Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Philip Hanson on March 22, 2005, 09:45:24 pm
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Finally, after much deliberation and postponment, the Health and Safety Commission has announced that the New Work at Height Regulations (which implement The European Temporary Work at Height Directive in Britain) have been laid before parliment and will come into force on
6th April 2005
This is only 2 weeks from now, and has come as something of a surprise!
The draft regulations have been available for many months at the HSE website at this address:
www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf (http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf)
The final version will become available soon at the HSE website, and PWC Magazine (http://www.professionalwindowcleaner.co.uk) will be reporting on any changes made as a result of the consultation with industry. However, there is not expected to be material differences between the drafts and final regs.
You can see what has changed from the draft to the final regs here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/hsc/meetings/2004/121004/c04114c.pdf (http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/hsc/meetings/2004/121004/c04114c.pd)
You'll notice there is almost no change to Schedule 6 (Which deals with ladders) other than an additional regulation for stepladders.
The proposal document specifically states that window cleaning is an industry on which the new regs will have a significant impact (page 124 of the proposal doc)
In the coming months, we'll be seeing examples of how these new (and much tougher) regulations will be enforced both by local authorities and the HSE itself.
-Philip
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Philip, having done the homework - what exactly is being "enforced" in relation to window cleaners?
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I just read through the bit about ladders and it said
A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by -
securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends
Effective anti-slip or other effective stability device or
any other arrangement of equivilant effectiveness.
Page 28 the the second link phil posted.
So it looks like this means we have to use LSD's to continue to use ladder.
Paul
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After extensive phone calls and written letters the WAHD does NOT mean that ladders cannot be used.
It's so simple.
If they have to be used which they must be for some jobs, window cleaning included, then they have to be used in the safest manner possible.
That means that if a safety item is available, then it has to be used.
It also mean that any uneccessary risks such as over reaching whilst up a ladder is not allowed and the ladder must be repositioned to reach the place required.
It's all about reducing risk and reducing accidents and in the work place, if using ladders is the cheap option at the expense of safety, then that company is in breach of the rules but only if other options other than a ladder are a viable option. i.e. 10 minutes with two staff with a ladder as opposed to a whole day and thousands in costs with a platform. Business still has to run and be viable. Imagine if ladders couldn't be used anywhere at anytime?
It's NOT about the abolition of ladders.
If anyone wants to argue this point, then I'm happy to argue it.
Sorry to write that but I do think some WFP's are over pushing what the WAHD is about and having said that, I am waiting for the day that I never go up a ladder again but please let it be honest with regards the WAHD.
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Well said Ross, I couldn't agree more, though interpretations of the regs by local officers will vary.
Ladders will continue to be used, and in much the same way as before, I don't think it will have a lot of impact on domestic window cleaners unless you are involved in an accident that requires a claim on your public liability.
Site work and an increasing amount of commercial work will become more insistant on full implementation of the regs.
Some places will insist on ladders NOT being used, that is already happening of course.
I am now a WFP'er, but I never say it is as a direct result of new H & S regs, but I do say it has had an impact, particularly as I do almost all commercial stuff.
It's going to be very interesting to see just how this all plays out in the coming months, I wonder how much impact it is really going to have on us all.....
Ian
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It's all about reducing risk and reducing accidents and in the work place, if using ladders is the cheap option at the expense of safety, then that company is in breach of the rules but only if other options other than a ladder are a viable option.
i.e. 10 minutes with two staff with a ladder as opposed to a whole day and thousands in costs with a platform. Business still has to run and be viable.
This is a good way of putting it Ross. The regs actually say that if the alternative to work at height that is "reasonably practicable" it should be used.
I doubt, for example, that anyone would say that it was practical to use a cherry picker to clean house windows. (and this is still working at height anyway)
The real question is whether its "reasonably practical" to use a pole system instead of ladders for most window cleaning tasks. The answer to this is not yes or no, because it depends on the individual circumstances. E.g. yes you might be able to use a pole system for building X. Y and Z, but for building A, B and C you can't. Its fine to use ladders then for A,B and C if you can justify it.
