Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: williamx on February 06, 2009, 11:59:07 am
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The other topic has been locked.
As a result of this the SLWCN has to push Councils for ALL to be licensed as it is totally unfair on licensed window cleaners.
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And if you are sucessful then its equally unfair on the window cleaners who don't want a licence and have never used one.
If the Police are so worried about the many thousands of window cleaners who are carrying out crimimal activites, why don't they do their job and arrest them?
Its easy really, Mrs McJones arrives home from work and her house has been broken into.
Pc McPlod comes along and asks her who her window cleaner is? he then goes and arrests him, job done and another dirty crimimal is behind bars.
But is this window cleaner innocent? (free the 5000) what about the plumber/electrician/washing machine repairman or the other traders who have been INSIDE her house, and are not licenced (most window cleaners never go inside their customers homes).
Surely in a fair sociaty, every worker should be licenced?.
How many staff who work on tills have pocketed some of the money?
How many workers in the office have not taken the odd bit of supplies and equipment.
It has even happened in the "house of commons" a MP fiddled his expenses, maybe they should all be licenced?.
A licence WILL NOT stop a crook, if someone is willing to break the law and go to prison, do you think he will be deterred by a piece of paper, you will say that it stops him from getting into the trade, but what about the crooks who have not been caught, they have a clean record and they can have a licence and freedom to carry on their activites.
There are already laws in place to stop the dole boys and crooks, why use another by-law to stop something that a simple phone call will do.
Your final argument is that having a licence will increase the prices that window cleaner are charging, but will it? what about the semi retired who just want some pin money? they still won't increase their prices and some customers will not pay more.
Instead of trying to get the whole country licenced, why not educate the population to use traders who are registed to pay income tax, the inland revenue can issue a card that says you are registered and legal.
Educate the population to telephone the benefits agency and inland revenue and the police on anyone they know is breaking the law.
How many dole boys will have the nerve to go out working when they know that at least 10 people are informing on them.
How many house breakers will be able to sell their goods if instead of people buying them at your local,
they instead phoned the police?.
Now you get the ones who say "I'm not a grass" but would you be happy if it was your home or your mothers house and nobody took any action?.
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I ve got mixed feelings on this one. Can only see one major advantage in removing those who claim the dole whilst working.
Joe public I dont think generally care who cleans their windows, or if the person doing its on the dole. I might be wrong on that.
I wouldnt really want to pay for a licence, why should I as its just another tax, but I think that you should be able to demonstrate to the Local Authoritys that you have adequate insurance, and pay your National Insurance, and tax, at the very least.
They could issue a badge or something that you can flash If asked, and I would happily pay for the cost of a badge, but not, as I suspect someone would be rubbing their hands together because it generates more income, an inflated charge for such a thing.
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what i don't get is this: From reading the other thread it said that the window cleaners that had NO licence got caught,But then applied for a licence>got licence>carried on working ::)
Know this is plain stupid. It seems to me that go about your window cleaning as normal then if you get caught quickly apply for a licence.
I think if you have no licence then you get caught there should be something like a 2 month wait for licence review.
But then this is just my opinion.
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The council tax arrears issue proves that it's nothing to do with preventing dole people from working, just another money grabbing tax... if they were serious about stopping house theft, they'd issue licences to drive transit vans late at night, licences to wear hoodies in residential areas!
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The other topic has been locked.
As a result of this the SLWCN has to push Councils for ALL to be licensed as it is totally unfair on licensed window cleaners.
.
And if you are sucessful then its equally unfair on the window cleaners who don't want a licence and have never used one.
If the Police are so worried about the many thousands of window cleaners who are carrying out crimimal activites, why don't they do their job and arrest them?
Its easy really, Mrs McJones arrives home from work and her house has been broken into.
Pc McPlod comes along and asks her who her window cleaner is? he then goes and arrests him, job done and another dirty crimimal is behind bars.
But is this window cleaner innocent? (free the 5000) what about the plumber/electrician/washing machine repairman or the other traders who have been INSIDE her house, and are not licenced (most window cleaners never go inside their customers homes).
