have a seperate office you can claim for depreciation on the fixtures and fitting on that room but again they have to deem it as reasonable

but claiming part of the mortgage and council tax for that room will make it a business premises and you will be taxed on that part of your home when you sell as its a capital gain

i think it would be  agood idea if this forum had a seperate section for wc business matters

as a sole trader your tax returns are straight forward

i keep my books on line with the tax office and everything is then done automaticaly

once you start subbing out/employing then an accountants not a bad idea, a good accountant can save you from all kinds of difficulties as well as saving you money

business link, details from your local chamber of commerce or job centre, do brilliant courses paid for by the government

the tax office also do free courses on tax matters

both excellant courses ......................very infomative
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: macmac on February 12, 2009, 01:11:21 pm
Just an afterthought...

Remember for your average sole trading window cleaner; tax is fairly simple. 

You have your Turnover and your Expenses.  You deduct your Expenses from your Turnover and what is left is called your Profit.

You're taxed on your Profit.

There's no magic wands that an accountant has that can reduce the amount of profit you've earned and as long as you know what your expenses are, what's the problem?

Tosh

Can all purchases i.e. consumables & equipment/tools be claimed 100% in the same year. I was led to beleive tools/equipment should be wrote down over more than 1 year ( abit like you used to have to do with a van) ?

Tony
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 02:47:45 pm
Tony, I believe this to be the case if you buy something that's expensive; I don't know what the threshold is; though I read £1K recently by someone on this forum.

Apart from my vehicle, I've never bought any single item of window cleaning over 1K, so I've never looked into it.

Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: macmac on February 12, 2009, 02:55:14 pm
Tony, I believe this to be the case if you buy something that's expensive; I don't know what the threshold is; though I read £1K recently by someone on this forum.

Apart from my vehicle, I've never bought any single item of window cleaning over 1K, so I've never looked into it.



I think the threashold is 250 quid. trouble is, for me thinking is no good. It's all these little things added up that if you get investigated you could end up owing money!! :'(

One example, my chartered accountant says a "bought round" is NOT tax deductable as you are only buying good will. Then I read others on here who have claimed the full amount of their "good will". So, who is right? If it's my accountant then many on here will owe unpaid tax + any fines + interest?

Tony

Tony
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 03:17:50 pm
Tony,

I remember recently reading an article in the papers about a restaraunt reviewer.

This guy eats in posh restaraunts, then writes about it, and a magazine pays him for his written articles.

Now is the food he eats in the restaraunt an expense?

Well, the food writer reckoned it was, so did his accountant; so it was submitted as an expense.

Subsequently he was investigated and the tax man decided that because the food he ate had a dual purpose (you have to eat to live), he couldn't claim it as an expense.

So in this instance the accountant was wrong!  I think when it comes to the 'nitty gritty' of certain stuff, there's no clear right or wrong; but what you can justify using your common sense.

I'll take a trip down to the libarary and the facts on Capital Expenses and how they apply to window cleaners; I'll do this next Monday.

Oh, and I reckon your accountant is wrong with regards to purchasing work from other window cleaners; that's got to be an legitimate expense!
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: macmac on February 12, 2009, 07:36:04 pm
Tony,

I remember recently reading an article in the papers about a restaraunt reviewer.

This guy eats in posh restaraunts, then writes about it, and a magazine pays him for his written articles.

Now is the food he eats in the restaraunt an expense?

Well, the food writer reckoned it was, so did his accountant; so it was submitted as an expense.

Subsequently he was investigated and the tax man decided that because the food he ate had a dual purpose (you have to eat to live), he couldn't claim it as an expense.

So in this instance the accountant was wrong!  I think when it comes to the 'nitty gritty' of certain stuff, there's no clear right or wrong; but what you can justify using your common sense.

I'll take a trip down to the libarary and the facts on Capital Expenses and how they apply to window cleaners; I'll do this next Monday.

Oh, and I reckon your accountant is wrong with regards to purchasing work from other window cleaners; that's got to be an legitimate expense!

If he was wrong will i be able to claim tax back? It was about 4.5 years back when I bought this work & 3.5 years when that years accounts were submitted.

Anyone?

Tony
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Feen on February 12, 2009, 07:50:14 pm
Can't help with specifics, but I remember my accountant telling me last year that if I bought a new van in the year 08-09 the rules had changed and I could claim all in one year if it suited me, rather than writing it down by 25% per year. If this is the case, surely you could claim equipment to any value if it suited you?
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: macmac on February 12, 2009, 07:58:35 pm
Can't help with specifics, but I remember my accountant telling me last year that if I bought a new van in the year 08-09 the rules had changed and I could claim all in one year if it suited me, rather than writing it down by 25% per year. If this is the case, surely you could claim equipment to any value if it suited you?

I think there is a lower limit for some reason ???

Did you get your slx?

Tony
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Feen on February 12, 2009, 08:02:30 pm
Can't help with specifics, but I remember my accountant telling me last year that if I bought a new van in the year 08-09 the rules had changed and I could claim all in one year if it suited me, rather than writing it down by 25% per year. If this is the case, surely you could claim equipment to any value if it suited you?

I think there is a lower limit for some reason ???

Did you get your slx?