In truth, most commercial buildings are already being done, or can be done, using poles and the company's own H&S policy may well stipulate you can't clean windows from ladders. It doesn't matter a jot what the regs say in this case, if the building owner says "NO" then there's no choice! The building owner themself will probably enforce H&S on their own without the need for HSE involvement.
For residential work, its trickier. Its my opinion that this is where the regs will really bite for window cleaning. Is it possible to justify ladder use on residential? Is it "reasonably practicable" to clean residential windows with a pole system?
Again, it depends on the individual job. However, I have met some window cleaners who have the attitude that because they only do residential, they can continue to use ladders (with devices). In my opinion, this is not correct, and if they were asked to justify that to a HSE officer, they would not be able to.
I have read a number of articles about whether ladders could be justified on residential work, and some of the reasons that have been given just do not stand up to scrutiny. Things like WFP cant be used because it would be difficult to get hoses round to backs of houses, or that customers might object to the hoses trailing on the garden.
Anyone who has actually used WFP for domestics will know that these things are very rarely a problem. The fact is that window cleaners DO use WFP on domestic houses every day. How could they do so if it were impracticable? The HSE knows this, and I believe you'd have to come up with better reasons than "hoses on the garden" to justify working at height.
At the end of the day, each situation is different, and there will certainly be houses where ladders are the most practical method. We just have to be careful not to use blanket assumptions, like they're okay for ALL residential work
Sorry to write that but I do think some WFP's are over pushing what the WAHD is about
That's true, I have seen systems for sale with literature about how you need it because of the impending "Ladder Ban" and this is misleading. Remeber that ebay one?
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6730.0
-Philip
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I am pleased and relieved that I am not going to be at risk of conflict with the WAHD, but what I await with bated breath is the manner in which these regs are going to be enforced.
I cannot imagine that Health & Safety Officers will actively patrol housing estates hunting down evil, criminal ladder users ;D
But perhaps they will no longer turn a blind eye when they do see someone working off a ladder (not just window cleaners).
I would think it entirely possible that a couple of prosecutions in a town (and not just a ticking off and a, 'I'll throw the book at you next time laddie') would have a powerful knock on effect.
So perhaps it would not be necessary for them to cruise around housing estates?
It will also come down to how individual Officers interpret the regulations, I'm sure I have read on one of the forums a report to the effect that this will make a difference.
And of all the EU Countries, the UK always seems to be the one that enforces any EU directive to the letter if it can.
Change isn't a bad thing, and at least for us window cleaners we have a first rate alternative with WFP. H & S also affect the WFP user, but it is far easier to conform to.
Ian
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remember guys. The victorians used to put kids up chimneys to clean them. Didn't think anything of it. Now of course we would never expose any worker to such risks. Why did they do it? Answer: It was CHEAP!
I bet more people have died from falls than ever died going up chimneys.
In a few years people will look back at ladder use with the same amazement. They will not believe that we used to climb unsupported ladders. And for what vital purpose? Merely to clean a window!
"Why didn't they use a pole system?" people will ask.
The historian will reply, "Because they wanted to do it CHEAP!"
Times move on. Let's make sure that our industry moves with them.
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QUOTE REGULATIONS
"AVOID WORK AT HEIGHT WHERE THEY CAN"
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or maybe the Historian will answer...'because they'd only recently been made available to the masses, and in the early day's, people were suspicious of them.....people don't like change, even when it's for their own good ! '.....or some such thing..
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If a window cleaner who only does domestic work has a contract of agreement with each customer, and in it he has his health and saftey procedure, how can the HSE even be invloved??
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Hey duke, nice one ;)
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;) I think stuart,maybe if someone starts trying to make a claim of some sort,the lawyers may well try to bring them in ???I think thats a possible,you know what its like when things go wrong,people like chucking the book at you ::)
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remember guys. The victorians used to put kids up chimneys to clean them. Didn't think anything of it. Now of course we would never expose any worker to such risks. Why did they do it? Answer: It was CHEAP!