Surely in a fair sociaty, every worker should be licenced?.
How many staff who work on tills have pocketed some of the money?
How many workers in the office have not taken the odd bit of supplies and equipment.
It has even happened in the "house of commons" a MP fiddled his expenses, maybe they should all be licenced?.
A licence WILL NOT stop a crook, if someone is willing to break the law and go to prison, do you think he will be deterred by a piece of paper, you will say that it stops him from getting into the trade, but what about the crooks who have not been caught, they have a clean record and they can have a licence and freedom to carry on their activites.
There are already laws in place to stop the dole boys and crooks, why use another by-law to stop something that a simple phone call will do.
Your final argument is that having a licence will increase the prices that window cleaner are charging, but will it? what about the semi retired who just want some pin money? they still won't increase their prices and some customers will not pay more.
Instead of trying to get the whole country licenced, why not educate the population to use traders who are registed to pay income tax, the inland revenue can issue a card that says you are registered and legal.
Educate the population to telephone the benefits agency and inland revenue and the police on anyone they know is breaking the law.
How many dole boys will have the nerve to go out working when they know that at least 10 people are informing on them.
How many house breakers will be able to sell their goods if instead of people buying them at your local,
they instead phoned the police?.
Now you get the ones who say "I'm not a grass" but would you be happy if it was your home or your mothers house and nobody took any action?.
Absolutely 100% agree with everything you've written.
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i dont understand why the other topic was locked
freedom of speech and a frank exchange of views is essential for a democracy to work
i dont agree witha lot of things that are said on here but ill still defend that persons right to say it
so come on da you could have got a proper gauge of feelings had you let the topic run
do we want to be licenced...................yes
anything that helps legit wcs differentiate from the chancers
do we want the system that scotland has..............not on your life
it comes as no surprise that it was the police that pushed for licencing and had to involve the council to make it legal
the whole thing has been setup as a crime prevention tool and is going to be very difficult now to undo and setup as a means to protect the consumer from the real threats of using rogue traders.
the best way forward is for the remainder of the uk to pre empt all this nonsense and license ourselves to our own set of standards and then ask the council to back us by reccomending to householders they use wcs licenced under this scheme
trading standards have a safe contractor scheme that covers all traders but its very expensive and i cant really see the benifit as the public are not very aware of it
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Hi there, Find it strange that the Govt' hasn't really followed through on licences, as its a way of keeping TAX tabs on self employed ppl. Over here (Guurmany) ANY business must be registered b4 it even deals with the first custy contact.
Just thought I would stick my 2d worth :)
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you have 12 weeks to inform the authorities of a new business,
thats not the problem
the problem we have here is the number of window cleaners who have no intention of registering as it would affect their benefits ,they are also uninsured
they are a real threat to the legit wc as they are only looking for a bit of extra cash and work for ridiculously low rates that a legit wc cant compete with and run a business................householders take advantage and resent paying a proper rate..............we want these idiots out of the game
hence gettinghouseholders to only employ genuine legitiate proffesional wcs
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The police should fine the house holders then: for being a accomplice to commit a crime ;D ;D
only joking ;D
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many a true word is said in jest
householders should be fined for employing a trader that is working illegally
i think the law already exists but the law is knowingly employing etc
if wcs hd to prove they were legit to get a licence them anyone employing an unlicenced wc would risk breaking the law
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er, what? I don't want a license! And who appointed da services to push councils for a license!
Stay up there in scotland please! We dont want licensing here thank you very much!
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drwindows
When you say we,is that we as in you and your company or are you speaking for others. If so who ?
As i would maybe ,, like to see a licence in place but under the right type of management
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drwindows
When you say we,is that we as in you and your company or are you speaking for others. If so who ?
As i would maybe ,, like to see a licence in place but under the right type of management
was about to say the samething
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As always it's a case of putting the cart before the horse.
Assume that licences become mandatory:
The PURPOSE of introducing licences should be to prevent the illegal operations of people who take advantage of the simplicity of the job to augment their benefits/avoid paying taxes/case joints for burglary etc.
