Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: paul saunders on January 24, 2009, 02:49:27 pm

Title: WFP users
Post by: paul saunders on January 24, 2009, 02:49:27 pm: Been taliking to a WFP user today and he told me what his hourly running costs were. To say I was gobsmacked is an understatement. :o
Can I ask you what your hourly running costs are.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Dean Taberner on January 24, 2009, 03:05:47 pm: Not much,

Just the set up cost and then the price of resin and filters every 2 months.

Dean
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: mlscontractcleaner on January 24, 2009, 03:06:36 pm: They may be higher than the running costs of a traditional window cleaner but their takings should be much higher too, far more than the difference in running costs anyway.

It costs more, it takes time to maintain, it takes time each evening to fill and maybe recharge batteries but I'll tell you this, I wouldn't go back to ladders, mops and squeegies, ever.

Any window cleaner who wishes to keep up and overtake the competition MUST invest in WFP; and in the words of Rafa Benitez, that's a fact ;)
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: NWH on January 24, 2009, 08:11:17 pm: Quote from: bbdl on January 24, 2009, 02:49:27 pm
Been taliking to a WFP user today and he told me what his hourly running costs were. To say I was gobsmacked is an understatement. :o
Can I ask you what your hourly running costs are.
What did he tell you then.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 08:13:28 pm: That NWH is a cowboy ;D
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: NWH on January 24, 2009, 08:34:25 pm: YeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaa lol. ;D
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: wightsurf on January 24, 2009, 08:39:39 pm: I think it's all down to how far you want to go with window cleaning.
I started out with the basics but now i find myself investing in more and more all the time.
The more i can offer compared to others i think puts me ahead of the game.
I Hope ;D
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: brett walker on January 24, 2009, 09:16:34 pm: Once youve got the initial start up costs for wfp paid for its just a matter of paying for resin and filters etc, which in my opinion are very low because of the amount i can earn with wfp

i fine i invest in quality poles and brushes etc to enable me to work faster and with better results its all down to as much as you want to spend, it can coat you as little as £5oo diy or the ionics 2 million ;D

bbdl im just down the road from you if i can help you with wfp in any way give me an email mate

regards

Brett
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 09:51:05 pm: Quote from: NWH on January 24, 2009, 08:34:25 pm
YeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaa lol. ;D

(http://www.partypants.co.uk/fancy-dress-site-images/cowboy-costume-outfit.jpg)
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 24, 2009, 09:53:35 pm: you never buy new poles then? or fuel for a hot system? or pay any water bills? or replace varistreams, or upgrade to a larger tank, or need a new 100m of minibore because it wore out?

How long have you been going? a week, or a fortnight?

I factor in £2 a job, and i probably average thirteen jobs a day. So a ten pound job for me, achieves the same as a trad man doing it for eight. If his price is also ten then he has made more money than me, but i will be faster of course.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: macmac on January 24, 2009, 10:05:43 pm: Quote from: bbdl on January 24, 2009, 02:49:27 pm
Been taliking to a WFP user today and he told me what his hourly running costs were. To say I was gobsmacked is an understatement. :o
Can I ask you what your hourly running costs are.

It depends on many factors like-

Did he diy or shop at ionics?

Did he buy a good s/hand van for 3500 or spend 12k on a new one?

Is his system RO or DI only & is he aware of the most economical filtering methods that would apply to his situation?

To name a few

Also-

Is he trying to scare you off wfp to keep his competition limited? ;)

Tony
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 10:20:06 pm: Try operating without them see how much you earn then.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: macmac on January 24, 2009, 10:22:20 pm: Quote from: Ewan on January 24, 2009, 10:18:55 pm
Vehicles and systems are capital expenditure

There not running or operational cost.

You don't say ::), WOW, you're cleverer than I first thought :o

The only way this guy can have huge hourley running costs is by including the above examples!
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: NWH on January 24, 2009, 10:22:55 pm: Quote from: Matt @ Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 10:20:06 pm
Try operating without them see how much you earn then.
WFP if used properly will give your business a massive increase in profit compared to Trad.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 10:24:02 pm: I know ???
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: paul saunders on January 24, 2009, 10:28:01 pm: Quote from: NWH on January 24, 2009, 08:11:17 pm
Quote from: bbdl on January 24, 2009, 02:49:27 pm
Been taliking to a WFP user today and he told me what his hourly running costs were. To say I was gobsmacked is an understatement. :o
Can I ask you what your hourly running costs are.
What did he tell you then.
£10, per hour
Quote from: brett walker on January 24, 2009, 09:16:34 pm

bbdl im just down the road from you if i can help you with wfp in any way give me an email mate

regards

Brett
Cheers Brett, I'll keep that in mind ;)
Quote from: macmac™ on January 24, 2009, 10:05:43 pm
Quote from: bbdl on January 24, 2009, 02:49:27 pm
Been taliking to a WFP user today and he told me what his hourly running costs were. To say I was gobsmacked is an understatement. :o
Can I ask you what your hourly running costs are.