I bet more people have died from falls than ever died going up chimneys.
In a few years people will look back at ladder use with the same amazement. They will not believe that we used to climb unsupported ladders. And for what vital purpose? Merely to clean a window!
"Why didn't they use a pole system?" people will ask.
The historian will reply, "Because they wanted to do it CHEAP!"
1st point: WFPers say it costs the same as traditional, so how is traditional "cheap"
2nd point: If you have a contract with a customer, you take the risk of accidents on board, if its a risk, you dont do it
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;)I think stuart,maybe if someone starts trying to make a claim of some sort,the lawyers may well try to bring them in ???I think thats a possible,you know what its like when things go wrong,people like chucking the book at you ::)
Terry, you are spot on as usual. The lawyers eyes are everywhere.
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I personally cant believe the HSE is even interested in the average window cleaner.
The problems with working at heights come in for cradle workers or absailers, or commercial work when someone gets the lawyers in.
Find me an example of a window cleaner dying as a result of domestic work, or a case of lawyers even being involved, you will be hard pressed im sure .
This forum is swamped with WFPers who, in order to jusify their expence are shouting about the new regulations, as if ladders will end up in museums. Its not a balanced view. It does not represent the majority. It does not represent the new HSE regulations. It is scaremainering (sic)
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I window cleaned with a squeegee for 20yrs and went over to water fed pole a year ago, with great apprehension. :-\ I had questions like will it do as good a job? Will I be able to do as much? The answer to both is yes, :) and the benefit of not having to climb ladders so often. I personally don’t have to justify the expense, as there are many advantages apart from the safety point
Don’t get me wrong I love doing squeegee work, have you noticed people watching you when you clean a window, as there is something magical about seeing the water glide away and then a beautifully finished window.
But If I had to make a choice sorry I would not go back
Roy
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;)The fact is houses or not you can still fall,fall on your head and your dead,does not have to be a great height
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Find me an example of a window cleaner dying as a result of domestic work, or a case of lawyers even being involved, you will be hard pressed im sure .
11 years ago i did a 1 yr course to become a HSE officer, it was very interesting, I am a carpenter by trade and have a HSE in building studies, i wanted to go down the Safety Officer route of the building game, thus did this HSE course
I still speak with 2 people who were on the same course, a few weeks ago i told him about my WFP window cleaning company and mentioned the WaH directive and he smirked and said its a cracking idea to tighten the issues up, and i mentioned that i mainly do domestic cleaning,
he told me the year before last the HSE says 13 window cleaners died and just under 30000 (yes 30 THOUSAND) had a serious accident
it shocked me
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'Cheaper' I think you will find is in relation to the cost of setting up with ladders and squeegee etc, far, far cheaper than WFP.
I almost never carp on about the safety angle of WFP, no need, its self evident.
for me it is because it is easier and quicker and the overall finish is better as a result of the way the frames get cleaned as well.
Now you may be a paragon of a cleaner and scrub frames and windows till t hey gleam, good for you, you are a better man than I was, I cleaned the windows and the sills, frames if I thought they needed it or if it was requested.
All is now done regardless.
Now I also have to say it is also easier to do a cr*p job, but this is where the skill of the operator comes into play, it may be an easier, quicker job, but great care has to be taken.
Next month I am sure we will all be holding our breath to see just how enforcement is going to be implemented.
The coming months are going to be interesting.
Oh, and I don't think a contract between you and a domestic customer will hold any weight with Health and safety :-\ And your insurance company sure as eggs are eggs won't be interested in that one!
Perhaps it will be as some of you say, and they won't be interested in domestic one man bands....except, that is exactly what the majority of window cleaners are, one man bands cleaning mostly domestic houses.
Mind how you go ;)
Ian
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Holy CR*P :o 30,000 :o
And some of us are griping about the tightening up of the regs, those figures are horrendous :'(
Small wonder they are doing as they are doing (or at least hoping to)
Ian
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he told me the year before last the HSE says 13 window cleaners died and just under 30000 (yes 30 THOUSAND) had a serious accident
I doubt that!