The EFFECT of introducing licences will be to restrict the legitimate business people who obey the rules anyway. It WILL NOT have any effect on anyone who doesn't want to join, or doesn't even know there is a requirement to be licenced.
DO YOU REALLY THINK that the councils/police etc are going to patrol the streets looking for unlicenced window cleaners? Even if they found some, there would be no power of arrest as it wouldn't be a felony, so the unlicensed wc would give false credentials, promise to be a good boy then be straight back up his ladder the minute the official's back was turned.
Licensing will only work if it is rigorously enforced.
How many unlicensed vehicles are there on the road? Even with the zeal that the police apply to the 'soft' option to enhance their reporting rate there are milllions of untaxed cars. If they can't control that situation do you really think there's any chance of enforcing licences for window cleaners?
The only ones with licences will be the likes of you and me, the law abiding, tax paying easy targets.
We'll pay the fees, put up with intrusive scrutiny and Joe Bloggs invisible window cleaner will continue blythley with his unregulated, uninsured, untaxed benefit cheating lifestyle exactly as he has always done.
SO TELL ME: WHAT'S THE POINT OF BEING LICENCED?
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Firstly can I say I have no intentions to play any part of licensing in England.
William totally agree with what you are saying.
Probably what should happen in England is a tax enforcement officer who is employed to catch out those who work illegally in all trades and con people.
Or why don't the DWP come up with system on line where you can input someone who you think is working illegally. This could be done by entering the persons car reg number or a phone number. So anyone who canvassed your area type in the contact number.
If the person is legit then fair play to the person if not then it helps protect your run which you took years building up.
Just a thought.
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Doug
The DWP have quite a few methods for the public to report benefit fraud.
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/campaigns/benefit-thieves/
Why should it only be England that has inland revenue enforcement officer, why cannot Scotland - Wales and Northern Ireland also have one.
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It appears that the main reason many are wanting the trade to be licensed is to get rid of a lot of the cheap competition, is it not?
I think we all get wound up by the dole cheats who do the job for peanuts, and con society in general, but its not restricted to window cleaners only is it.
The inference regarding house thefts and casing joints is frankly insulting. Is this what the public really think some of us are like?
Mine are happy to give me their security codes to enter, leave the back open for me, even in areas that are being targetted for thefts.
Man if some scum are using this job to case houses, I would weep, but if their thieves,then their thieves aint they?
Maybe im too naive.
And as said if the authorities arent going to enforce/persue it is pointless really.
Taxi drivers tried to force mini cab drivers to become licensed I believe as the number of illegals was wrecking their trade, did they not.
They did this primarily because of the unfair competition, not because of the threats to the female passengers of rape and assault. What worked in their favour was that high profile attacks by some of these dodgy mini cab drivers meant that the authorities had to take some action and impose licensing. Cant say that applies to us guys really.
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William,
In Scotland the DWP already have an input. Any person applying for a license their details are forwarding to the DWP. What I am also hearing as well those caught without licenses also their information will be passed on so it is already happening here.
What I am also hearing there is a bill that will go through Scottish Parlaiment where a civilain officer will now have the powers to fine people but that is in the pipe line. Also Trading Standards are getting more prowers, one for you guys to watch but that is up to the FED to be involved.
What they are doing is part of cold calling which they will have more powers. One of which is leaflet dropping where they check the details and pass on the relevant information.
There is a lot of change going on which we are finding out but cannot comment if this is also including England, Wales etc..
I'm just keeping an eye on meetings this end.
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your right william
ive never been a grass...............it goes against the grain
but im getting incensed now, i know from my self emloyed mates in the building trade that if i went to the benefits office i wouldnt be eligible for dole
ive always worked ,if i sat round i would be housed and given benifits worth about £15000 a year, how many windows do we have to clean to clear that kind of money after tax etc
its our contributions that keeps the benefit system afloat
and to add insult to injury they continue to take money from our pockets by undercutting us
rant over
im not a grass but im getting to the stage now where i would report them
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the thing is doug are they going to fine the householder as well or just the unlicensed wc
i know its off topic but they gave up prosecuting prostitutes and started prosecuting their punters
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Only the law abiding window cleaner would apply for a licence.