It depends on many factors like-

Did he diy or shop at ionics?
Bought his system .......... but I don't know what it is

Did he buy a good s/hand van for 3500 or spend 12k on a new one?
He is leasing his van

Is his system RO or DI only & is he aware of the most economical filtering methods that would apply to his situation?
He as been WFP for a good few years so I would imagine that he knows what he is doing by now. ;)

To name a few

Also-

Is he trying to scare you off wfp to keep his competition limited? ;)
No, I know him well, he would not do that .............. he's a good person.

Tony
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 10:36:28 pm: Ewan, that isnt what he asked.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 24, 2009, 10:41:42 pm: What about ladders, scrims,rubber,fairy liquid,t-bars,sleeves etc etc,this all adds up too.
Wfp running costs aren't that bad.Profits are higher,safer and can clean in worse weather conditions! Just my opinion!
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 10:43:10 pm: Stick to the topic, whatever you think, otherwise you know exactly how those threads go that you participate in.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 24, 2009, 10:47:31 pm: I dread to think what my hourly running costs are! Would probably realise that £5 houses are a waste of time!
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 24, 2009, 10:56:32 pm: capital expenditure is factored into running costs via something called depreciation.

depreciation is a running cost.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 24, 2009, 11:01:35 pm: In which case the man who has a 15k van and ionics systems depreciation is far greater than that of the man with 1k van and diy system.Wasn't the point of the question relating to water,poles,resin and filters etc?.If i work in one street all day with my cheap set up then my costs are far less than the man with the more expensive set who drives to each house.Its a rather broad answer to the question really.I'd like to know the answer though!
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 24, 2009, 11:06:51 pm: BTW,to the person who posted the initial question,what were the wfp users running costs?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 24, 2009, 11:14:52 pm: costs of goods or services sold includes running costs which in turn includes depreciation.

depreciation is a running cost. This is a fact not an opinion.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: mark dew on January 24, 2009, 11:17:37 pm: i divided last years expenditure by the amount of jobs i did and came up with around £3.30 per job.
This is with an average job price of 13.37. So 25%.
This included no real big purchases. Just running costs and a spell in the garage for the van.
Quite an eye opener really. I think that me as a business needs to put at least half and maybe double that percentage to one side to be able to grow and invest in new equipment.
Out of my earnings for last year, the running costs accounted for about 10% of turnover.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 24, 2009, 11:30:10 pm: At the end of the tax year if you take your expenses and divide by the amount of units cleaned,that would give you a fair idea of costs per clean wouldn't it?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Oakley Windows on January 25, 2009, 07:17:58 am: Yes.

Simplicity itself.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: macmac on January 25, 2009, 10:26:33 am: Quote from: Ewan on January 24, 2009, 10:50:49 pm
Quote from: Matt @ Oakley Windows on January 24, 2009, 10:43:10 pm
Stick to the topic, whatever you think, otherwise you know exactly how those threads go that you participate in.

OK Matt, I see now its diy accounting.

Fair enough macmac can explain that, otherwise he will continue to throw his dummy out the pram, if I correct him. ;D

I've deleted my post, it was below the belt & childish ;)

Tony
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Mike 108 on January 25, 2009, 10:56:31 am: It was probably what a lot of us were thinking though!
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: macmac on January 25, 2009, 11:43:19 am: Quote from: Mike 108 on January 25, 2009, 10:56:31 am
It was probably what a lot of us were thinking though!

Maybe but I have to give him credit, he's consistant & we all have differing oppinions. Allthough we never agree, some of his points are valid. The trouble is for me, what ewan sees as an oppertunity to forcibly display intelect, most would know it as common sense & assume others would too. However, he does bring (for me anyway) entertainment to the forum & for that reason I like to read his posts. I can admit if I do something wrong & that was below the belt even for me. (I'm sure he likes me realy)

Tony
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Klean07 on January 25, 2009, 11:49:24 am: Think everyones forgot things like insurance for your van, public liability insurance, tax, mot, maintainance of van/car.fuel, water, advertising, etc etc.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 25, 2009, 12:28:27 pm: some good points, nice to see macmac backing off.

Just to clarify for you ewan if you buy a brand new van at 18k and after a year it is worth 14 k then that 4k counts as a running cost, but not the total purchase price of 18k.

divide the 4k by number of jobs or £17.50 per day (days worked 5 weeks 46). So if there were 17 jobs then this alone would be £1 per job.

Someone who didn't have a new van wouldn't have this expense so they could argue that it's an artificially created expense but it exists for some and not for others.

Just out of interest what sort of van and system have you got and what's the depreciation like?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 12:39:05 pm: are you including the 4k depreciation on top of the 50% first year capitol allowance that the inland revenue give you?That would be a 9k first year expense on a 18k van.Surely its one or the other?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 25, 2009, 05:07:51 pm: I don't in the least think that you've got anything to prove. To own a vehicle with a wfp system inside it is hardly that brilliant an achievement, it's just that this is a window cleaning site, and to listen to the pontificating of an expert who doesn't even own a system is a bit rich.