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he told me the year before last the HSE says 13 window cleaners died and just under 30000 (yes 30 THOUSAND) had a serious accident
it shocked me
Shocked me too; that you could believe those figures.
For a start this site says there's approximately 26,000 window cleaners in the UK:
http://www.connexions.gov.uk/jobs4u/summary.cfm?id=501
I'm not going to insult your intelligence by explaining why then, it's not possible for 30,000 window cleaners to have had a serious injury in one year.
I've also did this thread not so long ago:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6411.msg47467#msg47467
Which I think showed that Fishermen had the No 1 UKs most dangerous job and window cleaners didn't even feature in the top ten!
I even doubt if ten window cleaners do die a year from falls. Where's the statistics? It's just a figure banded about. Window cleaners dying from falls do make the news. A few months ago an Irish window cleaner fell and died in Dublin. If ten die a year, I should hear of one at least once every two months.
I agree window cleaning has its risks. So does driving, crossing roads and eating saturated fats. But if it's done sensibly; then the risk is greatly decreased.
Your friend has obviously got his facts wrong.
Regards.
Tosh.
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If it was THAT dangerous.....I reckon I'd be safer in Iraq....
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Well if we take it that there are 26,000 window cleaners and out of them 30,000 had serious accidents - blimey - 4,000 must have just got rid of their crutches; then fell straight off their ladders AGAIN.
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Find me an example of a window cleaner dying as a result of domestic work, or a case of lawyers even being involved, you will be hard pressed im sure .
Click here:
R & T Times Article (http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/archive/rttarchive/display.var.25371.0.cleaner_killed_in_mystery_fall.php)
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yeah, but 69 for cripes sake....perhaps a little unwise.....
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i know of 2 who died from falls in wiltshire in the last 18 months
the figures sounded high, BUT why should i doublt him ?? ?? ?? ?
he had nothing to gain from the story ?? ?? ?? ??
only 26000 window cleaners, i find that a little on the low side, my little town must have 30 that i know of
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maybe so...but why do I still hear...'We can't get a window Cleaner round here' ?....perhaps they're all pegging it faster than can be replaced.....ok, not funny...but the statistics might be a tad manipulated.....seems the figure of fatalities is about 11 a year. Don't get me wrong, that's still unacceptable...and if, as to believe, it's mainly ladder related bad decisions....then bring on the pole.
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Please just give the WFP versus trad thing a rest. Please.
It seems that at every oportunity the same old thing comes up.
Yes, WFP is everything. Message understood.
13 people were killed last year by old grannies and old men in electric cars.
1300 injured.
Ban them too.
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A guy in Aberdeen died 2 years ago and I know of several "Retirees" due to falls. The danger when doing domestic is that you will fall off the ladder and injure/kill the customer, their children or their pet. If that happened you're insurance is going to want to know what reasonable measures you took to prevent the accident. Since we now have published guidelines we will need to follow them.
Cases of causing death may also result in imprisonment for corporate manslaughter.
Saying that no-one has been sued yet is not an argument. If we keep exposing our customers to this risk it WILL happen. It's just a matter of time.
Don't get me wrong, I still use a ladder sometimes. But from April 6th onwards I will only climb if I have a suitable stability device fitted. I am checking them out as we speak.
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THE BIG QUESTION
Will it be simply no longer acceptable to just lean the ladder against the building and begin working from it?... safety equipment... securing fixed or tied.
Andy
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PLEASE PLEASE read and understand WAHD correctly.
IT DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE THAT LADDERS CANNOT BE USED.
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Hurray for ladders !