As someone else said, a benefits fraudster, who can go to prison is hardly likely to give a toss about a fine for not having a w/ cleaning licence.
Armed robbers don't bother to apply for gun licences either.
It would just be a load of paperwork and an extra tax and extra revenue for the council.
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your not wrong paul
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i agree there should be a review if a w/c is cought without a license, some cant get the license or want, simply because the have a past criminal record, those that are cought, without a criminal record usualy
will not apply for the license simply becouse they are declaring that they are self employed, meaning no more rent or hand outs from the dole, and most of them are doing this as it is cash in the back hib, they will undercut you, as they have no overheads, the license is a very powerful tool, no one will ever aproach you and say hey m8 your working my area, they look and see my licence that is worn at all times, this stops them in there tracks as they dont want to bring any attention to them selfs, ;D
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The dole boys have no conscience about having the tax and ni you and I have paid, transferred into their bank account and paid to their landlords..... so answer me why the hell should we have a conscience about reporting them for stealing from us??? Grass them up, grass everyone you know is signing on and bleeding the system dry it's the right thing to do. You can do it anonimously online if you feel threatened.
I also think that licensing will make these filthy little pieces of scum easier to identify as they will have to provide proof of self employment to get a license so I am for it if only for this reason.
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we cant rely on others to sort this
we need take their regs and report them...............its our living thats under threat
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i havent read all this as i cant be ar but you can have a card that says you have ins
a fwc member has to send ins details to get in and keep it up or else also you have to do a basic
hse day course so there you have it join the fwc and get theshow on the road the licence
may work in jock land but down here you can burgle all the houses you like
you wont end in jail unless you happen to do a judges
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i agree there should be a review if a w/c is cought without a license, some cant get the license or want, simply because the have a past criminal record, those that are cought, without a criminal record usualy
will not apply for the license simply becouse they are declaring that they are self employed, meaning no more rent or hand outs from the dole, and most of them are doing this as it is cash in the back hib, they will undercut you, as they have no overheads, the license is a very powerful tool, no one will ever aproach you and say hey m8 your working my area, they look and see my licence that is worn at all times, this stops them in there tracks as they dont want to bring any attention to them selfs, ;D
With the greatest respect to you. I have been window cleaning in the posh part of Birmingham 8) for a long time and have never ever met someone who thought he owned the area. Also why would some dole window cleaner back off. The police don't even turn up to burglaries so why on earth would they turn out to a report of an unlicensed window cleaner at large. Either you are making this up or Dundee is a strange place.
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Mind you having listened to some of Gordon Brown's comments, I can believe anything.
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paul i told you as it happened, i dont need to make things up, round here they do think they own the area they work in, and the licensed does stop any ilegal w/c , we must have the best police in the country as our police turns up in mins,
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Mind you having listened to some of Gordon Brown's comments, I can believe anything.
lmao
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Well they don't here. Jouk I am not knocking you but I think as a lot of people know Scotland and England are different countries, a different legal, social, educational, moral system, we are only united because James 6 or similar took over England.
Its like comparing France and New Zealand. The only thing Scotland and England have is, is a similar language as long as they are not from Glasgow ;D
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i am Glaswegian, and i have both eyes ;D
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i am Glaswegian, and i have both eyes ;D
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Should we have licensing.......one word......yes
I bet we'd lose quite a few off here if it came in.
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Should we have licensing.......one word......yes
I bet we'd lose quite a few off here if it came in.
Totally agree that we should, will stop alot of players, on here on not I dont know but I know full well if they inforced it with a heavey fine, prison, then the scumbags (not all are scumbags, just some) would stop are start to do it legally, it would increase window cleaning prices and get rid of a lot of very dodgy people in this field of work, and we all have seen a few.