Tony
Yeah on Tuesday. Had 2 hours with it in the snow this morning. Hoping for more time tomorrow. First impressions are "it's so light" ! Definitely a step forward, as is the wagtail flipper.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 08:28:36 pm

If he was wrong will i be able to claim tax back? It was about 4.5 years back when I bought this work & 3.5 years when that years accounts were submitted.

Anyone?

Tony

Tony,

He was definately wrong.  You could spend money on Market Research and claim that back as a legitimate expense; FACT; I've been reading about it in a Daily Telegraph tax book in the library (but for reference only; so I couldn't take it out).  Market research must be more intangible than buying a round; so that's GOT TO BE an allowable expense.

When it comes to no clear defined rules about stuff, people often argue about 'the spirit of the regulation'; and when it comes to tax, if you spend money on your business, as long as it's within the 'spirit' - the ethos - of the rules, then you should be okay to claim it back; within certain parameters; in accordance with the regulations.

But I don't know about claiming back stuff from over four-years-ago; maybe you should give the tax man a call; or just do it anyway and argue the point if you ever get investigated?
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: dai on February 12, 2009, 08:35:27 pm

If he was wrong will i be able to claim tax back? It was about 4.5 years back when I bought this work & 3.5 years when that years accounts were submitted.

Anyone?

Tony

If you paid 5 grand for your round 4 years ago, and sold it in 20 years time for 25 grand, I bet the tax man would want his share of it.


Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 08:47:52 pm

If he was wrong will i be able to claim tax back? It was about 4.5 years back when I bought this work & 3.5 years when that years accounts were submitted.

Anyone?

Tony

If you paid 5 grand for your round 4 years ago, and sold it in 20 years time for 25 grand, I bet the tax man would want his share of it.



Dai,

That's called Capital Gains; it would be difficult to work out exactly, but the profit from the sale would just count as turnover and be added to your normal window cleaning turnover and treated the same for tax purposes.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: dai on February 12, 2009, 08:51:37 pm

If he was wrong will i be able to claim tax back? It was about 4.5 years back when I bought this work & 3.5 years when that years accounts were submitted.

Anyone?

Tony

If you paid 5 grand for your round 4 years ago, and sold it in 20 years time for 25 grand, I bet the tax man would want his share of it.



Dai,

That's called Capital Gains; it would be difficult to work out exactly, but the profit from the sale would just count as turnover and be added to your normal window cleaning turnover and treated the same for tax purposes.

Yes I'm sure, even if you ditched half the original round, built the rest up yourself, and was only selling goodwill.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 08:56:57 pm

If he was wrong will i be able to claim tax back? It was about 4.5 years back when I bought this work & 3.5 years when that years accounts were submitted.

Anyone?

Tony

If you paid 5 grand for your round 4 years ago, and sold it in 20 years time for 25 grand, I bet the tax man would want his share of it.



Dai,

That's called Capital Gains; it would be difficult to work out exactly, but the profit from the sale would just count as turnover and be added to your normal window cleaning turnover and treated the same for tax purposes.

Yes I'm sure, even if you ditched half the original round, built the rest up yourself, and was only selling goodwill.

No actually, it's quite simple; if you buy a round, say for £100, you would count the £100 towards your expenses.

Then in X amount of years time, you sell some of your round, say for £1000, then that £1000 counts as PROFIT which you're taxed on.

The two transactions are totally seperate and each are counted as individual.

Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 09:01:40 pm
No actually, it's quite simple; if you buy a round, say for £100, you would count the £100 towards your expenses.

Then in X amount of years time, you sell some of your round, say for £1000, then that £1000 counts as PROFIT which you're taxed on.

The two transactions are totally seperate and each are counted as individual.


Given this train of thought, it really is obvious that if you buy a round, then it can without a doubt be classed as an expense!
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: dai on February 12, 2009, 09:10:21 pm
No actually, it's quite simple; if you buy a round, say for £100, you would count the £100 towards your expenses.

Then in X amount of years time, you sell some of your round, say for £1000, then that £1000 counts as PROFIT which you're taxed on.

The two transactions are totally seperate and each are counted as individual.


Given this train of thought, it really is obvious that if you buy a round, then it can without a doubt be classed as an expense!
But what if you didn't claim it as an expense to start off with? And what if you claimed it was your pension fund?
I know a guy who sold his house to himself, moved out and bought another one, and classed the sale proceeds as part of his pension fund. That was allowed.
Title: Re: doing tax return
Post by: Tosh on February 12, 2009, 09:18:24 pm
No actually, it's quite simple; if you buy a round, say for £100, you would count the £100 towards your expenses.

Then in X amount of years time, you sell some of your round, say for £1000, then that £1000 counts as PROFIT which you're taxed on.

The two transactions are totally seperate and each are counted as individual.


Given this train of thought, it really is obvious that if you buy a round, then it can without a doubt be classed as an expense!
But what if you didn't claim it as an expense to start off with? And what if you claimed it was your pension fund?
I know a guy who sold his house to himself, moved out and bought another one, and classed the sale proceeds as part of his pension fund. That was allowed.

Dai, I don't know about that, but if you sell part of your window cleaning business, then that surely must count towards your turnover and treated - after expenses - as profit; which is taxable!