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hello there,
ok, obviously people that have resourced up with either WFP or cherrypickers etc are going to market themselves as being able to 'DO THE JOB'
that is why they are in business to earn money,
thats why we are all in business thats why the window cleaners with ladders are in business to earn money.
regarding the legislation, the legislation needs to be read and then interpretated by each individual operator, to carry out your risk assessment, before working at height, irrespective of the task. whether it be window cleaning, painting a house, repairing a gutter, or even putting up a tv aerial.
the first place that HSE will concentrate the efforts is the commercial sector, and especially construction, and if you have any experience of working in the commercial sector already, then you will already know that any company worth their money, have already implemented WAHD.
lets be honest in say 5-10 years time, wfp, or pole access only will be more common to the domestic customer.
WAHD doesnt really affect the cradle and abseilers, cause they are already and have been doing what the HSE is asking for, for a long time.
it wont be long before 3 and 4 storey houses, have certified eyebolts!!!
and, we all knew that THIS was coming, it isnt as if it has been widespread knowledge for some time now.
so i say concentrate on earning a living, doing it as safely as possible, remember "practicably possible" this is an open area for interpretation and if you ask the HSE a straight question, THEY WILL NOT GIVE YOU A STRAIGHT ANSWER.
everybody have a great easter
regards
martin
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it wont be long before 3 and 4 storey houses, have certified eyebolts!!!
Hi Martin,
You are right Martin. The HSE puts too much emphasis on Commercial sector making their rules unworkable for the domestic cleaner.
Like you, I thought the eyebolts would be an excellent solution. However, after checking out the costs of maintaining them (annual testing) it cost more than I was charging to clean the windows. FAR, FAR MORE!
I, like many other pole operators, have some windows that still need a ladder for access to roofs etc. Eyebolts would be excellent. I could go out and buy a pack of ten for £79 with all the fittings. Ten minutes with a cordless drill and they're ready. But, even if the householder agrees to this, the HSE will not allow my employees to use them without certified testing which would cost me £117+ per house per year. Totally unreasonable.
The HSE needs to let contractors install and test eyebolts themselves. After all, some work cannot be done with a pole. Satallite dishes, etc. ANd not all locations allow for cherry picker. Scaffolding is going to add £100's to the costs.
I am therefore left with a dilemma, use a stability device (which is a hassle & much less safe than eyebolts) or bin the ladders (not really viable).
I would like to see the Fed representing us better. Pressuring the HSE for a realistic set of guidelines for domestic work. Perhaps we can arrange to have all the members write a personal letter to the head of the HSE. 1000 envelopes arriving on his desk may make him take notice of our plight.
Be careful out there!
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but self testing eye bolts WILL NOT work, as that would put the resposiblity on the worker again, who will just want the window cleaned and not bother with the eye bolt
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Cleaner killed in mystery fall
A RETIRED window cleaner who could not give up the job, died when he fell off his ladder on Valentine's Day.
Southwark Coroner's Court heard how Peter Gosney, 69, of Ingram Road, Dartford, liked to keep in touch with some of his old customers by calling round with his window cleaning equipment.
He had been cleaning windows at a house in Ardgowan Road, Lewisham, when a passer-by found him collapsed semi-conscious on the ground.
He never regained consciousness, and died a month later after his family agreed to stop life-saving treatment following blood transfusion complications.
His daughter, Julia Walford, told the court her father had been an extremely fit man and had never been known to fall off a ladder.
Following the accident, Mr Gosney was taken to Lewisham Hospital, and transferred to King's College Hospital to treat his head injuries.
King's College consultant Dr Nadim Naeeme said: “Mr Gosney arrived in a deep coma. As his treatment progressed there had been hopes he might recover from his injuries, but further complications relating to blood transfusions developed and eventually it was agreed further life-saving treatment should be discontinued.”
He died from head injuries and multiple organ failure. The reason for his fall remains a mystery.
Southwark coroner Selena Lynch recorded a verdict of accidental death.
This is the best you can come up with!!
This chap wasnt a professional, he did it to keep in touch with his friends.
I doubt any of us here are 69, we are professional, we know what we are doing, we choose the safest working conditions with regard to our equipment.