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It is already against the law to work while claiming the dole, with penaltys of fines and imprisionment, this has not stopped the dole boys from working.
At the moment the Police-Inland Revenue and DSS operate road blocks, they target vans mainly, the police check that the van is taxed-insured and the driver is licenced, the Inland Revenue check that the diesel is not red and the DSS check the driver is not claming benefits.
So we ALREADY have the right agencys in place who at times do their job by catching these crooks, so why do we want to pay for a extra tax?.
In Dougs original post, it was pointed out that the police had stopped a few unlicenced window cleaners, who then applied for licences, well these were not dole boys they just didn't have a licence.
If there are dole boys working on your patch and you feel your business is suffering, just pick up the phone and report them, if the benefit office don't follow it up then report them to your local MP to forward the complaint onto the Minster responsable.
If a licence scheme is adaopted in the uk it will be very hard to repeal it.
Also the cost will be in the hundreds of pound to have one, at the moment the average cost in Scotland is £80 per year and you have to buy 3 years in advance, but these council do not enforce them, they don't go around the streets checking every window cleaners is licenced, if they did, then the cost of the licenced will sky rocket.
So whats the point of a licence if its not enforceable?
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Also the cost will be in the hundreds of pound to have one, at the moment the average cost in Scotland is £80 per year and you have to buy 3 years in advance, but these council do not enforce them, they don't go around the streets checking every window cleaners is licenced, if they did, then the cost of the licenced will sky rocket.
So whats the point of a licence if its not enforceable?
William,
The enforcement of the license lays solely with the Police however Council have Enforcement Officers but their powers are limited. In each Police Force there is a couple of Licensing Police Officers whose remit is doing the Criminal Record Checks on applicants etc.. I think their function is soley a desk job however in areas like Falkirk, East Ayrshire, Renfrewshire the Enforcement Officer and Licensing Police Officer have been out together and prosecuted unlicensed window cleaners.
One area that seems to be targeted by unmarked Police cars is Renfrewshire where there has now been a 120% increase in licensed window cleaners and a lot refused licenses. The SLWCN liased with the Police some time back and I have to say the licensing police officer is very good at her job.
Whereas in some divisions like in all trades of work you will get people who think it is not their job but this is soon changing as we also have a few meetings lined up with Chief Of Police.
Under the remit of the Civic Act the Police are the ones that should enforce which each Police force has a division to do it. The Council's remit should be get the message accross to the public only to use licensed window cleaners. One area they should clamp down on is City Centres, Shopping Malls in making sure the shops only use licensed trades, if not they should be fined.
The system is out there it is just making people do their job in their remit which unfortunately as many of us know some employees feel it is beneath them to do these tasks.
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the question is doug
are they fining householders for employing unlicensed wcs
if not..............why not
it would be the quickest and most effective way of stopping unlicenced wcs
one well publicised case would make an awfull lot of people check that their wc is legit
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If its the Polices job to enforce then the householders should be nicked as well.
A lot of householders know that the window cleaner is not licenced and they should be charged with helping a criminal with a crime.
Like you said, nick a few and the rest will fall into line.
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i just dont get this thread maybe its a eng /scots thing you have it we dont but you moan on
about red tape then ask for more let evry one get on with there own thing as i have said
if your so woried join the fwc show your legit as some one else has said the tax mans there to catch doles but they cant be ars
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I have thought about this long and hard.
It works both ways in the argument.
What is needed is a standard licence for all traders working on or in peoples houses/businesses.
You would have to show a card to each client before you were taken on + you would have to show a badge/sticker on the veh.
The licence would show you were legit in tax and insurance etc.
It would make policeing easier. Nabourhood watch people could report anyone who did not have a sticker/badge on their veh. The card presented on the door would stop dole cheets.
One system for all costing less to police and making the dole cheets etc have to think twice before stepping out.
It would also stop people from being ripped of with bodge jobs from some guy who comes into the area claiming to be this trade or that then ripping people off etc.
Rant over!
At the end of the day what are we all worried about......I think it the tax dodgers.