Many of the topics start with someone poseing a problem or putting up a pic of something real in their lives.We then pick it to pieces with varying degrees of helpfullness, the original poster gets to have his say back, or even ambush you on another thread.In nearly all cases thought it's accepted that the people offering up insights are genuine. To be a regular on this site and be an imposter is a tragedy.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 05:22:49 pm: Who was that relating to?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: paul saunders on January 25, 2009, 05:26:00 pm: ::)43 posts ................ and not one of you has said what your houly running costs are. ::)
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 05:28:10 pm: How much did the wfp user you were talking to say his running costs were?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: ftp on January 25, 2009, 05:28:28 pm: Spot on Discount.

Remember Davo? Could post plenty about marketing and how we should all run our businesses but admitted he had never cleaned a window in his life - kinda bugs you in the end. I can see some amazing similarities too can't you?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 25, 2009, 05:31:46 pm: I gave you £2 a job, another £3.30 a job.

If you are that bothered work it out for yourself like we had to.I doubt many will bother helping you in future.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 05:32:52 pm: Was that to me?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: ftp on January 25, 2009, 05:35:41 pm: My total costs this year are going to be in excess of £6000! No van purchase, no monthly payments just day to day running, new poles and setting up a guttersucker system. This does include my van running costs with nothing bigger than a service and a couple of tyres.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 05:42:56 pm: My tax return expenditure is £6590.05. Not inc renault Trafic and Ionics system.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 25, 2009, 05:50:09 pm: 46 weeks times 5 days times 37 hours is 8510. Divide this into any total yearly cost for an approximate running cost rate per hour.

£6,000 divided by 8510 is 70p an hour.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 05:52:56 pm: If i clean 4/5 houses an hour then my cost per house is rather minimal isn't it? Surely it doesn't matter what the running costs are,its the profit that matters.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 25, 2009, 05:54:06 pm: The only cost you can't really account for is time you spend at night fixing the system or produceing pure water. If you have to spend a couple of hours in the shed(or on the internet getting stuff) and cost your time at the usual hourly rate then this can add up too.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: ftp on January 25, 2009, 05:55:59 pm: And that's every working hour, get rained off and the hourly rate could go higher. Have a new clutch on your van and kiss goodbye to up to £600
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 05:56:17 pm: Exactly.I had Friday off because my pump gave up on my second house.My third pump since the beginning of December actually. Could have carried on working Friday but i don't want to go up ladders anymore!
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 25, 2009, 05:57:07 pm: I agree with that, that's why there is no real financial difference between ionics and diy despite people thinking there is. What would the difference be 5p a job?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: ftp on January 25, 2009, 05:59:54 pm: ??? could be a big difference if it's all on tick, brand new and costing an extra couple of hundred a month to run.

You should work for Ionics Discount - as a sales rep.
What's stopping you from getting a brand new spangly system - 5p a job?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 06:00:15 pm: Ionics is to boost the persons ego with other cleaners by leaving the back doors of the van open,and a decent resale value i suppose! A mate of mine bought a 650 ltr system off ebay for 2k (can't remember the make) and its superb!
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 25, 2009, 06:10:29 pm: I hope you hold your nose and pull apropriate faces when you look in his van.

Would it help if you took your pump off on cold nights or at least covered it?
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: luther1 on January 25, 2009, 06:14:55 pm: Frost hasn't been the problem,one packed up,one leaked and the other was pulsing. Another thing is that i go through the 30" colour change di cannister every 3-4 weeks and they are expensive,so on Friday i plumbed in an 11ltr di cannister to save a few bob!
Considering my ppm is 006 before resin i thought the time it lasted was horrendous.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Clive McDonald on January 26, 2009, 07:19:21 am: Quote from: Ewan on January 25, 2009, 06:12:50 pm
Quote from: Discount Window Cleaning on January 25, 2009, 05:50:09 pm
46 weeks times 5 days times 37 hours is 8510. Divide this into any total yearly cost for an approximate running cost rate per hour.

£6,000 divided by 8510 is 70p an hour.

???

sorry out by a factor of 5, so the answer is £3.50 ph in this example.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Paul Coleman on January 26, 2009, 08:02:48 am: Quote from: Ewan on January 24, 2009, 10:18:55 pm
Vehicles and systems are capital expenditure

There not running or operational cost.

For tax purposes - yes. They still need to be factored in to the hourly rate you charge though. I'm still paying £200 a month loan + interest for my van and setup. Also still repaying credit cards for other bits. I wouldn't let £300 a month go out without making some allowance for it in my pricing. Even if you were fortunate enough to pay cash for the above, it's still prudent to put some money aside for the next lot and to factor that in too.
Title: Re: WFP users
Post by: Paul Coleman on January 26, 2009, 08:26:09 am: Assuming a 35 hour average week (at 52 weeks a year). No idea how close this is as there are many aspects to work over and above the actual cleaning.

Anyway, including absolutely everything (including the TOTAL cost of the van and system which I'm still repaying) I came to £6.68 per hour. There's all sorts of stuff in that including a couple of one day WFP related courses, paper for my printer etc etc. Many of these costs would have been incurred if cleaning from a ladder to aren't specifically WFP- 6 related. I took the average over three years from switching to WFP. Over 5 years, the figure would drop. I'm not going to start calculating differences between capital/non-capital items.