Again i ask you to find me a case of a professional window cleaner dying as a result of a fall on domestic work, it will be the commercial sector that will be inspected on, i do not believe the regs apply to residential
The HSE will first of all concentrate on businesses who employ a number of workers. They will be the first ones who will feel the pinch of any new "rules".
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I would say that I view my self as a professional window cleaner. And I think the problem is we do such a repetitive job, that sometimes we are all guilty of a bit of lack of concentration. I remember putting up a ladder to a window once and to get the right angle put the feet under a leafy plant. I got to the top started to clean and the ladder slipped about 2 inches and stopped on the dry path. When I moved the leaves to look it was wet and slimy under it on the path. Accidents do happen and if your at height when it does its going to hurt, my brother in-law has bee in a wheelchair for the last 30rs through a fall.
So every time you go up just double check and do all you can to be safe.
Roy
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but self testing eye bolts WILL NOT work, as that would put the resposiblity on the worker again, who will just want the window cleaned and not bother with the eye bolt
You are right about that. I was meaning that the employer could test them rather than paying a third party to do it.
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hi there,
when i used to quote for window cleaning as part of office contracts we would insist on seeing the eyebolt certification, so many places do have them, but half the time th e occupiers of the building dont know what they are for or when they were tested.
oene about the repetitive nature of the work, is that the HSE have used the repitition argument, and lack of concentration to discourage the use of ladders.
regards
martin
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Someone wrote earlier that 30000 serious injuries occur to window cleaners every year
still speak with 2 people who were on the same course, a few weeks ago i told him about my WFP window cleaning company and mentioned the WaH directive and he smirked and said its a cracking idea to tighten the issues up, and i mentioned that i mainly do domestic cleaning,
he told me the year before last the HSE says 13 window cleaners died and just under 30000 (yes 30 THOUSAND) had a serious accident
Odd that and maybe a symptom of knowing someone in the know who knows these things and this seems to be a problem - not knowing exactly where the info comes from.
The HSE state between 2 and 7 die each year and 20 to 30 suffer major injuries. The problem is that there are no accurate figures for lesser injuries for obvious reasons.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf#search='HSEwindow%20cleaning'
Another interesting fact sheet:-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/overall/fatl0203.pdf
and .....
http://www.totalaccess.co.uk/~sa_webapp/run.asp?page=772
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/c03068.htm
I still don't like ladders though.
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According to the Feds site, the HSE were going to test out all ladder stability devices hence giving a definitive yes or no to avaivable equipment. As we're only two weeks away from implementation, does anyone know if the results are available. Every one seems to equate stability devices to mean "the stopper" but what about disc feet, articulated feet, splayed ladders, etc
Cheers Nick
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It's right here. Click on the PDFs for details of the reports.
www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/dy_rldr.htm (http://www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/dy_rldr.htm)
Only trouble is, they don't name the devices tested. You can figure it out though from the photos in the third PDF.
The top stabiliser is not named and I don't recognise it from it's picture. I'll try to upload it...
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Maybe cherry pickers ore the future.
Just seen this on Autotrader
CLICK HERE (http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/WWW/plant_search.asp?keywords=cherry+picker&min_pr=75&max_pr=&mileage=&agerange=&postcode=de45+1fr&miles=1500&max_records=50&source=0&photo=1&sort=3&search=SEARCH)
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Ross,
Top set of links that, puts it in perspective doesn't it?
Not that I have any intentions of using a ladder if I can possibly help it though.
I might even....no, I WILL, copy and print most of that first document, well ok
I'll probably print out the whole thing ;D Much easier reading too than the big
one.
But Ross; Don't get yourself too worked up by the headless chicken brigade!!!
I don't include myself in that group, my own personal viewpoint is that domestic window cleaners
will probably only really be affected in the event of an insurance claim.
Those working in the commercial sector will have to pay closer
and closer attention to health and safety, and as time passes that
will filter to domestic users.
I bet there will be some interesting newspaper headlines though ;)
I do enjoy the wildly differing views that are generated in this debate ;D
Ian
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Thanks for that Steve, wading my way through it now. Cheers Nick
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Hi Stuart
Deaths due to falling from cherry pickers are higher than deaths from w/c's falling.
Seriously.
I'll find the info and post it.
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Oh dear,
guess i'll just go and sign on then
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What will be the significance of the legislation to the customer ( domestic) if he or she continues to use a window cleaner with a ladder if a local company is available & has invested in WFP kit?. Could they be held responsible if an accident occured?. Surely if they were, this is what would do for the window cleaner with his ladder. It is the availability of a viable alternative which seems to be the issue & what or who is responsible if that alternative is not utilized.
I know it's not nice, but as an invester in WFP kit, I would promote this factor if it saw off my ladder using competition. Business is business. After all, the kit is available to all. If they choose not to invest, that is their choice. It is this aspect, I believe that will improve the image & the professionalism of window cleaning as a bucket from under the sink & a B&Q ladder will no longer be an option for those wishing to suplement their dole money & their incapacity benifit.
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Negligence has to be proved before anyone can be held responsible.
To prove negligence you would first have to prove it was a known risk where in there had been accidents in the past and that no steps had been taken to reduce the risk.
i.e. previous accidents involving similar equipment, similar circumstances and so on.
With regards a householder, they would not be expected to understand any implications regarding someone cleaning their windows. The understanding is the sole responsibility of the w/c as he is a w/c as w/c is his domain and job.
The w/c having had no real history of serious accidents cleaning windows (if he had - he would not be cleaning windows because he would have either stopped, or been too injured continue as a trade) would carry on.
Hence the reason why there is a problem with the HSE and self employed w/c's.
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i dont agree with simons post im affraid! I think a wfp user in a domestic setting is more likely to lose work to a conventional cleaner than the other way round regs or no regs!! Im getting kitted out with wfp but under no illusion that it will be easy to persuade the customers.
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Hi Mark
I totally agree with you. Last week we picked up a job from a private property where the w/c had just gone over to poles.
The windows had been done 2 days before with WFP's and the owner wanted us to come round and do them again with traditional methods which we did.
The windows were actually spotless and it seemed pointless to us to be doing them again but that was what the customer wanted.
I think that over time WFP's will become more and more accepted and it's just right now that some customers need to see a ladder, cloths and so on.
I don't know about the rest of the country but around here (Brighton, East Sussex), WFP's are still very unusual.
I do think that bit by bit the new regs will take hold over the coming years simply because the EU is determined that they will and then WFP's will be the normal. Also, I think bit by bit too, more and more w/c's will be going over to WFP's anyway.
I think at some point the HSE or someone will bring a high profile case against something involving ladders, whether w/c or painters or something that will start the change big time.
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Can someone write out in plain English what the new laws will be exactly,Ive read so much on this subject my head is spinning,Ive read stuff from trade mags,read all sorts of bumph from HSE AND ALSO FROM THIS FORUM.how about the fed writing something we all will be able to understand,it may convince me to finally sign the dotted line on the cheque Ive written out for membership,after meeting THE FED rep at NEC inMarch. I invested money in a pole system 3 years ago so Im not to bothered,but some jobs its impossible for me to get around the back off.hedges over grown,to far around the back to run hoses eg large gardens in mid terraced council houses.my question is would HSEleave a many thousands of pounds system + a van unlocked in his local area
which is quite rough.Ithink if I was stopped by HSE heres the equipment show me how you want it done and i will do it that way,I havent had a complaint since about Nov,that was a bird had done a whopsy just after I had cleaned it
bet my customers are going to love me dragging hoses through their kitchens
that have just been draged through there lawn and garden,the only way I can gain access to the backs of some houses.
I think tommorrow I will become a member of the EEC Parliment (which I know nothing about) cus Im sure Iwould make a better Parlimentarenian than they would a window cleaner.
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The bottom line as far as I can tell.
Stuff the WAHD.
It is all so muddled that I doubt in truth if in the coming years that it'll make any difference.
Carry on as you are. I will.
Cheers